Canadian health care: Time to face reality

[wordwarrior]

lol bunch of 18 year olds that haven't gone through life, talking about cashola and how they want to keep it in their pockets... oh shit son, you shared an anecdote where a doctor made a mistake??? oh shit son, thank you for sharing that. cause you know, humans don't make mistakes....... oh that was "free health care fault" lol ok.. wow. share a story that makes sense... For ever 1 story where somewhere he shits on universal health care, there are literally millions who beat cancer, and survived because of universal health care.

Lots of Canadians have died on waiting lists waiting for "free" cancer treatment. What's your point?

 

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[daivey]

Lots of Canadians have died on waiting lists waiting for "free" cancer treatment. What's your point?

?
What's yours?
lots of Americans have died getting zero treatment... Difference is it didn't also bankrupt them.


By the way, Canadian doctors make similar to their US counterparts to some extent. GPs are lowest paid, while specialists make the most. They don't work for free, they work on billable hours just like every other job out there.
The doctors making real money are the ones that are opening up clinincs and have 10 doctors working underneath them.

you genuinely have zero clue how the medical system works in Canada. The only thing you and posse has done is throw anecdotes in here about why you think Canadian medical system is trash, yet have zero facts or knowledge about anything this subject.

So keep up with your humble brag about how you are going to be an entreprenur making trillions so you can pay for your own healthcare.

good luck.

 

[Tourmaline]

@daivey In the spirit of discussion I'd love if you actually answered my questions, but it's okay if you don't too

 

[wordwarrior]

you genuinely have zero clue how the medical system works in Canada.

I've lived in Canada for almost 45 years (my whole life) and my mother worked as a nurse and then a health care administrator. Check *your* facts.

 

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[wordwarrior]

?
What's yours?
lots of Americans have died getting zero treatment... Difference is it didn't also bankrupt them.

Meanwhile these problems are solved in the 29 countries with better health care systems than Canada

So keep up with your humble brag about how you are going to be an entreprenur making trillions so you can pay for your own healthcare.

Go ahead and find a post where I came anywhere close to doing this. Good luck!

 

[Successful Steve]

lol bunch of 18 year olds that haven't gone through life, talking about cashola and how they want to keep it in their pockets... oh shit son, you shared an anecdote where a doctor made a mistake??? oh shit son, thank you for sharing that. cause you know, humans don't make mistakes....... oh that was "free health care fault" lol ok.. wow. share a story that makes sense... For ever 1 story where somewhere he shits on universal health care, there are literally millions who beat cancer, and survived because of universal health care.

While sitting in your momma's basement you should research some facts:

Mortality rate due to cancer

Has Canada’s mortality rate due to cancer improved? Why is Canada’s cancer mortality rate so much higher than those of peer countries? How can the cancer mortality rate be decreased?

www.conferenceboard.ca

‘ In 1997, for example, the U.S. and Canada experienced an almost equal number of deaths due to cancer, at 178 and 177 per 100,000 people, respectively. But the U.S. rate has since decreased much more quickly, resulting in a considerable gap between Canadian and U.S. cancer mortality rates.’

Why The US Has Better Cancer Survival Rates Than The Rest Of The World

Is it true that the USA is better at cancer treatment than other countries, or is this an artifact of the statistics? This question was originally answered on Quora by David Chan.

www.forbes.com

Most Cancer Survival Rates in USA Better Than Europe and Canada | Wesley J. Smith

One of the excellent aspects of the current American health care system is that most people can get . . . .

www.firstthings.com

You insult us by calling us 18 year olds yet I bet you've never been to many places in this world.

The point is that both healthcare systems are bad in the US and Canada. Not arguing that.

It's the fact that we are even bothering to respond to your nonsense of willing to give the government more of your hard earned money while you have less chance of surviving cancer in Canada compared to your neighbor the US where we give less of our money to the government and we have higher cancer survival rates just shows that you are a Pleb, not us. Actually that's the definition of an idiot - giving more of your money to the government while you are more likely to die.

If I were you, I'd quit now because you are making yourself look really bad.

 

[Bryan James]

This thread is getting heated! Alls I know is that the government tends to really sucks at doing their job. I read somewhere a while back that Buffett, Bezos and some other billionaire are planning on creating a healthcare system of their own which might turn out to be interesting...

 

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[luniac]

Seems to me
1)People who simply don't take care of themselves are a burden on the healthcare system
2)The "system" is actively manipulated by Big Pharma, Big Food, etc which perpetuates a lot of the problem
3)its all artificially overpriced to hell, probably getting a tylenol from a hospital gonna charge you 500 bucks or something. Its absolutely retarded. Why is it all so artificially overpriced?

Insulin does not cure diabetes, it treats the symptom of high blood sugar but does LITERALLY nothing to cure diabetes.
Doctors routinely prescribe more insulin for worsening blood sugar symptoms and when the blood sugar levels appear within normal range again, they're like "all good ur diabetes is under control once again"
I'd LOL but this is actually tragic as fuk.

I support free healthcare, if there's anything that tax payer dollars are worth to spend on, its gotta be healthcare for everyone.
I believe its a checkbox for "civilized society".
But this is being gamed and corrupted by malevolent forces.

 

[wordwarrior]

There's a disturbing false dichotomy perpetuated by many, but not all, of the posters in this thread:

1) Health care should be private because if anybody has a health problem it's their fault, they should have to pay for it and health-conscious people should be rewarded for their decisions, and the government screws up everything it touches.
2) Health care should be completely public because corporations overcharge for health care and the government is a completely benevolent entity that will magically (with the aid of massive amounts of taxpayer dollars) make health professionals ignore their own self interest for the common good.

I disagree fundamentally with both perspectives.

On the one hand people have to get paid, and medical professionals get paid a lot, especially the specialists. This is why hordes of specialists left Canada for the US after the 1984 Canada Health Care Act (and we never got them back). If you make something free, demand for it will spike. This has resulted in massive waiting lists for many procedures.

On the other hand, nobody should have to go bankrupt if they happen to contract an illness that's prohibitively expensive to treat. This is where governments can and should help out.

I think it's safe to say the 29 countries with better health care systems offer a compromise between the US and Canadian systems.

Also, here's an interesting out of the box proposal for catastrophic health coverage by an obscure US presidential candidate:

John Delaney Won't Be President, But His Health Care Proposal Is Worth a Look

He might not be polling well, but his proposal on health care draws on work from prominent libertarian economists.

reason.com

 

[Azure]

There is a lot of misinformation here.

Canadian doctors make similar to their US counterparts to some extent

This is not remotely true. In some specialized fields, the compensation is halved, with workload trending higher in Canada.

https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.2010.0204

they work on billable hours

This is incorrect as most provinces operate on a "per service" visit that is set at the provincial level - ie a doctor operating a state of the art clinic in Toronto is mandated by OHIP to receive equal reimbursement as a doctor operating above a convenience store in the middle of nowhere. Many provinces also restrict the number of billable services per visit. As a result of this, areas with a below average patient ratio have had to resort to strict 1 issue per visit rules, which has led to instances of very preventable deaths.

Here's a good breakdown of what a doctor in Ontario gets paid for regular services:

What Doctors Charge vs. Other Common Services - shawn whatley md

You'll note that the fees are fairly low - the most common is about 33 dollars gross. From that, receptionists, transcriptionists, rent, utilities, disposables, equipment breakdown etc.

These fees are updated periodically, so there is a wide range of services that will at times dip below the cost of administering - in other words, the private contractor doctor is required to pay out of his own pocket to perform that potentially life saving ECG.

The average rate of increase over the past 2 decades has been below inflation.

What's My Doctor Billing to See Me? - shawn whatley md

Do you ever wonder, "What's my doctor billing when she sees me?" Blog examines the most common fee in family practice and how fee cuts impact patients.

shawnwhatley.com

This is why hordes of specialists left Canada for the US after the 1984 Canada Health Care Act

The brain drain began much earlier around the 60s with the peak occurring in the 90s. Approximately 10,000 Canadian doctors are currently practicing in the US - our current physician count stands around 75,000-85,000 in all of Canada I believe. That's a significant figure, particularly when doctor shortages are very common across the entire nation.

There is quite likely going to be another flood of South/Euro bound Canadian educated medical staff, as issues with our bogged down and antiquated residency system have led to record years of medical students not being placed in residence, despite spots being open.

Add to this the impending rise in medical costs per capita due to an increasingly aging demographic, a reduced tax base due to disproportionately high retirements relative to income progression and you have a perfect storm of pressures that our already strained systems will not be able to handle.

The easiest solution- on paper at least - is to increase legally allowable private service offerings. This will decrease the burden on the public system tremendously, reduce the brain drain, and increase the quality of service provided in the public system - possibly allowing the inclusion of previously uncovered things like basic dental or eye care.

The problem with that unfortunately lies 100% in our geography. Being the US neighbor, we often draw comparison to them - even in cases like health care, where a comparison to Germany is almost analogous - and so it's pretty easy for one political side to demonize any attempts to increase privatization by using exaggerated US situations like bankruptcy, death etc and coercing the association of private medicine with doom and gloom - despite the fact that all of the best health care delivery systems in the world have significantly higher percentage of privatization than we do.

 

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[Saavedra]

when your society is literally dying

1/3 of Americans are clinically obese. you meant to say that society is eating itself to death. which is double wrong for your argument about economics, since there is nothing cheaper than not eating...at all.

 

[Saavedra]

Imagine if the healthcare sector had had the same deregulation as the IT sector the last decades. Where we have Internet, exponentially better hardware and software, soon even quantum computers... meanwhile on the other side of the fence we are still cutting people inside out manually because anything requires 10 years approval time. When we could have had nanorobots already. The tragic thing is all the ignorants claiming we are saving lives when in reality we are destroying them due to cost of opportunity.

Otherwise pretty spot on on on the 'disease handling' instead of 'healthcare' and the collusion between big pharma, big food and big insurance on making you sick on purpose to make bucks.

By the way, for the key warriors in here, none of that changes in the USA independently of which wing of the same bird you vote in, you are screwed since you live in an deep-state oligopoly. So just watch your health, because it will never be cheaper to take care of it in the future so as long as you don't start a revolution to get rid of bipartisan-ism and the deep-state.

 

[Kevin88660]

You make a lot of incorrect assumptions about my post. Where exactly did I say that I expect other taxpayers to cover my medical bills if I got hit by a car or had some other catastrophe? Oh, right, I didn't. So please don't go putting words into my mouth.

Perhaps insulin was a poor choice of a drug example so you got me there, but my point I was making is that people need to take some personal accountability for their health, rather than treating their bodies like shit with no mind to the consequences. If, as you say, the government would cover the bill for complications resulting from Type 2 diabetes (a preventable and curable disease) then you are proving my point. I also don't think abortions should be free, unless it's a result of rape, so there's something else you can demonize me for.

FYI, I happily donate to others that are less fortunate through a few different organizations, but no, I don't want to be forced by the government to pay for other people's healthcare, especially when a lot of what is viewed as "health care" are not things that I support. I also don't want other people to be forced to pay for mine, so go ahead and call me selfish, just don't call me a hypocrite.

I'm really not sure how you question the "socialist system" being "the answer" and in the same sentence advocate for free worldwide healthcare. How exactly are you differentiating between those? The government is notoriously inefficient and wasteful in pretty much everything they do, and healthcare is no different, so I'm not exactly sure who you think is capable of running this system of "free, worldwide healthcare" or where you think the funds will come from? Sounds like a nice Utopian dream but not based in reality at all. If you have an actual outline of how this would work, then feel free to share.

Cancer and Heart Attack have high genetic causes, especially cancer.

The idea that only “unfit people who eat junk food” fall sick is Very misleading.

 

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