POV Question For Experienced Fiction Authors

[U.P. Author]

I just received my first review. It was positive, but had a couple of constructive criticism points. One will be answered already in the next book, the other left me with a puzzle. Now, it is only one review, so it's not enough to tell me to course correct, but I wanted to get some advice on it.
Here's the critique:
Another thing that bothered me was the p.o.v of the story. I would get lost and confused of which characters point of view I was reading.

Now, I have always read books that are third person and past tense. The popular book in this category seem to be dominated by first person, present tense. That was a challenge at first, but I'm used to it now. I only have a few chapters that aren't from the main characters POV, I never change POV within a chapter and I try to make it clear (without saying "Hey, this is Gavin's point of view!") by the first paragraph that it's someone else's POV. Unfortunately, the genre I have always read (Fantasy) is dominated with third person, so I have no experience with this. I have three options going forward and I was hoping to get some of you more experienced authors' input.

1. Keep doing it the way I am doing it, but try to be more clear, without being overt, about the POV change.

2. Keep first person POV with my main character, but when I switch to other characters, move to third person. This seems like it would make for a very disconcerting reading experience, but like I said, I have very little experience with first person books.

3. Switch to third person from now on. I obviously cannot do it for this series, but I can switch for all future ventures. This may cause false expectations for my readers though, so I'd probably need to create a different pen name.

Thoughts?

 

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[Magik]

It sounds like your book is in what is called 2nd person, or omniscient pov, where you basically switch to different pov and go inside multiple character's thoughts. One simple technique for making sure the reader understands you are switching to another character is to use a linespace (_____). I use it when I switch scenes in a chapter, even if it's the same character. It's such a simple technique, but they work wonders for the organization of a story.

I would also recommend reading Lonesome Dove, probably the greatest book ever written from multiple points of view. I know it's not your genre, but it may be helpful.

If you are writing a series, they should all be written in the same style. Beyond that, I don't know. It's impossible to be able to give much more advice than this, because what you are talking about goes beyond technique. You are talking about style, which is impossible to advise on without reading your work.

 

[AubreyRose]

It sounds like your book is in what is called 2nd person, or omniscient pov, where you basically switch to different pov and go inside multiple character's thoughts.

That's not second person, second person is "you", as in: "You stand in a room surrounded by rabid ferrets." You're thinking of third person omniscient.

I'm guessing you're switching first person POV back and forth, UP? Hopefully you are keeping the POV switches between chapters and not just section breaks. I would label the chapters with the names. Chapter 1: Julia. Chapter 2: Sam. Chapter 3: Julia. If you don't do that, you risk confusing a reader who just put down the book and is picking it back up in the middle.

I just wrote an article about this: http://howtowritearomancenovel.com/okay-but-seriously-stop-switching-pov/ so here, let me quote myself, hope this helps!

How To Switch Point of View Smoothly

Even if you’re switching POV from one chapter to the next, it’s easy for readers to get confused. Don’t let your readers get confused! Remember that they might be putting down your book in between chapters (I know, why can’t they just read it all in one go?) So make sure that you are writing the first few sentences in a way that the reader knows whose head they are in.

Bad chapter opening:

Fred smashed his hand down on the table. Mary sat there in silence and Fred sighed. How could I let things go this far?

Do you know who’s narrating? I don’t. Worse yet, I’ll assume that it’s Fred and the the next sentence reveals that it’s Mary. UCK! Immediately taken out of the story!

Better chapter opening:

Fred smashed his hand down on the table, a warning that he hoped he would never have to make again. Mary sat there in silence, a ring of light silhouetting her bowed head. Fred sighed. How could I let things go this far?

Whose POV is it? Fred’s. Obviously. It’s Fred’s chapter. And now I can go do things in Fred’s POV and not worry whether or not my readers are coming along for the ride.

 

[U.P. Author]

That's not second person, second person is "you", as in: "You stand in a room surrounded by rabid ferrets." You're thinking of third person omniscient.

I'm guessing you're switching first person POV back and forth, UP? Hopefully you are keeping the POV switches between chapters and not just section breaks. I would label the chapters with the names. Chapter 1: Julia. Chapter 2: Sam. Chapter 3: Julia. If you don't do that, you risk confusing a reader who just put down the book and is picking it back up in the middle.

I just wrote an article about this: http://howtowritearomancenovel.com/okay-but-seriously-stop-switching-pov/ so here, let me quote myself, hope this helps!

How To Switch Point of View Smoothly

Even if you’re switching POV from one chapter to the next, it’s easy for readers to get confused. Don’t let your readers get confused! Remember that they might be putting down your book in between chapters (I know, why can’t they just read it all in one go?) So make sure that you are writing the first few sentences in a way that the reader knows whose head they are in.

Bad chapter opening:

Fred smashed his hand down on the table. Mary sat there in silence and Fred sighed. How could I let things go this far?

Do you know who’s narrating? I don’t. Worse yet, I’ll assume that it’s Fred and the the next sentence reveals that it’s Mary. UCK! Immediately taken out of the story!

Better chapter opening:

Fred smashed his hand down on the table, a warning that he hoped he would never have to make again. Mary sat there in silence, a ring of light silhouetting her bowed head. Fred sighed. How could I let things go this far?

Whose POV is it? Fred’s. Obviously. It’s Fred’s chapter. And now I can go do things in Fred’s POV and not worry whether or not my readers are coming along for the ride.

Perfect! Thank you. I have been using chapter breaks to change POV, but I may be falling into the bad opening scenario. That definitely needs to get fixed.
My first character POV change I tried to make use of a complete scenery change in the first paragraph to show it was someone else, before using the second paragraph to show a different person altogether.
Here it is:
"Large cushioned chairs line the walls of the room, making a U around an ornate table. The table offers coffee and doughnuts for anyone interested. Just before noon, small sandwiches and cool water bottles will be brought out as replacements. At the edge of the room sits a large desk, angled to face both the waiting area and the elevator. Behind the desk is a wall of windows through which can be seen the gleaming metal and dark asphalt of New York.
I catch my reflection in the window. Dirty blond hair that looks unkempt no matter what I do with it. My jeans, boots and button down plaid shirt, coupled with my larger than average frame, make me look more suited to the construction site than the high rise office. I would be more comfortable there too."

I can see now how I could have done this more skillfully and eliminated the possible character confusion. Thanks again!

 

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[RogueInnovation]

For me, there is a sin in changing minor details that aren't content critical that affect your process.

SOME people will make useless comments even if you are a well established author, so you have to take it all with a grain of salt.

Ask yourself, what is the best way to write it, and do it that way.


I'm unusual in how I write, I don't actually write, I just relentlessly plot. Once the plot is unshakeable, I then focus on refining the archs and how I'll organise them to help development of story and character.

The last thing I do is write. And my reasoning is that, writing can bottleneck and become abstract and fold in on itself in ugly ways that can distract from absorbing the story and have people's focus where it should never be, on my writing.

My point is that you want to ask yourself why they are focusing on the pov.
Was it trivial to them and they were looking for flaws (no reason to change then), was it more difficult and they said they had to give up and sanctioned blame on the pov (must not blame the scapegoat, pov doesn't make you quit reading)


My earlier drafts have very little writing, I just discuss, portion off where the work goes. And this process forces me to ask questions about all kinds of facets, rather than fixating on one thing people expressed distaste in.

My point is, don't get bullied into a corner by your audience, instead ask more pertinent questions than they do, address all of them better than they could, and string them along through the journey so they don't have time to criticise.


I'm a really confusing writer, thats mainly why I plot so much. My strength is one liners, and description, so I try to measure exactly where it is going to be impactful rather than "lean" on it and do it all the time. If you do things where they have the best impact you never have to overdo it, and you never really should.
As a writer I think we have to be humble with using our strengths otherwise we might lean on them, overdo them, and confuse readers.

Instead I think it is important to impose limits on artistic liscence for the sake of clarity and professionalism, because, if you cloud the important points people start drifting and lookn for stuff to blame like the pov or any other "consistent" writing technique they can find.

General irritation therefore leads readers to criticise what is the most pain in the butt to change, like tense or perspective. And if you go off changing the whole structure you get in a whole other mess, and havent dealt with the real issue.

It sends you on a wild goose chase doing massive revisions, changing structural things etc for nothing. Forget that!!!


I try to make my 5 stories (I just have one project and I mull over it and do it as a pleasure project) have such compelling plot that essentially my only job as a writer is to not mess it up.

You never want to convince people on your story by your writing, you want people to forget your writing for your story and you wanna get out of the way.


Its human nature to wanna stamp ourselves into the work but I think when you truly discipline yourself and pull back the results are far more readable.


Those are my thoughts on readability.

Regarding perspective and point of view in fantasy (my genre too) I think it comes down to the value trade off between, that more down to earth personal space, versus the cooler external perception.
One focuses on the strengthswe see in ourselves and one focuses on the strength we see in others.

To answer which is best for me is tough until I know what is going to tip the story in a better direction or make it flow better.
Typically what you are strongest at would be the best choice but if you are going for a home run I think you just have to do what you can to reveal which will demonstrate you favorite moments the best.

I looked down to see the gun in my hand.
He stood there, a sihloette in the echo and smoke of the blast, looking down in a state of shock at what he had just done.

You have to ask how you are going to write these moments best on a consistent basis.
You also want to ask what the trouble areas for readers were and look at them too.

Ultimately, my point is that you can set up plans so these choices aren't made blind but compartmentalised as much as possible. It is the only damn thing that keeps me sane and it might help you avoid chasing geese.

 

[U.P. Author]

For me, there is a sin in changing minor details that aren't content critical that affect your process.

SOME people will make useless comments even if you are a well established author, so you have to take it all with a grain of salt.

Ask yourself, what is the best way to write it, and do it that way.


I'm unusual in how I write, I don't actually write, I just relentlessly plot. Once the plot is unshakeable, I then focus on refining the archs and how I'll organise them to help development of story and character.

The last thing I do is write. And my reasoning is that, writing can bottleneck and become abstract and fold in on itself in ugly ways that can distract from absorbing the story and have people's focus where it should never be, on my writing.

My point is that you want to ask yourself why they are focusing on the pov.
Was it trivial to them and they were looking for flaws (no reason to change then), was it more difficult and they said they had to give up and sanctioned blame on the pov (must not blame the scapegoat, pov doesn't make you quit reading)


My earlier drafts have very little writing, I just discuss, portion off where the work goes. And this process forces me to ask questions about all kinds of facets, rather than fixating on one thing people expressed distaste in.

My point is, don't get bullied into a corner by your audience, instead ask more pertinent questions than they do, address all of them better than they could, and string them along through the journey so they don't have time to criticise.


I'm a really confusing writer, thats mainly why I plot so much. My strength is one liners, and description, so I try to measure exactly where it is going to be impactful rather than "lean" on it and do it all the time. If you do things where they have the best impact you never have to overdo it, and you never really should.
As a writer I think we have to be humble with using our strengths otherwise we might lean on them, overdo them, and confuse readers.

Instead I think it is important to impose limits on artistic liscence for the sake of clarity and professionalism, because, if you cloud the important points people start drifting and lookn for stuff to blame like the pov or any other "consistent" writing technique they can find.

General irritation therefore leads readers to criticise what is the most pain in the butt to change, like tense or perspective. And if you go off changing the whole structure you get in a whole other mess, and havent dealt with the real issue.

It sends you on a wild goose chase doing massive revisions, changing structural things etc for nothing. Forget that!!!


I try to make my 5 stories (I just have one project and I mull over it and do it as a pleasure project) have such compelling plot that essentially my only job as a writer is to not mess it up.

You never want to convince people on your story by your writing, you want people to forget your writing for your story and you wanna get out of the way.


Its human nature to wanna stamp ourselves into the work but I think when you truly discipline yourself and pull back the results are far more readable.


Those are my thoughts on readability.

Regarding perspective and point of view in fantasy (my genre too) I think it comes down to the value trade off between, that more down to earth personal space, versus the cooler external perception.
One focuses on the strengthswe see in ourselves and one focuses on the strength we see in others.

To answer which is best for me is tough until I know what is going to tip the story in a better direction or make it flow better.
Typically what you are strongest at would be the best choice but if you are going for a home run I think you just have to do what you can to reveal which will demonstrate you favorite moments the best.

I looked down to see the gun in my hand.
He stood there, a sihloette in the echo and smoke of the blast, looking down in a state of shock at what he had just done.

You have to ask how you are going to write these moments best on a consistent basis.
You also want to ask what the trouble areas for readers were and look at them too.

Ultimately, my point is that you can set up plans so these choices aren't made blind but compartmentalised as much as possible. It is the only damn thing that keeps me sane and it might help you avoid chasing geese.

What a fantastic answer. Especially the "get out of the way" bit. Awesome!
If I understand correctly, you are what they call an architect. I couldn't write that way. Just having more than a vague idea of how my book will end is almost enough to make me feel stifled. I am definitely a gardner writer. I have a general idea of what the story is going to be, but as the characters grow, the plot sometimes changes. Not the direction, just the details. As I get to know my characters I realize that they would respond much differently than I originally planed. It's actually really weird, because I am a very strategic peeson, so I was sure I'd be an architect too. Anyway, thanks again for the response.

 

[RogueInnovation]

Hey you are totally welcome.

I think that characters are meant to shift, but from my view point, it must always happen in some rails/braces.
Its the braces I adjust (and I adjust them slowly) rather than trying to micromanage the story or character (which will stifle it).

I think all writers at least mentally brace their characters, I just like to write it down, refine it, and take it out of the abstract/willful area of my imagination.

I am in love with foreshadowing so rather than let a character or story fly anywhere (harder to follow/foreshadow), I create really nuanced and subtle braces/rails, between which the character can do anything and grow BUT not in direct or immediate conflict with the first idea/brace.

When the character goes outside that restraint it is fair to say that the brace has to resist it, and the stiory has to show this moment as important, because this is where they are growing more complex.


I think everyone instinctively keeps an eye on that, but you really can do it formally and I enjoy the process of character development more if its purposeful, and when I know the sacrifices I'm making for what gains.

To me thats like the "chess" component of writing, where you make stories very SOUND, and then use your creativity to keep it flexible and true.


My braces aren't crazy rigid, its things like "he is the man that turns his back on love because he can't let go of duty". And later in the story you might realise the brace is actually that he "is in pain from his duty and doesn't have enough of his soul left for love" and that reveals to the audience that he needs support in his duty, that he feels alone, and because of that loneliness can't learn to love, because he walks away too soon.

So in order to show that change I create space for the audience to observe, view, and explore that development (once the idea has come to me)


So the brace starts one way, it stays that way but becomes more developed, and if he BREAKS that brace its a huge deal, and I can foreshadow it by slightly altering the first brace, and building the right tempo before it changes.

So lets say at the last moment this lonely guy changes, he gets support from some ancient words of someone before him "I thought I was destined to walk into the desert, but never realised I was creating the desert behind me" and he realises "oh no, I love her and have abandoned her!".

Now that is a huge change in his character and needs work to adjust, but it isn't anything to be scared of XD.


Adding a few braces, a few struts, can help you make time for events/descriptions/backstory, and help you really get precise on what you mean. And when you are precise you can get things across clearer.

My number one flaw, is when I'm kind of confused, the audience is TOTALLY lost
So haha, I have to take measures.


Sounds like you are really having fun though, thats the most important part, without that, the writing shrivels up.

Keep at it I'm sure you'll find your own fixes as I developed my own for these kind of critiques, all the best with it, hope you create a new favorite.

 

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[COSenior]

I catch my reflection in the window.

I'm glad @AubreyRose stepped in with a link to her tutorial, which I received in my email last night and found very helpful. I highly recommend reading it in its entirety, which will tell you why I quoted what I did above.

Don't worry about early reviews. Use what makes sense to improve your craft, and chalk the rest up to any number of things, including readers who can't read or don't pay attention, other authors trying to pull you down, and people who just love to hear themselves talk. I mean no disrespect, but not everyone is a critical reader; not everyone is a skilled reviewer. Their opinion is just that: opinion. Now, if you have ten reviews and all ten say 'I can't tell who's talking', that would be something to take as valid and work on, as you're doing. Very few people can hit a home run without a few practice swings.

 

[Rem]

I wrote my book in 3rd person and hopped from different character's point of view. @COSenior has read it so maybe she can tell you how effective I was, but I tried to do what @AubreyRose suggested. Toward the end when all the action was happening, instead of starting a completely new chapter, I simply placed a divider in the chapter and started a new section in the POV of a new character.

 

[COSenior]

I never found myself lost as to whose eyes I was looking out of, @Rem

 

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[U.P. Author]

I'm glad @AubreyRose stepped in with a link to her tutorial, which I received in my email last night and found very helpful. I highly recommend reading it in its entirety, which will tell you why I quoted what I did above.

Don't worry about early reviews. Use what makes sense to improve your craft, and chalk the rest up to any number of things, including readers who can't read or don't pay attention, other authors trying to pull you down, and people who just love to hear themselves talk. I mean no disrespect, but not everyone is a critical reader; not everyone is a skilled reviewer. Their opinion is just that: opinion. Now, if you have ten reviews and all ten say 'I can't tell who's talking', that would be something to take as valid and work on, as you're doing. Very few people can hit a home run without a few practice swings.

Thanks COSenior. I'm fairly thick skinned, just trying to get it right. I know what you are talking about on the article. Lol
"*Please don’t write any scenes where your character is looking into a mirror. It is a terrible way to describe your main character, and I’m guilty as hell of doing it, but it’s really a crutch. No mirrors allowed!"
Funny thing is, it felt kind of cheap when I did it. Lol
Thanks again for the encouragement.

 

[LibertyForMe]

"*Please don’t write any scenes where your character is looking into a mirror. It is a terrible way to describe your main character, and I’m guilty as hell of doing it, but it’s really a crutch. No mirrors allowed!"

Curse you guys. LOL. I just wrote a scene where the character is looking at herself in the polished surface of a table....basically the same as a mirror. Any recommendations about how to describe appearance in a non-lame way?

Found this link, but still would like to hear info from yall personally. http://thebookshelfmuse.blogspot.com/2010/04/writers-bane-describing-characters.html

 

[COSenior]

I've heard it said that you shouldn't describe a character, especially not a first-person character. Because my genre likes alternating POVs, I get to use the 'dole it out in small bites' method advocated in that article. In one scene of my upcoming novel, it's revealed that the main character has strawberry-blond hair that is going to have to be colored to help protect her identity. If it weren't for that observation, we wouldn't need to know her hair color at all; it doesn't impact the story. In another, we learn that the male protagonist is tall, but not as tall as his Paul Bunyon-like brother-in-law, who is a very minor character.

It doesn't take much to give the hints that the story requires. I can have my female lead observe that the male is good-looking and vice versa. That means something different to everyone. I like my dream book boyfriends with brown hair. Maybe I wouldn't like the book as well if the writer insists her character is blond. I can say for sure that reading that his hair is black takes me out of the story.(Jasinda Wilder, take note.) So few people have actually black hair, and I've never seen emerald-green eyes.

Everything you don't need to tell the story should be left to the reader's imagination. If you simply must describe your character, do it in small bites. Otherwise you have an information dump that's boring.

 

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[AubreyRose]

Thanks COSenior. I'm fairly thick skinned, just trying to get it right. I know what you are talking about on the article. Lol
"*Please don’t write any scenes where your character is looking into a mirror. It is a terrible way to describe your main character, and I’m guilty as hell of doing it, but it’s really a crutch. No mirrors allowed!"
Funny thing is, it felt kind of cheap when I did it. Lol
Thanks again for the encouragement.

Haha, I catch myself doing it ALL. THE. TIME. It's so freaking hard, everybody looks in mirrors every day! But yeah, I like leaving most of the description up to the imagination. I remember reading Nancy Drew, and without fail, one of the first pages would talk about her "strawberry blonde hair"... got SO predictable after a few books, even little kid me knew it

 

[Rem]

Here are two examples I used in my book using reflections. I think if you were to use reflections to describe your characters it should be brief and then move on. It probably should only be used to enhance the moment.

Page 103:
"In the upper corner of the ceiling hung a surveillance camera. On the far wall was a large mirror, where he caught a glimpse of his own reflection. He looked awful. Jack wore his hair short but it still managed to look unkempt. All Jack could think about were the interrogation rooms that were portrayed in many of his favorite action movies."

Page 127:
"Realizing it now, Jack was on a mission to cripple the very organization he had worked so hard to help build. He had to be stopped at all cost.
John finished running a comb through his thin gray hair, looked one last time at himself in the mirror, and knew he was getting old. This was his time. No man is going to screw this up for me now."