Ongoing Terrorist Attack on Canadian Parliament

[Jake]

The more problems they have, the more they will be unable to get new recruits

Have any proof to back up that claim?

Full Definition of MARTYRDOM
1
: the suffering of death on account of adherence to a cause and especially to one's religious faith

The problem when fighting people who don't care about dying is that when they lose their friends and family members they are even more willing to sacrifice their own life.

I'm by far an expert on the matter but what I do know is that when a high value target got struck or a drone strike went wrong and took out civilians and kids..we felt it. Burn a Koran, they're going to set off a SVBIED at the gates or send a rocket in that takes out a bus stop full of 18-20 yo's.

So..obviously I believe that ISIS needs to be stopped but to continue to fight symptoms instead of the root cause of the matter is pretty ridiculous.

 

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[Mike Kavanagh]

you get rid of pockets

Beating ISIS is not a military endeavor - look at how such groups are defeated in history. You go after the money.

Kinda hard to get rid of the pockets when they have backing of the richest people in the Middle East.
Not to mention the numerous amounts of arms dealers making a "killing" from this war.

I am not talking about convincing a million guys that their religion is wrong

I never said their religion is wrong, that's about as ignorant of a thing to say as it is to try to do. I said they are uneducated and can't even read their own holy book. They get told by their elders that this is the way when in reality, if they read their book, it doesn't promise anything to them for going to war and dying in it.


Unchecked this could get out of hand. Bombing isn't going to do anything. Another war isn't going to do anything.
Winning the hearts and minds of the civil populace is the only way to win besides education.

Shooting and bombing them only reminds them of what they already have. They would rather stay with the terror they know then the terror from the West.

There is no philosophy in war. There is only theory, action, and reaction.

 

[Writer]

Winning the hearts and minds of the civil populace is the only way to win besides education.

There's no time for that, that's the problem.

 

[Writer]

Have any proof to back up that claim?

: the suffering of death on account of adherence to a cause and especially to one's religious faith

The problem when fighting people who don't care about dying is that when they lose their friends and family members they are even more willing to sacrifice their own life.

Martyrs are limited. Not many people want to die, especially for a crippled entity.
History is the proof. Not many people are ready to die for ideals of Fra Dolcino, for the Nazi, Mussolini, Napoleon or many of the gazillion of movements/religions/ideals that appeared in human history. Once crippled, a small pocket resists while the rest flees.
Getting recruits is merely a matter of available resources.
Of course I am not talking about the occasional martyr that decides to blow up with fifty innocent people in the name of the Enuma Elish; I am talking about a full-fledged war.

 

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[jon.a]

There's no time for that, that's the problem.

There's always time to do it over, correctly.

 

[Writer]

There's always time to do it over, correctly.

In general? yes. This specific issue (ISIS), no.
I am the first and foremost supporter of education and cultural growth. But I ain't going to give a lecture on macroeconomics to stop a burglar.

 

[DeletedUser394]

Sad to see the front cover of my city paper displayed an equal sized photo of the shooter and the victim on the front page.

It should have only been about the victim, and the heroes from that day.

The media fuels these losers.

 

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[Mike Kavanagh]

There's no time for that, that's the problem.

So the only thing there is time for is to kill millions of people and possibly spark World War 3 in the process?
Sad that you think that.
Trying to bankrupt them is also a losing strategy. You'd have to drain all of the oil out of the dessert.

My strategy for Winning

1. Pull all friendly troops out
2. Let everything fall into chaos
3. Create people in the country to spread dissent against ISIS
4. Offer to pay to bring children to the US/UK to get a great education. Parents will not be allowed to come. (Stealing old school Mulism strategy here) It's pretty easy to change the minds of children. Especially when the parents aren't around and they are around children their age.
   
5. Spread anti-isis propaganda, have public icons talk out against the terror of isis.
6. Take out key targets, something DF and SF people are good at. Doesn't have to be killings, snatch and grabs work better, no dead bodies.
7. False flag operations as Isis

This is all a precision operation. No innocents die. We don't raise gas prices in the process.
People can't become martyr'd if they aren't in the line of fire. People wont fear the US as much as they fear ISIS.

You have to think from the other side.
If a country was raining bombs down, killing people you know, killing your children, etc... Wouldn't you take up arms?
Don't lie.

I know for damn sure, I'd try kill at least 100 before they'd kill me. I don't even need the promise of women or glory to do it.

 

[Mike Kavanagh]

Sad to see the front cover of my city paper displayed an equal sized photo of the shooter and the victim on the front page.

It should have only been about the victim, and the heroes from that day.

The media fuels these losers.

This is 100% true. They do it for sales sadly.
It isn't right.

 

[Writer]

My strategy for Winning

1. Pull all friendly troops out
2. Let everything fall into chaos
3. Create people in the country to spread dissent against ISIS
4. Offer to pay to bring children to the US/UK to get a great education. Parents will not be allowed to come. (Stealing old school Mulism strategy here) It's pretty easy to change the minds of children. Especially when the parents aren't around and they are around children their age.
   
5. Spread anti-isis propaganda, have public icons talk out against the terror of isis.
6. Take out key targets, something DF and SF people are good at. Doesn't have to be killings, snatch and grabs work better, no dead bodies.
7. False flag operations as Isis

Problem is 2: they are already here, and if they're not stopped it's going to be unstoppable. We have to avoid that it's us to fall into chaos.

 

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[jon.a]

In general? yes. This specific issue (ISIS), no.
I am the first and foremost supporter of education and cultural growth. But I ain't going to give a lecture on macroeconomics to stop a burglar.

Don't misjudge my attitude. I believe most wars that we're currently engaged in should be conducted via snipers, drones and napalm each has it's unique place.

A soldier has two important goals. First, exhaust all options prior to going to war. Second, win the damn thing as fast as possible. It's the civilians that F*ck up these two goals.

 

[Mike Kavanagh]

if they're not stopped it's going to be unstoppable

Basic economics show that it's already passed that point.
Kill one and two or more pop up. Kill 30 with a missile strike and 100 will pop up.
Accidentally kill 1 innocent child, and you have the whole province becomes hostile.
Show them that this is the wrong way and that most of the problems are from ISIS and you can change the minds of the people.

We should also be increasing cyber warfare attacks on the internet recruiting sites and their hosts. Completely destroying any site that promotes joining ISIS or anything like that. This is within our capability.
Just like you can't sell what people can't see, you can't join what you didn't know existed.

Look I'm trying to change your mind, killing millions of people, including the innocent and the guilty, is wrong.
Talking like it's the only option is a limiting belief.
Don't be set on this. There are other options.

If you didn't know, I lost family in 9/11. I also lost friends who I went to school with when they dropped them in the desert. A kid who I went to school with lost his arms and legs.
It pains me to see any soldier get killed serving in a war that we shouldn't be in.

I should be one of the first people saying "Make glass Uncle Sam" but I'm not. I know that isn't how this is going to end.
One nuke could ignite the whole world.

 

[Ninjakid]

Education is not going to school and learning mathematics. It is learning why their ideology and religion (and most religions, yes PLEASE get offended) are utterly stupid, counter productive and illogical. Reshape what is considered valuable, and shun their values of today. 'Give the taste of the better life. Hey this is a TV. Hey this is freedom of marriage. Hey this is freedom of choice... Smells good, don't it?' I'd go into a lot more detail but I have to go to class, so I'll sum up quickly.

I mean, we've done this in 'the west' with religion and LGBT rights ever since Rock Music came around, and that wasn't even a concentrated effort, we are killing religion and stupidity, and although the war is NOT won over here, we ARE winning. How many hardcore religious 20 year olds you know?

@RichKid Let me preface this that I want to be extremely careful about what I say to you. You have a pain in this that I do not, just as the deceased family of that officer does, because it is a tragedy. It WILL take generations upon generations to change things, but it's not like 'WE' (The West) haven't gone and stirred this pot (that is ABSOLUTELY NOT AN EXCUSE FOR THESE ACTIONS, NOT ONE BIT.)

They see Martyrdom. Most of them probably just see revenge. Revenge for:

- All the people killed, sorry, casualities sustained during the peace missions in Iraq and Afghanistan
- Innocent Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and worldwide blacksite detainees (I know Canada didn't build them. But we call them 'Muslims' and they call us 'The West' they don't differentiate, plus CN had involvement in these conflicts)
- Pussy-footed interference in politics (we'll kill everything then we'll install a moron puppet government and let them ruin your country, because it's in our interests.)

Do I believe we can do this with charity workers? Nope. The fighters and enforcers need to be killed, and a US government ex-spook I know actually told me that they are doing a very good job of destroying their own support in those countries. Destroy that which is beyond saving (and that isn't always done with head on war-fare, these groups are not as tight and organized as you'd think. Sowing discord.) and re-educate the rest as much as possible, so that pockets of kids don't grow up with 'the west' as a dartboard.

This is not even remotely in the detail I should have written it in, I have to go.

This is actually very true. These guys that we're fighting now, these are the same guy we've given money, weapons, and training to. We've been in the middle east and took sides long enough to make some enemies, now it's come back to bite us.
We in the west usually see the Iraq War as removing a bad guy who was oppressing his people. To the people in Iraq, they see it as the Western world coming in by force, and removing their Sunni leader(Hussein) and regime, and installing a Shia(the guy who's currently the pres I can't remember his name) in his place. Now Saddam was a sick,evil murderer, and I feel no sympathy for what happened to him, but at least there was order in Iraq then. Now that a Shia face is in power, and another Sunni force (ISIS) is going to take it back.

The problem is that you're going too philosophical. Ideas will never be stopped. There is no way to get rid of an idea, which is man's greatest freedom and man's biggest curse. And yes, ideas often outlive the person.
Here the problem is different, and it's very short termed. ISIS is becoming more powerful by the day. They have MIGs now, they have tons of weaponry. They have money and power. They are also getting recruits in the western world. ISIS has to be stopped as soon as possible, and with whatever force is necessary. I am not talking about convincing a million guys that their religion is wrong (yes, good luck with that). I am talking about preventing a very dangerous escalation that is happening in front of our eyes. They need to be severely weakened, their weapons have to be decimated, and so their cash flow. The more problems they have, the more they will be unable to get new recruits, new weapons, and you can be sure that if things gets bad enough, internal feuds will start.
This is why arming groups and bombing them like they are doing now is not enough. Yes, you get rid of pockets, but it does not cripple them, not even psychologically. ISIS is not Al Qaeda; it's a whole different level here.

We should be arming NO ONE ELSE. This is partially why we have this whole mess now. Essentially we're still fighting the same enemy: Islamic extremists. Al-Qaeda just wanted to blow a bunch of things up and make noise. ISIS wants to establish a caliphate, and they're closer to doing that than anyone else.
And now as for us in Canada, many people think that "we can just leave them alone and they'll leave us alone." Of course they never care because we aren't fighting them on our doorstep. They killed two of our soldiers on OUR OWN SOIL. We're damn well fighting them on our doorstep now

 

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[Writer]

I lost family in 9/11

First of all, I am truly sorry for your loss. Although anonymous to me, they will be in my heart and in my prayers...
I might disagree with your solutions, but your calmness is truly admirable and an example for me.

Look I'm trying to change your mind, killing millions of people, including the innocent and the guilty, is wrong.

I am not advocating killing millions of innocent people. I am advocating a full-force reaction where pockets of resistance are. Now they are not many, pretty soon they will be a huge federation of nations and that has to be stopped before its seeds becomes a full grown oak. I agree that education would be the best thing, but now it's a matter of basic survival.
What a mess...

 

[masaldana2]

Religion....sigh

 

[jon.a]

Religion....sigh

WAR

 

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[pickeringmt]

Anybody can be radicalized though cultural manipulation, and I think that this thread demonstrates that to some degree.

You have free-thinking people from the first world saying that we should nuke an entire country because of this minority of psychopaths?

I imagine that this is pretty much the same mindset as these terrorist hypocrites. That is what fuels all of this. Collective damnation.

The only solution that I see is for the other +/- 2 billion Muslims to take some action and show the world that this is bullshit.

Some do anyways, but we don't see that on the news. Don't expect to, either.

Freaks all over the world do things like this everyday. These freaks just attach their horrific actions to a religion to justify their own agenda - and people accept that because it is easier to think that these people have something making them do this. The truth is, every one of these people makes their own decisions, and it has nothing to do with religion - just personal weakness and failure as a human being.

 

[Ninjakid]

If you didn't know, I lost family in 9/11. I also lost friends who I went to school with when they dropped them in the desert..

I'm very sorry to hear that.

 

[Ninjakid]

When the Islamic State rolled into Iraq, Iraqi soldiers threw down their guns, and ran away.

Threw down their guns and ran away!

"These lunatics are coming here to slaughter our men, rape and torture our women and children; we'd better save ourselves while we can."
And thus, this is apparently the situation.

 

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[Ninjakid]

@RichKid did they ever find anything about the other two attackers?

 

[Writer]

You have free-thinking people from the first world saying that we should nuke an entire country because of this minority of psychopaths?

I don't like it, and I am not really advocating nukes (it's an exaggeration to say "beat the crap out of them").
However, nuking Berlin in 1939 might've saved a lot of trouble. Chamberlain's peace caused more deaths than a "small" nuke.

 

[Shdreams]

I'm also from Ottawa.

Nice to have another valley guy in here.

I was busy at work but they Didn't mention to much about the other two guys today. Could be on purpose. Or maybe it was mixed messages from witnesses. The lock down is slowly shrinking back towards the hill. I heard on the radio the gov will be pushing bills through to arrest anyone remotely resembling the same criminal profile as the shooter. he had some priors and connections that pointed to extremist.

 

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[DeletedUser394]

@RichKid did they ever find anything about the other two attackers?

Turns out it was misinformation on behalf of the media.

He was just one deranged guy acting alone (thankfully).

Mental health is a real issue.

 

[Shdreams]

This is the best footage yet! The Incident in action! A must see if your interested.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=...binId=1.810401&playlistPageNum=1&binPageNum=1

 

[playa77]

Anybody can be radicalized though cultural manipulation, and I think that this thread demonstrates that to some degree.

You have free-thinking people from the first world saying that we should nuke an entire country because of this minority of psychopaths?

I imagine that this is pretty much the same mindset as these terrorist hypocrites. That is what fuels all of this. Collective damnation.

The only solution that I see is for the other +/- 2 billion Muslims to take some action and show the world that this is bullshit.

Some do anyways, but we don't see that on the news. Don't expect to, either.

Freaks all over the world do things like this everyday. These freaks just attach their horrific actions to a religion to justify their own agenda - and people accept that because it is easier to think that these people have something making them do this. The truth is, every one of these people makes their own decisions, and it has nothing to do with religion - just personal weakness and failure as a human being.

I hope this incident will not lead to diffusion and curtailment of freedom of the average Canadian for the sake of (an illusion of) more security.

 

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[SBS.95]

conversion to fully auto info is easily accessible all over the internet. Bad guys don't obey gun laws

I can't tell if this comment is pro/anti gun. Hard to detect through the internet.

Either way, I feel inclined to point out to people who may read this, that most "bad guys" have no interest in converting their weapons to full auto. There's a common misconception among people that haven't tried to shoot that automatics are these killing machines like Call Of Duty. They really aren't. Everyone is more accurate with a semi-auto. I've got family members in the Special Forces who will tell you the same thing. Automatics make the firearm very hard to wrangle.

Regardless, if anything this incident should serve as an example that strict gun laws will not prevent gun violence.

 

[Guest3722A]

"bad guys" have no interest in converting their weapons to full auto

I hate to say this, but where I'm from, it happens all the time by very bad people. I've seen it. I've also seen these weapons get traded off at local gun shows and the dealers by habit open them to look inside to see if there has been a conversion. Its an ugly world out there in some spots.

 

[DeletedUser394]

Regardless, if anything this incident should serve as an example that strict gun laws will not prevent gun violence.

Of course not, but as with ebola, and everything else, we have to keep things in perspective. To play devil's advocate, on a per capita basis, you are 5 times more likely to be murdered by a person wielding a firearm in the united states, which obviously has much more freedom with regards to firearms.

Last year, in Ottawa, where this took place, there were a grand total of 9 homicides. Only 2 of which were gun related. In a city of nearly 900,000 people.

Canada is one of the safest places on earth. Because one lunatic goes off on a rampage every couple of years with a gun should not bring about any change whatsoever. I live in a city of over a million, and I can walk alone at 3am in the shady areas of the city without encountering any issues whatsoever.. in fact, there aren't even any bad areas around here. We don't have ghettos.

Canada is not the USA, and the two can't be compared with issues such as this.

I'm proud of what my country represents, and I damn well hope it stays that way.

Anyway, there are no politics on this forum.

 

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[Ninjakid]

I hope this incident will not lead to diffusion and curtailment of freedom of the average Canadian for the sake of (an illusion of) more security.

Too late.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Anti-Terrorism_Act

It's basically the exact same thing as the Patriot Act in USA.

 

[Ninjakid]

We don't have ghettos.

Yes we do. Most native reserves.