I am on a personal goal to decrease caffeine reliance.

[Kevin88660]

Over the past two decades I have been a heavy coffee/tea drinker.

I think I have been deluding myself that caffeine is fine and productive so long I don’t take sugar a long with it.

First Issue is that it always messes my teeth up.

A more serious issue is that I think it messes up my nervous system. While I have no proof for this, I had a first episode of panic attack/ventilation in my life. Because I never had a panic attack in my life I thought of something worse is happening to my body. It is only when the paramedic came and they assured me it is nothing serious and asked me to relax.

I still consulted a GP immediately for a second opinion and did ECG thank god we ruled out any cardiovascular causes.

The literature on caffeine and health always seems to point towards neutral at worst, and quite often some studies claim that caffeine has positive effect on health.

But who knows how reliable and unbiased they can be? The concensus on tobacco was that it not harmful, at the start too.

After all it is a chemical substance interfering with our body.

To help me cope with the withdrawal symptoms, I am going to start to limit my intake to one cup a day first.

 

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[User333]

Over the past two decades I have been a heavy coffee/tea drinker.

I think I have been deluding myself that caffeine is fine and productive so long I don’t take sugar a long with it.

First Issue is that it always messes my teeth up.

A more serious issue is that I think it messes up my nervous system. While I have no proof for this, I had a first episode of panic attack/ventilation in my life. Because I never had a panic attack in my life I thought of something worse is happening to my body. It is only when the paramedic came and they assured me it is nothing serious and asked me to relax.

I still consulted a GP immediately for a second opinion and did ECG thank god we ruled out any cardiovascular causes.

The literature on caffeine and health always seems to point towards neutral at worst, and quite often some studies claim that caffeine has positive effect on health.

But who knows how reliable and unbiased they can be? The concensus on tobacco was that it not harmful, at the start too.

After all it is a chemical substance interfering with our body.

To help me cope with the withdrawal symptoms, I am going to start to limit my intake to one cup a day first.

Right there with you! I've been a heavy tea and coffee drinker for exactly the last 20 years as well. Started with heavy green tea, then oolong, then traditional yerba mate with a gourd back in 2006, and in more recent years 4-6 shots of espresso throughout the day.
Speaking from the point of view of someone who has had countless panic attacks and even severe depersonalization ones when I was much younger, I can say with true experience and care: embrace the concept of "the only thing to fear is fear itself."
I am probably someone that should not be consuming any caffeine, but I've always loved the minor euphoria it produces and the brain stimulation.
When it comes to overall health, I'd say nobody needs it and I believe it should be used sparingly, more as a treat. I've recently reduced my intake to mainly on the weekends and very minimal throughout the week. When I'm essentially high on caffeine, it may feel like I'm highly productive and moving fast, but I've found that I'm simply highly stimulated and essentially spinning my wheels in the mud more so than moving efficiently. It also makes me susceptible to anger outbursts and emotional disregulation compared to when I'm not cracked out on caffeine.
Think in terms of a volatility spectrum. I believed a life lived highly stimulated, or highly depressed, is a life destined to be short-lived. The 3 most financially successful people I know are not victim to any addictions other than the addiction for success. They are calm, cool, and collected, and in fact none of those three consume much caffeine. Two of which zero, and one a humorous mountain dew habit.
Some alternatives I have found not only to be caffeine free, but health promoting: Davidson's Tea ayervedic detox loose leaf (super cheap), Teecino's entire product line (I generally avoid teabags due to plastics though), and Jason Winter's tea which has some well-known health benefits.

 

[JAJT]

The concensus on tobacco was that it not harmful, at the start too.

To be fair, tobacco was one of those "it's healthy and fine as long as we don't look at it" kind of deals. Studies were sponsored by those with skin in the game and anything bad was suppressed. It was a different time.

Caffeine is pretty heavily researched these days and you're right - the consensus is largely neutral. You might find something slightly negative or slightly positive but it's rare to find anything terrible or amazing.

After all it is a chemical substance interfering with our body.

I wouldn't focus on the "chemical substance" part. Everything is basically a chemical substance. Protein is a chemical your body uses to build muscle. That doesn't make protein evil. Caffeine isn't even unnatural - it's found naturally in nature in a number of things humans consume (along with a few other stimulants found throughout nature). What matters is how our bodies respond to the 'chemicals' we put in them.

That being said - good luck on your journey. I tried a few times to give up caffeine and I didn't find it worth it. The withdrawal was shitty and I saw no benefits while "clean" and I love my black coffee too much to worry about one or two cups a day is going to do to me. But all the same - good luck!

 

[MattR82]

I'm finding it harder to quit coffee than when I quit smoking. Probably because smoking was killing me while coffee just screws my sleep and discolours my teeth.

Shitty discipline. I'll make it a few days, get past the headaches, then after a few weeks get one again when I have to have a 5am start, and be on it again.

Man, my sleep is actually glorious after 2 weeks without coffee.

 

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[Vigilante]

Several years back I went cold turkey for a couple months just to prove I could do it. Tough it out for four days and you will be fine.

I now drink copious amounts of caffeine, because I decided I like it, but you can kick the habit in four or five days total by just turning off the spigot.

 

[Etti]

Over the past two decades I have been a heavy coffee/tea drinker.

I think I have been deluding myself that caffeine is fine and productive so long I don’t take sugar a long with it.

First Issue is that it always messes my teeth up.

A more serious issue is that I think it messes up my nervous system. While I have no proof for this, I had a first episode of panic attack/ventilation in my life. Because I never had a panic attack in my life I thought of something worse is happening to my body. It is only when the paramedic came and they assured me it is nothing serious and asked me to relax.

I still consulted a GP immediately for a second opinion and did ECG thank god we ruled out any cardiovascular causes.

The literature on caffeine and health always seems to point towards neutral at worst, and quite often some studies claim that caffeine has positive effect on health.

But who knows how reliable and unbiased they can be? The concensus on tobacco was that it not harmful, at the start too.

After all it is a chemical substance interfering with our body.

To help me cope with the withdrawal symptoms, I am going to start to limit my intake to one cup a day first.

Congrats!! you've done yourself good doing that! interestingly enough, I gave up Coffee, tea and chocolate all in one go, just from knowing how bad I'd been addicted to caffeine and not had been aware of it. interestingly enough it I intially felt so good when I left it, I wondered to myself what else I could leave that could better my energy levels, litterally two days after... I gave up sugar in its entirety... (not easy, but with a solid enough WHY trust me youll get through the withdrawal symptoms in no time) and since then... started fasting and went on a low carb keto diet?! brother man let me you... slowly adding vitamins, like B complexes, and C, and D's? with a workout routine in the morning? sprinkle in some meditation? and journaling... OHHH forget about it... you become a powerhouse!

 

[Aidan04]

Try mud\wtr or just herbal tea. I drink herbal or decaf every day and my brain thinks I'm actually drinking caffeine.

Placebo effect baby.

 

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[Shono]

The guy who wrote the book Caffeine Blues, who is against caffeine, still drinks one well timed cup of coffee a day. This way you gain the benefits of caffeine without the negatives.

Coffee once in the morning (60 minutes after you wake allow the natural post sleep cycle to flush the cortisol out of your system), has numerous benefits besides the energy boost, such as positive dopamine stimulation which can bolster mood and activity (ESPECIALLY coupled with exercise) and as long as you wait 60 minutes after waking you won't crash in the afternoon period since the cortisol left your system already. If you consume caffeine before the cortisol is flushed, it will stay in your system til the caffeine wears off (anywhere from 4 to 8 hours) which is why caffeine drinkers can crash mid day.

Drinking in the afternoon is where things get iffy, according to the author caffeine in the latter half of the day will inhibit DHEA production, which is a hormone of paramount importance. DHEA keeps you young, promotes a healthy cardiovascular system, is anti-inflammatory, and bolsters the metabolic system. In short DHEA is one of the most important hormones in the body to keep you young and healthy and the second dose of caffeine in the day will inhibit its production almost completely since the caffeine binds to the receptors in the adrenal gland that would otherwise produce DHEA. This is also hard on the adrenal glands which causes you stress and anxiety.

TLDR of the 400+ page book; Caffeine is fine early in the day, not to force a jumpstart past the lethargy, but after you are already sufficiently awake. Then you should not consume caffeine after the first dose has left your system ie 4-8 hours depending on how fast you metabolize it (just once per day regardless!) One dose of caffeine per sleep cycle is most optimal for maximum benefits. Also 1g of caffeine per lb of bodyweight per day is optimal.

 

[Subsonic]

The guy who wrote the book Caffeine Blues, who is against caffeine, still drinks one well timed cup of coffee a day. This way you gain the benefits of caffeine without the negatives.

Coffee once in the morning (60 minutes after you wake allow the natural post sleep cycle to flush the cortisol out of your system), has numerous benefits besides the energy boost, such as positive dopamine stimulation which can bolster mood and activity (ESPECIALLY coupled with exercise) and as long as you wait 60 minutes after waking you won't crash in the afternoon period since the cortisol left your system already. If you consume caffeine before the cortisol is flushed, it will stay in your system til the caffeine wears off (anywhere from 4 to 8 hours) which is why caffeine drinkers can crash mid day.

Drinking in the afternoon is where things get iffy, according to the author caffeine in the latter half of the day will inhibit DHEA production, which is a hormone of paramount importance. DHEA keeps you young, promotes a healthy cardiovascular system, is anti-inflammatory, and bolsters the metabolic system. In short DHEA is one of the most important hormones in the body to keep you young and healthy and the second dose of caffeine in the day will inhibit its production almost completely since the caffeine binds to the receptors in the adrenal gland that would otherwise produce DHEA. This is also hard on the adrenal glands which causes you stress and anxiety.

TLDR of the 400+ page book; Caffeine is fine early in the day, not to force a jumpstart past the lethargy, but after you are already sufficiently awake. Then you should not consume caffeine after the first dose has left your system ie 4-8 hours depending on how fast you metabolize it (just once per day regardless!) One dose of caffeine per sleep cycle is most optimal for maximum benefits. Also 1g of caffeine per lb of bodyweight per day is optimal.

As far as I know, this is scientifically wrong.

Cortisol is a hormone that brings energy and if it is high in the morning or at any time, makes it so you can't sleep properly.

It may be that you mean melatonin, which is the hormone that causes tiredness. These are btw the receptors caffeine interacts with.

If the author was talking about cortisol making you tired then I don't think he is a credible source lol.

 

[Shono]

As far as I know, this is scientifically wrong.

Cortisol is a hormone that brings energy and if it is high in the morning or at any time, makes it so you can't sleep properly.

It may be that you mean melatonin, which is the hormone that causes tiredness. These are btw the receptors caffeine interacts with.

If the author was talking about cortisol making you tired then I don't think he is a credible source lol.

From what I remember, the author did an absurd amount of research on the biochemical mechanisms and of medical journals.

Interactions between sleep, stress, and metabolism: From physiological to pathological conditions

Poor sleep quality due to sleep disorders and sleep loss is highly prevalent in the modern society. Underlying mechanisms show that stress is involved in the relationship between sleep and metabolism through hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

From the article:



https://www.everlywell.com/blog/sleep-and-stress/cortisol-and-sleep/#:~:text=The%20body's%20melatonin%20(sleep%20hormone,up%20and%20keep%20you%20awake.



The author didn’t say cortisol makes you tired, and I didn’t say he did. I stated that he said cortisol wakes you up then slowly gets weaned out of your system in the morning. However, if you drink coffee or caffeine right off the bat, it prolongs the weaning process well in to the day, which is why people crash in the afternoon and grab another coffee to combat that with negative consequence.

 

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[Vas87]

I went off caffeiene about 2-3 months ago, so far =
All headaches gone
Zero reflux issues
I don't feel anxiety
I wake up rested in the mornings now

I still have one decaf coffee a day for the taste/ smell

 

[Edoardo]

I went off caffeiene about 2-3 months ago, so far =
All headaches gone
Zero reflux issues
I don't feel anxiety
I wake up rested in the mornings now

I still have one decaf coffee a day for the taste/ smell

Good job. People say that coffee gives them energy, this is wrong. No food can give you that type of "energy", its simply drawing from other sources in your body, in this case you're drawing energy from the kidneys and straining them. It's a long game but it's gonna end up in a disaster for those who use this drug everyday. Don't get me wrong, I like cold brew, but I don't drink it everyday nor weekly, I love my health.

 

[Nicole]

Stevia, the no-calorie herbal sweetener, gives me panic attacks. I never use stevia anymore. I've only tried stevia a few times, and it was by accident. It lowers your blood sugar, a lot, which is bad if you have NORMAL blood sugar and you don't WANT your blood sugar to go low. I bought these cans of frozen juice, and I didn't expect that there would be stevia added to the juice. I didn't read the label, but it said something like, 'Less sugar!' on the front, and that was because they added stevia to it. When I was drinking this juice, I had crazy behavior and panic attacks because the stevia was constantly making my blood sugar go way too low. I had all this anxiety over small things that were no big deal, and some of the consequences were embarrassing. Like, for instance, I was working at the drive-thru window at my job, and this guy went through in his car, and I recognized him from a previous job a few years ago, but couldn't remember his name. I did something, like, I failed to say hello to him, or I failed to acknowledge him somehow, and then afterwards, I remembered who he was, and had a panic attack because I had forgotten his name and didn't say hi to him. I wrote him a bunch of messages on facebook frantically apologizing because I was in the middle of a panic attack. I was like, 'I'M SO SORRY I REMEMBERED WHO YOU WERE RIGHT AFTER YOU LEFT, BLAH BLAH.' It was all because I accidentally drank juice that contained stevia and it lowered my blood sugar. Stevia actively lowers your blood sugar. It does not cause this effect merely because you are eating less sugar elsewhere. The herb itself actively causes your blood sugar to go lower, just like barberries. Japanese barberry bushes are an invasive species that was used for landscaping, and you see them growing everywhere in the eastern USA, and if you eat the barberries, they will also give you really low blood sugar, the same way, through a medicinal effect. Stevia should not be used as a sweetener for this reason. If you want to deliberately lower your blood sugar with it, then do so, but don't do it by ACCIDENT.

I don't believe that sugar itself is bad for you. I believe that processed white sugar probably contains isopropyl alcohol, which is used in the process of extracting the sugar, as in, sugar made from beets. This is based on a few things that I've read, and I haven't been able to verify it. I have learned that ethyl alcohol, the kind that you drink, is an azeotrope, which means, it mixes together with water so strongly, it doesn't let go, and whenever you boil the water, the alcohol doesn't boil away first, but instead, the alcohol will only evaporate whenever all of the water is completely evaporated. It doesn't distill itself or separate from the water. When you cook food, it doesn't make the alcohol evaporate. There will still be alcohol left in there as long as the food contains any water at all, so that means, for instance, if you add sherry wine to your soup or something, it will still have alcohol in it when it's finished cooking. Anyway, my theory is that something kind of similar is happening with white sugar, where somehow, the isopropyl alcohol remains attached to the white sugar even after it's supposed to be all gone. That means you're eating isopropyl alcohol when you eat white sugar, and isopropyl alcohol is a poison, so I believe that this accounts for all of the liver damage and other things that people are claiming is caused by sugar. This is my theory and I have not been able to verify it. The best sugar that I enjoy is panela, which is an artisan sugar, made from sugar cane, where they don't do any kind of chemical extraction at all, just mechanical extraction, where, and you can watch videos of this, they'll grind up all the sugarcane through this grinder thing, and it crushes all the juice out, including both the sugar and the molasses, and then they cook it, and that's the only extraction that's done. This is the best sugar that I have ever eaten, but it's hard to find in stores. 'Sucanat' is a pretty good substitute, but I don't know the details of how it's made, I only know that it's supposedly all of the sugar and the molasses. 'Brown sugar' is a mixture of white sugar, extracted the normal way with chemicals, with some molasses added back in, and it's way inferior to panela, and still has whatever problems white sugar has, if you want to avoid residues of chemicals used to extract the sugar. I also eat raw, unfiltered, crystallized honey, and I also eat maple syrup.

 

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[tigerbalm]

As far as I know, this is scientifically wrong.

Cortisol is a hormone that brings energy and if it is high in the morning or at any time, makes it so you can't sleep properly.

It may be that you mean melatonin, which is the hormone that causes tiredness. These are btw the receptors caffeine interacts with.

If the author was talking about cortisol making you tired then I don't think he is a credible source lol.

From what I remember, the author did an absurd amount of research on the biochemical mechanisms and of medical journals.

Interactions between sleep, stress, and metabolism: From physiological to pathological conditions

Poor sleep quality due to sleep disorders and sleep loss is highly prevalent in the modern society. Underlying mechanisms show that stress is involved in the relationship between sleep and metabolism through hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

From the article:

View attachment 51817

https://www.everlywell.com/blog/sleep-and-stress/cortisol-and-sleep/#:~:text=The%20body's%20melatonin%20(sleep%20hormone,up%20and%20keep%20you%20awake.

View attachment 51818

The author didn’t say cortisol makes you tired, and I didn’t say he did. I stated that he said cortisol wakes you up then slowly gets weaned out of your system in the morning. However, if you drink coffee or caffeine right off the bat, it prolongs the weaning process well in to the day, which is why people crash in the afternoon and grab another coffee to combat that with negative consequence.

I think you guys are both talking about adenosine

 

[Aidan04]

I think you guys are both talking about adenosine

I think that's what they were trying to say. Caffeine just blocks adenosine, making you FEEL less tired, not actually less tired.

 

[parabolic]

I never drink caffeinated drinks. You can do it!

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

I smoke cigars, sleep-in, drink coffee, smoke occasional weed, have taken illegal drugs, take hot showers, and I don't invest in index funds with my savings from Starbucks abstinence.

Based on all cultural trends and life-hacks, I should be dead.

 

[Shono]

I think you guys are both talking about adenosine

Nope. Definitely cortisol lol. I’m going to stop pretending like I’m a scientist and did research in a lab, but I can specifically remember reading that screwy cortisol levels from consuming caffeine at inopportune times was directly correlated with inhibited DHEA production, it was a point of great importance which is why I remember it.

Edit: my mistake, adenosine is still a part of the equation, cortisol is what clears out the adenosine, which contributes to feeling sleepy.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Sorry for the sidebar guys, but it needs to be said: Dude, @Shono -- hard to believe you used to be DroopyNips.

You've come quite a long way and it is very impressive. From sub 50% and moderation puragtory to 300%+

Strong work.

 

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[parabolic]

I smoke cigars, sleep-in, drink coffee, smoke occasional weed, have taken illegal drugs, take hot showers, and I don't invest in index funds with my savings from Starbucks abstinence.

Based on all cultural trends and life-hacks, I should be dead.

Everybody's different. It's all about listening to your body and finding what works for you. Glad to know that you're enjoying yourself and aren't dead yet!

 

[Vigilante]

I smoke cigars, sleep-in, drink coffee, smoke occasional weed, have taken illegal drugs, take hot showers, and I don't invest in index funds with my savings from Starbucks abstinence.

Based on all cultural trends and life-hacks, I should be dead.

Can we still mark individual posts gold?

 

[Kevin88660]

Stevia, the no-calorie herbal sweetener, gives me panic attacks. I never use stevia anymore. I've only tried stevia a few times, and it was by accident. It lowers your blood sugar, a lot, which is bad if you have NORMAL blood sugar and you don't WANT your blood sugar to go low. I bought these cans of frozen juice, and I didn't expect that there would be stevia added to the juice. I didn't read the label, but it said something like, 'Less sugar!' on the front, and that was because they added stevia to it. When I was drinking this juice, I had crazy behavior and panic attacks because the stevia was constantly making my blood sugar go way too low. I had all this anxiety over small things that were no big deal, and some of the consequences were embarrassing. Like, for instance, I was working at the drive-thru window at my job, and this guy went through in his car, and I recognized him from a previous job a few years ago, but couldn't remember his name. I did something, like, I failed to say hello to him, or I failed to acknowledge him somehow, and then afterwards, I remembered who he was, and had a panic attack because I had forgotten his name and didn't say hi to him. I wrote him a bunch of messages on facebook frantically apologizing because I was in the middle of a panic attack. I was like, 'I'M SO SORRY I REMEMBERED WHO YOU WERE RIGHT AFTER YOU LEFT, BLAH BLAH.' It was all because I accidentally drank juice that contained stevia and it lowered my blood sugar. Stevia actively lowers your blood sugar. It does not cause this effect merely because you are eating less sugar elsewhere. The herb itself actively causes your blood sugar to go lower, just like barberries. Japanese barberry bushes are an invasive species that was used for landscaping, and you see them growing everywhere in the eastern USA, and if you eat the barberries, they will also give you really low blood sugar, the same way, through a medicinal effect. Stevia should not be used as a sweetener for this reason. If you want to deliberately lower your blood sugar with it, then do so, but don't do it by ACCIDENT.

I don't believe that sugar itself is bad for you. I believe that processed white sugar probably contains isopropyl alcohol, which is used in the process of extracting the sugar, as in, sugar made from beets. This is based on a few things that I've read, and I haven't been able to verify it. I have learned that ethyl alcohol, the kind that you drink, is an azeotrope, which means, it mixes together with water so strongly, it doesn't let go, and whenever you boil the water, the alcohol doesn't boil away first, but instead, the alcohol will only evaporate whenever all of the water is completely evaporated. It doesn't distill itself or separate from the water. When you cook food, it doesn't make the alcohol evaporate. There will still be alcohol left in there as long as the food contains any water at all, so that means, for instance, if you add sherry wine to your soup or something, it will still have alcohol in it when it's finished cooking. Anyway, my theory is that something kind of similar is happening with white sugar, where somehow, the isopropyl alcohol remains attached to the white sugar even after it's supposed to be all gone. That means you're eating isopropyl alcohol when you eat white sugar, and isopropyl alcohol is a poison, so I believe that this accounts for all of the liver damage and other things that people are claiming is caused by sugar. This is my theory and I have not been able to verify it. The best sugar that I enjoy is panela, which is an artisan sugar, made from sugar cane, where they don't do any kind of chemical extraction at all, just mechanical extraction, where, and you can watch videos of this, they'll grind up all the sugarcane through this grinder thing, and it crushes all the juice out, including both the sugar and the molasses, and then they cook it, and that's the only extraction that's done. This is the best sugar that I have ever eaten, but it's hard to find in stores. 'Sucanat' is a pretty good substitute, but I don't know the details of how it's made, I only know that it's supposedly all of the sugar and the molasses. 'Brown sugar' is a mixture of white sugar, extracted the normal way with chemicals, with some molasses added back in, and it's way inferior to panela, and still has whatever problems white sugar has, if you want to avoid residues of chemicals used to extract the sugar. I also eat raw, unfiltered, crystallized honey, and I also eat maple syrup.

I watch on carbs intake and used to have "less sugar options" with caffeine.

Recently I tried to go with the zero sugar option with caffeine it is causing to have some forms of withdrawal which I believe is the cause of my recent panic attack recently. One medical staff told me that it is panic attack and nothing to worry. I went to confirm with another doctor with blood work and everything is fine. Then I began to suspect the true cause which is due to a combination of sugar withdrawal and pro-longed caffeine intake. The sugar withdrawal is causing extreme sudden sleepiness that made me panic because I thought I was fainting. Lack of sugar causes the part on low energy levels and caffeine causes the part on anxiety.

It is kind of surprising that I never felt weak when I was transitioning from caffeine drinks with 100% sugar to 30% sugar (3 years back) but when the move to zero can affect me that much.

 

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[Juke]

The guy who wrote the book Caffeine Blues, who is against caffeine, still drinks one well timed cup of coffee a day. This way you gain the benefits of caffeine without the negatives.

Just finished reading this book. It was written in 1998 I think but I found it bloody fascinating and scary! I am 2 weeks into the author's recommended 60 days of no caffeine and definitely seen some benefits already (although I do really miss my coffee!)

I didn't realise the author drinks one coffee per day. That's interesting. I am going to see how I feel after 60 days and may do the same.

I have also tried drinking herbal 'coffee', made from chicory. It's quite enjoyable but not quite the same!