Needs to be said... sell the DAMN motorcycle.

[JordanK]

Everyday sitting in hours of traffic frustrated watching motorbikes and ebikes fly by me. This thread getting bumped constantly reminds me its not worth saving a few minutes everyday just to die 50 years too early.

 

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[Roli]

Another motorcyclist dead who did nothing wrong but putting himself on the road with 1000s of distracted morons.

View attachment 55024


View attachment 55025

In England, we don't let 18 year olds drive cars that are capable of going more than 150 mph! Even if they have the money, no insurance company will insure them for this very reason.

Absolutely tragic.

 

[NervesOfSteel]

I rode for over a decade. It was an instant decision to stop riding when our then two year old wouldn’t stop hugging me when I put him to bed. I had to get in with him till he fell asleep. I’d been away for two days for the first time in his life and that was the effect it had on him.

I went from die-hard biker riding through Irish winters to getting rid of it immediately. I’ve never ridden since and have no intention of doing so.

Ditto!

gave up 3 decade of hardcore motorcycling for my little bundle of joy, in an instant, and I do not regret it!

 

[FastNAwesome]

I have friends riding all kinds of bikes, and it gave me some perspective.
I treat every motorcycle on the road like it was my friend.

At traffic lights, I leave 2-3m in front of me so they can pass.
I move aside when I can. And also never race.

They're the most badass, but among the most vulnerable traffic participants too.

 

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[Johnny boy]

On another note, you’re going to die someday, and it feels amazing to cruise on a classic bike through the Mexican jungle and through the canyons.

You pull off some random dirt road and find a hidden beach and go for a swim, life is good.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

you’re going to die someday

There are much worse outcomes than death.

Some aren't so lucky and end up paralyzed with traumatic brain injuries and can never speak a coherent sentence again—all because of some distracted moron who got 3 years probation for their negligence.

Oh BTW, that was my next door neighbor who also was vehement proponent of his motorcycle freedom, the whole Harley archetype complete with the leather and bandanas. Yet, the last 17 years of his life has been without freedom, without coherence, and he's become a burden to his wife as he needs to wear diapers.

Oh, but at least he got to drive to Walmart on his bike 17 years ago.

If you could ask him (you cannot) he would have gladly chosen death.

and it feels amazing

Wearing diapers don't feel amazing. What also won't feel amazing is having the back 40 years of your life stuck sucking on a straw on a gurney, all because Tommy TikTok thought it necessary to video his latest stream while driving. What makes it worse is you have much more to lose...

through the Mexican jungle and through the canyons.

Probably one of the only ways to do it with some peace and serenity... completely away from humanity.

At least you got that right.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

There are much worse outcomes than death

As scary as the stories you shared are, I personally feel you can’t always prevent bad things from happening to you and trying to always prevent something bad is a recipe for misery (I can tell you this, since I suffer from OCD, and OCD is ALL about eliminating the possibility of any bad thing happening, which of course isn’t something we can control).

All of this is fuelled by the belief that “XYZ is such a terrible thing, that you should do anything possible to prevent it, no matter how unlikely”

Nevertheless, no matter what you do, there are some probabilities you cannot really change. There are neurological disorders that can leave you virtually paralyzed for the rest of your life. For example ALS, from which Stephen Hawking suffered. Another example is Multiple Sclerosis. Then there are acquired diseases such as a whole host of Neglected Tropical Diseases (NTDs) that you would be at risk of if you travelled in Africa.

Sure these are rare. But they can still happen right?

Then there are thousands of other possible accidents, not just those involving motorcycles.

What about riding on an ATV flipping, breaking your back and remaining paralyzed? Or riding a jet ski and getting into an accident with another jet ski? Or a kid jumping on your back while you’re in a swimming pool and breaking your back.

So literarily the most certain strategy to prevent anything bad from happening to you is literarily never go out of your house, unless you absolutey need to. Avoid traveling, because the airplane can fall out of the sky, or the pilot can go psycho and crash the plane on purpose. Avoid going to place like Africa because you could catch one of those little known diseases. Don’t sit on the grass because you could catch lyme disease. And so on.

That’s severly limited as a life. Consider the fact that our ancestors faced the risk of a fate worse than death almost on a daily basis if you go back in time. How could they manage to live without fear? They had little medicine and almost no understanding of things around them.

Hanibal Barca lost sight in one of his eyes while crossing the Alps to attack Rome. Shrugged it off stoically and kept going. Imo we don’t have that strength of spirit anymore, and that makes us handicaped. Yes, we may avoid some bad things, but we also miss out on a lot of good things.

And I agree don’t take “stupid” risks is generally good advice. But some things can’t be avoided. So imo the better question is how to we develop the strength to face them? How do you develop the strength to face the possibility of lifelong paralysis or death or whatever without fear?

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

As scary as the stories you shared are, I personally feel you can’t always prevent bad things from happening to you and trying to always prevent something bad is a recipe for misery (I can tell you this, since I suffer from OCD, and OCD is ALL about eliminating the possibility of any bad thing happening, which of course isn’t something we can control).

All of this is fuelled by the belief that “XYZ is such a terrible thing, that you should do anything possible to prevent it, no matter how unlikely”

Nevertheless, no matter what you do, there are some probabilities you cannot really change. There are neurological disorders that can leave you virtually paralyzed for the rest of your life. For example ALS, from which Stephen Hawking suffered. Another example is Multiple Sclerosis. Then there are acquired diseases such as a whole host of Neglected Tropical Diseases (NTDs) that you would be at risk of if you travelled in Africa.

Sure these are rare. But they can still happen right?

Then there are thousands of other possible accidents, not just those involving motorcycles.

What about riding on an ATV flipping, breaking your back and remaining paralyzed? Or riding a jet ski and getting into an accident with another jet ski? Or a kid jumping on your back while you’re in a swimming pool and breaking your back.

So literarily the most certain strategy to prevent anything bad from happening to you is literarily never go out of your house, unless you absolutey need to. Avoid traveling, because the airplane can fall out of the sky, or the pilot can go psycho and crash the plane on purpose. Avoid going to place like Africa because you could catch one of those little known diseases. Don’t sit on the grass because you could catch lyme disease. And so on.

That’s severly limited as a life. Consider the fact that our ancestors faced the risk of a fate worse than death almost on a daily basis if you go back in time. How could they manage to live without fear? They had little medicine and almost no understanding of things around them.

Hanibal Barca lost sight in one of his eyes while crossing the Alps to attack Rome. Shrugged it off stoically and kept going. Imo we don’t have that strength of spirit anymore, and that makes us handicaped. Yes, we may avoid some bad things, but we also miss out on a lot of good things.

And I agree don’t take “stupid” risks is generally good advice. But some things can’t be avoided. So imo the better question is how to we develop the strength to face them? How do you develop the strength to face the possibility of lifelong paralysis or death or whatever without fear?

Clearly math and probability isn't your strong suit.

Riding a jet ski isn't the same as cruising down the 405 in rush hour traffic.

But nice rationalization.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Clearly math and probability isn't your strong suit.

Riding a jet ski isn't the same as cruising down the 405 in rush hour traffic.

But nice rationalization

I don’t have a bike, I only had a scooter years ago. No plans on getting a bike either. So no need to rationalize, as far as I’m personally concerned. I have no beef in this either pro or against and probably won’t ride a bike/scooter ever again.

Here’s what I’m interested in: when does the probability of death/accident become sufficiently high to warrant NOT doing the activity, whether that’s riding the motorcycle or something else?

Personally I feel there is no final answer to this question because some people like Johnny may value it more than you or I do, and hence are happy to accept a bigger probability of death/disability than us.

 

[DoTheWork]

Last year I sold my brand new car and picked up a new Honda Grom (fun 125cc for getting around town) because I needed to cut expenses. I also don't need a car. I don't commute and have been sick for 2.5 years so I'm not going out much. Everything I need is pretty much within 5-10 minutes of my apartment.

It's a ton of fun, but I'm aware of the risks associated with it and it's never made sense to me. Just doesn't seem worth it. This has always been my opinion both before and after owning a bike.

When I get my income situation better sorted out, I'm buying a car. I'll probably keep the bike for quick local rides but won't use it much.

In the meantime, I take the most obscure roads that I can with minimal cross-streets. I rarely need to go above 40mph. Still tons of risk, but I'm just trying to keep the risks down until I can get a car.

I don't regret my decision at all and I'm glad I'm experiencing it, but riding a motorcycle long-term doesn't make any sense to me. The math doesn't add up.

 

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[Jon822]

I don’t have a bike, I only had a scooter years ago. No plans on getting a bike either. So no need to rationalize, as far as I’m personally concerned. I have no beef in this either pro or against and probably won’t ride a bike/scooter ever again.

Here’s what I’m interested in: when does the probability of death/accident become sufficiently high to warrant NOT doing the activity, whether that’s riding the motorcycle or something else?

Personally I feel there is no final answer to this question because some people like Johnny may value it more than you or I do, and hence are happy to accept a bigger probability of death/disability than us.

This thread is not about some arbitrary cutoff percentage where something becomes "too risky." It's about the fact that driving a motorcycle in a swarm of distracted idiots is a pointless risk. Obviously people can choose to value the "fun" of riding over the risk but it is almost always out of mathematical ignorance, not a differing expected value based on higher risk tolerance.

There's a big difference between minimizing all risks by rarely leaving your house and avoiding unnecessary risks while enjoying others that you almost entirely control. Conflating these two would be like saying since you can get struck by an asteroid, you might as well play Russian roulette and drive with your eyes closed.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

This thread is not about some arbitrary cutoff percentage where something becomes "too risky." It's about the fact that driving a motorcycle in a swarm of distracted idiots is a pointless risk. Obviously people can choose to value the "fun" of riding over the risk but it is almost always out of mathematical ignorance, not a differing expected value based on higher risk tolerance.

Riding a motorcycle, unlike say smoking cigarettes, doesn’t do progressive damage. Smoking does damage regardless of whether you get lung cancer or not. Riding a motorcycle does damage only if you have an accident.

Therefore riding a motorcycle represents a series of INDEPENDENT events. The fact you rode 10,000 times already safely doesn’t make it anymore lilely that you’ll have a bad accident next time you ride.

Smoking on the other hand represents dependent events. The fact you smoked in the past, increases your chances of getting lung cancer if you continue smoking now.

When it comes to probabilities, we have a big question of actually determining what the probabilities are IN YOUR CASE.

Sure we have some stats. A preponderent number of disability-causing auto accidents involve motorcycles even though motorcycles represent a tiny fraction of all vehicles and some such. But this isn’t good indication.

You need to factor out in how many cases it was the motorcyclist’s fault or they could have prevented it, how many times motorcyclists didn’t wear their helmet or protective gear, how many times they were speeding and so on.

Normal stats indicate that a motorcycle is around 36x as likely to lead to a bad accident as a car, depending on where you get your stats from. After you factor out the elements mentioned above, this reduces to 6x as likely to lead to a bad accident. Math with these things is fuzzy anyway, you won’t be able to have exact data.

And even after you figure out what the probabilities are… you still have to assess whether the pros outweigh the cons for YOU. That is incredibly hard, and people will fall on both sides of the issue as they have different values.

Horseriding, for example, is statistically speaking more dangerous then motorcycle riding or skiing. Anything that involves speed and your body being directly exposed to the elements is dangerous, obviously. Our ancestors rode horses like chads — the horse threw you off, kicked you, etc. you were dead or disfigured. Schumacher went skiing, had an accident, and he’s been a vegetable ever since.

Shall we say “no more skiing! People die” — that’s stupid. It’s an individual choice.

The bigger concern imo which nobody wants to discuss, is how should you handle risks? What is the smart, intelligent way to handle risks? Should you minimize risk as much as possible? Should you not care? (Obviously those are two extremes) When does risk become sufficiently high to justify abstaining from the activity? Are probabilities even relevant here — afterall something like driving skill is hard to put into an equation?

These are all valid questions that a discussion on this topic should seek to explore, regardless of how they’re answered. Horror stories are fine, they have an emotional impact. But they’re not a way to handle a rational argument on the topic.

I have OCD — believe me, to me even tiny small and remote possibilities get taken into account. And it’s precisely because I am deeply familiar with the definite losses than can be gained due to risk avoidance of possible losses in the future that I say this requires deeper thought from everyone.

 

[heavy_industry]

If you're ready to risk life and limb to get high on freedom, buy a small F*cking plane and go fly with it.

Here's how it compares to a motorcycle:

• Same risk, or slightly lower
• 100x more adrenaline and freedom
• You won't get pulled over
• Nobody is going to kill you - you die from your own lack of skills
• 0% chance of ending up like @MJ DeMarco 's neighbor - any and all crashes come with a 100% death rate money-back warranty

If you insist on not having a roof over your head when driving, get a convertible and call it a day.

 

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[Jon822]

Riding a motorcycle, unlike say smoking cigarettes, doesn’t do progressive damage. Smoking does damage regardless of whether you get lung cancer or not. Riding a motorcycle does damage only if you have an accident.

It doesn't matter at all that there are other risks that are higher or that other activities do cumulative damage. It's completely irrelevant to analyzing the risk of motorcycle riding.

You need to factor out in how many cases it was the motorcyclist’s fault or they could have prevented it, how many times motorcyclists didn’t wear their helmet or protective gear, how many times they were speeding and so on.

Even if you want to assume that a given motorcyclist is going to drive perfectly so you can rule out collisions where the motorcycle driver was at fault, you're still making the incorrect assumption that any rider without a helmet would have been unharmed had he or she been wearing one. So you cannot reduce the 36x multiple down to 6x.

Shall we say “no more skiing! People die” — that’s stupid. It’s an individual choice.

You're missing the entire point of this thread. Of course there are risks that increase the moment you leave your house to do anything. No one is saying to avoid any activity that has ever killed someone. It has to do with objectively understanding the numbers.

I have OCD — believe me, to me even tiny small and remote possibilities get taken into account. And it’s precisely because I am deeply familiar with the definite losses than can be gained due to risk avoidance of possible losses in the future that I say this requires deeper thought from everyone.

No, it's actually very simple. Anyone who understands the risk associated with motorcycle riding which is easily revealed by standardizing the serious injuries per mile driven can clearly see that it is very dangerous. This thread is merely meant to warn people of that danger. If someone chooses the fun of motorcycle riding over the risk, then that's a choice he or she can make.

 

[JordanK]

If I'm somewhere warm on holidays for a few weeks then maybe yes I would ride a motorcycle for a few days. As it'd be a great experience. If something happens then that's just super unfortunate but the fun/memories are worth the increased chances of a bad outcome over those few days.

For me the increased chances of death/injury from having it as a daily driver in my rainy traffic filled city isn't worth the time saved everyday. I would regret my decision to ride the motorbike if anything happened.

 

[NervesOfSteel]

It doesn't matter at all that there are other risks that are higher or that other activities do cumulative damage. It's completely irrelevant to analyzing the risk of motorcycle riding.


Even if you want to assume that a given motorcyclist is going to drive perfectly so you can rule out collisions where the motorcycle driver was at fault, you're still making the incorrect assumption that any rider without a helmet would have been unharmed had he or she been wearing one. So you cannot reduce the 36x multiple down to 6x.


You're missing the entire point of this thread. Of course there are risks that increase the moment you leave your house to do anything. No one is saying to avoid any activity that has ever killed someone. It has to do with objectively understanding the numbers.


No, it's actually very simple. Anyone who understands the risk associated with motorcycle riding which is easily revealed by standardizing the serious injuries per mile driven can clearly see that it is very dangerous. This thread is merely meant to warn people of that danger. If someone chooses the fun of motorcycle riding over the risk, then that's a choice he or she can make.

In 2005, my batchmate, a member of our gang, got his bike smashed by a mammoth truck due to excessive over speeding.
In 2007, I saw 2 getting hospitalized because some as*hole decided to take a U turn anywhere he wanted. 1 of them lost the ability to pick up his spoon, let alone get on a bike. The other one escaped with an amputated leg.

In 2009, my close friend smashed his bike in a race, and he was supposed to get married in a week. When I visited him, he had 6 metal F*cking sticks sticking out of his stomach and a few were holding his knees together. This guy was lucky for his fiance didn't dump him and worked with him for 2 years and got him back in his form!

But I was young and naive at that age. Too much adrenaline! The wind through my hair, I wanted to fly! I used to feel alive at that moment.

I used to feel sorry for my suffering friends but my un apologetic mindset was stuck at "they lacked the skills to ride a bike, just wannabes of the gang" ..

I had nothing to loose back then!

Had I died? I didn't cared back then! Life is cheap in 3rd world nations!

But when I became a dad, My life became too valuable to be spared in a worthless motorbike crash!


So everyone is OK with their perspective.

The only question is, are you willing to risk it all, because some brainwashed old fart decided that the driving rules are a conspiracy and decided to take a U-Turn on your adrenaline rush of feeling like an eagle or something!

And yes, during those days, I too have had crashes, and I have scars on every limb, nothing major though ... I have escaped death on more than one occasion!

I second with @MJ DeMarco , I sold my motorcycles for Good!

 

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[Kak]

A few years ago I lost my Mercedes S550 in a wreck. Completley totaled.

I was stopped at a red light.

It's not about how good you are. Take a look. A third of people you drive by are screwing with their phone. On a motorcycle, I would have been killed just sitting there.

That said, I want a couple of electric dirt bikes for cruising the national forest and perhaps for, ever more likely, SHTF scenarios.

Segway Dirt eBike X260

Enhanced power and improved features make the X260 a snap to master and a blast to ride.

store.segway.com

 

[NervesOfSteel]

A few years ago I lost my Mercedes S550 in a wreck. Completley totaled.

I was stopped at a red light.

It's not about how good you are. Take a look. A third of people you drive by are screwing with their phone. On a motorcycle, I would have been killed just sitting there.

That said, I want a couple of electric dirt bikes for cruising the national forest and perhaps for, ever more likely, SHTF scenarios.

Segway Dirt eBike X260

Enhanced power and improved features make the X260 a snap to master and a blast to ride.

store.segway.com

Do you belong to the software/computer industry?

 

[Jobless]

The bigger concern imo which nobody wants to discuss, is how should you handle risks? What is the smart, intelligent way to handle risks? Should you minimize risk as much as possible? Should you not care? (Obviously those are two extremes) When does risk become sufficiently high to justify abstaining from the activity? Are probabilities even relevant here — afterall something like driving skill is hard to put into an equation?

These are all valid questions that a discussion on this topic should seek to explore, regardless of how they’re answered. Horror stories are fine, they have an emotional impact. But they’re not a way to handle a rational argument on the topic.

I like this question.

Some types of risks to take into account:

1. Risk of ruin (usually this refers to financial ruin, but this is not ultimate ruin in life. In the context of overall risk, it means death or other irreversible problems like a life in prison, becoming paralyzed etc. Note that some people believe in an afterlife, or seek to avoid pain to the extent that they deem living unbearable. This changes the risk equation for them.)
2. Genetic risk (risk towards the health and wellbeing of family members, especially children. If your children/family are taken care of, are they still dependent on your survival? Maybe not. Does it matter if your become a burden to your family? For many people, this matters in decision making. Mostly, the objective of genetic survival/procreation is subconcious, but maintaining the genetic line is a part of our decision making. It's evolutionarily beneficial).
3. Ethical risk (Breaking principles of faith/morals/culture. Hurting strangers, the innocent, your own community, mankind, animals, the environment etc. According to different systems of belief, hurting a stranger or group-outsider is deemed wrong or acceptable. According to some collectivist beliefs, the whole is more important than the constituent parts, and for some individual rights take priority over the collective good. The ultimate ethical risk is to become an outcast, to spend eternity in hell, to have bad karma, etc.).
4. Time potential risk (This complicates risk estimation as it puts a finite constraint on things we value infinitely. For example, many of us want to live forever, but it seems unavoidable that one day we will die. Why do we value the life of children above adults? Why do we value youth and potential? Is it worse to die when motorcycle riding at 20 than at 70 years old? When is the optimal age to risk it all, if there is one?)

Some thoughts on rational ways to handle risk:

1. If you're not aware of your own beliefs and ethical stances, this will subconciously affect your risk equation. The more self-aware you are, the better you will be at making a rational approximation of risk. Our biology also plays a part in appetite for risk, for example high testosterone will increase risk tolerance.
2. Ascertain the possibility of outcomes, which in turn decides the gravity of the decision. If the catastrophic risks that actually matter are mentioned above, and none of these outcomes are possbile, the risk is not real. When playing poker, you make estimates of risk, but the stakes are trivial. The risk can be seen as 'limited' whereas when the question is life-or-death, it is 'unlimited.' In either case, you will make better decisions if you estimate rationally, based on statistical probabilities if possible.
3. It is helpful to prioritize what you value, more so than trying to quantify the value. If for example you value 'being alive' higher than 'ceasing to live' this becomes a rule of thumb. We can classify activities such as 'skydiving' or 'motorcycling' as recreational risk-taking. You are not forced to engage in them and you make the choice to trade risk of death/injury for +99.9% chance it's going to be a fun time. Is this wrong rationally? Not necessarily, when you take into account that life is limited in time (this means life is of limited value rationally), but some will judge it as wrong (most belief systems hold sanctity of life as important, and that sacrifice of life shall not take place in vain).

So, the question depends on what you value highest: Your current life, your genetic line or your possible afterlife.

It's easy to feel the worth of our current experience of life. It's hard to predict consequences for your genetic line, afterlife, and for others. We have empathy and a reasoning mind to some extent, and I think the combination of empathy and reasoning, for most, lead them to see risk towards their genetic line and afterlife as most critical. A majority believe in a religion, most people have children, and only a minority consciously risk their life for enjoyment in extreme sports. These people are wired differently, due to value system, biology (young and dumb, testosterone) or mental disorder.

 

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[Kak]

Do you belong to the software/computer industry?

Chemicals.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Chemicals.

Did you ever share the story of how/why you got into chemicals on the forum or on your podcast?

Would be interesting since you don’t have a background in it. So was it that someone pulled you into it through a conversation, you decided to approach it because you read something in the news, or how did it happen?

 

[jclean]

Driving a motorcycle , never in my life ! 30 times ! More likely to have a fatal accident.

There is no such thing as a risk-free life. But you can increase your chances especially in traffic.Road safety I look at it one step further.

The day our 2nd child was born I bought a Volvo xc90.... First an old one from 2008
and now the new model why ?

Volvo's goal of zero occupant fatalities by 2020 appears to be well on track, after new data showed that the XC90 SUV has not had a single fatal accident in the UK since its introduction in 2002.

If there is an accident you will have the best chance of survival with this car. And that's all that matters....


Below an xc90 broken into 2 after a drunk driving accident. (The driver survived this)



As soon as you can afford it buy a safe car ! Especially if you have children

 

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[roguehillbilly]

Some horrible stories and necessary wake-ups in this thread I think.

I do occasionally ride a dirt bike on trails or open fields, never near traffic. I have a small pit bike and a bigger 200cc bike. I think there is much, much lower risk here and a decent tradeoff, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Jon822]

 

[Runum]

April is limb loss awareness month. According to the Amputee Coalition, as of February 2024, more than 5.6 million Americans live with limb loss or limb difference, including more than 2.3 million with limb loss and more than 3.4 million with limb difference. This means that one in 190 Americans currently has lost a limb, and that number may double by 2050.

Statically, most young people lose a limb due to a traumatic accident, motorcycle, sports, walking on ice. I have met many. Those that get injured in midlife seem to get bone infections following an injury that eventually lead to amputation. In the 50's and later circulation deficiencies lead to limb loss. The older you get, those simple, nagging, wounds just don't heal. Diabetes is a major contributing factor in late life limb loss. Your physical health is a main resource for your success. It's not about working out 3 days a week for a season. It's a lifetime commitment.

 

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