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Resource Based Economy

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Almantas

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What do you think about Resource Based Economy (RBE) coined by Jacque Fresco? Do you think we will ever achieve it? How achievable is it? Is there a better alternative?

 

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Almantas

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I came across Fresco a few years ago now and love his work.

I don’t think the fastlane will like it however.

Why do you think fastlane will not like it? Is it because most entrepreneurs forget that at the root of entrepreneurship lies problem solving? Or is it because most so called entrepreneurs are nothing more but a bunch of money-thirsty vampires? I think most of us on this forum love money, because it offers a financial independence, but what if there was no need of financial independence, because we all are free to do whatever we want?

I know, I know, it sounds utopian. TBH I've just tipped my toes and have minimal knowledge of it, but the whole concept of using technology for an advancement of humanity, instead of pumping money into the system of productocracy appeals to me.

I know, such topics are bound to get some angry looks.

Thanks for replying.
 

MidwestLandlord

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It completely ignores human nature.

The "tool bag" list in his graphic is a joke. Made me wanna throw up, honestly.

People like me are the reason it (communism, essentially) would never work. I *will* compete, regardless of the circumstances.

Maybe quit reading this crap and get to work? Daydreaming about a Utopian future where human beings don't compete with each other doesn't change the reality of the world as it is today.

And I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement that most entrepreneurs are "money-thirsty vampires"

It's statements like that that make people hate those who produce the comforts of a good life and improve the world every single day.
 

Almantas

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It completely ignores human nature.

The "tool bag" list in his graphic is a joke. Made me wanna throw up, honestly.

People like me are the reason it (communism, essentially) would never work. I *will* compete, regardless of the circumstances.

Maybe quit reading this crap and get to work? Daydreaming about a Utopian future where human beings don't compete with each other doesn't change the reality of the world as it is today.

And I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement that most entrepreneurs are "money-thirsty vampires"

It's statements like that that make people hate those who produce the comforts of a good life and improve the world every single day.

Thanks for replying.

I didn't mean that most entrepreneurs are money-thirsty vampires. I just expressed myself in a wrong way I guess.

It just scares me how consumeristic our society has become. Population is growing, people are consuming more than they need and we throw massive amounts of food/resources away every year. It just seems not resourceful and it's obvious that our home, planet earth, has limited resources and something terribly bad is bound to happen if this trend continues.

Don't get me wrong. I respect your opinion. Everybody has their own perception of reality and I respect yours.
 

MidwestLandlord

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It just scares me how consumeristic our society has become. Population is growing, people are consuming more than they need and we throw massive amounts of food/resources away every year. It just seems not resourceful and it's obvious that our home, planet earth, has limited resources and something terribly bad is bound to happen if this trend continues.

Confirmation bias. (the internet is essentially chicken little with this stuff)

Natural resource usage is down across the western world. Water use (a common metric used for overall consumption, as it takes water to make virtually everything) is down sharply in most of Europe. Germany is down 25% for example. The USA is down 5%

Worldwide population growth is half of what is was in 1970, and projected to be even or slightly negative by the year 2100. In fact, birth rates are below replacement levels in the US & Canada, all of Europe, Russia, Japan, Brazil, and China.

You can google all this and find I am right.

The sky is not falling.

Be the change you want to see in the world and all that, ya know? Maybe find a way resources can be saved and sell the solution...

Anyway, I'm out of this discussion. I've learned in the past that facts don't often change these kinds of opinions.
 

Almantas

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Confirmation bias. (the internet is essentially chicken little with this stuff)

Natural resource usage is down across the western world. Water use (a common metric used for overall consumption, as it takes water to make virtually everything) is down sharply in most of Europe. Germany is down 25% for example. The USA is down 5%

Worldwide population growth is half of what is was in 1970, and projected to be even or slightly negative by the year 2100. In fact, birth rates are below replacement levels in the US & Canada, all of Europe, Russia, Japan, Brazil, and China.

You can google all this and find I am right.

The sky is not falling.

Be the change you want to see in the world and all that, ya know? Maybe find a way resources can be saved and sell the solution...

Anyway, I'm out of this discussion. I've learned in the past that facts don't often change these kinds of opinions.

Thanks for enlightening me on this topic. It's obvious that you know what you're talking about.
 

Interesting Life

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There's a few ok messages in it, but I agree with the whole human nature thing. Much of the progress that we have made has been due to self interest. There are major flaws in the current system of things, but any large scale socialistic or communistic attempts has led to worse corruption and misuse of resources. The dregs of society shouldn't be rewarded for excessively bad behavior and those that produce should have full incentive for doing so. Cleaning corruption out of our current system could help things out a lot, if at all possible though.
 

luniac

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The only enemy of capitalism is moral corruption, and its a tough problem to solve because these people have a lot of power and influence.
I'm not even talkin bout things like coca cola and cigarettes, although at one time or another even they crossed ethical boundaries with their marketing.
I'm talking bout big shit like the history of leaded gasoline industry, read up about that shit.
I'm talking bout shit consumers don't even know about so can't even make an informed decision.
I'm talkin bout corporations lobbying against GMO food labeling.

Money is supposed to be proof you helped your fellow men, but a lot of money is made from knowingly hurtful activities. Perhaps money has become to decentralized?

Ray Krok, cofounder of Macdonalds Inc, in his book said he loves capitalism to the core, but not "morally corrupt" businessmen.
 

Almantas

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There's a few ok messages in it, but I agree with the whole human nature thing. Much of the progress that we have made has been due to self interest. There are major flaws in the current system of things, but any large scale socialistic or communistic attempts has led to worse corruption and misuse of resources. The dregs of society shouldn't be rewarded for excessively bad behavior and those that produce should have full incentive for doing so. Cleaning corruption out of our current system could help things out a lot, if at all possible though.

Great points. IMHO corruption is unavoidable. People will always be looking to maximize their resources - I guess it even existed back in the stone age. I think, instead of concentrating on a physical word, we should begin with internal changes. Just my 2c.
 

Almantas

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The only enemy of capitalism is moral corruption, and its a tough problem to solve because these people have a lot of power and influence.
I'm not even talkin bout things like coca cola and cigarettes, although at one time or another even they crossed ethical boundaries with their marketing.
I'm talking bout big shit like the history of leaded gasoline industry, read up about that shit.
I'm talking bout shit consumers don't even know about so can't even make an informed decision.
I'm talkin bout corporations lobbying against GMO food labeling.

Money is supposed to be proof you helped your fellow men, but a lot of money is made from knowingly hurtful activities. Perhaps money has become to decentralized?

Ray Krok, cofounder of Macdonalds Inc, in his book said he loves capitalism to the core, but not "morally corrupt" businessmen.

I agree for most part of what you've just said.

I don't have anything wrong with guys banking Benjamins by providing insane value to a society - Elon Musk, Bill Gates, etc. What I hate seeing is corrupt bankers and addictive substances selling companies making much more than guys who are literally changing our lives for the better, in some cases even saving altogether. For instance, take a surgeon who is doing a God's work by saving someone's life and a banker who doesn't give a damn about people and is obsessed about making another ten million dollars regardless of how many people will suffer as a result of this.

IMO society is slowly awakening.
 

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Interesting Life

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Great points. IMHO corruption is unavoidable. People will always be looking to maximize their resources - I guess it even existed back in the stone age. I think, instead of concentrating on a physical word, we should begin with internal changes. Just my 2c.

The values that are instilled into people especially when they are young could help things a lot. Instead of valuing lil wayne and Justin Bieber, if people thought that knowledge, self development and bettering the world were cool then people we'd be on the right track. Forcing people that produce to carry the weight of everyone else in unproductive.
 

Interesting Life

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The banker only makes a ton of money because other people are willing to do business with them. If people chose to work with only more altruistic banks then the selfish manipulative banker would not prosper
 

Almantas

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The values that are instilled into people especially when they are young could help things a lot. Instead of valuing lil wayne and Justin Bieber, if people thought that knowledge, self development and bettering the world were cool then people we'd be on the right track. Forcing people that produce to carry the weight of everyone else in unproductive.

Agree on that!

Just imagine if we were thought HOW to study and not merely regurgitate the information. If high school students were inspired by the possibilities of changing the world, rather than fear mongered that if they fail exams they'll end up on the street... it's all possible and I believe it's only a matter of time when it'll happen.
 

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But even worry about a 40 year old meme? How about starting with yourself? Go give some food to the food bank, read to a child, buy a well for a village in Africa through a charity that builds them. See, food, water, and education can be given by you.
 

Almantas

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The banker only makes a ton of money because other people are willing to do business with them. If people chose to work with only more altruistic banks then the selfish manipulative banker would not prosper

It was just an example. I don't have any industry experience, but based on financial horror stories it's obvious that many bankers are using persuasion, manipulation and other mind tricks most people are unaware of to sell toxic investments to unaware people. I am 100% sure there's a fine bunch of bankers who are in business to deceive people and make money as a result.
 

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I think the current education system is being questioned more and more. This is a good thing. Distraction and feelings of entitlement are also on the rise though. It's hard for all 7+ billion people in the world to change the world. Just being productive and doing at least your share in a decent system should be enough for most people.
 

Almantas

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I think the current education system is being questioned more and more. This is a good thing. Distraction and feelings of entitlement are also on the rise though. It's hard for all 7+ billion people in the world to change the world. Just being productive and doing at least your share in a decent system should be enough for most people.

Yep. And the more interconnected we become the bigger the chance we can unite and achieve great things together. Just imagine walking down the street 15 years ago and looking for people interested in X subject... now you can reach people globally with just a few keystrokes.
 

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I think the food system is a mess. The cruel way that animals are caged up and pretty much tortured for their entire lives so that people can eat meat is an example of capitalism gone crazy. The individual consumer either doesn't know the full extent of the evil involved or chooses not to think of it.
 

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Yep. And the more interconnected we become the bigger the chance we can unite and achieve great things together. Just imagine walking down the street 15 years ago and looking for people interested in X subject... now you can reach people globally with just a few keystrokes.

More people need to come to this forum :D to find alternative ways of navigating the international economy.
 

Almantas

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I think the food system is a mess. The cruel way that animals are caged up and pretty much tortured for their entire lives so that people can eat meat is an example of capitalism gone crazy. The individual consumer either doesn't know the full extent of the evil involved or chooses not to think of it.

IMO most people are simply ignorant by choice. They don't want to see how their food is produced or clothes manufactured by a 5 year old girl in China, working 80h a week for a greedy corporation. But that's part of capitalism. Ironically, our development depends a lot on third world countries.
 

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Almantas

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More people need to come to this forum :D to find alternative ways of navigating the international economy.

Yep, but we have to use wording very carefully. A lot of people are dependent upon this system, therefore they feel threatened every time the system that brings them cash is being questioned. Sadly, most people don't think enough about the future generations.
 

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IMO most people are simply ignorant by choice. They don't want to see how their food is produced or clothes manufactured by a 5 year old girl in China, working 80h a week for a greedy corporation. But that's part of capitalism. Ironically, our development depends a lot on third world countries.

Ironically also is the fact that even though the sweatshops are awful, their introduction often provides a better source of employment than they had beforehand. It's like the lesser of evils. Still sad though
 

luniac

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I agree for most part of what you've just said.

I don't have anything wrong with guys banking Benjamins by providing insane value to a society - Elon Musk, Bill Gates, etc. What I hate seeing is corrupt bankers and addictive substances selling companies making much more than guys who are literally changing our lives for the better, in some cases even saving altogether. For instance, take a surgeon who is doing a God's work by saving someone's life and a banker who doesn't give a damn about people and is obsessed about making another ten million dollars regardless of how many people will suffer as a result of this.

IMO society is slowly awakening.

I can't hate on addictive substance sellers, the ingredients are clearly shown on the label(I think coke doesn't put coke in their coke no more? lol)
The customer votes with their wallet and the system works.
 

Almantas

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Ironically also is the fact that even though the sweatshops are awful, their introduction often provides a better source of employment than they had beforehand. It's like the lesser of evils. Still sad though

IMO it looks worse than it really is from our perspective. Guys who have never known anything better adapt and I think are glad for what they have, because they know that there're people who have even less...

It's like aliens feeling bad for people working most of the life and not seeing their children grow up. But most people get used to it and are glad that they have jobs so they can provide for their families.
 

luniac

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the funny thing bout sweatshops is the same as in African child labor stuff, our western hearts melt for their life conditions and try to vote with our wallet by not buying products created by their labor, which in turn makes them lose the only source of income they had and they get pretty damn mad about it.

Its a lose lose situation.
 

Almantas

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I can't hate on addictive substance sellers, the ingredients are clearly shown on the label(I think coke doesn't put coke in their coke no more? lol)
The customer votes with their wallet and the system works.

You're right. Let's use somewhat different example...

Sam has been suffering from a depression for two years, because of his business failure. Sam decides to visit Doctor about it, instead of directing Sam to someone like @AndrewNC Doctor punches his drawer and takes out a prescription for Xanax. Sam is in a hopeless state and believes in Doctor's good intentions. After two months, he comes back with more mental issues... Doctor prescribes more happy pills... and the cycle continues...

Now, this is tricky as I never exposed it, but I am pretty sure a lot of Doctors are sitting in pharma pockets and usually their primary motivation is to sell as much as they can so they can make commissions at the end of the year...

Similar practices exist everywhere.

I know, Sam is an adult and responsible for his actions. But when you're depressed, you don't care about anything but lessening the mental pain you're feeling on a daily basis and going to Doctor with a hope that he can help you, because that's what Doctors do right?
 

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It would be a joke if the stakes weren't so high.

It's literally communism repackaged for the 21st century. He's just replaced human overseers/politicians with machines. History is quite clear about what happens in communist countries - mass murders and human rights violations en masse. Look up the university of Hawaii study on democide if you want to put some numbers to it. If you believe that swapping out human rulers for a machine wouldn't give you the exact same result, I have some oceanfront property in Iowa to sell to you. Great deal, too.

If the horrors of communistic nations ( each and every one of them ) isn't enough for you, here are some other arguments against the RBE:

It assumes that the market forces that would lead to a post abundance society would continue to act under an RBE. i.e. entrepreneurs are the ones who create shit, and do so due to market forces. If you remove those market forces, entrepreneurs aren't going to create and the engine of growth breaks down quite quickly.

It assumes that human demands for goods can be algorithmically determined by a machine advanced enough to allocate resources to meet those demands. This is an extremely dubious assumption at best, as is most likely impossible to satisfy.

It assumes that the ills that plague society are all due to the scarcity of resources, and that once that vanishes everything will be honky dorey. The individuals' lust for power goes beyond resources, since it is driven by a desire to control other humans. Creating a system with ultimate control of all resources introduces a single point of failure in the system. Compromise that algorithm / computer and you have absolute power over everyone. No thanks.

IMO there will come a time when we move beyond scarcity - it will be in the decades following the advent of commercial fusion. The abundance of resources and energy will not negate the need for the personal ownership of property and it will not negate price as a mechanism for resource rationing, regardless of how powerful computers become or how benevolent the elites want us to believe they are.
 

luniac

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You're right. Let's use somewhat different example...

Sam has been suffering from a depression for two years, because of his business failure. Sam decides to visit Doctor about it, instead of directing Sam to someone like @AndrewNC Doctor punches his drawer and takes out a prescription for Xanax. Sam is in a hopeless state and believes in Doctor's good intentions. After two months, he comes back with more mental issues... Doctor prescribes more happy pills... and the cycle continues...

Now, this is tricky as I never exposed it, but I am pretty sure a lot of Doctors are sitting in pharma pockets and usually their primary motivation is to sell as much as they can so they can make commissions at the end of the year...

Similar practices exist everywhere.

I know, Sam is an adult and responsible for his actions. But when you're depressed, you don't care about anything but lessening the mental pain you're feeling on a daily basis and going to Doctor with a hope that he can help you, because that's what Doctors do right?

This is all the doing of Big Pharma and morally corrupt(or just plain ignorant) doctors.
 

luniac

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It would be a joke if the stakes weren't so high.

It's literally communism repackaged for the 21st century. He's just replaced human overseers/politicians with machines. History is quite clear about what happens in communist countries - mass murders and human rights violations en masse. Look up the university of Hawaii study on democide if you want to put some numbers to it. If you believe that swapping out human rulers for a machine wouldn't give you the exact same result, I have some oceanfront property in Iowa to sell to you. Great deal, too.

If the horrors of communistic nations ( each and every one of them ) isn't enough for you, here are some other arguments against the RBE:

It assumes that the market forces that would lead to a post abundance society would continue to act under an RBE. i.e. entrepreneurs are the ones who create shit, and do so due to market forces. If you remove those market forces, entrepreneurs aren't going to create and the engine of growth breaks down quite quickly.

It assumes that human demands for goods can be algorithmically determined by a machine advanced enough to allocate resources to meet those demands. This is an extremely dubious assumption at best, as is most likely impossible to satisfy.

It assumes that the ills that plague society are all due to the scarcity of resources, and that once that vanishes everything will be honky dorey. The individuals' lust for power goes beyond resources, since it is driven by a desire to control other humans. Creating a system with ultimate control of all resources introduces a single point of failure in the system. Compromise that algorithm / computer and you have absolute power over everyone. No thanks.

IMO there will come a time when we move beyond scarcity - it will be in the decades following the advent of commercial fusion. The abundance of resources and energy will not negate the need for the personal ownership of property and it will not negate price as a mechanism for resource rationing, regardless of how powerful computers become or how benevolent the elites want us to believe they are.

People in the Soviet Union created shit too, was it all done under fear of death? come on now...
 

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