Why copywriting is a bunch of Bull$h^t and you shouldn't learn it...

[AndrewNC]

So let me tell you a story...

Let's call him Joe...

Joe spent the past six months "learning" how to write long form sales copy. Went through multiple courses, spend SIX MONTHS learning tips and tricks of writing the best sales copy you can think of.

He was trying to learn copy, but wasn't taking any practical action...so I decided to help him out. We partnered up on one of my magazines that I don't have time to grow myself, and I gave him the task of emailing CEOs of companies to get their product advertised in front of our 170,000 readers.

"Dear Friend,

Boy, do I have the opportunity of the lifetime for you...but only for a limited time so you have to act now!"

^THIS was the beginning of the sample email he drafted (to a CEO). It only got worse from there.

The moment I saw "Dear Friend", I puked in my mouth.

And it happened at the worst possible time. I just finished eating some [HASHTAG]#vegan[/HASHTAG] bacon. Too much info? I think it's that new vegan Tai Lopez diet...

ANYHOW - back on track.

"Dear Friend!?"

TO THE CEO OF A BUSINESS.

He said "what do you think?"

My reply? "TEST IT!"

Oh, and here is a sample email that you can test it against. 50 emails of his "dear friend" and 50 emails of something along the lines of.

"Hey!

I'm from __________ magazine and we feel that your product would be a great fit for our 170,000 readers.

Here's my # and email to talk more if you're interested"

something like that...it took me 5 seconds to write - and just offered them something instead of trying to sell.

A few days ago, Joe messages me "Andrew - I sold $450 worth of ads to people in the first 2 weeks!"

Awesome! Which email worked best?

"Nobody replied to the first one."

So here is the thing about sales copy...

I spent the last 2 years fascinated by unconscious influence and persuasion....Sales copy, NLP, and some other crazy stuff you haven't even heard of.

I not only wanted to improve my business, but my dating life....and then I learned one thing that truly WORKS...Using this one thing - the following unfolded (some dating example).

• In August 2015 - 3 days before I was leaving Scottsdale to drive up to Seattle, I meet a girl on tinder. Within an hour of meeting her, she said she was going to quit her job, voluntarily repot her car, and move to seattle with me for 3 months.
• In December 2015 - Within 30 minutes of meeting a girl - She was about to sell her car, quit her job, and leave her 2 year old son behind with her mother to travel the world with me!
• Might close a 5 figure per year contract with a large company with almost zero effort...

In both dating instances I said no (and I only use those examples to show how powerful this is..)....but the important thing to note is this...I DIDN'T USE ANY OF THOSE SALES TRICKS TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.

In all three instances, I had something great, and other people wanted a part of it! They sensed the energy behind it. 99% of people's lives are BORING from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to sleep.

If you and your brand can be that POSITIVE ENERGY that livens up their day.....they will sense that and want part of it. For the girls, they sensed my freedom and adventure. For the business....they sensed a large reach for his business...

Yes, I am not arguing that the principles behind the sales psychology work - they do.... and you can learn those very quickly. (but not always in the internet marketing spammy way).

When walmart puts on a discount - they play into scarcity - but the discount ends when they say it ends.

But the important thing to learn here is that people can unconsciously sense when you have something AMAZING you are about to offer them.

Does anybody realize @SinisterLex 's first lesson on his EPIC sales copy thread?

Day 1 Challenge

Really Help Someone – When I say help someone I’m not talking about convincing them that you can help them. It’s not about making them believe you can help them. It’s about actually helping them. But most of the people reading this will miss that part. That’s why I keep getting messages asking questions like “How do I get them to believe I can help them?”

Going forward - I feel that I'm going deeper into the phase of - telling stories and creating that positive emotional experience for people - so I am always the positive energy that sticks out during their day. For business relationships - I'm going in to build deeper relationships and make friends (even with customers - which I do that anyway -I don't even view my customers as customers).

Be real. Be authentic. And don't spend MONTHS trying to master ONE small part about business.

I didn't even know sales copy when I acquired my first 900,000 app downloads...

How can YOU and your brand be the light that brightens your customer's day?

 

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[BaraQueenbee]

BOOM.

*drops mic*

 

[AndrewNC]

More thoughts - They say that people are driven by emotion...

The thoughts in people's minds trigger emotions. So the copywriting is used to create thoughts with the purpose of triggering emotions.

But what if you can get the emotions going right away with the energy behind it? People sense it...

 

[AndrewNC]

BOOM.

*drops mic*

Picks mic back up, hands it to you, so you can go sing!

 

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[BaraQueenbee]

Picks mic back up, hands it to you, so you can go sing!

Well played Andrew, well played <3 <3 <3

 

[jazb]

I loved that read. thanks man

 

[Digamma]

Great post. I agree completely.

I think there are a lot of benefits in learning copy.

You learn to use simple words and to use graphic, specific language.
You learn to think in terms of benefits to the customer.
You learn to think of their objections and handle them.
You learn to choose an angle and target that angle.
You learn to use "you" a lot and put what the customer is interested in first.
You learn a lot of stuff.

However, people tend to mindlessly spout the formulas and constructions they see in books/courses.
Most of these example come from old newspaper ads, and they are trite and trite and trite.
And at this point in 2016 they scream SPAM! SPAM! SPAM!

To conclude:
I think there is a lot of value in learning the basics of persuasive writing.
I don't think there is a lot of value in going deep into learning to write advertising copy.

Be a persuasive communicator, don't be a copywriter.

PS: I had a chuckle thinking about selling advertising space as a "limited time offer".
CEO thinking process: What are you going to do, close up shop after running two ads? Do these guys think I'm a moron?
That is, of course, if by miracle they overlook the "Boy".

 

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[JAJT]

Your friend wasn't a good Copywriter - that doesn't devalue the act of learning it. There isn't "one thing" to learn.

This guy you speak of basically memorized a few tricks from those before him and used them inappropriately and to the wrong audience.

Copywriting is nothing more and nothing less than selling with words. It needs to motivate your audience to do that thing you want them to do. Emailing CEOs is a lot different than selling face cream on an infomercial or getting clicks to your news blog.

I agree that the bottom line is helping people and being honest and adding value but you don't sell a car like you sell a phone like you sell a house like you sell yourself.

Every book and article on writing copy starts with "who is your audience?" and apparently your friend skipped that part.

 

[Deleted35442]

This needed to be written. Thank you. There are actually gold threads marked on adopting "sales copy skill" if you can even call it that; to make a lofty $50k a year. This sort of talk belongs in a Freelancer community, not an Entrepreneur forum.

If you write such great sales copy: get a product, brand it, market, scale, profit. Next.

 

[Jon L]

I'll add my two cents. If you're not good at copywriting, instead of spending 6 months learning it, HIRE SOMEONE TO DO IT FOR YOU.

 

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[jsk29]

Sounds like a case of tunnel vision rather than "copywriting is bullshit".

Dan Kennedy's Marketing Triangle:
______Message______
Market_______Media

Send the right message to the right market using the right media

In this case, it was the WRONG message to CEOs using Email (or right message to wrong market - either way there was a mismatch there).

Sounds like he copied out a lot of Gary Halbert Ads by hand but didn't keep in mind many of them were newspaper ads targeting broad audiences via print.

Over excited to finally release built up knowledge and get some action... resulted in loss of common sense and a premature ending.

edit: ugly triangle..

 

[Supa]

Awesome post, will be implemented immediately.

 

[amp0193]

Going forward - I feel that I'm going deeper into the phase of - telling stories and creating that positive emotional experience for people - so I am always the positive energy that sticks out during their day.

Thanks for giving me something to think about. My self-esteem is very high, and I generally think very positive of myself and my life. However, when I communicate with people, I'm not always the most positive person and come off kind of sarcastic, etc. I think this is an area I can work on for sure.

I was a private vendor show event last week, and this dude who had just moved into town walked into the hotel. For an hour, he went around and chatted up the company owners behind each booth, with a laugh and a smile on his face. He didn't know anyone, didn't know anything about the event, and wasn't looking to get anything from anyone, but that didn't matter. He ended his conversation with me with a "if there's ever any way I can help you out, just let me know", but there was such sincerity in this statement that I knew he meant it. Some people just have you smiling as soon as they start talking... it's amazing, really.

For business relationships - I'm going in to build deeper relationships and make friends (even with customers - which I do that anyway -I don't even view my customers as customers).

I accomplish this by listening, really listening, to the underlying concern in the customer emails that get sent to me. They don't really care that the product arrived damaged, or that there was some sort of mixup. They just want me as the business owner to feel sympathy for their personal situation, and show a genuine care in making it up to them. People want attention, and they want to feel important.

 

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[IGP]

This needed to be written. Thank you. There are actually gold threads marked on adopting "sales copy skill" if you can even call it that; to make a lofty $50k a year. This sort of talk belongs in a Freelancer community, not an Entrepreneur forum.

If you write such great sales copy: get a product, brand it, market, scale, profit. Next.

The point of those threads is that you can get started doing "something". They are geared towards people who are at the beginning of their entrepreneurial journey. 50K/year is just an arbitrary number. What if it was 50K/month? Would that make it more "entrepreneurial"?

Not to mention, that you could say the same thing about any specific skill set.

Programming
PPC Advertising
Writing Sales Copy
Facebook
Amazon
Building a Website
Branding
Sourcing products

You don't need to learn any of those things to be an entrepreneur.

And yet the irony is that there are people who have made millions by having laser focus in each of these areas.

The tool is NEVER the issue. It's the person wielding the tool!

 

[Deleted35442]

The point of those threads is that you can get started doing "something". They are geared towards people who are at the beginning of their entrepreneurial journey. 50K/year is just an arbitrary number. What if it was 50K/month? Would that make it more "entrepreneurial"?

Not to mention, that you could say the same thing about any specific skill set.

Programming
PPC Advertising
Writing Sales Copy
Facebook
Amazon
Building a Website
Branding
Sourcing products

You don't need to learn any of those things to be an entrepreneur.

And yet the irony is that there are people who have made millions by having laser focus in each of these areas.

The tool is NEVER the issue. It's the person wielding the tool!

This is bullshit. I like how you carefully mischaracterized what I said. Doing "something"? "Something" definitely sounds Slowlane, and the thread I was referring to was Slowlane, advocating people to spend all their time on sales copy to GET HIRED on Freelance websites (not to mention the time drain writing and applying to them).

If you want "something" get a job. Are you dense? $50k a year is not an arbitrary number. Show me who makes $50k a month writing other peoples shit on Freelance websites. Go make $50k a month on a Freelance site of your choosing and report back, champ. End of.

 

[IGP]

This is bullshit. I like how you carefully mischaracterized what I said. Doing "something"? "Something" definitely sounds Slowlane, and the thread I was referring to was Slowlane, advocating people to spend all their time on sales copy to GET HIRED on Freelance websites (not to mention the time drain writing and applying to them).

If you want "something" get a job. Are you dense? $50k a year is not an arbitrary number. Show me who makes $50k a month writing other peoples shit on Freelance websites. Go make $50k a month on a Freelance site of your choosing and report back, champ. End of.

First off, chill the F*ck out!

Secondly, it is geared towards people who are Slowlane but want to get out of it.

Everyone has to start somewhere. Some people need that 50K to get started in business or to make the move to the Fastlane.

Lastly, I don't do freelance work. So, I have no idea if people can make 50K/month on free lance sites or not. However, that's not the point.

What I do know is that there are "copywriters" that have made hundreds of millions of dollars for themselves and their partners. And they didnt wake up one day and know how to write copy.

So, put that in your pipe and smoke it, Champ!

 

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[Alan LT]

I'll add my two cents. If you're not good at copywriting, instead of spending 6 months learning it, HIRE SOMEONE TO DO IT FOR YOU.

A lot of people are cheap and want to cut cost. They have no clue how much they're hurting their time and business.

 

[Deleted35442]

First off, chill the F*ck out!

Secondly, it is geared towards people who are Slowlane but want to get out of it.

Everyone has to start somewhere. Some people need that 50K to get started in business or to make the move to the Fastlane.

Lastly, I don't do freelance work. So, I have no idea if people can make 50K/month on free lance sites or not. However, that's not the point.

What I do know is that there are "copywriters" that have made hundreds of millions of dollars for themselves and their partners. And they didnt wake up one day and know how to write copy.

So, put that in your pipe and smoke it, Champ!

I have better things in my pipe than this shit.

The thread was Slowlane and suggested applying for Freelance jobs. But you've long derailed actually wanting to accurately cite the context you're referring to. If you start somewhere that isn't a business: Get a job. A thread marked Gold advocating for people to go out hunting down sales copy jobs on Freelance websites is just wasteful. You'd be better off getting a job at someone elses startup writing copy if you want to "Start somewhere" and at least you'd be more reputable having that experience if you're raising funding later on from VCs than "Oh, hustled on eLance for copy jobs"

For someone that doesn't do Freelance work, you sure have some chip on your shoulder about my comments on what I perceive to be a useless/backwards thread for a forum of budding entrepreneurs. The copywriters you refer to weren't on Freelance websites, that I promise you.

 

[Selfy]

From this forum, I turned into the fiction writer path, so I hang out with writers, the majority of which are freelancers. I could never understand why these types would write these articles for other people instead of building the niche-site on their own. But on the upside, they are paid ok, and have enough work to go around. Me on the other hand, as an author, own my product, along with the risky downside if my story tanks either to a multitude of things.. but I can also hit binggo. There is a balance.

If you're heading down the writer's path then choose wisely: freelancer or author or outsourcer.

Either way, they are all entrepreneurs. There is no such thing as a "pure" entrepreneur (whatever 'pure' means) in the publishing business -- it's all inclusive-- down to the editor flagging her services on fiverr to the craft book hawkers to the ghost writer on jobsites needing practice. As O'Leary says on sharktank, "there is no balance in this life."

 

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[AndrewNC]

There is no such thing as a "pure" entrepreneur

The famous artist...is an entrepreneur.
Singers.
Celebrities.
Athletes.
Writers.

Anybody who is living their dreams and pushing forward for something greater day in and day out (in my opinion) is an entrepreneur.

 

[Webebe]

It is like the comparision "who you are" and "what you do".
An alpha male gets women, the others try to learn pickup lines.
Entrepreneurs help, others learn to sell.

 

[Raoul Duke]

This needed to be written. Thank you. There are actually gold threads marked on adopting "sales copy skill" if you can even call it that; to make a lofty $50k a year. This sort of talk belongs in a Freelancer community, not an Entrepreneur forum.

If you write such great sales copy: get a product, brand it, market, scale, profit. Next.

The point of those threads is that you can get started doing "something". They are geared towards people who are at the beginning of their entrepreneurial journey. 50K/year is just an arbitrary number. What if it was 50K/month? Would that make it more "entrepreneurial"?

Not to mention, that you could say the same thing about any specific skill set.

Programming
PPC Advertising
Writing Sales Copy
Facebook
Amazon
Building a Website
Branding
Sourcing products

You don't need to learn any of those things to be an entrepreneur.

And yet the irony is that there are people who have made millions by having laser focus in each of these areas.

The tool is NEVER the issue. It's the person wielding the tool!

This is bullshit. I like how you carefully mischaracterized what I said. Doing "something"? "Something" definitely sounds Slowlane, and the thread I was referring to was Slowlane, advocating people to spend all their time on sales copy to GET HIRED on Freelance websites (not to mention the time drain writing and applying to them).

If you want "something" get a job. Are you dense? $50k a year is not an arbitrary number. Show me who makes $50k a month writing other peoples shit on Freelance websites. Go make $50k a month on a Freelance site of your choosing and report back, champ. End of.

First off, chill the F*ck out!

Secondly, it is geared towards people who are Slowlane but want to get out of it.

Everyone has to start somewhere. Some people need that 50K to get started in business or to make the move to the Fastlane.

Lastly, I don't do freelance work. So, I have no idea if people can make 50K/month on free lance sites or not. However, that's not the point.

What I do know is that there are "copywriters" that have made hundreds of millions of dollars for themselves and their partners. And they didnt wake up one day and know how to write copy.

So, put that in your pipe and smoke it, Champ!

I have better things in my pipe than this shit.

The thread was Slowlane and suggested applying for Freelance jobs. But you've long derailed actually wanting to accurately cite the context you're referring to. If you start somewhere that isn't a business: Get a job. A thread marked Gold advocating for people to go out hunting down sales copy jobs on Freelance websites is just wasteful. You'd be better off getting a job at someone elses startup writing copy if you want to "Start somewhere" and at least you'd be more reputable having that experience if you're raising funding later on from VCs than "Oh, hustled on eLance for copy jobs"

For someone that doesn't do Freelance work, you sure have some chip on your shoulder about my comments on what I perceive to be a useless/backwards thread for a forum of budding entrepreneurs. The copywriters you refer to weren't on Freelance websites, that I promise you.

You can go from being a freelancer to offering a productized service.

https://casjam.com/why-productized-service/
http://wpcurve.com/productized-service/

 

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[The Grind]

Go read a website and sales page built by someone who doesn't know how to write copy...

I'd rather be in a sequel of Children Of The Corn and get tortured by 8 year olds with pitch forks for 3.5 years while sitting on a hot plate...

...that's turned up all the way!

Too much?

 

[Deleted35442]

You can go from being a freelancer to offering a productized service.

https://casjam.com/why-productized-service/
http://wpcurve.com/productized-service/

You can also go from a job to a productized service. Except a job requires less effort than applying to new Freelance jobs just to get workflow. Waste of time and serves no place in this Forum. You go write copy for someone else's business. I'll run my own.

If you want to be Slowlane - Get a job. This "Gold" marked thread and 'learning' copy is just asinine.

 

[IGP]

You can also go from a job to a productized service. Except a job requires less effort than applying to new Freelance jobs just to get workflow. Waste of time and serves no place in this Forum. You go write copy for someone else's business. I'll run my own.

If you want to be Slowlane - Get a job. This "Gold" marked thread and 'learning' copy is just asinine.

You do realize that the person that actually owns this forum and runs this forum marked the thread gold, right?

So, while you may think whatever you want, you are clearly wrong that it serves no place here.

 

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[Shades]

Isnt copy shifting away a bit from the BS at this point? Just talk like a normal person. You can still incite a emotional response without the typical spam copy like "with just one simple secret". Im sure there are people that fall for that stuff still. But I think more and more people see right through all that junk for what it is, spam speech. Makes the bullshit alarm ring in your head. If I see people writing in that manner about a product it devalues the product to me. I think its more likely they are selling a shitty product with "fancy" copy.

Have a good valuable product. Convey your message by speaking like a normal human and not a internet used car salesman.

 

[AndrewNC]

You can still incite a emotional response without the typical spam copy like "with just one simple secret".

There's plenty of emotion built up in this thread since I first posted it

 

[MJ DeMarco]

A thread marked Gold advocating for people to go out hunting down sales copy jobs on Freelance websites is just wasteful.

Wow, I had no idea you were so butthurt over that GOLD thread, a thread which I marked GOLD.

I would go into detail about WHY it was marked GOLD but what's the point, you've made up your mind that any Slowlane or "trade for time" endeavor is one gigantic waste of time, even if you're 17 years old with zero skills, zero money, and zero experience.

 

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[Growth & Learn]

Wow, I had no idea you were so butthurt over that GOLD thread, a thread which I marked GOLD.

I would go into detail about WHY it was marked GOLD but what's the point, you've made up your mind that any Slowlane or "trade for time" endeavor is one gigantic waste of time, even if you're 17 years old with zero skills, zero money, and zero experience.

Great copywriting techniques are simply tools for getting your message across. It doesn't need to be done in a douchey way. Most people do it in a used car salesmen way but they miss the point. It's an art form and a study of the human psyche on the highest level.

If copywriting doesn't work then I've got a big pile of money to give back. I also have thousands of customers just by luck.

I'll also tell my employees, contractors they no longer have a job because it's just not working.

 

[Growth & Learn]

Great copywriting techniques are simply tools for getting your message across. It doesn't need to be done in a douchey way. Most people do it in a used car salesmen way but they miss the point. It's an art form and a study of the human psyche on the highest level.

If copywriting doesn't work then I've got a big pile of money to give back. I also have thousands of customers just by luck.

I'll also tell my employees, contractors they no longer have a job because it's just not working.

I should also add that from my personal experience...the ROI on the time I've spent learning how to sell has been incredibly fast lane.