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awjt's diary of achieving financial independence.

awjt

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Thanks, this may force me to stop using the liquid layout. I will test the fixed width, in Win and with IE. THANKS. There is supposed to be a thin bar of background always present on the sides, but the red middle expands to fill the window. So if this is failing, I need to work it out, you are dead right on that.

Cooks4.us is supposed to have a French Bistro feel. That's because the target market is a step or two above take-out. Takeout for two people is typically around $25 if you don't order an insane amount of food. Cooks4.us is aiming at more of a personal chef type market, with meals for two in the $50 to $100 range. Not Shi-Shi like going to an actual upscale bistro. But not grubhub or Chinese takeout or pizza. Not that there is anything wrong with takeout. It is what it is, but my site is different. It's aimed at a different need: NICE food at home, that you didn't cook for yourself.

I don't know how many times I've said, damn, I wish I could order takeout that isn't pizza/Chinese/Indian and absolutely LOADED with salt and fat. I wish I could order something healthy... I'd even pay more for it. I'd even pay TWICE as much for it... if I could get it... That's the thought that gave birth to this idea.

As far as how it is intended to make money, the website will take payments from the customer and I take a cut, then send the rest on to the chef. The prices will be set as a collaboration between me and the chef. Chefs that are established with me will need less attention on their pricing and will have freedom to do whatever. But chefs starting out will need to speak with me at length and work with me to get their stuff set up. (I'll scale this into a process for later on and hire help for it.) Restaurants are welcome to sign up too... as long as they hit that target market of mid- to upscale food delivery.

What you're specifically not seeing yet are the meal selectors that I've designed in CSS/HTML and Jscript. They are NICE, and they are coming as soon as I can figure out how to integrate them with Drupal. I've already made them, and they are sitting ready to be worked in. That's why I really appreciated that suggestion to read Ca$hvertising, because from the beginning I had an inkling that what I'm after has this sexy food appeal, and I aim to maximize that appeal.

Anyways, I could go on and on... Thanks for the feedback guys. I will work it in and post up a note in a few days.
 
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WalterBellhaven

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Yeah, unfortunately sometimes the slicker way to do things isn't very cross-browser compatible. I hope it doesn't give you too many problems. If you want a Windows IE/Chrome/FF check in the future, let me know.

BTW, I got this in my email today - looks like there is enough demand for chef service in LA that you already have competition: Running With Forks | Gilt City Los Angeles. Gilt started as a designer clothing closeout place, but has expanded into a sort of higher-end Groupon.
 

awjt

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Interesting on the Gilt people... seems kinda intrusive to have the chef in your house, etc. Although, there IS a market for that. Just seems rather limited. My place is for delivery of already-prepared stuff. A different feel about it. Middle-class normal people don't hire chefs. But middle-class normal people DO eat nice food... on occasion ~ ~ ~LOL

I'll jump on the mods this weekend and post up when done

BTW, CA$HVERTISING is great. It's a MUST-READ for anyone else attempting this insanity.

Thanks
 

awjt

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Things are going... wish I had more time to spend on the rest of the forum, chatting... I unfortunately don't.

Some new developments are that I have another two chefs ready to sign up. And I'm working on a few more... and developing developing developing... I'm gaining a more solid footing in the various Drupal APIs, and squaring away my dev/production environments, w/ version control. Some seriously geeky fun going on here... LOL

This website is going to fly, one way or another! Soon as I turn my first dollar, I will think about contracting out some parts for improvements. All in all, the landscape for my listing service is very promising and it is still very exciting to be working on this project. People are genuinely interested when I talk about it and I am learning so much. As MJ said in his book, it really is about the journey.

That's because even if this thing doesn't take off in a big way and stays small, I learned stuff that I can apply universally to ANY website idea that I might think up later on. I foresee a collection of different websites, all serving info and services that people want.

Anyways, I have a job to get back to... and more evening web work... (Things are going well with the wife and family, too, btw. I have achieved a balance of hard relentless work and time with them... also part of the learning curve here.)

I'll post up more stuff in about a week.
 
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kwerner

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Just noticed this thread. Skimmed through it a bit and noticed that you mentioned Drupal is a big headache for you. I know how you feel. Knowing what I know now, I wish I had went with Wordpress, haha.

But if you're still having problems, just post a job on Elance / Odesk. There's a bunch of talented people on there that can take care of technical issues like that for you while you focus on creating the business.

Good luck!
 

awjt

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Thanks, kwerner. I thought about using Wordpress, but it didn't seem powerful enough to do what I want, or as extensible. I *have* complained a lot on this thread... well, as my wife will attest, I do complain a lot. But that's because complaining is fun! If I didn't get anything out of it, I wouldn't do it.

So thank you for the reference to Elance/Odesk. I'm doing the first part of my site solo, to get it up and running, then I'm going to think about farming out pieces for improvements after version 1.0 is complete. That way I'm never in the dark on how to fix something if it breaks. But yes, at some point I will no longer have the luxury of spending hours behind the screen if I want the biz to fly. I will HAVE to spend many hours doing CEO things, and a lot less coding. Good advice, thank you for it.
 

awjt

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Some good news. Saturday and Sunday, I spent oh around 20 hours working on the site. I have gotten a key piece of the functionality in place: entering the zip, bringing up a list of the chefs that deliver to it, and then the click-thru to the chef's page of meals for sale. Right now, just in terms of a fancy database query and some text returned. No static pages. All dynamic content, so that later on it is scalable. Trying hard to do it right from the start.

If you want to try it, enter 03755 in the zip search box.

Already, I've noticed some places where Drupal really falls short... no db optimization is built in. Drupal makes separate tables for every entity. That's pretty dumb, and causes you to have to go on 5 different db queries to make the associations necessary for finding a piece of info based off a search string. So, I'll be writing some Perl and cron jobs to handle some important back-end DB flattening work, so that my Drupal queries can be kept simple. Complexity for complexity's sake is just plain stupid. Otherwise, I am loving Drupal... extremely powerful. This thing can do anything!

Stuff like that is where I am still at. Learning the trade, brick by brick. You should see my code. It looks like a cross between Frankenstein, the Three Stooges and Bozo. Just kidding. I've cleaned it up, commented and optimized it a lot. But sure does feel klugey compared to other stuff I've done in the past.

So the overall good news... I am feeling confident that I'll meet my goal of full functionality by the end of the month. And I bet I'll get the styling most of the way there too... excellent. HOPEFULLY TURNING COIN BY LATE SPRING!!!

:banana:
 
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kwerner

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Checked out your site, and in my opinion you seriously need to just hire out the design and development. It will look and function way better. Don't get caught in the trap of learning a skill instead of learning how to run a business.

For design you can check out 99designs.com, for development Odesk / Elance.

Let me ask you this, have you even tested this concept yet?? For example, how do you plan to get customers / traffic to the site and sign up businesses that will take and fulfill the orders? This is the stuff you need to be focusing on first. If you haven't tested the concept yet, do a super simple wordpress website + adwords campaign. If you have already tested it, focus on marketing strategies and signing up businesses, let someone else build the website.

Just my 2 cents ...from someone who's been down this road before.
 

awjt

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Don't get caught in the trap of learning a skill instead of learning how to run a business.

I'm willing to take this at face value as good advice. At some point things must take flight and not stay in development. However, I do fail to see the value difference here that you're suggesting. Isn't learning to run a business a skill? Isn't building a business in a new market also developing a skill? I.e., the skill of building a business from the ground up vs. the skill of "running a business" that is based on outsourcing.

Also, do you have examples of sites that you've built/outsourced? I'd love to take a look.
 

kwerner

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I'm willing to take this at face value as good advice. At some point things must take flight and not stay in development. However, I do fail to see the value difference here that you're suggesting. Isn't learning to run a business a skill? Isn't building a business in a new market also developing a skill? I.e., the skill of building a business from the ground up vs. the skill of "running a business" that is based on outsourcing.

This reminds me of the story from Rich Dad Poor Dad, where Kiyosaki said he had bought his first investment property...

One day he had a tenant call him, said that the garbage disposal in his kitchen sink was broke, so he went over to the property and although he had never worked on a garbage disposal before, he was determined to learn how. He thought to himself, "This should be easy". Long story short, he spent 4 hours between trying to figure out how to take the disposal apart, running to Home Depot to buy a new one, and installing the new disposal. The new disposal cost him $80.

A day later he talked to his handyman and mentioned how he spent 4 hours and $80 to fix the tenant's garbage disposal. The handyman said, "You should have just hired me to fix it. It would have only taken me 30 minutes, and because I get a contractor's discount at Home Depot, I could have got you the exact same garbage disposal for $50."

He said from that lesson he learned the importance of letting people that were more skilled than him, do skilled work. His job was to learn how to grow his business (buying more investment properties).

You're kind of in a similar situation. You've spent what, a couple hundred hours on your site? Had you hired out the design and development, you could have been 100% done with it by now and making money. (This is, of course, assuming that you have tested the market already and received a positive response from customers and clients.) I'm not at all trying to be a dick by saying this, I'm just trying to save you a lot of time and trouble.

If you haven't yet, I would highly encourage you to read the book "The E Myth, Revisited". It focuses on the same issue, but in more detail.

Cheers! :cheers:
 
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awjt

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It's a useful analogy. Now the property owner knows how to fix a broken garbage disposal, knowledge he didn't have before. Hard-won knowledge, because all good knowledge is trial-and-error.

It's not a mistake to want to know how to fix your own garbage disposal, or code your own website. The real folly would be never turning the corner and putting all that knowledge to work in running a biz.

I had considered using a system like odesk/nettemps/elance before I started. But I decided not to go this route because I needed to know as much as I can about Drupal. What I lacked last year, I had to give myself over the last few months. For a lot of reasons.

The biggest reason is that even though it seems slow, learning it myself is the fastest way to actually have a website up and running to my own specifications, without interference of having to manage human capital to get there to the first plateau and being in the dark about how I got there.

IOW, last November I didn't even know it was called a garbage disposal. Now I know what it's called, what it does, where it lives, how much it costs, which models are available, which models are appropriate for my situation, how to fix them, and what to tell the guy I hire to fix it when I call him.

Now I know exactly what to tell an Odesk contractor, when I get there to that point of using these guys.

Now I can feel comfortable enough to look away from the coding when I want to, so that I can concentrate on other pressing matters, like ... running the business.... and doing the first tests... I have three test markets I'm unleashing this beast in, in April, so testing is coming soon.

Anyways, I appreciate the input.
 

kwerner

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Some people just want to learn the hard way I guess. But I'll give you feedback anyways.

It's a useful analogy. Now the property owner knows how to fix a broken garbage disposal, knowledge he didn't have before. Hard-won knowledge, because all good knowledge is trial-and-error.

Yes, how brilliant. Now instead of having the knowledge and experience of putting in offers on houses and learning how to buy them at fifty cents on the dollar, he instead knows how to fix a garbage disposal. Time well spent, huh?


learning it myself is the fastest way to actually have a website up and running to my own specifications

Yeah, instead of having a website built that looks and functions like this one: eat24hours.com, you have a website that is not even close to operational, have zero businesses signed up for your service, and zero customers visiting your site.

Look, you could build your own house if you wanted to. You could spend months / years learning about plumbing, electrical, code requirements, structure, etc. but why the hell would you want to when it's far easier, cheaper, and will result in a more solidly constructed house, having a professional contractor build it for you??


I have three test markets I'm unleashing this beast in, in April, so testing is coming soon.

This is the biggest mistake of all. Test first, then build your money site, not the other way around. What if you spent 500 hours working on your baby, only to find out after it's finally completed that you:

A) Can't convince businesses to join your service?
B) Can't get traffic to your website?
C) Aren't going to be able to charge enough to make a profit?
D) The competition has already locked up the market by having the businesses sign contracts giving them exclusivity to this type of advertising (far fetched, but could happen)?
E) All of the above?

This is why you test first.
 

awjt

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How can you test something that doesn't exist? You can test something "in theory," but then it's not really a test now is it?

As far as this "wasting time" concept, why would I learn karate when I could just buy a gun? Oh, wait, because I like learning karate. Oh wait, I like learning how stuff works: flipping houses and fixing garbage disposals. Oh wait, I love to write programs and learn how stuff works and make websites. Oh wait, different people have different interests. Oh wait, some people are tuffguys on the interwebs...

Still waiting on one of your own website examples to check out...
 
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kwerner

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How can you test something that doesn't exist? You can test something "in theory," but then it's not really a test now is it?

You test it by putting out a bare-bones, no-frills, wordpress site that will take you an hour or two max to create.


As far as this "wasting time" concept, why would I learn karate when I could just buy a gun? Oh, wait, because I like learning karate. Oh wait, I like learning how stuff works: flipping houses and fixing garbage disposals. Oh wait, I love to write programs and learn how stuff works and make websites. Oh wait, different people have different interests. Oh wait, some people are tuffguys on the interwebs...

Learning stuff just because you like to and running a fastlane business are not necessarily the same.


Still waiting on one of your own website examples to check out...

I don't share my website on public forums, that's why I don't use a sig link.
 

MJ DeMarco

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I'm not particularly happy to deliver opinionated news, but I took a look at the site.

My first impression? It looks "do it yourself". It looks like something I'd see in the late 1990's. There's nothing wrong with taking a road of "do it yourself" but if you are, you must look professional and fit into the design aesthetics that people expect in 2012.

Examine ANY website with substantial usage patterns and mimic them. Do ANY OF THEM have wallpaper backgrounds? NONE OF THEM. And there's a reason why ... this design implementation was out nearly a decade ago. Do ANY OF THEM use fonts with low readability? NONE OF THEM.

I don't want to stomp on your dream but you'll be fighting a losing battle when every user hits your website and immediately thinks "Oh, this is a guy doing this out of his parent's basement with no obvious experience" -- that is what it looks like to me -- this is what you need to avoid to have a chance.

Look at Eat24Hours and compare the differences. I'd rate that site a 7 on design. Not the best but good enough to test and working model and adjust. IMO, yours is a 1. If I have a restaurant, I'm not working with a website that looks like a 1 and possibly the ownership is working out of a garage. You have to portray a better image to have a chance.

Again, I'm not trying to be a dick, but trying to save you the pain from things that will prevent you from moving forward. If you "test" with the site you have now (based on GUI) you will more than likely fail.

You have the energy and the drive -- but energy and drive can't save a poorly designed website from working.

SOLUTION: Examine well trafficked websites and reverse engineer the design. No need to reinvent the wheel.

Good luck.
 

awjt

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OK, philosophical differences aside, good points, both of you. I signed up on odesk for help this morning and I'm contacting developers. I'm also hunting around for a good graphic designer to take a swipe at the look and feel that I'm after... If no one is good on odesk, then I'll be off to nettemps and elance, to enlist the help. Kick in the a$$ received. Thank you. Sincerely, thank you for calling it like you guys see it. I need significant help to get it flying.

Keep in mind that grubhub and eat24 are a different thing than what I'm after. These websites think that they can put text menus up on the web and people will consider that service more convenient than taking the paper menu stapled to the Chinese takeout bag and picking up the phone??? I do not see the particular draw other than just as a fancier online Yellow Pages. On a $20 takeout, they might get a buck? Times how many transactions? Look at their Alexa stats and draw your own conclusion. Where is the actual value that they are adding? I do not see it.

But look around. Where are all the local chefs online who deliver? Yes, there are a scant few sites. One catering outfit in Palo Alto, CA. A couple other "shell" websites. Nothing active that I have found. No universal sites that are not caterer-specific. No generalization of chef-to-home delivery. If you have found differently, please speak up. I have been looking around for months and I have not seen this.

I believe there is a significant market for fresh-cooked, mid-range priced meals delivered. What's to test? Every single person I talk to about this, I specifically ask, "would you order from a website like this, with nice pics of food even if it was higher priced than Chinese takeout?" Everyone says yes. There are even total strangers on this thread saying they'd like to order from it when it's up and running. You could dismiss it as flattery. I see it as clear indication of the need for my website.

I also have two chefs ready to sign up, and I'm working a third. They have pics, they have been cooking are looking for a way to sell their meals. They are waiting for ME... to get off my a$$ and finish this thing... goddammit...

This is with my Grandma's wallpaper website. Which is intended to look like a bistro. If you've been to bistros, they are not all metal and shiny white counters. Some of the best bistros are pretty retro looking. Anyways, yes, my thing falls flat and doesn't get that... yet... Need help.

Anyways, a huge message was received. "Get this thing going faster. & Make it look nicer. Examine well-traveled sites and reverse engineer." I'm trying hard to meet those goals. All minor differences aside, thank you for taking the time to look at it and offer hard criticism. Message received.

~AWJT
 
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kwerner

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I believe there is a significant market for fresh-cooked, mid-range priced meals delivered. What's to test? Every single person I talk to about this, I specifically ask, "would you order from a website like this, with nice pics of food even if it was higher priced than Chinese takeout?" Everyone says yes. There are even total strangers on this thread saying they'd like to order from it when it's up and running. You could dismiss it as flattery. I see it as clear indication of the need for my website.

Good to hear this, but test this though before you get too invested in it. Get actual, paying, customers.

This is how you can test it, step by step:

1) Buy a new domain name for your test site
2) Create a super simple wordpress site (with paypal checkout or something like that)
3) Install some analytics software (I'd recommend piwik over google analytics, but that's just me)
4) Set up an adwords account for your test site
5) Do your keyword research for "buy phrases" that people will use when searching for the service you offer (make sure they get enough traffic too)
6) Run a couple hundred dollars worth of adwords ads for your target keywords

See if you get a few people to order off your test site. If even one or two people are willing to order off your no-frills wordpress site, then you may have a market to sell to and you can consider your test verified. The conversion rate, bounce rate, etc. are irrelevant (well, as long as the landing page doesn't look like total crap, that is). Just see if you can get one or two people to buy.

Trust me on doing this. There's a big difference between what people SAY they will do and what they are actually willing to hand over their money for. Hell, I'll even give you a free $100 adwords voucher if you actually follow through and make the test site.

Good luck!
 

kwerner

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P.S. When I mention a super simple wordpress site, here's a few examples: Ecommerce WooThemes. They're not ideal for your situation of course, but just wanting to show you that you can test out your idea with a theme similar to one of these.
 

awjt

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Man, YOU are relentless. But so am I. So thanks for your input. I will make a basic Wordpress site with food on it for people to order. I have a google voucher, but if you wanna toss one my way I won't say no. I'll let you know when I'm at that point.

Do you mean the chef has to follow through and actually deliver the shit, right? Or do you mean, make the site with all the buttons and stuff looking like a full-fledged business and when they click "purchase" it doesn't work? But I collect those clicks? Is that what you mean?
 
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kwerner

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Do you mean the chef has to follow through and actually deliver the shit, right? Or do you mean, make the site with all the buttons and stuff looking like a full-fledged business and when they click "purchase" it doesn't work? But I collect those clicks? Is that what you mean?

Might as well send the chef / business some customers during your testing, even if you're not charging them anything at first, just to show them that your service can produce results (customers) for them. Of course it will be the chef's / businesses responsibility to follow through and deliver once you send them the order.

And to make it easy, when a customer orders over the website you may just want to call in their order to the restaurant. Not sure how all that would work exactly, but I'm just saying that you don't need to have all the functionality set up to send the customer's order in to the chef and pay them yet. You're just testing to see if the concept is viable.
 

awjt

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Quick Wordpress site coming... hopefully this weekend... got 1 applicant on oDesk... contacting better ones, though...

AND making good progress on main site...
 

awjt

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Haven't posted in a while, but laying low working this thing. I hired out some of it, and am making progress. All advice about the design has been considered and I am grateful. Thankful to the people who took the time to look and offer criticism. It just means work smarter, work a little harder and don't give up. I'm not... There WILL be a result at some point and I will come here to share when it's ready.

Still enjoying the journey :) And the business education at the hands-on school of hard fricken knocks. I wouldn't have it any other way.
 
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kwerner

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Did you ever make the test site?
 

awjt

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In progress...

Oh, and, I've gotten additional advice from someone who has actually made money on the InterWebz. He said that your advice, kwerner, is solid. But that my intuition is correct too. Specifically that a test site that doesn't do something like what I'm after is not really a true test. "So definitely test, but have something that roughly resembles what you're trying to do. Doesn't have to be perfect, just an approximation."

So that's where I'm at, and talking with as many restaurant/ food world people as I can. Most are enthusiastic, and also skeptical about lining up reliable delivery and are concerned about competition in their area with similar styles of food. Some don't like my pricing. They want lower prices, which will be a constant source of negotiation down the road, I'm sure. Otherwise, enthusiasm and willingness to participate.
 

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I agree with kwerner, and not necessarily you have to code something that is approximate to what you want. Maybe is better to have that test and handing all requests by hand. Sending emails by yourself, contacting the users by yourself, instead of having a software system doing it for you... Until you start to get paying customers.
 
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