Seeking to combat B.S. and PCness. Anyone feeling me?

[ethicalmarketin]

I just finished The Millionaire Fastlane , and was surprised how much I liked it. I see a huge problem on the horizon for the internet marketing industry. Everyone's acting like a bunch of dumb sheep and using the same dishonest methods! :smx4: How many sales pages look the same, sound the same, and use all of the same tactics? Try like 95% of them. It's up to honest gritty people to reign in the crap and keep the whole industry from going under because of the general lack of integrity. I just started a site called [Edited by Mod] to do my part.

Does anyone else often feel like they're swimming in a sea of @holes in this industry? Thanks MJ for "keeping it real" and not giving a #$@# about trying to please everyone.

(Edited by Mod. - toned it down, explanation below)

 

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[The Intrepid]

Honestly? Sounds like you have some growing up to do.

 

[Sparlin]

Hi ethicalmaretin. You're right in that truth is negated by PC and expectations placed on us by others. Too often people allow themselves to be nullified because they are concerned about offending people. The use of the Socratic method is sorely lacking and it shows in our society.

Now that I've said that PC is a problem, I need to clarify that truth should be spoken and everyone has the right to express their opinions, SO LONG as those opinions are in a public venue. Once you enter private domain, expectations of behavior can be and should be determined by the owner.

I'm all for your message but please keep it toned down some. This is a private forum and there are ladies and some kids present here. Just think of it as you can say what you want out in the street but things change when you walk into someone's house. That said, things loosen up a bit when you get into the private speedways. It's just about respect and maintaining a comfortable environment for all members.

As for your website link, there is a policy that doesn't allow new members to post until they have 50 posts. This cuts down on the spamming. Once you get the 50 posts you can put it back up. I know it looks like I'm reeling you in, but I'm just explaining house rules.

Good luck and welcome to the Fastlane! :fastlane:

 

[MJ DeMarco]

reign in the crap and keep the whole industry from going under because of the general lack of integrity.

Problem is, as long as the sheep keep buying, the same stuff will keep reappearing.

Spam hasn't dissipated because it still works. Think about it ... if everyone ignored spam would it still be a problem?

Welcome to the forums!

 

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[ethicalmarketin]

Baptism by fire.

Honestly? Sounds like you have some growing up to do.

Intrepid, there's a difference between offending (which I sometimes do) and personal insults. Offending people and pushing them out of their comfort zones (with good intentions aka Martin Luther King, Ghandi, Socrates, George Carlin, and even Jesus although I'm not religious) is one of the best things you can do according to my own moral beliefs. Personal insults are the mark of immature and foul-hearted people, so congrats there buddy.

Hi ethicalmaretin. You're right in that truth is negated by PC and expectations placed on us by others. Too often people allow themselves to be nullified because they are concerned about offending people. The use of the Socratic method is sorely lacking and it shows in our society.

Now that I've said that PC is a problem, I need to clarify that truth should be spoken and everyone has the right to express their opinions, SO LONG as those opinions are in a public venue. Once you enter private domain, expectations of behavior can be and should be determined by the owner.

I'm all for your message but please keep it toned down some. This is a private forum and there are ladies and some kids present here. Just think of it as you can say what you want out in the street but things change when you walk into someone's house. That said, things loosen up a bit when you get into the private speedways. It's just about respect and maintaining a comfortable environment for all members.

As for your website link, there is a policy that doesn't allow new members to post until they have 50 posts. This cuts down on the spamming. Once you get the 50 posts you can put it back up. I know it looks like I'm reeling you in, but I'm just explaining house rules.

Good luck and welcome to the Fastlane! :fastlane:

Sparlin,
I don't agree with you but thanks for your constructive criticism. I have no problem with differences of opinion as long as they're explained. The reason I felt like I could write in a blunt manner was because of the tone of MJ's book. He cursed and talked about the stupidity of some people throughout his book, which I loved. It would take a long time to explain why, but I have no problem if women or kids hear "naughty words." Words literally mean nothing, and intent is the only thing that really matters. When I have kids, I will teach them these concepts in full. Most of the people who I personally respect feel the same way; Hunter S. Thompson, George Carlin, Bill Maher, Kurt Vonnegutt, Howard Stern, ect. The old "corrupting the children" argument goes back to Socrates and I am 100% for "corrupting" them in this spirit.

I was under the impression that we just couldn't have signature links until 50 posts, but I am more than happy to follow this rule, and totally see the value in it.

Check out this George Carlin rant YouTube - George Carlin - Euphemistic Language
(is posting this link not kosher? I figured it was ok since it was part of the argument and has nothing to do with any of my websites)

Problem is, as long as the sheep keep buying, the same stuff will keep reappearing.

Spam hasn't dissipated because it still works. Think about it ... if everyone ignored spam would it still be a problem?

Welcome to the forums!

MJ,
Thanks so much for your response. I really loved your book, and it led me to believe I could feel free to say whatever I wanted on here as far as “naughty words.†Also, in the welcome email I received from this forum, there was the line “That means, if you are here to sell your SHIT you will be promptly banned.â€

This naturally led me to believe that I didn't have to censor my “shit†too capitulate to censor-happy types. If I am wrong on this account, please let me know.

Most people will probably always be sheep-like in nature into the foreseeable future. I believe that it's the responsibility of all truth loving people to work to combat this in whatever way they see fit. My belief is that combat, whether it be with the pen or the sword, is messy by nature, and the only way to break through walls is with a giant hammer. Of course, tact has its place as well. Finding the balance between saying what you really think and not coming off like a nut-job is a tough line to walk, but worth the effort.

I'm still new to this forum and am trying to get a sense of what it's about. I certainly hope that it's more about the methods of users MJ DeMarco, and Sparlin than user The Intrepid.

 

[Icy]

Thanks so much for your response. I really loved your book, and it led me to believe I could feel free to say whatever I wanted on here as far as “naughty words.” Also, in the welcome email I received from this forum, there was the line “That means, if you are here to sell your SHIT you will be promptly banned.”

This naturally led me to believe that I didn't have to censor my “shit” too capitulate to censor-happy types. If I am wrong on this account, please let me know.

I didn't see your original post so I may be completely wrong, but here's my interpretation.

I have a feeling it was just an 'excessive' use cursing rather than just using it. You're treated as an adult here, but there is also a point where you have to watch how much it's use because it can reflect on the forum as a whole.

No one here is so sheltered to believe kids don't hear swear words often (especially with the internet), but it's usually just as easy to get a point across without swearing, and makes a large amount of people comfortable with the message. That said there are definitely times where injecting cursing can make the message stronger, and in those circumstances as far as I can tell there isn't a problem.

Anyway, welcome to the forum!

 

[Russ H]

ethicalmarketin-

I totally understand your points.

A few observations:

1. When I was younger (I'm an old fart now), I often got a rise out of getting people upset, or bothered, or "moved" by tweeking them w/words or actions. Made me feel important-- like I was doing something worth while. I'm not saying this is your motive-- only you can do that gut-check. Just saying that I once did similar things, telling myself it was important to take people out of their comfort zones. But I had a selfish motive that I didn't see, for more than 10 years (truth).

2. I understand how you'd feel like it was OK to let it all hang out on here, after reading MJ's book-- but you're in 2 different places. MJ wrote his book as if he was sitting down having a beer with you-- so he's very open, honest, and outspoken. And he talks the way he talks when he's with a friend.

But watch how MJ writes when he's on these forums-- look at his posts. They are different from his writing in the book, b/c these forums are a different place. Not like church, perhaps, but like the difference between going out for a beer, versus being at a party with different people from all backgrounds/walks of life, and showing respect by toning things down.

3. You can still get your message across without offending, or ruffling feathers. For years, I felt that showed weakness, or fear. I was wrong. It was my own weakness and fear that I was trying to hide by being outspoken and controversial. Again-- not saying this is you-- but sharing what I learned, for what it's worth.

Welcome to the Fastlane. :banana:

-Russ H.

 

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[accelerator]

The dishonest methods work, the sales pages work, and the tactics work. Why change something that's working so well? It's up to consumers to better educate themselves and stop buying crap, when they do marketer's just might stop promoting shady re-bills. Anyway you're getting your wish: Acai Berry Sting: FTC Sues Fake ‘News’ Sites Hawking Diet Products | paidContent

 

[Sparlin]

Hey guys, thanks for the comments. I probably did come down a little heavy handed. I guess I should have just said, " Say what you want, but be respectful of the other members." If you think of cussing like drinking alcohol, a few might be fine and may even help in social situations, but no wants to be around the guy who's just downed 15 shots and is shouting over everyone else.

Ethicalmarketin wasn't too excessive, just more brash than most members. I just wasn't sure of his pacing since he just arrived on scene. I have better understanding of his philosophy from his responses and I'm inclined to point to Russ's post.

Going back to the drinking analogy, if one guy downs all those shots, then other members will follow. While there is nothing intrinsically wrong with it, the result is a change in atmosphere that distracts from the original purpose of the forum. We're just trying to maintain the atmosphere.

All that said, the original post was right. There is too much PC BS (in some elements of society).

 

[Russ H]

All that said, the original post was right. There is too much PC BS.

I guess my point was-- if you're interested in making it in the business world, learning the language of PC/BS can get you a long way.

A lot of business success is all about figuring out how to be respectful, have integrity, and have others trust you. Fall short on any of those elements, and you often get the short end of the deal (b/c others don't trust you, or respect you).

There's a big difference between being a suck-up and playing by the rules. I never saw that when I was younger-- all of the establishment crap seemed like BS to me.

So I rebelled. I fought. I was a mean mutha (back in the day).

It's easy to feel empowered by fighting the powers that be (listen to Billy Joel's classic "Angry Young Man"-- amazing insight from a guy who was 25 when he wrote it).

[video=youtube;Lplze3ONJWo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lplze3ONJWo[/video]

"There's a place in the world for the angry young man
With his working class ties and his radical plans
He refuses to bend, he refuses to crawl,
He's always at home with his back to the wall.
And he's proud of his scars and the battles he's lost,
He struggles and bleeds as he hangs on the cross-
And he likes to be known as the angry young man.

Give a moment or two to the angry young man,
With his foot in his mouth and his heart in his hand.
He's been stabbed in the back, he's been misunderstood,
It's a comfort to know his intentions are good.
He sits in a room with a lock on the door,
With his maps and his medals laid out on the floor
And he likes to be known as the angry young man.

I believe I've passed the age of consciousness & righteous rage
I found that just surviving was a noble fight.
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view,
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right, ohhhhh

And there's always a place for the angry young man,
With his fist in the air and his head in the sand.
And he's never been able to learn from mistakes,
He can't understand why his heart always breaks.
His honor is pure and his courage as well,
He's fair and he's true and he's boring as hell!
And he'll go to the grave as an angry old man.

Whoa, and there's always a place for the angry young man
With his working class ties and his radical plans
He refuses to bend, he refuses to crawl,
He's always at home with his back to the wall.
And he's proud of his scars and the battles he's lost,
He struggles and bleeds ‘til he hangs on the cross
And he likes to be known as the angry young man."

********

Again, ethicalmarketin, I want to stress I'm not talking about you-- only that your points have brought back some memories, and lessons I've learned.


-Russ H.

 

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[Sparlin]

I agree with you completely Russ, especially in terms of business. My point is that society in general often skirts truths or renames various entities. They do this in order to avoid offending groups with conflicting viewpoints.

Diplomacy, tact, and mutual respect are all admirable traits. The problem begins when the desire to appease everyone causes us to over look obvious truths.

You can call a poisonous viper a "misunderstood, rarely aggressive reptile". It still won't stop him from biting you.

 

[ethicalmarketin]

Oh wow, I love this forum! Thanks everyone for such well thought out responses. Russ H, I remember seeing Billy Joel play this song live a decade or so ago, and I'd forgotten what great lyrics it has. I identify with this song very strongly. Many great men "go to the grave as an angry old man" but some ineffectual men also end up like this. I think what matters is what constructive things you do with that anger whether you're young or old.

I have a degree in Philosophy (and also political science, but I'm not going to touch that with my ten foot pole) so I've been reading about, writing about, and debating these issues for a long time. I know where I stand, but there is certainly something to be said for playing by the rules in the spirit of not having the debate become more about ego than the search for truth.

The dishonest methods work, the sales pages work, and the tactics work. Why change something that's working so well? It's up to consumers to better educate themselves and stop buying crap, when they do marketer's just might stop promoting shady re-bills. Anyway you're getting your wish: Acai Berry Sting: FTC Sues Fake ‘News’ Sites Hawking Diet Products | paidContent

I mostly agree with this, but I can think of some good reasons to change it. I foresee a big shift in the internet marketing industry on the not so distant horizon. Especially in the information age, change can happen so quickly that it makes peoples' heads spin. The average consumer is so burnt out with these dishonest tactics, and I believe that soon they will no longer work like they used to. I don't necessarily see anything ethically wrong with some of them, it's just distasteful to me and increasingly many others. The article you posted is one example of things changing, as is Google's recent actions. From Google:

"This update is designed to reduce rankings for low-quality sites—sites which are low-value add for users, copy content from other websites or sites that are just not very useful. At the same time, it will provide better rankings for high-quality sites—sites with original content and information such as research, in-depth reports, thoughtful analysis and so on." Official Google Blog: Finding more high-quality sites in search

Sometimes crazy shit-storm rants and insane sounding sound bites can be successful in business. Howard Stern has made a fortune doing this as have many others. Frank Kern is someone in the internet marketing industry who has been very successful not giving a flying F*ck. (in one video I saw he talks about coming up with a great business idea while tripping balls on shrooms) This is the direction I'm looking to go in, but it's a work in progress. Actually, lately I've been struggling with this question for my new website. Should I just go balls out, or restrain myself.

 

[ethicalmarketin]

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." George Bernard Shaw

 

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[The Intrepid]

"A physician is not angry at the intemperance of a mad patient, nor does he take it ill to be railed at by a man in fever. Just so should a wise man treat all mankind, as a physician does his patient, and look upon them only as sick and extravagant."
- Seneca

 

[Russ H]

"When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But, when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years."

(something I heard while in college that I found funny, and true)

-Russ H.

 

[ethicalmarketin]

"A physician is not angry at the intemperance of a mad patient, nor does he take it ill to be railed at by a man in fever. Just so should a wise man treat all mankind, as a physician does his patient, and look upon them only as sick and extravagant."
- Seneca

A good diagnosis, but it begs the question: What can a wise man do to try to cure the sickness of mankind?

 

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