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Is it legal to sell modified themes?

LaneMan

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Wasn't sure whether to post in this section or the legal advice one.

Anyway, say I purchase a theme (standard license) on Themeforest, I tweak the design to make it look different and then use that new design on multiple websites, would this be illegal?
 
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kleine2

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Wasn't sure whether to post in this section or the legal advice one.

Anyway, say I purchase a theme (standard license) on Themeforest, I tweak the design to make it look different and then use that new design on multiple websites, would this be illegal?
Read the licenses they are on the site. If it's unclear contact their support to ask.
 

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Isn't that what website people do anyway?

Buy a theme and then change colours, etc etc based on what the client may like.

Dan
 

awd

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Wasn't sure whether to post in this section or the legal advice one.

Anyway, say I purchase a theme (standard license) on Themeforest, I tweak the design to make it look different and then use that new design on multiple websites, would this be illegal?

Tweaking the design should be fine but using it on multiple sites would likely breach the terms of service. I've heard of the clients of web designers having legal troubles after having websites designed using themes without a proper licence, and it would likely end a web designer's career (along with giving them similar legal issues).

Just rebuy the theme if you don't want to custom build. They're dirt cheap when compared to how much money a client will pay you for a website.
 
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LaneMan

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Tweaking the design should be fine but using it on multiple sites would likely breach the terms of service. I've heard of the clients of web designers having legal troubles after having websites designed using themes without a proper licence, and it would likely end a web designer's career (along with giving them similar legal issues).

Just rebuy the theme if you don't want to custom build. They're dirt cheap when compared to how much money a client will pay you for a website.

I know it breaches the terms but what I wanna know is how will Themeforest know it's the theme that I actually purchased.

Basically, I will be changing pretty much everything about the theme and it won't look the same at all.

I'm doing this because I wanna save time and money by avoiding to have to build and test responsive layouts from scratch.

I'm also not sure to how extent UI components can be copyrighted.
 

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I know it breaches the terms but what I wanna know is how will Themeforest know it's the theme that I actually purchased.

Basically, I will be changing pretty much everything about the theme and it won't look the same at all.

I'm doing this because I wanna save time and money by avoiding to have to build and test responsive layouts from scratch.

I'm also not sure to how extent UI components can be copyrighted.

If you know it breaches the terms, then do the right things and pay for each re-use. Someone put works to build those themes, respect that.

"The true test of a man's character is what he does when no one is watching"

I would not risk my reputation for that.
 

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Buy it each time for each site you make. It helps support the theme makers (they don't actually make all that much) and it is just the ethical thing to do. They are like $15.

As long as you buy each time (let's say with an HTML theme) you are covered. That isn't so clear on the site but it is what they are designed/sold to do. It is mostly web designers using these and reselling them to businesses - they know that. They just don't want people buying one and then selling it 100 times without ever paying again.

I actually think HTML themes is an area someone could set up a very solid Fastlane business. A theme with the "sales system template" built-in would be amazing - like the blank outline shows you what to focus on in each section and how to move people to take action. I had debated making one before - not a design-focused theme but a sales-focused theme.
 
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LaneMan

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If you know it breaches the terms, then do the right things and pay for each re-use. Someone put works to build those themes, respect that.

"The true test of a man's character is what he does when no one is watching"

I would not risk my reputation for that.
Buy it each time for each site you make. It helps support the theme makers (they don't actually make all that much) and it is just the ethical thing to do. They are like $15.

As long as you buy each time (let's say with an HTML theme) you are covered. That isn't so clear on the site but it is what they are designed/sold to do. It is mostly web designers using these and reselling them to businesses - they know that. They just don't want people buying one and then selling it 100 times without ever paying again.

I actually think HTML themes is an area someone could set up a very solid Fastlane business. A theme with the "sales system template" built-in would be amazing - like the blank outline shows you what to focus on in each section and how to move people to take action. I had debated making one before - not a design-focused theme but a sales-focused theme.

I'm not talking about buying a theme and slapping it on a ton of websites.

I'm talking about buying the theme, modifying it to make it unique, and then using this new version for my own work. It's not like the people who build these themes didn't do the same thing anyway.

All I care in the theme is the overall layout and internet explorer support because I hate doing this on my own.

I'd like to know which things can be copyrighted. For example, I know someone can't come to me and say that I stole his dropdown menu effect because anyone can code such a thing.

I actually think HTML themes is an area someone could set up a very solid Fastlane business. A theme with the "sales system template" built-in would be amazing - like the blank outline shows you what to focus on in each section and how to move people to take action. I had debated making one before - not a design-focused theme but a sales-focused theme.

It might work but the problem is piracy. Many people might just torrent your theme and claim it's their own because I don't think you can copyright a sales system.

At my previous job, we had templates like that and the content editor would simply replace the text with whatever the marketing department provides. Of course, the templates were in house only.
 

Fox

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I'm not talking about buying a theme and slapping it on a ton of websites.

I'm talking about buying the theme, modifying it to make it unique, and then using this new version for my own work. It's not like the people who build these themes didn't do the same thing anyway.

All I care in the theme is the overall layout and internet explorer support because I hate doing this on my own.

I'd like to know which things can be copyrighted. For example, I know someone can't come to me and say that I stole his dropdown menu effect because anyone can code such a thing.



It might work but the problem is piracy. Many people might just torrent your theme and claim it's their own because I don't think you can copyright a sales system.

At my previous job, we had templates like that and the content editor would simply replace the text with whatever the marketing department provides. Of course, the templates were in house only.

I still don't get you.

You can:

- buy a theme and keep it the exact same and use for yourself
- buy a theme and keep it the exact same and use for your clients website
- buy a theme and edit it and use for yourself or for your clients websites

All of those are fine and what a theme is sold for.


You aren't meant to:

- Buy one theme and make 100 client websites with it.
You can but they are hoping you don't.

You can't:

- Buy a theme, edit it, and resell as your theme...

I would imagine they will come after someone who does this. It is obvious to a good coder if large chunks of code were copied and pasted from somewhere. That is 100% against TOS.

Anyway, there isn't much point in doing this anyway since it isn't even that profitable.
 

LaneMan

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You aren't meant to:

- Buy one theme and make 100 client websites with it.
You can but they are hoping you don't.

That's what I kinda wanna do. Here's a more concrete example:

Let's say I buy a theme like this:
34051

Then I have a client with different needs. I decide to edit it and it turns out like this:
34052

Another client comes to me with completely different needs again. I edit the theme and it turns out like this:
34053

Now, am I supposed to be buying the same theme again and again (or the extended license) even though it's completely different and all of them use the same open source library (Bootstrap)?

I was hoping that someone might have done this before and could advise.
 
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RealDreams

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I actually think HTML themes is an area someone could set up a very solid Fastlane business. A theme with the "sales system template" built-in would be amazing - like the blank outline shows you what to focus on in each section and how to move people to take action. I had debated making one before - not a design-focused theme but a sales-focused theme.
Could you really make money that way? I mean, without the backend it won't work and it's just the "graphic" part (or front-end).
 

Andy Black

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Wasn't sure whether to post in this section or the legal advice one.

Anyway, say I purchase a theme (standard license) on Themeforest, I tweak the design to make it look different and then use that new design on multiple websites, would this be illegal?
Here’s how I look at this stuff:

If you saw the theme developer at a Wordpress conference would you want to shake hands and thank them by explaining how their theme changed your life and that of your customers? Or would you want to keep quiet about what you’ve done?

Will they be delighted to put you on their testimonials page and showcase you as an example of what their theme can do? Or would they feel they’ve been punched in the gut?

It’s so easy to do the right thing so people love you for it and shout about it from the rooftops. Why would you do something even grey area?
 

Fox

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That's what I kinda wanna do. Here's a more concrete example:

Let's say I buy a theme like this:
View attachment 34051

Then I have a client with different needs. I decide to edit it and it turns out like this:
View attachment 34052

Another client comes to me with completely different needs again. I edit the theme and it turns out like this:
View attachment 34053

Now, am I supposed to be buying the same theme again and again (or the extended license) even though it's completely different and all of them use the same open source library (Bootstrap)?

I was hoping that someone might have done this before and could advise.

What you are saying doesn't make any sense.
If you are going to edit it that much then don't use a theme.

There is no point in buying a theme to go dramatically changing it to two totally different styles. But ya if you did it you should buy it twice - if you can't price $15 into your projects to pay the people who supplied the theme then recheck your business model.

Also "client needs" - sounds pretty design-focused. The main way to make web design profitable isn't by heavily edited themes - it is creating sales/solving a problem. You shouldn't need to be editing that themes that heavily if you got the right projects.

Just pay the money if you use the theme.
If you don't need it then don't use it.
 
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Andy Black

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That's what I kinda wanna do. Here's a more concrete example:

Let's say I buy a theme like this:
View attachment 34051

Then I have a client with different needs. I decide to edit it and it turns out like this:
View attachment 34052

Another client comes to me with completely different needs again. I edit the theme and it turns out like this:
View attachment 34053

Now, am I supposed to be buying the same theme again and again (or the extended license) even though it's completely different and all of them use the same open source library (Bootstrap)?

I was hoping that someone might have done this before and could advise.
Is the theme adding value to you?

I’ve noticed that people end up surrounding themselves with people with similar values. Do you want people to pay you if you add value to their lives?

I don’t think it’s even a question of whether it’s legal or not. Loom helps me. I could use their free plan, but decided to pay $10/mth because I like what they’ve done and I’d like them to keep going. It feels like the right thing to do.
 

Fox

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Could you really make money that way? I mean, without the backend it won't work and it's just the "graphic" part (or front-end).

I didn't really explain it so well but I had the model of sending out 1-3 themes a month that were ready to go for different types of sites. They would include a design but also a guide/tools on how to make sure they get results.

You would have a couple of thousand web designers on a monthly plan for great looking+preforming website templates.

If I got time later I will write more on it.
 

S.Y.

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What you are saying doesn't make any sense.
If you are going to edit it that much then don't use a theme.

There is no point in buying a theme to go dramatically changing it to two totally different styles. But ya if you did it you should buy it twice - if you can't price $15 into your projects to pay the people who supplied the theme then recheck your business model.

Also "client needs" - sounds pretty design-focused. The main way to make web design profitable isn't by heavily edited themes - it is creating sales/solving a problem. You shouldn't need to be editing that themes that heavily if you got the right projects.

This question just seems off - just pay the money if you use the theme.
If you don't need it then don't use it.

This. Seriously, if you cant price $15 in your business model, rethink your approach.

And by the way, Fox is walking the talk. His area is web design, he is doing well and has been helping many do well in that area.

But I have the feeling you made a decision and want validation...

If you use someone creation - creation that the creator is selling - then the right thing to do is to pay whenever you use it.

You have frameworks like bootstrap that do a lot of lifting for responsiveness. If that's all you care about, learn them.

Web Design is not my area. But I have built responsive site both on WordPress and using hmtl/css/js. And I consider the structure and the code that makes the sites responsive the foundation.
 
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Ronak

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I'm doing this because I wanna save time and money by avoiding to have to build and test responsive layouts from scratch.

Bottom line, you're getting the benefit of the theme. Whether you change the look 1% of 100%, you're still getting the benefit of the theme each time you use it. You should pay for that benefit each time because it is based on a per use license. If you want something you can buy once and resell many times, you can a) get the appropriate commercial license, b) buy the theme each time (probably not a huge expense), or c) hire a coder to make a master "theme" for you.

IMO, you should not buy once and reuse because it is not ethical, and the low risk of getting caught is still not worth the hassle if you're doing it with multiple clients, and as someone already mentioned, why does it matter if its only a couple of bucks?
 

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Ok, it looks like this discussion derailed into an ethics debate. My question was whether it's legal or not.

I guess nobody here knows for sure, so, let's just call it quits.
 

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I'm not a lawyer, my guess is that you would be breaching your contract by doing what you plan to do.

Not a criminal act per se, but if you do it willfully with the intent to profit, it likely turns criminal in the eyes of the law.

So, no, not legal.

That said, the chance anyone, whether the individual or government, will come after you is roughly zero. Hence the reason why most were looking at it from both an ethical and business point of view. Is your time worth that little that you would put so much effort into saving a few bucks vs just paying for the theme?
 
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LaneMan

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I'm not a lawyer, my guess is that you would be breaching your contract by doing what you plan to do.

Not a criminal act per se, but if you do it willfully with the intent to profit, it likely turns criminal in the eyes of the law.

So, no, not legal.

That said, the chance anyone, whether the individual or government, will come after you is roughly zero. Hence the reason why most were looking at it from both an ethical and business point of view. Is your time worth that little that you would put so much effort into saving a few bucks vs just paying for the theme?

You're getting mad for no reason at all. I don't see how saving $15 is such a bad idea. Hell, if you think $15 is not much, then I'll pm you my Paypal and you can send me some worthless money.

I thought that maybe someone has been doing this before or maybe someone knows something about web design copyright laws here.

I find it weird that people are literally calling me a thief when 90% of web design is stealing from other people's work. The button I clicked on to reply to your post was pretty much stolen from someone else's design.

I wonder if there are any actual designers on this forum or everyone is just a student of Fox's program.
 

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Haha, a penny stolen is a penny earned, I guess? I suppose you can justify anything and we will not agree.

Putting everything aside, if $15 kills your margin, you're not charging enough--think of it from that perspective. You are also looking for feedback from potential clients in your other posts, how do you think they will feel about a web designer that does what you propose? I would personally think twice about hiring such a person for something as critical as a business website.
 

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You're getting mad for no reason at all. I don't see how saving $15 is such a bad idea. Hell, if you think $15 is not much, then I'll pm you my Paypal and you can send me some worthless money.

I thought that maybe someone has been doing this before or maybe someone knows something about web design copyright laws here.

I find it weird that people are literally calling me a thief when 90% of web design is stealing from other people's work. The button I clicked on to reply to your post was pretty much stolen from someone else's design.

I wonder if there are any actual designers on this forum or everyone is just a student of Fox's program.

They aren’t students - just thinking the same thing...

What kind of real business wants to not pay $15 when it’s the right thing to do.

If you need to be legally forced to do the right thing you got bigger problem than website themes.

Go take the theme and do whatever you want with it - but don’t expect to get far with the mentality you are showing in this thread.
 
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LaneMan

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Haha, a penny stolen is a penny earned, I guess? I suppose you can justify anything and we will not agree.

Putting everything aside, if $15 kills your margin, you're not charging enough--think of it from that perspective. You are also looking for feedback from potential clients in your other posts, how do you think they will feel about a web designer that does what you propose? I would personally think twice about hiring such a person for something as critical as a business website.

I don't see what's wrong about hiring me. All I'm doing is taking part of someone else's work to build my own thing, which is how everything else is built. You might even call it inspiration.

Also, I'm not justifying anything. I'm simply telling the truth. Every heard about someone famous who once said "steal like an artist"?

If you need to be legally forced to do the right thing you got bigger problem than website themes.

Go take the theme and do whatever you want with it - but don’t expect to get far with the mentality you are showing in this thread.

Again, it's not about being legally forced. It's about changing the theme enough for it to be considered original work.

If I'm not gonna get far by delivering good work to my clients then maybe I'll think about giving you $2000 and learn some business skills from you.
 

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If your question is about legality:

No, its not legal.

If your question is about morality:

No, its not moral to do it.

If your question is about getting away with it:

Yes, you may get away with it

What everyone is trying to make you understand is that it is not ethical to buy a 15$ license that is intended for a one time use and use it over and over again. Even if a lot of people do it, its still not right. Even if you are only going to make some minor adjustments, its still not right. Even if you are going to redesign the theme completely, its still not right.

Consider the fact that a website can be sold for 1k+. Even if you sell it for 100 dlls you still have a big profit, so refusing to pay 15 dlls makes you look bad.
 

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You're getting mad for no reason at all. I don't see how saving $15 is such a bad idea. Hell, if you think $15 is not much, then I'll pm you my Paypal and you can send me some worthless money.

I thought that maybe someone has been doing this before or maybe someone knows something about web design copyright laws here.

I find it weird that people are literally calling me a thief when 90% of web design is stealing from other people's work. The button I clicked on to reply to your post was pretty much stolen from someone else's design.

I wonder if there are any actual designers on this forum or everyone is just a student of Fox's program.

If you copy someone's visual cues, thats fair game, unless it looks too similar. If you take the actual code of a theme and modify it, that's a derivative work, and you can get in serious trouble for that if you don't play by the rules. Theme owners monitor the web for that kind of thing (they embed code that they then search for it in their themes. If you don't have a license, you can run into problems. The same thing is done with stock photography. Use a picture without a license, and you'll end up with a bill for $1000. If you don't pay, they'll sue you, and you'll end up paying a lot more than that.

When you buy a theme, you're agreeing to abide by its license agreement. Read it, and then follow what it says. Doing otherwise makes you a liar and a thief.

If you don't like the license, don't buy the theme. Find something open source and roll your own.

Edit: If you modify a theme so much that there is nothing left of the original code except for bootstrap, first, why? Second, that's fine ... there's nothing left of the original code. Everything is original to you, so you're now free to do with it as you will. The caveat to this is that if there were patents used in the original code, you can get into trouble with violating the patents. The end result also needs to look and act unique enough to not get you in trouble.
 
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LaneMan

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If your question is about legality:

No, its not legal.

If your question is about morality:

No, its not moral to do it.

If your question is about getting away with it:

Yes, you may get away with it

What everyone is trying to make you understand is that it is not ethical to buy a 15$ license that is intended for a one time use and use it over and over again. Even if a lot of people do it, its still not right. Even if you are only going to make some minor adjustments, its still not right. Even if you are going to redesign the theme completely, its still not right.

Consider the fact that a website can be sold for 1k+. Even if you sell it for 100 dlls you still have a big profit, so refusing to pay 15 dlls makes you look bad.

Ok I just did some research and apparently it's completely legal because you can't copyright the look and feel of a design. You can only copyright specific components like logos, and other shapes. Since I'm not reusing any of those, I'm not doing anything illegal. But I'll do some more research and report back.

Even if I sell a website for $1million I'd still not pay $15 if I did the majority of the work. Paying for it once is enough.

Of course, if I was selling the exact same theme of every website then sure, I'd pay for it.
 

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Ok I just did some research and apparently it's completely legal because you can't copyright the look and feel of a design. You can only copyright specific components like logos, and other shapes. Since I'm not reusing any of those, I'm not doing anything illegal. But I'll do some more research and report back.

Even if I sell a website for $1million I'd still not pay $15 if I did the majority of the work. Paying for it once is enough.

Of course, if I was selling the exact same theme of every website then sure, I'd pay for it.
1) Read the license agreement of the theme you're using. Doing what you're suggesting very likely violates the license. (A license is a list of things you promise you'll live by when you purchase it)
2) Read up on derivative works in copyright law.

You seem to be looking at this with the attitude of 'what can I get away with?' That's why people are jumping all over you. Its also a good way to end up being sued at some point. Ask me how I know this.
 
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1) Read the license agreement of the theme you're using. Doing what you're suggesting very likely violates the license.
2) Read up on derivative works in copyright law.

You seem to be looking at this with the attitude of 'what can I get away with?' That's why people are jumping all over you. Its also a good way to end up being sued at some point. Ask me how I know this.

You're probably right and it might just be too much work to change the theme anyway.

I think I'll just view the source and replicate my own version of the component I'm trying to extract. That way I also don't have to buy the theme at all and they can't claim I stole from the theme when I never bought it in the first place.
 
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Ronak

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Or: find a free theme from somewhere, they're out there.
 

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