Is todays education wrong??

[Runum]

We've sold about 600 kits to some early adopters in the past few months and just did a more official soft-launch of the product last week -- we still have some improvements to make to the website, product video, etc. We will start more heavy marketing in the next few weeks.

We have spent much of the past year working with various parents, private schools, summer camps, homeschooling families, local technology groups and other educational organizations around the country to get input on the product and curriculum, and the feedback and reactions we gotten from parents, educators and kids has been tremendous.

Over the next year or so, we'll be working on a cost-reduced version of the kit to make it more accessible to families and educational groups in lower-income areas and we'll likely be expanding our business model (subscription services for parents, online curriculum for schools, etc).

If anyone is interested in checking it out or providing feedback (again, we still have some improvements coming on the website), here it is:

http://www.ReadySetSTEM.com

And if anyone has kids 13+ and is interested in buying one, shoot me a PM and I'll give you a 20% discount code you can use...

And if you just want to support us, feel free to follow us on Facebook (/ReadySetSTEM) or Twitter (@ReadySetSTEM)!

Impressive! I wish you well.

 

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[TheGrind]

I wouldn't say it's wrong. It works for some people, and for others it doesn't.

If you're on this forum, odds are it doesn't work for you.

 

[devine]

The product video will hopefully accomplish most of this... Thanks for the input!

Make sure it will.
Be successful with your product.

 

[Guest34764]

Uh... Thanks dad...

LOL this brightened up my day.

 

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[HoneyBadger]

There seems to be hint in this thread that an area schools are failing is by not teaching programming. Even if they wanted to push it out on a nation-wide initiative where would they find all the teachers? Programmers right now have plenty of employment opportunities that pay far more than a teaching salary ever will.

I began learning programming on my own when I was around 11 years old but by the time I got to high school my school actually had a couple programming courses so I took them anyways. They were filled to the brim with kids who just picked the class so they could play on the computers. The teacher who actually seemed to at least understand basic programming taught everything in EXTREMELY slow bits because he had to match the flow of the class. It took a whole year to teach the class what they needed to make a VERY basic text based calculator as their end of term project. That is something you could learn in an evening sitting down with a book/some online tutorials even if it is your first time coding.

I don't know if I am fully expressing what I am trying to but I am not as optimistic as others on programming courses for kids after watching/hearing the whining day after day about how 'hard' it was, the end of week ritual of students copying source code from the few who did it, and the overall snail pace of the course compared to any other STEM course I took (we did two lessons a day in my math courses for comparison).

There is a certain level of persistance/grinding that comes with learning software which I think could be hard for teachers and the current way curriculum is set up in schools to be able to handle.

 

[HoneyBadger]

Yeah my post is actually agreeing with what your product/stance is. I believe the self-instructing/self-teaching route is the way to go. Currently - and I can only speak from my experiences, classes are not set up to have the students be the one 'running the show' which is what I was referring to when I said the current curriculum doesn't really mesh with it. That is not to say it can't happen I was just pointing out that there is more at play than just "nope we're not teaching programming".

As an aside: I said there was a hint that one area schools are failing was by not instructing programming. Don't know where you got all that panacea feeling from. Another thing - when did I say kids are not able to learn programming in school?

 

[devine]

There seems to be hint in this thread that an area schools are failing is by not teaching programming. Even if they wanted to push it out on a nation-wide initiative where would they find all the teachers? Programmers right now have plenty of employment opportunities that pay far more than a teaching salary ever will.

I began learning programming on my own when I was around 11 years old but by the time I got to high school my school actually had a couple programming courses so I took them anyways. They were filled to the brim with kids who just picked the class so they could play on the computers. The teacher who actually seemed to at least understand basic programming taught everything in EXTREMELY slow bits because he had to match the flow of the class. It took a whole year to teach the class what they needed to make a VERY basic text based calculator as their end of term project. That is something you could learn in an evening sitting down with a book/some online tutorials even if it is your first time coding.

I don't know if I am fully expressing what I am trying to but I am not as optimistic as others on programming courses for kids after watching/hearing the whining day after day about how 'hard' it was, the end of week ritual of students copying source code from the few who did it, and the overall snail pace of the course compared to any other STEM course I took (we did two lessons a day in my math courses for comparison).

There is a certain level of persistance/grinding that comes with learning software which I think could be hard for teachers and the current way curriculum is set up in schools to be able to handle.

Additional subjects have no impact on pupil's future efficiency and development of right qualities. The idea of "better subjects" is a based on hope that learning more relevant and usable information wll increase productivity and lead a person to success.
This is dead wrong, because fundamental subjects produce students with multi-faceted set of skills and better orientation in any field.

Why doesn't it work? Because those fundamental subjects are taught in isolation from spheres they are applied within.
This is why "Will I ever use it" and "I never needed any of that in my whole life" are the most common phrases about education. People just have no clue how it's appliable in real world, while in reality fundamental subjects are appliable everywhere. People are just taught improper things in context of these subjects.

Regarding programming and other non-fundamental subjects being taught at schools - this is a kind of system we will see in countries like China, because this is exactly what produces a convenient unit for a mechanism like what their country primarily is. China doesn't focus on innovations, they don't need people to think, they need them to serve, and current trends demand more single-purpose specialists. US partially goes the same way, which is highly visible by their educational process.

 

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[RussRussman18]

You are not taught financial literacy in US schools. I tried to go out of my way to learn about economics in school, but all the classes like financial math and entrepreneurship (all electives btw, you could easily go through school learning nothing about taxes, supply and demand or the job market) were either on a crappy computer program or taught by a football coach and you learned nothing.

Also agree that it KILLS creativity. I only recently realized it but I literally have probably 1% of the creativity I had when i went into public school in the second grade. Throughout school, you are penalized for doing anything more than 1 or 2 ways, or write in any other format besides the one the teacher prefers.

The biggest thing that got to me in school though, was that the teachers can pretty much say or do whatever they want to you as long as they don't hit you or cuss at you. And you are pressured into believing it's okay

 

[devine]

Neither you should be taught any of that in school at all.
I find it hilarious when people are hungry to learn how to get the most from the world, when they have nothing to offer to this world.

 

[Runum]

You are not taught financial literacy in US schools. I tried to go out of my way to learn about economics in school, but all the classes like financial math and entrepreneurship (all electives btw, you could easily go through school learning nothing about taxes, supply and demand or the job market) were either on a crappy computer program or taught by a football coach and you learned nothing.

Also agree that it KILLS creativity. I only recently realized it but I literally have probably 1% of the creativity I had when i went into public school in the second grade. Throughout school, you are penalized for doing anything more than 1 or 2 ways, or write in any other format besides the one the teacher prefers.

The biggest thing that got to me in school though, was that the teachers can pretty much say or do whatever they want to you as long as they don't hit you or cuss at you. And you are pressured into believing it's okay

You seemed aware of what you wanted to learn. What stopped you from learning what you desired? No one stood in your way. You had multiple hours after school, the internet probably at school and at home, libraries, newspapers, etc. If you truly want to learn something why wait or blame others?

Edit: The thing is most people generalize and I understand. I agree the education system is a machine that is out of control, broken. It is sustained by federal and state politics and big business(Pearson). Generally everyone doesn't like it.

I can generalize too. I have managed an alternative high school class full of big talking students.

It seems to be that time of life. Some of the students are scared of their future, the unknowns. Those students rarely make a noise.

There are other students, mostly guys, that are full of themselves. They are going to be the next millionaire by 21. They are going to sign the major NFL contract at 18. They are going to get rich by breathing, all they need is an idea. They make a lot of noise wherever they go. All about attention.

I sat with those guys for 6 months with my own grand ideas of giving them a boost, a kick start. I showed them how to set up web sites. I demonstrated web research. I showed them REI. I supported any ideas they had. I spent my own resources backing them up.

100% of those guys quit. They were full of hot air. All talk. Someone called them on their BS and they couldn't ride it out. Mainly, because it wasn't instantaneous enough for them. I see them around town now, years later, working at Burger King and Walmart, still talking their shit.

Sometimes similar minded big talkers wind up here and still talk their shit. They may get some help and they STILL don't get anything done.

My challenge to you, quit looking at other people for your excuses. If you know where you want to be and what you want to learn then do it. Look at the face in the mirror and man up. Set the world on fire and show us all how it's done. We would love to cheer you on.

 

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[RussRussman18]

You seemed aware of what you wanted to learn. What stopped you from learning what you desired? No one stood in your way. You had multiple hours after school, the internet probably at school and at home, libraries, newspapers, etc. If you truly want to learn something why wait or blame others?

Edit: The thing is most people generalize and I understand. I agree the education system is a machine that is out of control, broken. It is sustained by federal and state politics and big business(Pearson). Generally everyone doesn't like it.

I can generalize too. I have managed an alternative high school class full of big talking students.

It seems to be that time of life. Some of the students are scared of their future, the unknowns. Those students rarely make a noise.

There are other students, mostly guys, that are full of themselves. They are going to be the next millionaire by 21. They are going to sign the major NFL contract at 18. They are going to get rich by breathing, all they need is an idea. They make a lot of noise wherever they go. All about attention.

I sat with those guys for 6 months with my own grand ideas of giving them a boost, a kick start. I showed them how to set up web sites. I demonstrated web research. I showed them REI. I supported any ideas they had. I spent my own resources backing them up.

100% of those guys quit. They were full of hot air. All talk. Someone called them on their BS and they couldn't ride it out. Mainly, because it wasn't instantaneous enough for them. I see them around town now, years later, working at Burger King and Walmart, still talking their shit.

Sometimes similar minded big talkers wind up here and still talk their shit. They may get some help and they STILL don't get anything done.

My challenge to you, quit looking at other people for your excuses. If you know where you want to be and what you want to learn then do it. Look at the face in the mirror and man up. Set the world on fire and show us all how it's done. We would love to cheer you on.

wasn't trying to make excuses. I did educate myself outside of school, I was just giving my opinion. I just think that financial literacy should be taught in school. It would actually be useful to most people, unlike learning how to properly write an evaluation of a novel.

looking back at my 11 years in the louisiana public school system, I see alot of 'fluff', and not alot of stuff that prepared me for life in today's america. it's not school's responsibility to teach me everything and make sure I succeed, but isn't the stated purpose of school to educate so you can apply what you learned to real life? You are pressured by the legal system to put your kids through (american) public school for at least 10 years (the least you can legally go to school afiak), 36 weeks a year, 5 days a week. That's alot of time that you are entrusting the system to educate your children and prepare them for work and life.

We went through school and took lots of tests about overspecialized subjects with no regard to the probability of the careers most of us would actually be getting. how often are we going to use education about biology? literature? the history of art? vs how often would we use education about finance, health, law, applied mathematics, etc etc.

I don't hold any spite towards my time at school. At least I learned lot of non-academic, social dynamics stuff there and made friends. But I don't hesitate to say that alot of my time there was wasted, the school poured alot of money into stuff that would never help us, and the whole system was more concerned with getting people's $$$ into college than anything else

 

[Jackflower93]

Wow... what fantastic information from you guys! To say one thing, and to simplify as much as I can, I am clearly not the only one that believes there needs to be fundamental changes. Thanks for your input, it's really helped me see things from several new perspectives.

One thing I have defiantly picked up on is the passion a lot of you feel about this subject like myself.

I've spent about two years and about $200K of my own cash (with a partner) building a product -- and a business -- aimed at teaching kids computer engineering (programming and electronics).

I also spend a lot of time helping schools (middle, high and college) design courses to teach kids the basics of engineering and how consumer devices are designed.

I will defiantly have a look at this!

 

[RussRussman18]

Wow... what fantastic information from you guys! To say one thing, and to simplify as much as I can, I am clearly not the only one that believes there needs to be fundamental changes. Thanks for your input, it's really helped me see things from several new perspectives.

One thing I have defiantly picked up on is the passion a lot of you feel about this subject like myself.



I will defiantly have a look at this!

I kind of feel like alot of the stuff wrong with high school was trickle down from the monopoly the college level has on being "prestigious" and "well paid" and "successful" + the factor of funding

I saw alot of people get treated like worthless trash because they weren't going to college, or were going to trade school

Nowadays HS is more like "college prep" with little to no branching curriculum paths for other choices

 

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[nebulus]

edit

 

[Runum]

I kind of feel like alot of the stuff wrong with high school was trickle down from the monopoly the college level has on being "prestigious" and "well paid" and "successful" + the factor of funding

I saw alot of people get treated like worthless trash because they weren't going to college, or were going to trade school

Nowadays HS is more like "college prep" with little to no branching curriculum paths for other choices

I do agree with you about HS prepping students for college. They do put pressure on the students to go to college. The schools are graded on college prep.

Also agree with you there is wasted time, from students and schools, both.

 

[Vigilante]

I do agree with you about HS prepping students from college. They do put pressure on the students to go to college. The schools are graded on college prep.

Also agree with you there is wasted time, from students and schools, both.

My kids high school counselors were not counselors. They were college admittance advisors. They tracked and published statistics of how many kids from that class were going on to college, where they were going, etc...

There were no other options. Their whole job was college admittance. The schools were measured based on how many kids from that graduating class went on to college.

Community college was an option. I think vocational schools were also tracked. However, we know that nationally :

• 50% of kids never attend their college freshman orientation (i.e. half of high school kids don't go to college) and

even more damning is that

• 50% of kids that start college NEVER FINISH COLLEGE

 

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[Runum]

My kids high school counselors were not counselors. They were college admittance advisors. They tracked and published statistics of how many kids from that class were going on to college, where they were going, etc...

There were no other options. Their whole job was college admittance. The schools were measured based on how many kids from that graduating class went on to college.

Community college was an option. I think vocational schools were also tracked. However, we know that nationally :

• 50% of kids never attend their college freshman orientation (i.e. half of high school kids don't go to college) and

even more damning is that

• 50% of kids that start college NEVER FINISH COLLEGE

Our experience with HS counselors was the same. They weren't very good when I was in HS but now their job description has changed, at least in my state. The counselors are responsible for campus administration and coordination of the mandated standardized tests. They go to a lot of training for that, off campus. They really don't have time to be a counselor any more.

My kid's HS experience was eye opening but we all survived.

 

[RussRussman18]

Neither you should be taught any of that in school at all.

please tell me what you think should be taught o wise one? more about how the mitochondria works in a ****ing frog?

not trying to get political, but maybe if people were taught economics in school, this presidential election wouldn't have us choosing between a sociopathic traitor, a trust fund baby boomer, and a cracked out commie pinko?

 

[Runum]

please tell me what you think should be taught o wise one? more about how the mitochondria works in a ****ing frog?

not trying to get political, but maybe if people were taught economics in school, this presidential election wouldn't have us choosing between a sociopathic traitor, a trust fund baby boomer, and a cracked out commie pinko?

This is where you kinda cross the line and you know it. In order to learn and discuss we have to be civil and on point. Throwing out red herrings makes you look weak.

I can say that the schools are required to spend time teaching many more topics than I agree with. Each year the powers that control the schools place more subject matter on them. It concerns me because there are many things that have to be taught that I don't think should be under the umbrella of public education.

It would be my wish that we go back to the required minimum subjects and then there would be time left over for each student to choose their extras.

However, the devil is in the details. Getting everyone to agree on the minimums is the problem.

 

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[Jake]

Love it, I think you've touched on a big need here with your business. Do you have anything sold yet and implemented in schools?

I am an ex middle school teacher, and couldn't believe they weren't teaching computer engineering. All of the elective courses were baloney, except for music, which I taught. I think kids would be very interested and capable in doing this. To code is to create, and knowing that skill will open doors for anyone.

My Daughter's new school seems on top of it.

"Our focus with our younger students is technology exposure, to give them the foundational skills necessary to make best use of technology in later years, and to introduce them to the basic concepts of programming. Our kindergarten lab doubles as a technology exploration lab with desktop computers, iPads, games, a green screen and programmable robots. These robots allow us to introduce our younger students to basic coding concepts such as sequential logic and command functions, and these concepts give them the basic toolkit necessary to excel in a wide variety of overlapping subjects."

 

[GuestUser450]

However, the devil is in the details. Getting everyone to agree on the minimums is the problem.

And this realization is where it ended for me - a 5 year effort of pto meetings, budget override assemblies, stem clubs, etc. concluding with a defeated shrug.

The model isn't built for what it needs to do.

We can pretend that rational adults want to sit down with local school boards and teachers and hash out appropriate curricula based on real needs but it doesn't happen.

So the scope of public school will only get bigger and bloatier - it'll continue to be overcrowded, underfunded, convoluted in policy but lax in actual standards and simultaneously behind the modern tech curve while ignoring emotional iq and communication fundamentals.

Maybe it's privileged bitching but I don't think most people expect miracles from a public service; they're just frustrated with the bare minimums.

So where do we go from here? I think the future is independent learning and the products and services that facilitate it.

When folks see both the smart and the wealthy choosing homeschool over private, the stigma will fade. For teens it'll eventually become the norm; to which I think middle and high schools will eventually look and act more like coworking spaces than classrooms.

 

[devine]

please tell me what you think should be taught o wise one? more about how the mitochondria works in a ****ing frog?

not trying to get political, but maybe if people were taught economics in school, this presidential election wouldn't have us choosing between a sociopathic traitor, a trust fund baby boomer, and a cracked out commie pinko?

Re-read my previous posts to get a better understanding of what school education is.
If people were taught economics in schools (which is the case in my country) - they would get absolutely nothing out of that.
Everyone wants to be an enterpreneur, wants to be successful, but very few want to actually deserve to be there.
The enterpreneurship or any other job is not based on financial literacy, it's based on being of value.
Knowing "How mitochondria works in a freaking frog" teaches you the very basics of biology in order to help you understand more complex organisms like your own.

If people we taught economics in school, this presidential election would have you choosen between those who promise bigger things to bigger groups of people, i.e. the same as it is now.
It's easy to manipulate clueless people, and bringing subjects like economics to school education would make people even more clueless.

 

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[amp0193]

We've sold about 600 kits to some early adopters in the past few months and just did a more official soft-launch of the product last week -- we still have some improvements to make to the website, product video, etc. We will start more heavy marketing in the next few weeks.

We have spent much of the past year working with various parents, private schools, summer camps, homeschooling families, local technology groups and other educational organizations around the country to get input on the product and curriculum, and the feedback and reactions we gotten from parents, educators and kids has been tremendous.

Over the next year or so, we'll be working on a cost-reduced version of the kit to make it more accessible to families and educational groups in lower-income areas and we'll likely be expanding our business model (subscription services for parents, online curriculum for schools, etc).

If anyone is interested in checking it out or providing feedback (again, we still have some improvements coming on the website), here it is:

http://www.ReadySetSTEM.com

And if anyone has kids 13+ and is interested in buying one, shoot me a PM and I'll give you a 20% discount code you can use...

And if you just want to support us, feel free to follow us on Facebook (/ReadySetSTEM) or Twitter (@ReadySetSTEM)!

Love it, looks really cool, and I think your branding is on point!

 

[tspzo]

Generally "those who can't do, teach."
Of course there are exceptions, and my grievances are limited to compulsory school, other schools and college were different.
In these particular schools it was rare to have a teacher who had formal experience in the subject. They'd often trade subjects with each other, so a math teacher with a statistics degree might teach your chemistry class if they feel like it next year. This is possible because they're given a curriculum from the state, from which the students must complete a set of tasks throughout the year to pass. Each of them are outlined in detail in the curriculum so it requires no outside knowledge to teach.
The students also take a final test in the beginning of the year with the expectation that they'll fail, at the end of the year they take that same test and the difference between the first and second scores is used to assess the teacher's performance. Is the education system broken? I'm not sure I'd say that, but it is deeply flawed.
There's this element of anti-entrepreneurship in public schools, since day one they're preparing indoctrinating you for the workforce - how to be a good worker and make lots of money for your boss. You're liable to be the end of a joke if you suggested you would start your own business or go self employed. If you wanted to be a tradesman you were a blue collar lowlife, if you wanted to build a business you were a pipe dreamer and should give it up.
They push college like crack in the '80s. Which is fine, but they insist it for every student and it's not appropriate for every student, hence why we have a credit crisis in the US and millions of people, with trillions in debt and nothing to show for it because their lib arts degree wasn't a magical key to employment like the school told them. Unless you go to college and follow the path we've laid out for you, you will not be successful. Their version is a stagnant life at the same job until you get old and wait to die. Their version is the very lives they lead.
I hated it, it felt like every moment I spent there was a missed opportunity elsewhere.

 

[devine]

Generally "those who can't do, teach."

First, anything requires a lot of experience to teach it on a good level. Practical experience.
Second, there is a Huxley socionic type that is limitlessly more efficient in guiding than going by himself. Some people are natural born teachers and judging them by their ability to "do" is like judging a monkey by its ability to fly.

 

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[tspzo]

First, anything requires a lot of experience to teach it on a good level. Practical experience.

You're right, it does. I had a great teacher in the vocational school who had 20+ years of experience in the industry and a relevant business behind him, the education I got from him is invaluable. The things he taught, he knew because he experienced it firsthand, not because he read it from a text.
These teachers (at public school) who traded subjects and followed a curriculum to get by when they had no previous experience with the subject didn't teach on a good level. They taught the basics which can be found in a library.
It can be compared to people on here when they make ebooks in varying subjects. Readers expect them to have some experience, anything. If someone writes a book about how to build a business and they've never done that, it will likely be basic. The same kind of book written by a successful CEO will probably have better advice.

 

[LifeTransformer]

Almost everyone I read says the education system is wrong.

Therefor I think yes, its wrong.

But I could be reading the wrong books.

 

[Sanj Modha]

The number #1 TED Talk says schools kill creativity: http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity

I happen to agree. It's not a failure on the teachers. I had some of the best teachers I've ever known. I'm still in touch with them but the system is broken. And the more I think about it the more I am convinced that it's intentional to some extent.

A dysfunctional society is good for business.

 

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[farrishayes1]

My 2 cents. I believe it should be more tailored to that certain student's interest without going into much detail.

 

[lucasmello]

Coincidently, I was watching this today.

I agree with a lot with that is being said here. And I will add, it is not a US problem, or an European problem. It is a world problem. I have attended schools in Brazil, France, the US. Have tried the IB system, American system, the Brazilian, the International system and had friends in the German, French and Italian systems. IT IS A WORLD PROBLEM.

I think we wait too long for kids to decide what area they want to focus on. For example, let's take an entrepreneur which wants to go the academic route before diving into the market. He will go on to do high school with people that want VASTLY different things from him and that don't care (and probably don't need as much): financial planning, stock market, etc. THEN, he goes on to college to do Business. AGAIN, a very general degree full of people that want to be Investment Bankers, Consultants, Accountants, etc. ONLY when he has reached a master's level, will he able to FINALLY "study" entrepreneurship. I think if you show a predisposition to learn entrepreneurship, you should be able to take the route. Instead of having Chemistry in school, I could've had programming. Instead of English literature, Microeconomics. We lose so much time (years) in nonsensical stuff.