Everyone wants to be your "friend" until you ask for upfront payment.....

[Jay D]

I do understand that people are intrigued by what I do for a living.

(Mergers, LBO's, securing growth capital,etc....)


Everyone and their mothers want's to do a deal. OR become some wannabe hot shot deal guy(without any experience nor background doing deals).

I'm all about helping people put deals together. As soon as I say "sure, we can move forward...I accept Visa, MC, Amex as a form of payment for my upfront retainer fee", the looks on their faces..........PRICELESS. (cold approachers)

I've spent close to 20 years learning my craft that I am very good at. People EXPECT me to give them all of the help/advice for FREE. If they cannot afford my retainer fee( it's not cheap neither), than I know they cannot afford the actual consulting fee. If they can't afford the consulting fee, I know they cannot afford to do any deals that I put together for PAYING clients.

People that "cold approach" me, more than likely cannot afford me nor my services. 95% of the time. 100% of my clients are referral. That's the way the deal community works. The cold approachers usually approach after they've heard me speak or something like that....or we happen to be somewhere and we just engage in conversation.

I don't mind talking to people in a general sense, but, I have office space and people that I have to pay in addition to my own personal deals.

I do not give out free consulting. Why do people almost get offended when you ask them to pay for services/advice?

 

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[H. Palmer]

Same problem here, Jay, although my main activity is publishing, I do consult people now and then on venture capital.

I have been wondering the same thing and I think this is the problem.

The cold approachers are mostly people who don't know much about business. They seriously think that they have a world class idea and the only thing they need is capital and then everything will go fine and everyone involved will get rich.

And then of course you are the guy with all the contacts (they keep saying "your network") and you only need one telephone call to set the money free, don't you? And since you're a nice guy and they bought you a drink, why wouldn't you do that for them? By the way, you were once poor too and someone obviously gave you a break, so now please do that for them, OK?

So if you ask them which credit card they wanna use, that's the cold shower of experience that is suddenly pooring on them.

The reality is of course that ideas are worth zip and hard systematic work is the only thing that does the job.

I have trouble with these moments too, but you shouldn't feel guilty. Currently I am devising a written script to deal with these people when they approach me over the internet. And I'm developing a software tool to filter them by asking questions in Q & A style. Out of this filter leads should come that either go to my website with books about venture capital or they become a candidate for personal services.

For the latter group I now have some semi-standardized services but in future I want to sell these as leads to consultancy friends or to businesses that provide workshops or trainings etc.

 

[theag]

(Mergers, LBO's, securing growth capital,etc....) (...) I accept Visa, MC, Amex as a form of payment for my upfront retainer fee", the looks on their faces.......

That sounds weird to me. Why don't you invoice? Much more appropriate in this field IMO.

 

[Jay D]

I invoice for the consulting( payment due in full at closing). I REQUIRE upfront payment for the retainer. Retainer has nothing to do with whether the client completes a deal or not. A retainer get's you on my calendar. That's all it does. You can ask questions with the retainer but the consulting starts when you sign my 8 page contract.

Even when I invoice, that's to be paid in full at the closing. There is no "due in 30 days". That's not the way I run my business and I don't do what others do or what people "in the field do". I don't have time to run a collections department because when you invoice you have collections, you cannot avoid it. I work and earn my money and I expect to get paid immediately.

Most of the people that I know get aid the same way I do, doesn't matter if they run their own firm or work for Goldman Sacks. People don't invoice they or the company get paid at closing via escrow.



I'm not sure why you think it's weird.

 

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[Astute]

Having worked in a Credit Controller position in a shipping company I know how much of a challenge it is to get people to pay their invoices on time. "Invoice date: 15/01/13. Due date: 25/01/13." They will try every trick in the book:

- "I sent the cheque to you in the post on the 25th."
- "It was a weekend" (Even though their credit terms would state '10 calendar days from creation of invoice.'
- "Our Accounts person has been ill."

Etc etc.

That being said though, despite me not knowing anything about your business, I have to say that I think you may be missing out on some good clients. Yes, upfront fees avoid a lot of time wasters, but I am pretty sure a lot of clients will consider the attitude arrogant. Being inflexible on payment terms may mean you are losing a lot of business you could otherwise be retaining.

You can do credit checks and a few other things before you enter into these credit terms, so you can really minimise your risk to bad payors.

 

[Jay D]

I'm sorry, if they CANNOT afford the retainer they most certainly cannot afford the consulting fee. If they cannot afford the consulting they sure as hell don't have any money to acquire a business. I'm not talking gas stations and bakeries neither.


It has nothing to do with "time wasters". It's about being financially capable to acquire a large asset. I'm not sorry if you or anyone thinks it arrogant or inflexible. If you're looking for a payment plan than we most certainly are not a good fit and you're not ready for the deals that I do or can do for you as a paying client.

Guess what? I have a friend that lives in a very high end high rise building in Chicago. It's a "cash only" building. What does that mean? It means if you want to buy a unit(They start at $700K for a 1 bedroom)you have to pay cash. Your liquid net worth needs to be 3 times the price of the unit. Are they losing people as a result of their terms? Yes. Do you think they care? No. Why? They are a lot of people that are on the high end of every market. From cars, homes,etc...

Rolls Royce doesn't lower the price of it's cars(being flexible) so the guy the makes $45K a year can afford it. If you can't afford it, you're not the customer for Rolls Royce.

Please don't apply your collections experience to every business and think everyone should offer Terms and conditions and be flexible. If you can't afford it, that's not my problem. I don't want every guy that walks through the door as my client. I deal with a certain kind/caliber client. I like being exclusive.


Here is the key to your response: The part in bold.

Having worked in a Credit Controller position in a shipping company I know how much of a challenge it is to get people to pay their invoices on time. "Invoice date: 15/01/13. Due date: 25/01/13." They will try every trick in the book:

- "I sent the cheque to you in the post on the 25th."
- "It was a weekend" (Even though their credit terms would state '10 calendar days from creation of invoice.'
- "Our Accounts person has been ill."

Etc etc.

That being said though, despite me not knowing anything about your business, I have to say that I think you may be missing out on some good clients. Yes, upfront fees avoid a lot of time wasters, but I am pretty sure a lot of clients will consider the attitude arrogant. Being inflexible on payment terms may mean you are losing a lot of business you could otherwise be retaining.

You can do credit checks and a few other things before you enter into these credit terms, so you can really minimise your risk to bad payors.

 

[Astute]

I'm sorry, if they CANNOT afford the retainer they most certainly cannot afford the consulting fee. If they cannot afford the consulting they sure as hell don't have any money to acquire a business. I'm not talking gas stations and bakeries neither.


It has nothing to do with "time wasters". It's about being financially capable to acquire a large asset. I'm not sorry if you or anyone thinks it arrogant or inflexible. If you're looking for a payment plan than we most certainly are not a good fit and you're not ready for the deals that I do or can do for you as a paying client.

Guess what? I have a friend that lives in a very high end high rise building in Chicago. It's a "cash only" building. What does that mean? It means if you want to buy a unit(They start at $700K for a 1 bedroom)you have to pay cash. Your liquid net worth needs to be 3 times the price of the unit. Are they losing people as a result of their terms? Yes. Do you think they care? No. Why? They are a lot of people that are on the high end of every market. From cars, homes,etc...

Rolls Royce doesn't lower the price of it's cars(being flexible) so the guy the makes $45K a year can afford it. If you can't afford it, you're not the customer for Rolls Royce.

Please don't apply your collections experience to every business and think everyone should offer Terms and conditions and be flexible. If you can't afford it, that's not my problem. I don't want every guy that walks through the door as my client. I deal with a certain kind/caliber client. I like being exclusive.

You seem to be confusing not being able to afford a fee and wanting to spread the cost out over a longer period of time. They are two different things.

 

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[awkwardgenius]

I've spent close to 20 years learning my craft that I am very good at.

I love it. So many people have the nerve to criticize someone regarding a business they know nothing about.

There's more to living a fastlane life than income, and there's more to income than volume. If Jay D is getting the results he wants, what kind of an arrogant jackass does it take to critique his business practices, particularly when you know nothing of his field.

There was a lesson here, and the smart members of this forum are absorbing it, and the cocky ones are trying to give him advice, when they likely can't produce a fifth of the results of this guy on their best day.

Good on ya, man. I totally get what you're saying. People always expect you to work for free, even if your services literally provide millions in value.

If someone were to walk onto a car lot and ask for the keys to a car with nothing down, no paperwork, can't even produce a license...all on the promise that they are going to use it to look for a job, everyone here would say they are nuts. No one would suggest "brah...you're losing out on so much potential business by turning that guy away!".

Your time is far more precious than any car, particularly when you hold the power to not only help someone identify and purchase a good business, but also create the funding to make the deal happen.

Don't let the armchair quarterbacks bug ya. They are just hoping someday when they walk up to you hat in hand, that you'll be willing to work with them for free too.

 

[Astute]

I love it. So many people have the nerve to criticize someone regarding a business they know nothing about.

There's more to living a fastlane life than income, and there's more to income than volume. If Jay D is getting the results he wants, what kind of an arrogant jackass does it take to critique his business practices, particularly when you know nothing of his field.

There was a lesson here, and the smart members of this forum are absorbing it, and the cocky ones are trying to give him advice, when they likely can't produce a fifth of the results of this guy on their best day.

Good on ya, man. I totally get what you're saying. People always expect you to work for free, even if your services literally provide millions in value.

If someone were to walk onto a car lot and ask for the keys to a car with nothing down, no paperwork, can't even product a license...all on the promise that they are going to use it to look for a job, everyone here would say they are nuts. No one would suggest "brah...you're losing out on so much potential business by turning that guy away!".

Your time is far more precious than any car, particularly when you hold the power to not only help someone identify and purchase a good business, but also create the funding to make the deal happen.

Don't let the armchair quarterbacks bug ya. They are just hoping someday when they walk up to you hat in hand, that you'll be willing to work with them for free too.

If you were to build a house that costs $300k to build and when you rang an architect, or a builder, and they told you "Yes we can do that. But before we have a meeting to discuss it I need your credit card details. That'll be $10k please." Would you trust those people? Or would you think they are complete cowboys and crooks? They could tell you that they have built 1000s of houses and they produce good results. But how are you supposed to know they will do that for you? Where is the incentive for them to do a good job?

How are you supposed to show a client that you have their best interests in mind, and you will get them the best deal, when it comes across that you only care about lining your own pockets?

You don't have to reduce the price to be more flexible. Hell, you could charge even more for being flexible with terms. But to dismiss people as being unable to afford something, simply because they are reluctant to pay upfront, is completely ludicrous.

 

[awkwardgenius]

You don't have to reduce the price to be more flexible. Hell, you could charge even more for being flexible with terms. But to dismiss people as being unable to afford something, simply because they are reluctant to pay upfront, is completely ludicrous.

Well, in the 15 minutes you've participated in this thread, I'm sure you've gleaned enough info to critique his business model. You seem a bit thick-headed, but here's an example that may edify others who are on the edge of getting what I said in my last post.


There's a fellow in Australia by the name of Paddi Lund. He's a dentist. At the time of this story, the average dentist worked 60hrs a week and makes ~$60k AUS. Paddi works about 23hrs, and makes ~$400k.

What's he do differently? Well, the first thing he did was he locked his doors. He literally locked people out of his office. There's a buzzer and a sign that says "if you were referred here by a current client, ring the buzzer, otherwise, we apologize, but we're unable to help you".
(this is where you gasp and tell him he's doing everything wrong, despite his clearly superior results)

When a referred patient comes in, they are greeted by a cafe-like setting with booths and the scent of fresh baked goods and cookies coming from the kitchen where Paddi keeps a baker on staff. He sits down with them over a roll or a scone and explains the conditions of working with him, and what is expected of them as a patient.

One of those requirements is that they pay in cash at the time of service. Paddi wished to run a no-receivables business, so he does. The other is that they must be honest with him about the services they've been rendered, and if they are dissatisfied in any way, they tell him up front so he can make it right. Finally, they must provide, upon completion of the work to their satisfaction, two referrals of similar quality to themselves.

He thought he might get a 50% compliance with the referral request, and was nervous about being so forward about it initially. You know what the average response is? "Can I only refer two people?"

By challenging the status quo for his industry, and literally turning away business, he has built one of the most successful practices in the country and works over 50% less hours for it.

If Jay D is that good at what he does (and I'm inclined to believe he is), then turning away business from people who want special financial accommodations is not only his right, but it's his duty if he's to continue serving his current clients at the level they expect, as well as to himself when it comes to producing the greatest results. I'm guessing if he can command an upfront retainer like that, he has a hell of a track record at what he does, and the people who pay that retainer are savvy professionals who can spot a scam a mile away, and know he presents himself in a way that's credible.

 

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[Astute]

Well, in the 15 minutes you've participated in this thread, I'm sure you've gleaned enough info to critique his business model. You seem a bit thick-headed, but here's an example that may edify others who are on the edge of getting what I said in my last post.


There's a fellow in Australia by the name of Paddi Lund. He's a dentist. At the time of this story, the average dentist worked 60hrs a week and makes ~$60k AUS. Paddi works about 23hrs, and makes ~$400k.

What's he do differently? Well, the first thing he did was he locked his doors. He literally locked people out of his office. There's a buzzer and a sign that says "if you were referred here by a current client, ring the buzzer, otherwise, we apologize, but we're unable to help you".
(this is where you gasp and tell him he's doing everything wrong, despite his clearly superior results)

When a referred patient comes in, they are greeted by a cafe-like setting with booths and the scent of fresh baked goods and cookies coming from the kitchen where Paddi keeps a baker on staff. He sits down with them over a roll or a scone and explains the conditions of working with him, and what is expected of them as a patient.

One of those requirements is that they pay in cash at the time of service. Paddi wished to run a no-receivables business, so he does. The other is that they must be honest with him about the services they've been rendered, and if they are dissatisfied in any way, they tell him up front so he can make it right. Finally, they must provide, upon completion of the work to their satisfaction, two referrals of similar quality to themselves.

He thought he might get a 50% compliance with the referral request, and was nervous about being so forward about it initially. You know what the average response is? "Can I only refer two people?"

By challenging the status quo for his industry, and literally turning away business, he has built one of the most successful practices in the country and works over 50% less hours for it.

If Jay D is that good at what he does (and I'm inclined to believe he is), then turning away business from people who want special financial accommodations is not only his right, but it's his duty if he's to continue serving his current clients at the level they expect, as well as to himself when it comes to producing the greatest results. I'm guessing if he can command an upfront retainer like that, he has a hell of a track record at what he does, and the people who pay that retainer are savvy professionals who can spot a scam a mile away, and know he presents himself in a way that's credible.

That is a lovely story. And I am not surprised Paddi has returning customers. He gives his patients cookies and sugary treats that damage their teeth and gets them to come back to him.

But mergers and other high value transactions are on a completely different universe to fixing peoples teeth for a thousand bucks at a time.

You may be inclined to believe the OP (on what basis?) but any half decent, successful businessman I know personally would be very cautious about buying into the 'looks' of company or the professional providing services and paying high amounts before seeing any results. If they have been recommended it from an associate then they may be a little more receptive to it, but otherwise in an industry where it is not the norm (as OP already stated) then you would just be driving a lot of business into the arms of competitors.

Just because someone claims to be an authority on 'X' or are qualified to practise 'X' it does not mean you should take their words as gospel.

 

[Vigilante]

Time is the most valuable commodity that I own.

Not a day goes by generally when someone doesn't assume they can take some of my most valuable commodity for free. It's the ones who assume my time is at their disposal that generally end up disappointed.

Every minute I spend with you is a minute less that I am spending making money. It's a minute less that I am spending playing with my kids. It's a minute, or ten, or twenty or an hour that I can never get back.

Guard your time. Build walls around your accessibility. Steven Covey talks about putting first things first, and that begins by ensuring every minute of every day is spent how you want it spent.

I determine where I will volunteer my time. You don't.

In my younger years, an open door policy lead to several counseling/consulting sessions with action fakers, although I didn't understand that they represented the majority of people. I wanted to help. It didn't take long, though, for me to develop a policy that if you took zero action since the last time we spoke, I would not meet with you again.

Family has access to me. My inner circle has access to me. Beyond that, my plate is as full as I want it to be.

Will I meet with you to explore your dreams? Probably not. Do I want to partner with you? Nope.

Bakers don't bake for free. Doctors don't give free medical advice all day to people who call them on the phone. Electricians don't give you wiring diagrams because you're a nice guy. Lawyers charge in 15 minute increments, even if you talk to them for 3. Why do people expect that people like Jay, who earn their living (Mergers, LBO's, securing growth capital,etc....) would do it for free, even for 10 minutes?

90% of the questions I am usually asked by action fakers could be answered by Google. You have an idea that you want to pursue, and that's as far as you are in your action faking? If you haven't invested in yourself, how could you possibly ask me to take my most valuable commodity and give it to you for free?

Here's a clue for you as to how to get what you want. I am currently at the Beer and Pancakes spin off of this forum. There are 50 people here. They're all Fastlaners at various points of their journeys. They all have a common trait. They all have spent WAY more time inside of their business goals than anything they could ever ask me to look at. Hundreds of hours. Plans, trials, successes, and failures. Any question they would ever ask me would be steeped in dozens of hours of their own work navigating obstacles in their own strategy. We spent 8 hours yesterday inside the minds of several of the brightest people I have ever met. Not one topic was raised that could simply have been answered by Google. These are the types of people worth investing in, because they invest in themselves. I am not suggesting you have to attend a seminar or Beer and Pancakes to get advice. My point is that until you put it all on the line, invest in yourself, get deep into your own dreams and take action towards making them happen... I won't freely give you what I protect the most.

And this is why someone like Jay charges a retainer up front. It's not about the money. It's about the commitment. People like Astute think it's rude. I say it separates the wheat from the chaff. It's a quick way to cut through the bull shit, the people looking for handouts, and the action fakers. Don't ask Jay to put skin in the game (time = money) before you put your own skin in the game. You don't like it? Go elsewhere.

My time is my most valuable commodity. I guard it very carefully. I spend it where I want to.

 

[awkwardgenius]

But mergers and other high value transactions are on a completely different universe to fixing peoples teeth for a thousand bucks at a time.

And I have a feeling you're probably not qualified to comment on either. You have an unteachable attitude, and you're going to learn a lot of lessons the hard way.

I find it telling that all of the folks trying to tell Jay how to run his business in their early 20s, and all of the people empathizing have some miles behind them. You kids would do well to spend more time listening than talking.

 

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[Vigilante]

If you were to build a house that costs $300k to build and when you rang an architect, or a builder, and they told you "Yes we can do that. But before we have a meeting to discuss it I need your credit card details. That'll be $10k please." Would you trust those people? Or would you think they are complete cowboys and crooks? They could tell you that they have built 1000s of houses and they produce good results. But how are you supposed to know they will do that for you? Where is the incentive for them to do a good job?

The last home builder we met with was best in his class, and we wanted him to build us a house. He charged us $30,000 up front on a retained basis before a shovel was ever in the ground.

 

[Astute]

And this is why someone like Jay charges a retainer up front. It's not about the money. It's about the commitment. People like Astute think it's rude. I say it separates the wheat from the chaff. It's a quick way to cut through the bull shit, the people looking for handouts, and the action fakers.

I have not once said OP should practise his business for free. I never said it was rude. "A quick way to cut through the bull shit" is just a euphemism for not being bothered enough to maximise an opportunity. It is lazy, arrogant and smacks of complacency. You do not know these people approaching you, yet you dismiss them over a prejudice you hold. How do you know that this client will not be your source of income in 10 years time?

And I have a feeling you're probably not qualified to comment on either. You have an unteachable attitude, and you're going to learn a lot of lessons the hard way.

I find it telling that all of the folks trying to tell Jay how to run his business in their early 20s, and all of the people empathizing have some miles behind them. You kids would do well to spend more time listening than talking.

I do work with high value transactions, actually. And I work with clients on the basis that they pay after results have been achieved. If I let my ego get the better of me and tried to suggest otherwise then they would quickly lose trust in our motives and competitors would be all over them.

And I have seen and know people who spent time in India and China before their economies started to boom - because they recognised the potential - despite many others in the industry saying not to waste their time. Who do you think is laughing now and who do you think is chasing the business in those countries?

They are the clients. They are the ones with the money. Forgetting that will make you lose both.

 

[awkwardgenius]

I do work with high value transactions, actually. And I work with clients on the basis that they pay after results have been achieved. If I let my ego get the better of me and tried to suggest otherwise then they would quickly lose trust in our motives and competitors would be all over them.

This is because, as a 20yr old, you do not have the luxury of turning away people who may potentially waste your time. Why? Because you have no track record. You're 20 years old. Jay D has been in his business as long as you've been breathing.

When you have 20 years of experience behind what you do, you can choose to only work with the types of clients who will drop $10k in a heartbeat just to secure your expertise. That's the luxury that experience and a proven track record brings. If Jay were hurting for business, he'd probably take those somewhat riskier clients just to keep his appointment book full. As it stands, I have little doubt that it's exactly as full as he'd like it to be, or he wouldn't be so particular about who he works with.

Everything we do is risk/reward. He's at the point in his career where the risk of working with someone who balks at his retainer is greater than the potential reward, when he has the option of working with the next qualified client who is referred by a trusted associate.

 

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[Vigilante]

It is lazy, arrogant and smacks of complacency.

Yep. That's me.

Your response...is exactly... why people like me build walls.

However, the reason that threads like this have value are not for the people that are too smart to listen. They're for people that will come along later who face the same challenges that Jay does.

When I was 20 I thought I knew everything. Now that I am 40, I surround myself with people that are smarter than me.

That's probably because I am lazy, arrogant and complacent... but I can't dwell on that now as I have to go get ready for the Beer and Pancakes forum.

 

[awkwardgenius]

Yep. That's me.

Your response...is exactly... why people like me build walls.

However, the reason that threads like this have value are not for the people that are too smart to listen. They're for people that will come along later who face the same challenges that Jay does.

When I was 20 I thought I knew everything. Now that I am 40, I surround myself with people that are smarter than me.

That's probably because I am lazy, arrogant and complacent... but I can't dwell on that now as I have to go get ready for the Beer and Pancakes forum.

You...I like you.

 

[Vigilante]

You...I like you.

LOL. Then get your a$$ to Beer and Pancakes next year. There's 49 other people getting ready to gather in a convention hall early this morning... and I will spend the day listening to their streams of consciousness and can make money just on the scraps they throw off of their tables.

 

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[nzerinto]

That being said though, despite me not knowing anything about your business, I have to say that I think you may be missing out on some good clients. Yes, upfront fees avoid a lot of time wasters, but I am pretty sure a lot of clients will consider the attitude arrogant. Being inflexible on payment terms may mean you are losing a lot of business you could otherwise be retaining.

You can do credit checks and a few other things before you enter into these credit terms, so you can really minimise your risk to bad payors.

Coming back to the core of the argument, you are saying that Jay D SHOULD be more flexible with his client payment terms because he might be missing out on some good clients.

The problem is, as you state yourself, you know nothing about his business. Maybe he tried that, and found he wasted a lot of time with tire kickers.

Maybe he just finds doing business this way means he gets to business sooner rather than later.

Maybe, just maybe, he doesn't want more clients.

From a personal point of view I completely agree with Jay D. I'm in a completely different industry, but have found a WORLD of difference in clients willing to pay up front, and those who expect work done first before payment.

The attitude is completely different, with the "pre-payers" easier to work with. They pre-qualified themselves to use my time.

 

[awkwardgenius]

Then get your a$$ to Beer and Pancakes next year.

Too many carbs, man.

I might check it out next year. Definitely in a season of execution right now...spent plenty of time bulking up on ideas and knowledge to get to this point, so my focus is action.

But maybe next year I'll come hang out and see what it's all about, so long as I can get bacon and eggs instead of pancakes. :-D

 

[theag]

I invoice for the consulting( payment due in full at closing). I REQUIRE upfront payment for the retainer. Retainer has nothing to do with whether the client completes a deal or not. A retainer get's you on my calendar. That's all it does. You can ask questions with the retainer but the consulting starts when you sign my 8 page contract.

Even when I invoice, that's to be paid in full at the closing. There is no "due in 30 days". That's not the way I run my business and I don't do what others do or what people "in the field do". I don't have time to run a collections department because when you invoice you have collections, you cannot avoid it. I work and earn my money and I expect to get paid immediately.

Most of the people that I know get aid the same way I do, doesn't matter if they run their own firm or work for Goldman Sacks. People don't invoice they or the company get paid at closing via escrow.



I'm not sure why you think it's weird.

Maybe its just the difference between the US and Germany/Switzerland. Generally we have much less credit card use here, especially for B2B services payments. I worked for financial services companies, both top investment banks and small local boutiques and they all invoiced. Never ever did any company I worked for receive payment via credit card for professional services. Even my fathers online marketing agency doesn't get paid monthly via credit card, but instead direct bank debit to which clients agree via a simple 1 page written form, despite online clients obviously being used to credit cards. So I'm not criticizing what you're doing, just curious about the obvious cultural difference.

Btw, I'm not disagreeing with your upfront fees or other terms of payment. I think they are a good thing and you're absolutely right to enforce them.

 

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[DeletedUser2]

By challenging the status quo for his industry, and literally turning away business, he has built one of the most successful practices in the country and works over 50% less hours for it.

Brilliant!

 

[Astute]

Coming back to the core of the argument, you are saying that Jay D SHOULD be more flexible with his client payment terms because he might be missing out on some good clients.

The problem is, as you state yourself, you know nothing about his business. Maybe he tried that, and found he wasted a lot of time with tire kickers.

Maybe he just finds doing business this way means he gets to business sooner rather than later.

Maybe, just maybe, he doesn't want more clients.

From a personal point of view I completely agree with Jay D. I'm in a completely different industry, but have found a WORLD of difference in clients willing to pay up front, and those who expect work done first before payment.

The attitude is completely different, with the "pre-payers" easier to work with. They pre-qualified themselves to use my time.

But I never said that Jay D should do this or he should do that. I even said "I do not know much about your business". He stated an opinion and I questioned it because I wanted to learn more about how he formed his business, rather than just 'absorbing' it like someone else said, because everything similar I have done is the complete opposite of what he is saying.

So I find it very odd that there is such a defensive, knee jerk reaction from some brown nosing minions who have taken offence on behalf of Jay D.

 

[DeletedUser2]

on any week, on the forum, I get several private messages like... "I saw you talk about X in this thread, Can you look at my website, and tell me if im doing it right, and can you help me with copy, and recommend some people to work with, oh and can you help me raise money as well"

well something like that. UGH.

I like an intro first.

see if they are action takers or action fakers.

then if its the first msg I have from them. the response is I charge 1K and hr. here is my paypal address.

I have no need for for the 1K

but it kills the conversation quick, only a few people have coughed up the money.

and while I actually LIKE mentoring people. I have found I have to be super selective on who I mentor ect. in the past I thought everyone could achieve success, now, at my age 43, I know that certain fundamentals have to be in place in a persons head or it just doesn't work.

what astute thinks is arrogance, is actually discernment, from years of experience. but describing it to him is like trying to explain the color red to a blind person. they simply lack the reference points in their life.

having spent 20 yrs or more perfecting my craft, I totally agree with the OP. and When I meet people who are like that, I certainly ask for references. but I have no problem dropping 20-50K on a retainer, and often do. for the right talent, that has made me more money than not.



Astute, I assume you work for someone else right now, and are following the company directives. and that may explain your point of view,
or you may be in it for yourself, and are open to ALL businesses because your newer.

You have missed the point of about half the posts here, discounting the underlying lesson, with cocky dismissive re-frames, and poorly thought out riposte's.

and in the process alienated your self from some of the brighter people on the forum. some have replied here. some just read and know what kind of person your are right now, and wont bother replying.

Im sorry for the your loss, you dont even know the loss you have just had.


and Like Vig, here I have been building walls as well. because my time is very valuable, and I just cant make any more of it.


Z

 

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[nzerinto]

So I find it very odd that there is such a defensive, knee jerk reaction from some brown nosing minions who have taken offence on behalf of Jay D.

Lol, brown nosing....lol. I have no idea who Jay D is, having never read any of his other posts before. I've simply found the exact same thing he mentions, from my own experience (which admittedly is limited compared to some of the guys here). In one of the previous threads Jack Edwards also mentioned something similar, where he went out of his way to help someone he knew, and gave her advice that he could have charged thousands for. She didn't do anything with that advice, effectively spitting in his face for spending time to try and help. Ergo, lesson learned, will not waste time with time wasters again.....hence building walls, as people like Vigilante and Zendophin have mentioned (whom by the way you may want to pay attention to - they are actually in the "trenches" getting results)

and I questioned it because I wanted to learn more about how he formed his business

no you didn't....you said:

I have to say that I think you may be missing out on some good clients. Yes, upfront fees avoid a lot of time wasters, but I am pretty sure a lot of clients will consider the attitude arrogant. Being inflexible on payment terms may mean you are losing a lot of business you could otherwise be retaining.

No learning there - just voicing your opinion. Nothing wrong with that, but when you discount the views and input of others who have actual experience, you benefit nothing, and everyone just ends up wasting time.

 

[JasonC]

Interesting thread! What I noticed is that most people are psychologically unprepared to move forward. They aren't really willing to do what it takes. They are more concerned about cost than value, even though the value may be tremendously more important than the cost.

And, in business, it's just like a wedding: We set the time/date for the wedding ceremony. We don't schedule around other people's time. We are in charge and therefore we determine the way we want it to happen. If they get offended that we set the date on a day that doesn't meet their schedule, then that's their problem.

In the same way, if they aren't willing to collaborate, then clearly they aren't worth doing business with. It's a great way to sift through the tirekickers so you can more easily find the types of people who will work with you

 

[Jay D]

Hey guys,


this is great. The replies from the more experienced have been awesome. This turned out better than I had anticipated. I started this thread just to contribute and discuss a minor frustrations many of you no doubt have or will encounter as you travel down any lane. Fast or slow.

Good stuff. Thanks for all of the support. You guys are smart and that's why you're here.

 

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[Jay D]

JC,

good analogy. You have to get to a point in your business where you run the show not your clients/prospects. I tell this to people all of the time. People are so scared of prospects and clients.They're afraid to ask for $10K- $15k upfront because the prospect might "walk". Let them walk!


I turn people away all of the time. Do they get upset? They sure do. So people do look at me as if I am some arrogant a**hole. People just don't understand all of the time I have put into learning my craft. I spend at least $5k year on workshops related new financial tools used to finance businesses, tax policy, Mergers, etc....I've got two, 3-5 day workshops this year. That's about $8K not including travel and lodging. My clients get the best, most up to date, cutting edge service from me.

I don't care. I know what works best for me. If you, as a paying client want the best value that I can give you, you have to work on my terms otherwise you'll not get what you're paying for and that's not good for neither of us.

Interesting thread! What I noticed is that most people are psychologically unprepared to move forward. They aren't really willing to do what it takes. They are more concerned about cost than value, even though the value may be tremendously more important than the cost.

And, in business, it's just like a wedding: We set the time/date for the wedding ceremony. We don't schedule around other people's time. We are in charge and therefore we determine the way we want it to happen. If they get offended that we set the date on a day that doesn't meet their schedule, then that's their problem.

In the same way, if they aren't willing to collaborate, then clearly they aren't worth doing business with. It's a great way to sift through the tirekickers so you can more easily find the types of people who will work with you

 

[Pete799p]

I am not sure why this seems to be such a controversial topic. I personally look forward to the day that I can turn away business. This will hopefully mean that I have enough business to not have to waste my time and money working with people that I don't like to work with or will end up not being profitable. In fact I think that the ability to turn away business is a sign that you made it, I know a few small business owners who have stopped taking credit for a few years now. Would they make more money, probably, but as they put it the time it takes to get the money and the "free" work they do end up doing due to bad debt is no longer worth it to them, they have enough $ and they value their time more. I know several RE investors that will routinely walk away from deals that young bucks like me would jump on because the spread isn't big enough. Most would say why walk away from money but they know that they have the connections, knowledge, and cash to find a better return= their time is worth more.

I would love to talk with you about LBOs, mergers, and other business acquisition strategies on the larger side of things because I love to learn everything I can about business but I am in no position to buy a $5mil+ EBITDA business therefore I would not want to waste your time, but I will definitely try and chat you up on the golf course, hopefully I have some knowledge I can pay in trade