Pssst! Hey, buddy! Need an editor?

[Rainy_TX]

Hey everyone! I thought I'd send some love to my editor and post his contact info here for anyone that needs a good editor. His name is Weston Kincade. He does all sorts of genres, but if you're not sure, just ask him. Tell him Rainy sent ya!

http://www.wakeediting.com
http://www.kincadefiction.blogspot.com

 

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[Soothesayer]

Sounds $$$$$pensive.

I hear editors are a big scam these days, so says Dean Wesley Smith.

"Do you need some “editor” you could hire??? OH GOD NO!!!!! That’s a huge scam these days. If these so-called editors knew anything about being creative, they would write books themselves. So avoid at all costs. However, you will need a copyeditor. We all do to find basic mistakes we just don’t see and our first readers don’t see.

So have a first reader and a copyeditor. You can often find good copyeditors locally at newspapers and such who will work freelance for a few hundred per novel.

Trust your voice and keep learning. Learn craft, learn business, learn from everywhere and only listen to what seems right to you."
http://www.deanwesleysmith.com/?p=9879

 

[Get Right]

You get an A+ for the thread title.

 

[Rainy_TX]

I hear editors are a big scam these days

I'm sure there are a bunch of scam artists claiming to be editors. However, I wouldn't publish anything without the man I recommended going over it first. I use the term 'editor' loosely because he offers a variety of service levels, from just basic copy editing to even line editing.

To each their own, I suppose.

Trust your voice and keep learning. Learn craft, learn business, learn from everywhere and only listen to what seems right to you."

And I couldn't agree more with this.

 

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[COSenior]

I hear editors are a big scam these days, so says Dean Wesley Smith.

Maybe so, but if you know of one that someone else has used and recommended, it's a good thing. I looked at the link; his prices are pretty good compared to others I've seen. And if you don't think writers need an editor, try reading some of the debut indie novels in my genre. That'll change your mind in a hurry.

 

[ChickenHawk]

If these so-called editors knew anything about being creative, they would write books themselves.

No. Because writing and editing are not the same thing. Good writers aren't always good editors. Good editors aren't always good writers. And sometimes, writers supplement their income with writing and vice versa.

Besides, editing is one of those things you only notice if it's poorly done. If it's done well, it's seamless. That doesn't mean it's without value, IMO.

 

[joanna]

Sounds $$$$$pensive.

I hear editors are a big scam these days, so says Dean Wesley Smith.

I think I mentioned it in another thread already - I very much agree with DWS on many topics, but when he talks about not using an editor you have to take into consideration that he is not a first time writer, publishing the first draft, of his first book. If you look carefully at the method he suggests it originated with 1) write 2) submit for publication 3) write more while you wait for an answer.

The difference is that in the old days the lack of answer would deal with some of the early "training" writing. So yeah, you wouldn't really need an editor to go through your book cause it wouldn't even get that far. If someone is planning to publish their first ever book "as is" then, like hell it needs an editor. Sure you can do it, but unless you're some sort of writing prodigy, you can expect some nasty comments even if the plot is amazing.

Sure you can just release your training material. But there's a reason a lot of the successful people, who did it strictly for business often abandon their first, second, and so on pen names. Again, not a rule, but something to consider. There are people inspired by success stories who have never read fiction books that decide to start writing them (nothing wrong with that, mind you), but do you really believe every single one of them will produce a typo free, grammaticaly correct, well structured and well formatted book the first time they try?

Like others said, we use the term editor loosely here, so you should consider getting what you think you need. And there's many reasons beyond validation and fixing typos to use a professional second pair of eyes. For example, I aim for the US market, as it's the biggest one, but I'm in the UK and a non-native to boot. One of the things my editor does is make sure the spelling is consistently American and that the phrases used would be relateable for that audience.

Also calling all editors scammers is a bit rude. Just because you appreciate music and have an ear for it doesn't automatically make you a great musician. Just because you know theory behind art, doesn't mean you can actually create it yourself.

I have to say I didn't find him expensive. If anything his proof/copy editing prices were quite affordable, with the developmental a little bit high for me personally, but nothing I'm shocked to see.

 

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[Rawr]

I am curious about this topic because I know I make plenty of mistakes in my work.

So I hired a proofreader for the first time, and she pointed out a lot of commas. I don't know if this makes a huge difference to the reader - I have seen some truly atrocious punctuation before but the book did climb in ranking after the fact. What I am curious about is having:

A proofreader + 2 beta readers vs a copy editor?

My issue is that I like people to point out weak points in the story, but I want to trust myself too and afraid to give too much creative control over.

Also, for romance and especially steamier romance, I'd want someone who really understands the market and doesn't judge in any way.

also, the prices listed for proofreading is less than I pay my person.

 

[Breaking Free]

The more I get into self-publishing, the more I'm accepting there's two parts to this.

Writing and publishing.

Writing I'm creating the product, publishing I'm selling that product.

I want the best, cleanest product I can produce for my ability. I'll pay a copy editor, use beta readers, and hire out for pro covers.

Why? Because it makes a huge difference. All it took was one reviewer pointing out mistakes in the manuscript and it completely changed my mind (I had previously attempted to self edit). Do you want reviews on your work saying, "It was okay, but the typos and poor punctuation made it difficult to read," or just focus on whether or not they like your book?

If this was any other business, would you put out a less than perfect product? Do you want people returning it because it broke out of the box?

I spent about $200-$300 per book, roughly 40k to 60k words, for an edit. I'm paying $40-80 a cover, and that's with a discount. And my beta readers are priceless.

And I'm a huge DWS and KR fan, but most of their advice I have to take with a grain of salt. It's not for me. I'm not at their level, with thirty years of backlist and readers and their extensive following. I listen mostly to Hugh Howey, Blake Russell, Elle Casey, Daniel Arenson, to name a few, because they came a long way in a few short years, and it's easier for someone like me to follow their processes.

 

[Breaking Free]

Now I feel I should add my thoughts and process aren't the same as everyone elses. I write novels, and not everyone here does that. I also write in very unforgiving genres. Romance and erotica, if I wrote in those, I'd be more cover focused, and self edit shorter works around 5k-20k. Instead I'm writing 60k+ works, and I want them to be sharp. I hang a lot more onto a novel than a novella, especially since my genres can have some significant shelf life.

 

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[Soothesayer]

Also calling all editors scammers is a bit rude. Just because you appreciate music and have an ear for it doesn't automatically make you a great musician. Just because you know theory behind art, doesn't mean you can actually create it yourself.

If Dean says editors are a scam, then that is what they are. The man has over a hundred novels and has been in the biz for thirty years. I, too, found them to be scamming left and right when I wrote six thriller novels last year. They would strip my narrative voice right out of my work andchange the story to THEIR story using THEIR critical voice. Every one of them (editors, not COPY editors--there is a difference). The truth hurts, but it needs to be said. Nothing against beta readers or copyeditors but charging $800? That's a scam.

Fake reviewers constantly hit up their targets with upsells when authors email them privately to ask why their review is so out in left field (i.e. I'll remove my bad review if you pay me to edit your book). This stuff is rampant at Amazon.

 

[joanna]

You do realize a copy editor is an editor, right? One being a broader term encompassing the other. And I would still argue you're abusing the word scam. If you don't want people changing your voice, your plot, or whatever you find so precious then don't hire someone who does this sort of editing. Most professional editors offer a sample edit, use that to see if they understand your genre, and can work with your voice. Also just because an editor says something doesn't mean you have to agree with it.

"3) Do not rewrite unless to editorial demand. (Meaning New York book editors who can buy your work, not someone who you hire. It is fine to fix mistakes first readers find and spelling mistakes.) - See more at: http://www.deanwesleysmith.com/?p=11249#sthash.VNQuEJyp.dpuf"

Again, the New York editors he mentions in this context aren't just copy editors. Sure, at the point DWS is now he likely won't get much meddling in his work. But read around about what traditional publishing is like, and you'll quickly see that requesting heavy changes to submitted work, that (drastically) change voice, theme, plot, characters, etc. are not uncommon. That would count as Dean's "to editorial demand".

Fake reviewers asking for editing work - well that does sound like a scam to me.

 

[Breaking Free]

Yep. Every editor I work with offers a sample edit. If I don't like it, I move on.

Copy editors are great to have, at least to me. If I had to rate my time trying to edit my own work versus paying someone to do it, my time and money are better spent writing more words.

But some people need more, so editors adding input for story, etc., may be needed for some writers. Again, how is that a scam? If that's not a service you need, don't pay for it. And while I'm huge fans of Kris and Dean, well, they have thirty years worth of writing behind them. They have a huge following. Me? I have two, soon to be three, books out. I need to also listen to the newcomers that are making a significant living, and copy editors/beta readers/cover artists have been a huge benefit to their bottom line.

 

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[COSenior]

If Dean says editors are a scam, then that is what they are. The man has over a hundred novels and has been in the biz for thirty years. I, too, found them to be scamming left and right when I wrote six thriller novels last year. They would strip my narrative voice right out of my work andchange the story to THEIR story using THEIR critical voice. Every one of them (editors, not COPY editors--there is a difference). The truth hurts, but it needs to be said. Nothing against beta readers or copyeditors but charging $800? That's a scam.

Fake reviewers constantly hit up their targets with upsells when authors email them privately to ask why their review is so out in left field (i.e. I'll remove my bad review if you pay me to edit your book). This stuff is rampant at Amazon.

Dude, has anyone ever told you that you're really negative? In case you didn't know it, Joanna is an editor. I've edited. I don't know about her, but I resent your words and your tone. You obviously don't know this community--it's like a kid who walks in on a conversation and injects his sophomoric opinion without knowing what the adults were talking about. So let's see how you like it: Did you ever consider that instead of being scammers, your editors were trying to save a book that wasn't very good in the first place? No, of course you didn't.

 

[Held for Ransom]

You obviously don't know this community--it's like a kid who walks in on a conversation and injects his sophomoric opinion without knowing what the adults were talking about.

Ouch.

So let's see how you like it: Did you ever consider that instead of being scammers, your editors were trying to save a book that wasn't very good in the first place? No, of course you didn't.

Bueller? Bueller?

P.S. I am in the market for a good copy editor if anyone has some references, aside from Rainy's, of course. PM's are welcomed!

 

[Lauryn]

{steps over the irrelevant}

So yeah, I second Weston Kincade.

Rainy privately shared his information with me a few weeks ago. His edit of my work - the first portion he did for free - was amazing. It completely locked in the tone and tension I wanted in my story, but could not convey on my own.

By hiring him, I not only felt compelled and propelled to finish my story, but I have even more confidence in completing my novel.

Furthermore, he's very responsive and helpful. You'll get a sense of whether or not he's able to work with your project before he even gives you a full quote of the work.

As a magazine editor, content marketer and digital publisher, I HIGHLY recommend him. Thank you Rainy!

{hops back over the irrelevant and bids adieu to everyone}

 

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[Soothesayer]

{steps over the irrelevant}

It completely locked in the tone and tension I wanted in my story, but could not convey on my own.

He locked in HIS tone and tension in your story.

 

[Held for Ransom]

By hiring him, I not only felt compelled and propelled to finish my story, but I have even more confidence in completing my novel.

Thanks Lauryn!

 

[Rawr]

Just read that you can write off $600 per year as "general labor" for these sorts of services without needing to issue 1099s. I am actually feeling a bit better now about my proof reader that I realized I can write what she does off! May be I'll get that copyeditor too

 

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[COSenior]

Just read that you can write off $600 per year as "general labor" for these sorts of services without needing to issue 1099s. I am actually feeling a bit better now about my proof reader that I realized I can write what she does off! May be I'll get that copyeditor too

Rawr, check with a tax preparer on this, because I'm not one and can't claim expertise. But, if I'm not mistaken, you can write off whatever you spend as long as the people you do business with either have a business entity, or in the case of a sole proprietorship, invoice you so that you can demonstrate that they were acting as a business. You don't 1099 your accountant, right? So other people providing services as a business should be subject to the same rules. Now if you set up a business providing these services and hired a bunch of independent contractors to expand it, then you'd need to 1099 them.

Anyone have kids under eighteen but old enough to help in some way? You can pay them the same amount you'd pay a temp service to hire someone and write it off without a 1099. They'll have to pay taxes if it's more than $600 (the last I knew), but their tax bracket is likely lower than yours. Then make them buy their school clothes, etc. with it. Double write-off for your kids! Again, check this out, it's information I got years ago. Jeez, I just realized how many. Definitely check with an expert.

BTW, I also believe you can write-off any books you buy for research or educational purposes. I've never tried doing it with fiction, as I will this year, but I've written off self-development books and books related to my businesses for years.

 

[GiroudJD]

What's your editor charge?

 

[RHL]

I'm going to jump in here; hopefully it won't be taken amiss. I don't write books, but I do make a living off my writing. There have been many, may eBooks that I read the preview of and promptly decided to pass up because their spelling and punctuation was poor. Anybody who is educated notices this stuff, and it's like a splinter under your fingernail, reading something with bad editing causes constant irritation and anguish to the reader, they put it down and move on. I'm not the smartest guy ever, probably not even the smartest guy in the thread, but I went to school long enough to tell a comma splice, run-on, dangling modifier, and so on when I see it.

When I see a book full of these kinds of errors, or the same adjectives used repetitiously in one paragraph, What that subconsciously telegraphs to me is that the author doesn't have their act together. We barely have to pay for polished writing anymore thanks to pro bloggers and internet journalism, so we're certainly not going to pay for something that looks worse than what you can get for free on a blog put out by a traditional outlet. I can't speak for everyone, but I know a number of authors who would be $10, $15 or more richer from me alone if they had hired an editor.

Look at the NYT bestseller list. Every one of those books had some kind of external editor. Every. Single. One. Those are the guys making millions off this stuff. Isn't this like fastlane 101? If you want to make millions, look at people making millions.

 

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[COSenior]

Anybody who is educated notices this stuff, and it's like a splinter under your fingernail, reading something with bad editing causes constant irritation and anguish to the reader, they put it down and move on.

Wow, great analogy!

 

[Breaking Free]

Yep. Your work can take bad reviews about the story, etc., but not the editing. That may make people pass on.