3D Printing

[Mike39]

With 3D printing developing at such a rapid pace, I was just thinking about ideas for a way to use a 3D printer in a less than usual way. I had an idea the other night, have an online store selling printable vinyl records that you can print out on your 3-d printer, the idea sounds great but to do it legally would be a licensing nightmare, you would have to get every production companies permission for each song you put on the site. Also, is the need, there? While the entire world is not dying for this product, people still use vinyl records a lot, why not be able to print your own, would you or someone you know print a vinyl(ish) record on a 3D printer?

Just an idea that I had, want to hear your guys opinions on how to overcome the challenges in this market and mainly to see if any of you would buy something like this?

Lastly, if anyone has some in depth knowledge about audio files on a computer and/or 3D mapping, PM me! I want to look at designing some software for something involving 3d printers.

 

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[MNentre]

I see this market being a pretty lucrative one in the near future when it becomes more commercialized and prices come down. As far as what I've done, I bought a few domains that I am squatting on for the time being that I think will be more valuable (from a resell and business sense) when costs decrease and they make a more economical retail version of the printers.

 

[The-J]

I'd rather use a 3d printer to sell something actually useful. Kinda like this one business did by selling instruction guides on how to make replacement parts for popular products.

 

[Pat]

I looked into this a while ago. I think the industry needs a few more years, but there is a lot of potential waiting.

 

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[Twiki]

Mike, re: the original topic of this post (3D printing of vinyl records), I saw someone has done this recently --- who knows, it might even be you, since the original post was a while ago? Anyway, I am not sure if the thing I saw was just a "hipster" artistic proof-of-execution type thing, or an actual viable business.

I did want to reactivate this thread because of the general topic though. It's the kind of thing where timing is in question, right? Too early or too late? If the topic makes it to NPR like it has recently, I guess in one sense, maybe it's too late, at least for the real early birds? But in any case I think this whole area is a potential big deal, a really big deal. There are so many possible angles:

1) you know the endless debates "Should I learn how to code?", maybe will morph into "Should I learn how to do 3D design?". Many of the same factors would apply, except since it's relatively open field, just having a little 3D design knowledge would be much more valuable than just having a little HTML or Javascript knowledge, I bet. Probably much harder too, as it wouldn't merely be technical but also require aesthetic and engineering sensibility.

2) more Fastlane than just learning to do 3D design, I guess would be organizing and putting together teams of 3D designers, or building tools and infrastructure to support them, whether online or business model wise. I know there are some things already like this like Shapeways, but I imagine there still lots of room for development

3) possible problem with this field is that it seems to be "geeky" at this stage? Meaning there is a open-source ideology that resists commercialization... but maybe something like Red Hat did for the Linux area will emerge along those lines

4) that implies that just like there was huge BOOM in late 90's for startups like Red Hat with crazy valuations, almost all will wither and die, with a few unpredictable survivors like RHT. How to play this is intriguing. Leaders like DDD or SSYS? But maybe they'll end up like Packard Motor Company, remember them?

5) on the investor/speculator end of it, DDD has been doing very well but who knows if it's because of the periodic news reports that are increasing awareness among the general public (the Economist, NPR etc.) Maybe that is a warning sign. Once it makes BusinessWeek cover then maybe that'll be real the sign of doom.

6) some very successful people on this forum seem to have done very well because they have developed manufacturing connections and the know-how of working with Chinese manufacturers. I wonder how/when this will change, and how people plan to adapt, if the hope/hype of 3D printing really does bring manufacturing back to the local regions. If people just can print a custom cat litter box from their hometown 3D printer, that would seem to really alter the dynamics of the CENTS Fastlane model, esp. the "ENTRY" part.

7) if 3D printing really does alter the whole balance of factors related to manufacturing in China/East Asia vs. manufacturing downtown in your city, what does that mean for the whole ecosystem that has evolved around it (ex. Alibaba, import/export businesses, social order in world's most populous country)

8) I'd imagine that people who focus on licensing their product ideas would be affected as well, since prototyping new products is a key application of 3D printing. Still would require that type of skilled CAD designer though... implies that skill will become even more valuable (of course even more valuable as the business owner who has such designers working for them, rather than a freelance designer).

Anyway, I am also interested in hearing people's thoughts on this topic, especially those who could consider what effect such a fundamental change could have on their existing approach to manufacturing, importing, etc. For further reading, I found useful Dr. Alexander Elder's book "Additive Manufacturing" to be a good introduction from a trader/investor POV, and also a book called "How to Make $250 a Day with a 3D Printer" (I fergot author name) from a more hands-on POV. The Economist also had a special report on the topic, I believe earlier last year.

 

[Ikke]

I make and sell 3D printed parts. But the 3D printers you see around on the internet and even most commercial printers using the FDM printing method, won't be able to print the fine geometry you need for a vinyl. Possibly a SLS could do it, but it would be very costly in materials alone, let alone the printer.

And I don't think 3D printers will become the standard producing method anytime soon because it is relatively slow to make parts and 3D printed parts are usually weaker than parts made with conventional production methods.

 

[Eskil]

I make and sell 3D printed parts.

You should consider doing this service for people on the forum, at a special rate

If you don't mind, feel free to post some details. I am looking into getting a component 3d-printed for prototyping/testing purposes actually.

 

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[Twiki]

I make and sell 3D printed parts. But the 3D printers you see around on the internet and even most commercial printers using the FDM printing method, won't be able to print the fine geometry you need for a vinyl. Possibly a SLS could do it, but it would be very costly in materials alone, let alone the printer.

And I don't think 3D printers will become the standard producing method anytime soon because it is relatively slow to make parts and 3D printed parts are usually weaker than parts made with conventional production methods.

Thank you for your input, I was hoping someone like you with actual experience in the subject could shed some light like this. It is so tricky to figure out where this technology is on the adoption curve, although I understand it's actually been around for decades... difficult to tell whether the rising hype is too early (journalists just getting on the bandwagon to come up with interesting content), or an indicator of being too late, depending on angle I guess. I too would like to hear more from you about this subject, if it doesn't conflict with your existing job or business. It seems like Northern Europe is a big hotspot for this type of innovation.

 

[Ikke]

Well my knowledge is limited but fire away with what you'd like to know.

 

[Twiki]

Great, thanks. Of course feel free to not answer any questions that may conflict with your current work/business.

1. How did you get into 3D printing? Not interested in your personal bio, though you seem like a nice guy, but rather I am wondering if people who get into this field usually need to have previous CAD or engineering or industrial design background?

2. Prototyping seems to be a big application for this area. But from what I understand, 3D printing makes it possible to build physical objects that would otherwise be impossible to construct using normal methods? So, if that's the case, then is it a concern that the prototyping may be a proof-of-concept that turns out to not be feasible to mass produce using ordinary means?

3. Is this largely something that geeky artists and designers are playing around with as a novelty (not that there's anything wrong with that)? That seems to be much of what's on display out there, but maybe it's just distorted perception because of gee whiz factor. I guess the boring applications aren't put on display so much?

4. You're in the Netherlands. Do you own/ride a bicycle? Is 3D printing far enough along to at least economically print (for example) bicycle parts of sufficient strength? I imagine that using it to build jet airplane components isn't there yet.

5. There's a lot of talk about every home having a 3D printer in the future, but I cannot get my head around the question: "what problem would that solve?" From your perspective, would home 3D printers serve any purpose? It seems at the current time they'd be more suitable for the kind of products you find at a Dollar Store... using a home 3D printer to print out a cat bowl or a kitchen utensil of some sort, would seem excessive.

6. If I think about bicycle parts... then extend that to parts like auto parts and parts that you see filling up the shelves in Pep Boys, Home Depot, Lowes... I can imagine that an enormous portion of that shelf space will become unnecessary as all they'll need to do is have a big 3D printer in the back, and if a customer needs something they can order online or call, and pick it up after it's printed on demand. No more inventory, no more "out of stock" (except for waiting time while parts are printed). How long do you think it'd take for that to happen?

7. The materials used to print these objects, are they generally safe for humans to ingest or to have embedded into their bodies?

8. You're in the Netherlands so maybe you can't answer this, but in the US at least there are things like zoning laws that restrict usage of commercial space. Would setting up a small 3D printing operation in an office building cause noticable problems of "industrial" use (fumes, waste products, noise, etc.)?

9. Generally, who are your customers, what kind of market is there for the parts you design/sell?

10. How long would it take to become competent/proficient at 3D design? Is there a significant learning cost in terms of software and material?

You say that your knowledge is limited, but that kind of statement leads to me think you may be more of an expert than you admit. If you said you were a "thought leader" in the field, I'd figure something different. I bet if you created a ebook or other type of information product based on your experience ("How to Become a 3D Printing Designer" etc.), there'd be a lot of interest in it.

 

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[awesom-o]

Interesting news from Nokia today backing 3D printing

BBC News - Nokia backs 3D printing for mobile phone cases

Interesting new trend perhaps?

 

[BeachBoy]

I have read a good book about the subject, good to get started.

it's called "Makers" Makers: The New Industrial Revolution: Chris Anderson: 9780307720955: Amazon.com: Books

 

[Twiki]

Interesting news from Nokia today backing 3D printing

BBC News - Nokia backs 3D printing for mobile phone cases

Interesting new trend perhaps?

Thanks for that link, yeah that's the type of application that seems perfect match for this kind of stuff. This is really smart of Nokia to release this kind of developer's kit... they must have learned from Steve Ballmer the importance of enabling Developers Developers Developers Developers Developers Developers Developers Developers Developers Developers Developers Developers Developers Developers!!!!

Can you imagine how easy it's going to become to just create all sorts of crazy products, test their viral potential in the market, then ride whatever novelty interest there is, without worrying about inventory or shipping a container full of products from China that arrive after the novelty wears off, because it'll be print-on-demand from your garage:

 

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[mdturner]

I'm a mechanical engineer and have been doing a lot with 3D printing recently for a product I'm developing. I am actually looking to pick up a desktop sized one in the near future ~$2500. Although it's an awesome idea and tool. It's definitely not capable of producing sturdy parts. There's various kinds of plastics that can be used and each has their own pros and cons but none are super strong. The amazing thing about 3D printing is that engineers/design firms/etc. can design a part in a 3D modeling program (I use SolidWorks) and they can get a "rapid prototype" in a very short amount of time. This allows them to a. check if everything works and fits accordingly b. if they are going for something aesthetically pleasing then the 3D printer shows exactly what it will look like. Currently I'd say it's far more useful as a "double check" before you spend the money to get tooling or molds made. It's not much use for full scale production at the moment.

 

[mdturner]

To give Twiki some answers.

2. There's a lot to engineering a part. The 3D printer will print anything you could possibly come up with. I doubt it would be impossible to manufacture something printed though. However on a large scale, production of said part wouldn't be worth it because to create the molds intensive amounts of tooling would be necessary which drive costs through the roof depending on what ever weird thing is necessary to tool the mold. And if the mold is only able to produce 1000 pieces before it wears out and you need a new mold then it's just not worth the cost to produce the part.

3. You mostly see the novelty side because it's a "wow" factor. But it is definitely a full swing industry. Just google rapid prototyping places near you and I'm sure you'll find some. I had one done last week and I'm working for a guy who has had multiple done. My university has one there's a waiting line for to get pieces printed.

4. Besides novelty pieces, 3D printing isn't far enough along to produce a structural or sturdy part to withstand decent amounts of force. The plastic is very brittle.

5. Sure they talk about it, I doubt it will ever happen. Even if 3D printers are cheap, a minute amount of the population can use 3D modeling programs. And if they did ever get to every homes office, then I can't see them being used to make anything more than a cat bowl.

6. 3D printing is pretty slow, and the process just doesn't create durable enough parts yet for something like that.

7. The most popular seems to be ABS plastic, the other big ones are PLA and PVA. PVA is expensive compared to the other two and water soluble. Do some googling I don't know if any of these plastics are harmful or safe.

8. You can set one up anywhere. Safe and quite enough to print things in your kitchen.

10. I have spent countless hours on SolidWorks and am capable of building all kinds of things but I would just call myself average. I'd say this is all about how your brain works. There's a million ways to make a single part and you need to be a pretty engineering minded fellow to get proficient at it. The basics are easy though. You need a computer to run it, for a laptop I wouldn't use less than MacBook Pro with the baddest a$$ processor. Otherwise it's kind of glitchy and hard to use fluidly. Then the program costs vary, SolidWorks you need to buy a license and heres the link for pricing.

SolidWorks 3D CAD Design Software

I use Premium for all the goodies.

 

[Tommy92l]

Mineways

Check out those guys, the allow people to send in their maps that they have made in minecraft, and for a price, they select a portion of it and print it... how awesome is that!?

 

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[Ikke]

I replied in bold for easy reading

Great, thanks. Of course feel free to not answer any questions that may conflict with your current work/business.

Sorry for the late reply, I just saw all the many great replies to your questions in this thread.

1. How did you get into 3D printing? Not interested in your personal bio, though you seem like a nice guy, but rather I am wondering if people who get into this field usually need to have previous CAD or engineering or industrial design background?

I had drawn some models in CAD and i knew there was a 3D printer at school. One thing led to another.

2. Prototyping seems to be a big application for this area. But from what I understand, 3D printing makes it possible to build physical objects that would otherwise be impossible to construct using normal methods? So, if that's the case, then is it a concern that the prototyping may be a proof-of-concept that turns out to not be feasible to mass produce using ordinary means?

In some cases that is indeed true. Although you wouldn't be a very good designer if you design something without having the production method already determined. And thus knowing what is feasible and what isn't

3. Is this largely something that geeky artists and designers are playing around with as a novelty (not that there's anything wrong with that)? That seems to be much of what's on display out there, but maybe it's just distorted perception because of gee whiz factor. I guess the boring applications aren't put on display so much?

That is indeed what is happening in my perception. Also it is much more interesting to look at something that amazes you. And showing the most amazing things you can do with a 3D printer makes it more salable than seeing it make something you could make with a very simple tool.

4. You're in the Netherlands. Do you own/ride a bicycle? Is 3D printing far enough along to at least economically print (for example) bicycle parts of sufficient strength? I imagine that using it to build jet airplane components isn't there yet.

Yes I commute with my bicycle just like many other people. And yes I imagine it would be feasible to print bike parts, just as long as the part specifications are well withing the printed parts capability. Same goes for jet engines or any other application.

5. There's a lot of talk about every home having a 3D printer in the future, but I cannot get my head around the question: "what problem would that solve?" From your perspective, would home 3D printers serve any purpose? It seems at the current time they'd be more suitable for the kind of products you find at a Dollar Store... using a home 3D printer to print out a cat bowl or a kitchen utensil of some sort, would seem excessive.

I feel the same about the current times, unless you can design your own parts. Otherwise you would have to buy your designs online, which more or less defeats the purpose of having a machine that can make the most unique parts.
But perhaps in the future when printing gets much cheaper, it would be more cost efficient to print something locally than to get it transported to your locale store.

6. If I think about bicycle parts... then extend that to parts like auto parts and parts that you see filling up the shelves in Pep Boys, Home Depot, Lowes... I can imagine that an enormous portion of that shelf space will become unnecessary as all they'll need to do is have a big 3D printer in the back, and if a customer needs something they can order online or call, and pick it up after it's printed on demand. No more inventory, no more "out of stock" (except for waiting time while parts are printed). How long do you think it'd take for that to happen?

I personally don't see it happening overnight but perhaps when printing becomes much cheaper and the product doesn't require the finish or strength from a machined or injection molded product it might become reality. Also printing quality etc could become so good that it can compete head on with conventional production methods. But I don't see any of this happening in the coming years.

7. The materials used to print these objects, are they generally safe for humans to ingest or to have embedded into their bodies?

3D printing can be done with a wide variety of materials. If it is safe for humans depends of the materials used in production, don't forget binding material etc. And ofcourse the way it is produced. But I don't know much about this because I've never done anything food related.

8. You're in the Netherlands so maybe you can't answer this, but in the US at least there are things like zoning laws that restrict usage of commercial space. Would setting up a small 3D printing operation in an office building cause noticable problems of "industrial" use (fumes, waste products, noise, etc.)?

There are zoning laws here too. I have never smelled the printer, but than again it is in the same room with an injection molding machine and several CNC machines which do have an unique smell. But a 3D printer could be used in an office space just like and ordinary printer. The printers themselves wouldn't be the problem I imagine, but I don't know the specifics in the law about this. I don't print in an office space anyway.

9. Generally, who are your customers, what kind of market is there for the parts you design/sell?

I'm currently selling them in a niche market, the market is limited and the costumers live all over the world. There is a competitor building his own 3D printer. So competition is on it's way, but I have some doubt about his personal designing capabilities, but i'm sure he will improve as he goes along.
Also my main products are CNC machined although the 3D printed parts are taking up a bigger and bigger slice of the total revenue

10. How long would it take to become competent/proficient at 3D design? Is there a significant learning cost in terms of software and material?

it is hard for me to judge because I rolled into it. The hardest part would be to be creative in your designs. Other than that being able to draw in CAD is the hardest, which is quite easy anyway.
You could be on your way with freeware and a cheap printer, so for less than 500USD. Or you might want to have some decent software and a decent printer. Than you would be looking at around 5000USD. Or you can go even more expensive but I have never looked at that.

You say that your knowledge is limited, but that kind of statement leads to me think you may be more of an expert than you admit. If you said you were a "thought leader" in the field, I'd figure something different. I bet if you created a ebook or other type of information product based on your experience ("How to Become a 3D Printing Designer" etc.), there'd be a lot of interest in it.

My knowledge really is limited, I know more about CNC milling than I know about printing.

 

[Twiki]

Thanks for responding to my pestering questions! It gives me a better sense of where this technology is, better than media reports or promoters that are maybe too far ahead of the adoption curve and eager to hype. Also provides a feel for whether or not this is something worth self-teaching... given the learning curve and the background required to do well with it. Doing a little 2D image manipulation in Photoshop drives me up a wall, so trying to learn 3D design would probably break my brain. I guess I will focus more on approaching this developing story from the trading/investing angle, there seem to be good trading opptys whenever media reports this as the big new thing. Thanks again.

 

[FreeMan]

Doing a little 2D image manipulation in Photoshop drives me up a wall, so trying to learn 3D design would probably break my brain.

If you want to get a feel for 3D design, take a look at Google Sketchup (http://www.sketchup.com/intl/en/product/gsu.html).

I've haven't used it much but it seems quite intuitive. Not for production parts but a good intro to 3D.

 

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[Ikke]

Thanks for responding to my pestering questions! It gives me a better sense of where this technology is, better than media reports or promoters that are maybe too far ahead of the adoption curve and eager to hype. Also provides a feel for whether or not this is something worth self-teaching... given the learning curve and the background required to do well with it. Doing a little 2D image manipulation in Photoshop drives me up a wall, so trying to learn 3D design would probably break my brain. I guess I will focus more on approaching this developing story from the trading/investing angle, there seem to be good trading opptys whenever media reports this as the big new thing. Thanks again.

Photoshop drives me up the wall also. I have been thinking about what you said about writing an ebook. And i have been thinking about it, maybe I will write a short book about production methods and why to choose one or the other. or maybe I will write something in article shape. Not sure what I have to say about it yet though.

 

[Jake]

About 2 weeks ago I was looking at DDD (3d systems) while waiting for a pullback it rocketed higher. That is my experience with 3D printing :smx8:

 

[klh6686]

[video=vimeo;50181953]https://vimeo.com/50181953[/video]

I've seen the other style printers that print similar to an inkjet printer, but when i saw how this one works....

 

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[Twiki]

Liking because of that incredibly awesome GIF!!!

 

[BeachBoy]

If you want to get a feel for 3D design, take a look at Google Sketchup (Trimble SketchUp).

I've haven't used it much but it seems quite intuitive. Not for production parts but a good intro to 3D.

I've tried sketchup and had a hard time with it.

I've used Catia the most and also solidworks, and sketchup is just not made on the same frame so it's hard to switch I found.. maybe if you start from scratch it's easier.

 

[MikeRuss]

LOL, The ear phone case is awesome!

 

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[TK1]

I have read a good book about the subject, good to get started.

it's called "Makers" Makers: The New Industrial Revolution: Chris Anderson: 9780307720955: Amazon.com: Books

very, very good book, reading it right now!

3d printing update from today:

Pirate3D Buccaneer Hits $100K Goal In 10 Minutes | TechCrunch

these guys are on the way to hit it big, very interesting

 

[G-man422]

I was looking into 3d printer companies and found a Motley Fool article on them. I don't really follow MF but I thought it was relevant to this thread.

http://beta.fool.com/yanivcito/2013/05/10/3d-money-printing/33265/

 

[Rawr]

Where would you find a job that has one of these 3d printers around? Sounds like a great thing to learn just for the potential here.

 

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[Ikke]

Uhm, there are quite a few 3D printing companies about. And most universities have them. But why get a JOB to work with them? why not just buy one yourself and learn from that?

 

[KirbyRaymund]

you can buy one and sign up with one of those sites that create a network of people with 3D printers. then people who want to have something printed can sign up to those sites and order their prototype. the work will be given to the guy with a 3d printer that's nearest to the person who made the order.

you can earn from it.