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RANT Canadian health care: Time to face reality

wordwarrior

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This opinion may not be popular among some of the Canadians on the forum, but I think it's time to call a spade a spade: The health care system in Canada (and especially in my province) is unacceptably bad and throwing more money at the problem isn't going to fix it. Politicians who compare our system solely to the one in the United States are misleading Canadians and deflecting from addressing our system's deficiencies, as there a number of health care systems in Europe and other parts of the world that provide much better outcomes than Canada's.

 

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guy93777

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as there a number of health care systems in Europe and other parts of the world that provide much better outcomes than Canada's.

France indeed but that won't last forever. Peope are not serious. they don't take care of their health and then ask society for help.

and we can't tell them because they will say " but i am free to do what i want . this is the country of the statue of liberty ! "

Freedom doesn't mean you can do what you want . it means cleverness can do his personal mission in life without being stopped by stupidity and ignorance.

is this the case in this world ? not at all from an initiate point of view. people think they are free

but they don't even know what it means.



.
 

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The gov't ruins everything it touches. The Free Market rules all!
 

Monica Rose

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Healthcare isn't healthcare. If a name meant anything, it would be called disease management care. As a dual citizen who has lived in both Canada and the USA at times (currently US based) both systems are majorly flawed in my opinion. I don't want to put blame on people for having health problems, but a system that does nothing substantial to reward people for maintaining good health through diet and exercise is just shit. When I spend more of my budget and time on quality food and exercise, why should I be paying for John and Sue's insulin medication if all they do is sit on the couch watching TV, drinking diet coke and eating doritos. If you're not going to punish people for bad habits, because it's not politically correct, then you should at least reward them for good ones. Sorry, guess I had a little rant of my own there
 

EVMaso

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I had a different experience with our (Canadian) healthcare system.

Late last year I dislocated my shoulder. It popped back in, but eventually the pain of the trauma made it so that I could not move the entire left side of my upper body. I had to call someone to drive me to the hospital and needed help getting in the car. Every turn and bump in the road sent lightning stabs of pain through my body.

It was Friday night and the closest hospital was one of the major ones that serve many different municipalities, so they have all the equipment and staff needed to deal with just about anything, but also means they are really busy all the time. I went into Triage, where a nurse assessed the severity of my injury and put me into a queue. I was in the waiting room with all sorts of people in various states of distress, and from a look around I could see that many were in way worse shape than me (if I didn't move, I could look just normal). As a healthy 30-something male with a non-life threatening injury, I hunkered down for the worst case scenario of waiting into the wee hours of the next morning until I would get treatment.

But nope, I was in and out, doctor examination, x-rays, all tests done, within 4 hours, and it didn't cost me anything.

The no cost was the biggest thing for me. I have friends in the US who will actively avoid medical treatment for fear of cost. To me that's not a good way to live, because your health is everything. In that opinion article the writer states that doctors and surgeons in the US give their numbers to patients for round-the-clock access. Do you know why? So that the doctors can charge more money for more treatments. Even one special treatment can put someone on the brink of bankruptcy.

Pat Flynn (Smart Passive Income) said on one of his older podcasts that when his wife gave birth to their first child, she or the baby had complications and was in hospital for a few days after the birth. He said if he did not have his solid job and did not have help from others, the cost would have been too much for him (this was pre-internet money). My sister's baby had complications when she was just born and was also in hospital for a few days after birth. It all eventually went well and didn't cost her family anything.

There's no perfect system, and there are probably some cases where wait times and treatment go wrong, but overall I think our system is all right.
 

wordwarrior

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I had a different experience with our (Canadian) healthcare system.
Which province do you live in, if you don't mind my asking?

In Quebec, they've allowed private clinics because of this supreme court decision, which doesn't apply to the rest of Canada:


Canada and the US are very close to each extreme in terms of health care systems. The first is prohibitively expensive in terms of time, the second in terms of money. A system targeted toward the public good with enough private sector discipline and disincentives to abuse would be a workable compromise.
 

daivey

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Healthcare isn't healthcare. If a name meant anything, it would be called disease management care. As a dual citizen who has lived in both Canada and the USA at times (currently US based) both systems are majorly flawed in my opinion. I don't want to put blame on people for having health problems, but a system that does nothing substantial to reward people for maintaining good health through diet and exercise is just shit. When I spend more of my budget and time on quality food and exercise, why should I be paying for John and Sue's insulin medication if all they do is sit on the couch watching TV, drinking diet coke and eating doritos. If you're not going to punish people for bad habits, because it's not politically correct, then you should at least reward them for good ones. Sorry, guess I had a little rant of my own there
You have no idea what you're talking about. The government doesn't pay for insulin shot.. Not in Canada. You are very misguided in your post and spreading misinformation. This is what a conservative government wants you to fight about on Facebook with half truths.

Yes, low income people qualify for certain drug benefits, but the vast majority don't get free insulin like your post implies. Sure, if they got into shock, or half a major issue brought upon by diabetes, then the hospital bill is covered by the public system

The problem with your point of view is this:
one day when you get hit by a car when you are "jogging" and listening to your music... Why should I pay for your surgery??? I didn't tell you to go jogging at 5am on the street... It's not my fault you can't be perceptive of your surrounding.....

Exactly. You want the health care when it happens to you, but you don't want to pay when it happens to someone else. So it's a selfish perspective.

That's not to say that socialist system is the answer either. But the one thing I will advocate is free world wide healthcare. No one should suffer any pain, or injury, without treatment.. REGARDLESS of their class.
You should be happy that you're healthy. Those that are not wil likely live shorter unhappy lives..


it goes both ways.
 

daivey

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This opinion may not be popular among some of the Canadians on the forum, but I think it's time to call a spade a spade: The health care system in Canada (and especially in my province) is unacceptably bad and throwing more money at the problem isn't going to fix it. Politicians who compare our system solely to the one in the United States are misleading Canadians and deflecting from addressing our system's deficiencies, as there a number of health care systems in Europe and other parts of the world that provide much better outcomes than Canada's.

Go to europe or USA then since it's so much better. Let us know how it turns out for you.
 

Monica Rose

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You have no idea what you're talking about. The government doesn't pay for insulin shot.. Not in Canada. You are very misguided in your post and spreading misinformation. This is what a conservative government wants you to fight about on Facebook with half truths.

Yes, low income people qualify for certain drug benefits, but the vast majority don't get free insulin like your post implies. Sure, if they got into shock, or half a major issue brought upon by diabetes, then the hospital bill is covered by the public system

The problem with your point of view is this:
one day when you get hit by a car when you are "jogging" and listening to your music... Why should I pay for your surgery??? I didn't tell you to go jogging at 5am on the street... It's not my fault you can't be perceptive of your surrounding.....

Exactly. You want the health care when it happens to you, but you don't want to pay when it happens to someone else. So it's a selfish perspective.

That's not to say that socialist system is the answer either. But the one thing I will advocate is free world wide healthcare. No one should suffer any pain, or injury, without treatment.. REGARDLESS of their class.
You should be happy that you're healthy. Those that are not wil likely live shorter unhappy lives..


it goes both ways.
You make a lot of incorrect assumptions about my post. Where exactly did I say that I expect other taxpayers to cover my medical bills if I got hit by a car or had some other catastrophe? Oh, right, I didn't. So please don't go putting words into my mouth.

Perhaps insulin was a poor choice of a drug example so you got me there, but my point I was making is that people need to take some personal accountability for their health, rather than treating their bodies like shit with no mind to the consequences. If, as you say, the government would cover the bill for complications resulting from Type 2 diabetes (a preventable and curable disease) then you are proving my point. I also don't think abortions should be free, unless it's a result of rape, so there's something else you can demonize me for.

FYI, I happily donate to others that are less fortunate through a few different organizations, but no, I don't want to be forced by the government to pay for other people's healthcare, especially when a lot of what is viewed as "health care" are not things that I support. I also don't want other people to be forced to pay for mine, so go ahead and call me selfish, just don't call me a hypocrite.

I'm really not sure how you question the "socialist system" being "the answer" and in the same sentence advocate for free worldwide healthcare. How exactly are you differentiating between those? The government is notoriously inefficient and wasteful in pretty much everything they do, and healthcare is no different, so I'm not exactly sure who you think is capable of running this system of "free, worldwide healthcare" or where you think the funds will come from? Sounds like a nice Utopian dream but not based in reality at all. If you have an actual outline of how this would work, then feel free to share.
 

EVMaso

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Which province do you live in, if you don't mind my asking?

In Quebec, they've allowed private clinics because of this supreme court decision, which doesn't apply to the rest of Canada:


Canada and the US are very close to each extreme in terms of health care systems. The first is prohibitively expensive in terms of time, the second in terms of money. A system targeted toward the public good with enough private sector discipline and disincentives to abuse would be a workable compromise.
I'm in BC.

I'm not sure I agree that our system is "prohibitively expensive in terms of time". My own experience was quite quick and smooth and didn't seem unreasonable at all (it actually surprised me how quick I was in and out).

Two months ago my father had a stroke scare. He was fine, but was admitted into the ER for a checkup. He was in and out, multiple tests, consultation with doctor, in about 8 hours. No cost. That seems reasonable to me.

Like I stated earlier there are the odd cases here and there where someone ends up waiting extra long for whatever reason, but I think those things can be expected to happen from time to time in a system as complex as a country's healthcare system. And to be honest when I was younger I often wondered about how much our healthcare was costing us and whether it was worth it. Obviously it can be better run, like every other government organisation everywhere in the world, but after my sister's and mine and my father's experience, I just can't hate our healthcare system.
 

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wordwarrior

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Go to europe or USA then since it's so much better. Let us know how it turns out for you.
I don’t recall saying that I preferred the US system. My point was that the US is used as a strawman to detract from the point that other systems exist besides Canada and the US.

As for Europe, I have several European coworkers who have expressed frustration with our systems. There are other reasons not to go to Europe besides health care.

Also, I find myself frustrated with “go to X” statements to shut down debate that I’ve seen far too often in both countries and on each sides of political spectrum.
 

wordwarrior

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I'm in BC.

I'm not sure I agree that our system is "prohibitively expensive in terms of time". My own experience was quite quick and smooth and didn't seem unreasonable at all (it actually surprised me how quick I was in and out).

Two months ago my father had a stroke scare. He was fine, but was admitted into the ER for a checkup. He was in and out, multiple tests, consultation with doctor, in about 8 hours. No cost. That seems reasonable to me.
First of all, from what I’ve heard from multiple sources, BC has the best health care system in Canada. It’s certainly better than Quebec’s.

Secondly, several of my relatives have not been fortunate, as one spent days getting passed around the system.

Critical care seems to be a strength to the system. One of my relatives had a heart attack and they were placed at the top of the queue. For routine care, there’s a lot room for improvement.
 

Kevin88660

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Healthcare isn't healthcare. If a name meant anything, it would be called disease management care. As a dual citizen who has lived in both Canada and the USA at times (currently US based) both systems are majorly flawed in my opinion. I don't want to put blame on people for having health problems, but a system that does nothing substantial to reward people for maintaining good health through diet and exercise is just shit. When I spend more of my budget and time on quality food and exercise, why should I be paying for John and Sue's insulin medication if all they do is sit on the couch watching TV, drinking diet coke and eating doritos. If you're not going to punish people for bad habits, because it's not politically correct, then you should at least reward them for good ones. Sorry, guess I had a little rant of my own there
Private insurers are coming up with incentives to lower health insurance premiums for more exercise. They have to wear a watch and clock some walking distance.

A lot of the diseases today are due to genetics. Surely lifestyle play a part too.
 

daivey

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You make a lot of incorrect assumptions about my post. Where exactly did I say that I expect other taxpayers to cover my medical bills if I got hit by a car or had some other catastrophe? Oh, right, I didn't. So please don't go putting words into my mouth.

Perhaps insulin was a poor choice of a drug example so you got me there, but my point I was making is that people need to take some personal accountability for their health, rather than treating their bodies like shit with no mind to the consequences. If, as you say, the government would cover the bill for complications resulting from Type 2 diabetes (a preventable and curable disease) then you are proving my point. I also don't think abortions should be free, unless it's a result of rape, so there's something else you can demonize me for.

FYI, I happily donate to others that are less fortunate through a few different organizations, but no, I don't want to be forced by the government to pay for other people's healthcare, especially when a lot of what is viewed as "health care" are not things that I support. I also don't want other people to be forced to pay for mine, so go ahead and call me selfish, just don't call me a hypocrite.

I'm really not sure how you question the "socialist system" being "the answer" and in the same sentence advocate for free worldwide healthcare. How exactly are you differentiating between those? The government is notoriously inefficient and wasteful in pretty much everything they do, and healthcare is no different, so I'm not exactly sure who you think is capable of running this system of "free, worldwide healthcare" or where you think the funds will come from? Sounds like a nice Utopian dream but not based in reality at all. If you have an actual outline of how this would work, then feel free to share.
Wait, rape abortions should be free? I thought you said you don't want socialist medicine. You can't have it both ways. Oh, that's right, if you were raped, and your insurer didn't cover you, you would expect society to pick up the tab.
That's not hypocrisy though? Oh, I understand, when it's "emotional" to you, then it's ok for it to be covered. But when it's emotional to someone else, no, they should take care of their fat-bodies.

Funny, you went on a tirade about how I put words in your mouth.... Yeah, sure.. except you then went and proved my point... My point being that: when it happens to someone else, F-them, they should pay for it.
When it happens to me, government should pay!

Yeah ok. If that's not the definition of hypocrisy I don't know what is.
 

daivey

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Private insurers are coming up with incentives to lower health insurance premiums for more exercise. They have to wear a watch and clock some walking distance.

A lot of the diseases today are due to genetics. Surely lifestyle play a part too.
bro, don't waste your time. Most of these hardcore conservatives and republicans don't even know what genetics are, or what it means.
They read a few lines of crap on the internet and now know how diabetes work down at the molecular level...

There will never be a perfect free healthcare system. There will always be inefficiencies. However, technology is helping with that. Cutting costs, and making it affordable. Yeah, it's going to cost money and it's not perfect, but it's better than having people die of shit that can be fixed.

these guys don't get economics. when your society is literally dying because they can't afford healthcare, next thing to do is turn their sights on you. You can't be a castle in the ghetto. Of course, these metaphors will fly over their heads and claim I'm putting words in their mouth, but it's the reality..

This me,me,me, worried about how rich they going to get because of taxation taking away their cash. I'd rather pay more tax and live in a society where my neighbor doesn't die of cancer, even if it means I pay a bit more in taxes.
 

The Abundant Man

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Everyone should be like Okinawa. Longest living people on the planet yet they have no health care. More excuse for me to eat sushi
 

Successful Steve

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I'd rather pay more tax and live in a society where my neighbor doesn't die of cancer, even if it means I pay a bit more in taxes.
Cancer is growing at an enormous rate and doctors can’t do anything about it except give chemo and operate, only for the tumor to grow back, along with Diabetes, Cardiovascular disease, obesity and all other diseases are growing exponentially- so you wanting to be taxed more when money is not solving the health crises as it is just doesn’t make sense. You make fun of conservatives in your post for not thinking properly but clearly you have that issue. Btw, a poll was done in America and conservatives give way more money to charity than liberals, so you may want to check your rant.
 

windchaser

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This opinion may not be popular among some of the Canadians on the forum, but I think it's time to call a spade a spade: The health care system in Canada (and especially in my province) is unacceptably bad and throwing more money at the problem isn't going to fix it. Politicians who compare our system solely to the one in the United States are misleading Canadians and deflecting from addressing our system's deficiencies, as there a number of health care systems in Europe and other parts of the world that provide much better outcomes than Canada's.

I am curious, what other countries do you consider to have a better system? The grass is not greener in the other side.
 

Monica Rose

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Wait, rape abortions should be free? I thought you said you don't want socialist medicine. You can't have it both ways. Oh, that's right, if you were raped, and your insurer didn't cover you, you would expect society to pick up the tab.
That's not hypocrisy though? Oh, I understand, when it's "emotional" to you, then it's ok for it to be covered. But when it's emotional to someone else, no, they should take care of their fat-bodies.

Funny, you went on a tirade about how I put words in your mouth.... Yeah, sure.. except you then went and proved my point... My point being that: when it happens to someone else, F-them, they should pay for it.
When it happens to me, government should pay!

Yeah ok. If that's not the definition of hypocrisy I don't know what is.
I see that we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. That's ok. Lively, and respectful debate is a great thing. You take care, and I wish you good health and fortune!
 

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@wordwarrior what's your plan to make this a non-issue for yourself and your family? You mention that BC is better, have you considered moving there?

I used to be frustrated at the Australian, and later Canadian taxation and healthcare systems. I used the healthcare system once every 5 years at best, and somehow every experience cost the earth and got poor service. I saved for rainy days and worked hard, so never needed welfare. I did not fit the profile of someone who benefits from socialism.

Today I live in a country with an extremely good healthcare system (albeit no-frills) while paying very little for that privilege, let alone around 30% less tax than before.

Payments into that system are covered by the semi-passive income from a website I built and on top of this, I self-insure in a very low risk income generating dividend portfolio as well, in the event that this system changes one day.

I ask because, if there's one thing I've learned, ranting online doesn't seem to do anything other than raise blood pressure. I used to vote for things like this as well. Either can take a lifetime to change.

Giving up my voting rights has been the most powerful thing I've ever done. Now I vote with my actions, especially how I spend my money and with my feet.
 

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wordwarrior

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I am curious, what other countries do you consider to have a better system? The grass is not greener in the other side.
Any of the 29 countries that rank better than Canada? Most of them are democracies. (BTW, the U.S. is lower in the list)

 

GPM

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Throwing more money at a situation that won't improve it? But that is the governments job is it not? They don't know how to produce, only how to spend.
 

daivey

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Cancer is growing at an enormous rate and doctors can’t do anything about it except give chemo and operate, only for the tumor to grow back, along with Diabetes, Cardiovascular disease, obesity and all other diseases are growing exponentially- so you wanting to be taxed more when money is not solving the health crises as it is just doesn’t make sense. You make fun of conservatives in your post for not thinking properly but clearly you have that issue. Btw, a poll was done in America and conservatives give way more money to charity than liberals, so you may want to check your rant.
what does charity have to do with health care? Socializing a medical system is not charity. Make sure people don't die is not a charity.

Your post overall makes zero sense.
So because diabetes, heart disease, can't be cured...... that means it shouldn't be treated because it's expensive?
What are you trying to say?

you should check your facts.
 

daivey

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I see that we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. That's ok. Lively, and respectful debate is a great thing. You take care, and I wish you good health and fortune!
I just repeated what you said back at you.
"in cases of rape, it should be covered".

therefore, you believe in socializing the costs of medicine.... you can't have it both ways.
 

Successful Steve

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what does charity have to do with health care? Socializing a medical system is not charity. Make sure people don't die is not a charity.

Your post overall makes zero sense.
So because diabetes, heart disease, can't be cured...... that means it shouldn't be treated because it's expensive?
What are you trying to say?

you should check your facts.
You are a proponent of universal health care.

You think it’s okay for the government to tax its citizens more and more money to pay for other people’s healthcare.

You said that you’re willing to pay more so your neighbor doesn’t get cancer. Yet cancer is growing at an exponential rate and all that money your giving your government for ‘free’ healthcare isn’t working. So I may be ‘12’ as you said and your the adult supposedly yet you’re the one who’s willing to give up all your money to the government in the form of ‘taxes’ because as we all know the ‘government’ is so great at utilizing other people’s money yet cancer is growing exponentially.

Let’s look at the real causes of diseases- smoking, alcohol, drugs, pollution, processed foods, plastic, fast food, stress, depression, etc. So by your argument you are okay paying more money in taxes so it can be ‘free’ and ‘universal’ so that the drugees, the obese, the people who refuse to take care of themselves can benefit off it. Sounds like you are very smart.... the government loves sheep like you
 

Successful Steve

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what does charity have to do with health care? Socializing a medical system is not charity. Make sure people don't die is not a charity.

Your post overall makes zero sense.
So because diabetes, heart disease, can't be cured...... that means it shouldn't be treated because it's expensive?
What are you trying to say?

you should check your facts.
Let me share a story with you... I don’t need to check my facts... I have real first hand experience with your little free, universal healthcare- I was in a motorcycle accident where I had to have 9 reconstructive surgeries on my face.

I had 2 doctors, one forgot to pull the glass out of my face and totally misdiagnosed my shattered nose as a broken nose thus affecting surgery time. The other dr almost operated on the wrong side of my face and messed up the very first surgery.

So much for your lovely ‘socialized’ ‘free’ ‘universal’ healthcare... why did the drs do a bad job? Bc they don’t care! Under socialized medicine they all get paid the same or substandard so why care about your patients?

So I went to a top notch dr that was very expensive. He was the best in the business and it cost me and my family a lot, but you know what my face looks better now then what it did before the accident.

So you can waste your money on giving it to the government to get your free substandard healthcare. I’ll do whatever I can to only pay the required taxes necessary and keep the rest for another unfortunate incident.

Nothing in life is truly free. The government won’t save you but keep on paying all your money into taxes since I’m 12 and you’re the supposed smart one...
 

Tourmaline

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bro, don't waste your time. Most of these hardcore conservatives and republicans don't even know what genetics are, or what it means.
They read a few lines of crap on the internet and now know how diabetes work down at the molecular level...
:frown:

There will never be a perfect free healthcare system. There will always be inefficiencies. However, technology is helping with that. Cutting costs, and making it affordable. Yeah, it's going to cost money and it's not perfect, but it's better than having people die of shit that can be fixed.

these guys don't get economics. when your society is literally dying because they can't afford healthcare, next thing to do is turn their sights on you. You can't be a castle in the ghetto. Of course, these metaphors will fly over their heads and claim I'm putting words in their mouth, but it's the reality..

This me,me,me, worried about how rich they going to get because of taxation taking away their cash. I'd rather pay more tax and live in a society where my neighbor doesn't die of cancer, even if it means I pay a bit more in taxes.
Do you believe people have the right to demand money from someone that they did not earn?

Why is someone entitled to someone else's money to help pay for their healthcare?
 

Successful Steve

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:frown:



Do you believe people have the right to demand money from someone that they did not earn?

Why is someone entitled to someone else's money to help pay for their healthcare?
Amen

This guy is just another keyboard commando. Talks tough but is a sheep going into the slaughter thinks his little government and medical system will save him. As I explained above socialized healthcare is awful.

Sure it works in Iceland where the population is only 300,000 and they eat heathy and live in a beautiful environment.

I’ve lost way to many people to the medical industry. Ultimately it’s up to each person to fix their own health. Universal healthcare will not save you
 

Tourmaline

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eh he just sounds like a typical leftist...all feels and no principles

we need them for a balanced society so...what you gonna do...

Truly, needing insurance, taxpayer paid healthcare, whatever, is only because too many people are on the F*cking sidewalk or slowlane.
 

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