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Ayn Rand and Capitalism

Anything related to matters of the mind

Ubermensch

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Ayn Rand, talking about Capitalism:

"The flood of misinformation, misrepresentation, distortion, and outright falsehood about capitalism is such that the young people of today have no idea (and virtually no way of discovering any idea) of its actual nature. While archeologists are rummaging through the ruins of millennia for scraps of pottery and bits of bones, from which to reconstruct some information about prehistorical existence—the events of less than a century ago are hidden under a mound more impenetrable than the geological debris of winds, floods, and earthquakes: a mound of silence."



“Introduction,”
Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, vii


Some talk about Ayn Rand lately, particularly her fiction.

Not much about her non-fiction.

A lot of people do not know that her fiction is only a 30-second movie trailer to what made Ayn Rand a world-class genius, and probably the most fascinating (at least American) woman ever.

Mom cried and sobbed at the world's initial reception of Atlas Shrugged.

If you ever wonder what Rand did to unleash her rage, don't wonder.

Just read her non-fiction.

No more stories.

No more bed time stories about philosophy.

She took off the masks.

She took off the masks of Howard Roark.

She said - okay, no more games - I'm going to give it to you the unedited and perfected fury of Aristotle, not spoken in the words of John Galt, but in the incredible genius who put the words in his mouth.

Atlas Shrugged was a warning.

A warning that America in Ayn Rand's day would turn into the America of today.

The John Galt's of today are the @GlobalWealth types, pointing to international living.

Galt's Gulch is outside of the USA, sad to say.

Anyway, enough ramble.

On to the super-freak genius non-fiction Ayn Rand:

Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned.

The recognition of individual rights entails the banishment of physical force from human relationships: basically, rights can be violated only by means of force. In a capitalist society, no man or group may initiate the use of physical force against others. The only function of the government, in such a society, is the task of protecting man’s rights, i.e., the task of protecting him from physical force; the government acts as the agent of man’s right of self-defense, and may use force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use; thus the government is the means of placing the retaliatory use of force under objective control. ~ Ayn Rand

Source: Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal

When I say “capitalism,” I mean a full, pure, uncontrolled, unregulated laissez-faire capitalism—with a separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church. ~ Ayn Rand

Source:
“The Objectivist Ethics,”
The Virtue of Selfishness, 33

"The moral justification of capitalism does not lie in the altruist claim that it represents the best way to achieve “the common good.” It is true that capitalism does—if that catch-phrase has any meaning—but this is merely a secondary consequence. The moral justification of capitalism lies in the fact that it is the only system consonant with man’s rational nature, that it protects man’s survival qua man, and that its ruling principle is: justice." Ayn Rand

Source:
“What Is Capitalism?”
Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 20

The action required to sustain human life is primarily intellectual: everything man needs has to be discovered by his mind and produced by his effort. Production is the application of reason to the problem of survival . . . .

Since knowledge, thinking, and rational action are properties of the individual, since the choice to exercise his rational faculty or not depends on the individual, man’s survival requires that those who think be free of the interference of those who don’t. Since men are neither omniscient nor infallible, they must be free to agree or disagree, to cooperate or to pursue their own independent course, each according to his own rational judgment. Freedom is the fundamental requirement of man’s mind. ~Ayn Rand

Source:

“What Is Capitalism?”
Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 17

"It is the basic, metaphysical fact of man’s nature—the connection between his survival and his use of reason—that capitalism recognizes and protects.

In a capitalist society, all human relationships are voluntary. Men are free to cooperate or not, to deal with one another or not, as their own individual judgments, convictions, and interests dictate. They can deal with one another only in terms of and by means of reason, i.e., by means of discussion, persuasion, and contractual agreement, by voluntary choice to mutual benefit. The right to agree with others is not a problem in any society; it is the right to disagree that is crucial. It is the institution of private property that protects and implements the right to disagree—and thus keeps the road open to man’s most valuable attribute (valuable personally, socially, and objectively): the creative mind."

SOURCE:
“What Is Capitalism?”
Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 19

"It is . . . by reference to philosophy that the character of a social system has to be defined and evaluated. Corresponding to the four branches of philosophy, the four keystones of capitalism are: metaphysically, the requirements of man’s nature and survival—epistemologically, reason—ethically, individual rights, politically, freedom."



“What Is Capitalism?”
Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 20

"Capitalism demands the best of every man—his rationality—and rewards him accordingly. It leaves every man free to choose the work he likes, to specialize in it, to trade his product for the products of others, and to go as far on the road of achievement as his ability and ambition will carry him. His success depends on the objective value of his work and on the rationality of those who recognize that value. When men are free to trade, with reason and reality as their only arbiter, when no man may use physical force to extort the consent of another, it is the best product and the best judgment that win in every field of human endeavor, and raise the standard of living—and of thought—ever higher for all those who take part in mankind’s productive activity." ~ Ayn Rand



“For the New Intellectual,”
For the New Intellectual, 25


The economic value of a man’s work is determined, on a free market, by a single principle: by the voluntary consent of those who are willing to trade him their work or products in return. This is the moral meaning of the law of supply and demand.




“What Is Capitalism?
Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 26
 
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BellaPippin

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Glad someone is talking about her just now! I have just started reading Atlas Shrugged and someone recommended me to read The Virtue of Selfishness (they told me by Nathan something or so but then I come to realize they are just a contributor and the author is Ayn Rand).

I want to study the essence of capitalism and understand why it gets so much hate (greedy people probably) when at its core I can't find anything else that makes so much sense for man. Being from Argentina --where things have usually been very leftist and the only decade we got some free market going everything turned out horribly, but I think it was for other reasons--the discussion down there seems so close minded and as soon as you say anything related to something that isn't "internal tourism" "internal industry" or so you get tagged as an "imperialist" like what the heck. Even the youth seems so inclined to think the government should take care of every single need we have because "we are the people". Sounds so entitled, I can't help it. I think I've seen the bad face of both but I feel there's so much to understand.

You know Churchill said, ""The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." So far that rings very true to me.
 

ilrein

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I actually have completely stopped discussing philosophy. The state of intellectual decay is brutal.

Whenever I attempt to explain the merits of Capitalism, I'm told that I'm brainwashed by 'Murika, and the way I define communism is not "the real communism, but Stalinism/Leninism". Then these same people express sentiments of exasperation..."I have to explain why socialism is the best socio-economic system AGAIN? In THIS day and age? Do you live under a rock?!?!/1111".

Unbelievable.

The beauty of Ayn Rand's thinking is the moral justification of rational self-interest.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just as man cannot survive by any random means, but must discover and practice the principles which his survival requires, so man’s self-interest cannot be determined by blind desires or random whims, but must be discovered and achieved by the guidance of rational principles. This is why the Objectivist ethics is a morality of rational self-interest—or of rational selfishness.

-- Virtue of Selfishness
 
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Ubermensch

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I actually have completely stopped discussing philosophy. The state of intellectual decay is brutal.

Lol.

You'll like this quote:

"The best argument against democracy is a 5-minute conversation with the average voter." ~ Winston Churchill

A conversation about politics - and the deeper roots of one's political decisions (philosophical roots) - is an exercise in frustration, mostly because people don't really think rationally about their political choices. They choose what their parents brainwashed them to believe. It's really kind of hilarious, because you get exactly the type of politicians Americans have today.




Whenever I attempt to explain the merits of Capitalism, I'm told that I'm brainwashed by 'Murika, and the way I define communism is not "the real communism, but Stalinism/Leninism". Then these same people express sentiments of exasperation..."I have to explain why socialism is the best socio-economic system AGAIN? In THIS day and age? Do you live under a rock?!?!/1111".

Yea, I know. I get it.

You can usually trip most people up in a debate about Capitalism and whatever other alternative by first properly defining the terms.

Capitalism: The fair one that does not arbitrarily create monopolies, or... the alternative.

It's really that simple. Capitalism is actually a perfect system. The imperfections of other systems are blamed on capitalism.

The people who play the blame capitalism game play the game better than capitalism.

Capitalism just does what capitalism does best.

Capitalism, in its rawest, most unchecked, unleashed, unlegislated, wild, free, Laissez-faire and animalistic form just wins.

Capitalism produces results.

Capitalism - old school capitalism - the capitalism built on the simple concept of trade, exchange, and mutual self-interest, buyers and sellers uniting and doing a happy and profitable transaction...

Capitalism wins.

Entrepreneurs know this.

We fuel the economy.

We pay the taxes.

We create the jobs.

While the politicians play with the numbers.

Everyone else debates about it and gets it wrong.

Just another lesson in how practical application beats blabbety blabbety talk.
 
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ilrein

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@Ubermensch

My FIRST approach (when I cared; which is no longer the case) was to define terms. I'd straight up start with a 'fckin dictionary:

an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

I then would explain, without retaining ownership of your property (your intellectual IP, your work, your brain) -- you have no right to its benefits. Which means, a political party could take away everything you've ever worked for on a whim.

This is when I'd receive a response that I'm not properly defining communism, that this level of arbitrary state power is not "true communism". That there is a difference between Marxism and Stalinism.

That in Marxism, it wouldn't be a state that takes from you (cuz Lenin is bad!! mkay), there would be democratically citizen appointed councils that determine everything you own and deserve. And since we're all great human beings and altruism is the only moral way to live, this pure form of Marxism that my puny brain can't understand, that all of humanity fails to grasp -- cuz we're all seduced by the proganda of 'Murika -- is the most beautiful socio-economic system that has never been realized.

If only we were smart enough to realize how truly perfect Marxism is. Then all reality would be a Utopia. Alas, I'm too selfish and greedy. If only I could be a better person who realizes that all humans are an extension of my mind and body. That existence is just a fleeting glimmer of some multi-soul meta-reality, and that I'm too zoned into this "subjective illusion" of reality.

Dear god, the scariest part? I actually used to think like this too.

SHUDDERS
 

ChrisJTurner

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Ayn Rand made my eyeballs bleed.
She painted capitalists as some kind of super hero and if you had a slight opposing view, you didn't deserve to be alive.

Capitalism works but its not perfect.
Sure you could debate that the consequences of such on other systems; but I guess there is no holy-grail proof of the root causes.
Though, I believe that Capitalism lies deep within that.
 

ilrein

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@ChrisJTurner

My gut feeling to your response is that you have not consumed enough information to make an accurate assessment. You sound like you were turned off by the intensity of the language. But the importance of the message merits it.

When you say "Capitalism works but its not perfect."

What is the argument here? Works how? Why isn't it perfect?

Are we using the same definition of Capitalism? (Hint: we aren't)
 
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Delmania

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Are we using the same definition of Capitalism? (Hint: we aren't)

You're making the same argument in support of capitalism that people who support communism make. "The pure form of X" works. Capitalism the best foundation for an economic system because it uses greed and ambition, but it's not perfect. People have taken advantage of it and harmed or killed people, just like they have every other system.
 

ChrisJTurner

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Of course I haven't consumed enough information to make an accurate assessment, which is why I said I "believe".
You are obviously coming from a place of "knowing", to which I can tell you my friend, you cant know everything.

@ChrisJTurner

You sound like you were turned off by the intensity of the language.

I dont know whether you are trying to insult me or just being a dick, I would guess both.
 

ilrein

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Of course I haven't consumed enough information to make an accurate assessment, which is why I said I "believe".
You are obviously coming from a place of "knowing", to which I can tell you my friend, you cant know everything.



I dont know whether you are trying to insult me or just being a dick, I would guess both.

You said "She painted capitalists as some kind of super hero and if you had a slight opposing view, you didn't deserve to be alive."

You are commenting on the her tone, the style of her language (which I described as 'intense'). I am empathetically telling you, because of you may dislike her tone, you might discount the entire message.

So, I was neither trying to insult you, nor trying to be a dick. I am merely probing your statement to engage in meaningful dialogue.

You seem to suffer from making really early judgment calls though...
 
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ilrein

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@Delmania

You're extremely observant to make this comparison. There is a reason that I am confident in assessing Communism when I am repudiated with "you're not talking about the PURE form of it". I can get into this later.

I will offer the argument here, for all.

There is no such thing as "pure Capitalism". There is only Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism.

A welfare state is synonymous with a socialist system. Currently, there is no country in the world that embraces Capitalism. There are countries that do their best to embrace Communism, but even they find that they must work with rudimentary free markets in order to be globally competitive (example: China).

Have you heard of a historic event known as Lenin's New Economic Policy?

His vision of a Marxist utopia was disappearing before his eyes because of the fundamental problems that occur when you try to implement Communism. Once again, rudimentary free markets were a necessity just to survive. Isn't it funny? To rely on the principles they despised with a glowing hatred in order to keep their mirage of Utopia going.

Now, take a deep breath. Let's forget about the world for a second. Forget about Russia and America.

Just consider the concept of ownership. When you invent something, when you creatively design something, when your mind has conceived and delivered something unique and innovative -- that's a very special moment. It's a very personal accomplishment. It was born in your mind, and through your body and will, you made this thing a reality.

How beautiful is that?

Except, you have a problem. You just realized that you live in a society of people. You are not alone. So, the question of ownership comes into play.

What if someone really likes what you made? What if they want what you made? Would it be fair to just hand it to them -- because they WANT it -- considering the years of effort you put into it? That doesn't seem like a fair trade, right?

The only real difference between Capitalism and Communism is the question of property.

Communism declares that you do not own this invention. It belongs to the state, the people -- everybody but you. The state has the right to tell you to forfeit your invention. To not comply is death or imprisonment.

Capitalism declares that you own this invention. It belongs to you, no one else. If this is a thing of value, you have the opportunity to protect it (intellectual IP) and to sell on the free market, where supply-demand determines the price.

That's it. That's the only difference between the two systems. Ownership of property. There is NO distinction otherwise.
 
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ChrisJTurner

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You said "She painted capitalists as some kind of super hero and if you had a slight opposing view, you didn't deserve to be alive."

You are commenting on the her tone, the style of her language (which I described as 'intense'). I am empathetically telling you, because of you may dislike her tone, you might discount the entire message.

So, I was neither trying to insult you, nor trying to be a dick. I am merely probing your statement to engage in meaningful dialogue.

You seem to suffer from making really early judgment calls though...

I found her perspectives to be narcissistic and simplistic, which probably appealed to the immature and naive types

Admittedly, my level of intellect is not as high as yours, so perhaps my level of understanding is slightly different.
I didn't have a formal education.
However, what I do understand is real life and in my time, I have come across a few of "randian" types and found them to be shallow, condescending jerks; just like rand.
You are proving to be of that type which is why made an early judgement call.... sure enough, I was right.

 

ilrein

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@ChrisJTurner

This is why I dislike speaking about philosophy.

Where exactly did I hurt your feelings? Saying you might not have the whole picture? And then offering to expand on those points and discuss them?

Shrug. Another one.
 
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ChrisJTurner

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@ChrisJTurner

This is why I dislike speaking about philosophy.

Where exactly did I hurt your feelings? Saying you might not have the whole picture? And then offering to expand on those points and discuss them?

Shrug. Another one.

You didnt hurt my feelings but if you want to know what rattled my cage

"You sound like you were turned off by the intensity of the language "

Right, now please go tell someone else about the bullshit you are blessed with.

Im out.
 

redsfaithful

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A warning that America in Ayn Rand's day would turn into the America of today.

The John Galt's of today are the @GlobalWealth types, pointing to international living.

Galt's Gulch is outside of the USA, sad to say.

America today is awesome. I live in a beautiful city with excellent schools and an educated, engaged citizenry. My tax rate is extremely reasonable and I'm getting rich in this country. Because I'm getting wealthy, I have a very hard time understanding people who criticize the system. It certainly works for me.

Anyone who moves out of America because they dislike taxes are scum of the earth types. Says absolutely everything someone needs to know about a man's character.

I don't think I've met an objectivist yet that doesn't whine endlessly about the sorry state of the world. And all of you think you're special snowflakes.

Ayn Rand in particular was a miserable human being, and probably had something cognitively wrong with her. Read about her relations with people. Borderline personality disorder, Asperger's, definitely something abnormal going on because someone socialized normally doesn't treat people the way she did. The more you read about the way the woman lived, the more you feel revulsion.

There's a reason academic philosophers don't take objectivism seriously.

I think people who have trouble relating to others are susceptible to becoming Randroids because it makes them feel better about their shortcomings.

I've said it before, politics will ruin this board, it's boring, and it doesn't help anyone build their business or advance in life. Why it's allowed I have no idea.
 

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Thanks for the post @Ubermensch. I've wanted to read up on some other Rand books, especially her non-fiction. Ever since I read Atlas Shrugged I have been absolutely obsessed with Rand and Objectivism.
 
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There is a significant problem with objectivism that consistently fails to be addressed when people talk about this purist capitalist utopia.

Capitalism boils EVERYTHING down to economics. Its purpose is maximizing production and maximizing profits. As the world modernizes and makes more and more human beings obsolete with improved automation technology, simple supply/demand drives down the cost of those workers' labor. There comes a point where these people's labor is relatively worthless in comparison to the cost of keeping them alive. Capitalism is a machine, and this is the point where you stop supplying the labor.

Those of us who are not sociopaths find this particular point to be ethically unacceptable, and the benefit of maximized production and profits is not the most desirable end.

At the end of the day, production and profit is for a specific purpose. Anyone who pursues the two for their own sake is like a cancerous cell in a body. Destroying the larger organism that keeps it alive for the sake of unchecked production.

Ayn Rand was no genius. Just a simple economist who knew half of the basics and didn't think about the entire purpose of her discipline, to SUSTAIN the society, not to kill it.
 

OldFaithful

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Wow, what a mess...but this is the internet!

To give you some background, I've read several of Rand's works, both fiction & non-fiction. ("We the living" is an interesting story of traditional/historical socialism.) I've found them quite challenging, and it's led me to read other authors of equally provocative works. I'd encourage everyone to read beyond your comfort zone.

Honestly, it's a surprise to me that folks in a business/startup forum are debating socialism & capitalism. As a business owner, I have a very strong preference for 1 of the aforementioned systems...
 

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lowtek

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@ilrein is right. Discussing capitalism with people who don't even understand the fundamentals of the concept is an exercise in futility.

some of the posts in this thread are proof of that. Good grief.
 

daivey

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You didnt hurt my feelings but if you want to know what rattled my cage

"You sound like you were turned off by the intensity of the language "

Right, now please go tell someone else about the bullshit you are blessed with.

Im out.

ChrisJ owned you all.
 

axiom

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America today is awesome. I live in a beautiful city with excellent schools and an educated, engaged citizenry. My tax rate is extremely reasonable and I'm getting rich in this country. Because I'm getting wealthy, I have a very hard time understanding people who criticize the system. It certainly works for me.

Anyone who moves out of America because they dislike taxes are scum of the earth types. Says absolutely everything someone needs to know about a man's character.

I don't think I've met an objectivist yet that doesn't whine endlessly about the sorry state of the world. And all of you think you're special snowflakes.

Ayn Rand in particular was a miserable human being, and probably had something cognitively wrong with her. Read about her relations with people. Borderline personality disorder, Asperger's, definitely something abnormal going on because someone socialized normally doesn't treat people the way she did. The more you read about the way the woman lived, the more you feel revulsion.

There's a reason academic philosophers don't take objectivism seriously.

I think people who have trouble relating to others are susceptible to becoming Randroids because it makes them feel better about their shortcomings.

I've said it before, politics will ruin this board, it's boring, and it doesn't help anyone build their business or advance in life. Why it's allowed I have no idea.
I strongly disagree.

I would have no problem paying my share of taxes if those tax dollars were used in an EFFICIENT way.

They are not, though. This is simply the reality. Our government is a big, bumbling oaf of a machine with agencies being created every year to manage the agencies that have grown too big for their own good. Look at all of the defense agencies.

Another pointed and quite hilarious example of the misuse of hard-earned tax dollars is the possibility of Tom Brady's "Deflate-Gate" case going to the supreme court. AM I REALLY PAYING FOR THAT BULLSH*T?

That sh*t happens every damn day. Don't give me that crap about people not wanting to pay taxes being "scum-of-the-Earth". Give me a government who uses taxes in an efficient manner, and I will be much more receptive to handing out the money I earned.

Until that point, I'm going to take any LEGAL measures I can to give away as little money as possible -- as this money may as well just vanish into thin air.

Wow, what a mess...but this is the internet!

To give you some background, I've read several of Rand's works, both fiction & non-fiction. ("We the living" is an interesting story of traditional/historical socialism.) I've found them quite challenging, and it's led me to read other authors of equally provocative works. I'd encourage everyone to read beyond your comfort zone.

Honestly, it's a surprise to me that folks in a business/startup forum are debating socialism & capitalism. As a business owner, I have a very strong preference for 1 of the aforementioned systems...
Right?

You want "monetary freedom"? Good luck with that in a socialist society.

You want to work your own hours anywhere in the world? Good luck with that in a socialist society.

Entrepreneurism is capitalism in its purest form.
 
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illmasterj

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Give me a government who uses taxes in an efficient manner, and I will be much more receptive to handing out the money I earned.

Andorra. Maximum 10%. In reality, more like 2%.
 

Ubermensch

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@ilrein and @OldFaithful seem to be the only ones in this thread that have at least a good foundational understanding of the subject matter (Ayn Rand, capitalism, etc). I'm not agreeing with or disagreeing with some of their more nuanced points. It's just very clear that they're the only ones that actually can at least grasp WTF Ayn Rand was saying.

Just sayin'.
 

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Tax money doesn't just disappear it is recirculated. It keeps money flowing. Hopefully into my pocket.
 
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Ubermensch

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@ilrein is right. Discussing capitalism with people who don't even understand the fundamentals of the concept is an exercise in futility.

some of the posts in this thread are proof of that. Good grief.

Exactly my point.

@ilrein is on another level. It would take at least a week of somewhat serious study for some of his "opponents" in this thread to catch up to him. His mistake (and he knows this now), is casting pearls before swine. Don't get surprised when intellectual hogs - minds that swallow any kind mangled excuse of a world view - vomit nonsense wreaking of vague axioms, built upon with faulty logic, false assumptions, illogical deductions, and factually unsupportable conclusions (that is, if "conclusions" built upon such a mess of mental sloppiness can even be called "conclusions").

Usain Bolt doesn't compete in the Special Olympics, so why would you debate retards?

@OldFaithful hinted at lack of surprise at some of the ideas expressed in here, considering that this is an entrepreneurs thread.

Yes, it is an entrepreneur's thread. That is, an entrepreneur owns this forum, and created a place for real entrepreneurs and entrepreneur-minded individuals converse together.

However, most people one this site - at least in the public version - make a lot of noise, and aren't actually grinding, aren't really hustling, aren't really making money.

And yet they have such strong opinions about what to do with YOUR money!


Lol. Hilarious.

So, yes. An entrepreneur's thread - built by an entrepreneur (like most things in this world!) - is used by some consumers, and since most of these consumers aren't hustlers (and are kind of antithetical to the fundamental concepts upon which this very place is founded...), they necessarily express the sort of anti-hustling opinions that real hustlers would find repugnant, disgusting, ridiculous, and fundamentally contradictory to their souls (and it is these souls that Ayn Rand wrote to... she didn't give a F*ck about the rest).
 
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