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HOT TOPIC Agree? You can't build a top tier physical product without Money

MoreValue

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What I have noticed about the best physical products, is simple. It is mainly just a money pump. Physical products quality is solely limited, by how much money a person has. My unpopular opinion.

Example: I am building a watch brand. I want to build the best offering for customers.

The crystal of a watch can be made of different materials. I will just go over two materials to demonstrate the point. Mineral and Sapphire. Just a basic search, and sapphire is clearly superior. With that in mind, sapphire is more expensive.

When there is a bad product on the market, it is just because the entrepreneur didn't have enough money to build a solid offering. I can have the intention to develop the best product, but the follow through is by having capital. I am just speaking about the product building step. No way around it. Normally, these products have to be built in house as well.

This is probably why you see businesses that max out of product development, but then have no cash to do marketing. Or the other type of business where they max marketing and have a poor product. Most people don't have money to max both. If you do max both, you are most likely a powerhouse/monopoly in your industry.
 

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PizzaOnTheRoof

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Three words: Steady incremental growth

Take your watch brand for example.

I don’t have thousands to pump into product development and design, so what do I do?

I start small.

Instead of selling complete watches, I’ll only sell watch straps, but they’ll be the best damn watch straps ever seen.

A year later I have a steady stream of sales and brand recognition to develop and launch my first complete watch.

Everything takes money. You just have to get creative.
 
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MoreValue

MoreValue

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Three words: Steady incremental growth

Take your watch brand for example.

I don’t have thousands to pump into product development and design, so what do I do?

I start small.

Instead of selling complete watches, I’ll only sell watch straps, but they’ll be the best damn watch straps ever seen.

A year later I have a steady stream of sales and brand recognition to develop and launch my first complete watch.

Everything takes money. You just have to get creative.
Thanks for input. I realized to really have control over product development, it needs to be in house. Because if you pay a 3rd party for each iteration (trial and error) paying a substantial markup. But with the in house, equipment and tooling is not cheap either...Higher quality materials usually require expensive equipment to work with. For example, English bridle leather needs the best tools. You can't take shortcuts with this. Even developing a product as small as a watch band can be expensive. think Hermes. But I guess they are a little over engineered kekeke

The real question: Is there a need for another watch brand?
If there is a need, getting money for quality production is no problem.
To keep it practical, get the sales before you go into production...Kickstarter style or sell limited edition on social media to fans of the brand.
Probably, not. It is just for example sake. I'm not doing any ecom at the moment. What people don't realize, is that to getting to prototype stage depending what it is can actually cost a substantial amount as well.
 

Saavik

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There are really very few businesses that can be started without any kind of startup capital, although people like to say that service businesses can (they can't). There is only a difference in degree, and a difference in the sources of capital:
If it requires little capital, you may be able to fund it out of the savings from your (current or previous) day job.
If it requires huge capital and you want it to grow fast, you'll need investors.
If you have the time to bootstrap, you can start small and fund the development out of the income from your running business.
 

Ronak

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I've always been surprised at the low actual cost of using superior material/more labor. There have been many occasions where suppliers have said to me, "Oh, but that will cost a lot", but actually ends up being pennies in the grand scheme of things. I find you can charge a premium much higher than your cost if you offer a quality product. Too many products made by large companies are run by bean counters who only care about shaving 2 cents off production cost-- use that to your advantage.

Now with crowdfunding platforms and niche forums, you can kill two birds with one stone and get marketing exposure as well as cash from preorders without committing too much cash upfront.
 
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Longinus

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Or your product selection is just terrible because you want to sell something cool and shiny. But the truth is, nobody is waiting for another high-end watch brand, sorry. You might be wasting a lot of $.

There's so much choice and space to improve uncool and cheaper products. Last year I launched a new "invention" on Amazon. Cost me 35 cents more to manufacture than the original product (which cost me $4.30) and I sell it with better margins. A Chinese seller is even copycatting my idea now and selling at 50% of my price, but I'm still dominating.
 
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MoreValue

MoreValue

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I've always been surprised at the low actual cost of using superior material/more labor. There have been many occasions where suppliers have said to me, "Oh, but that will cost a lot", but actually ends up being pennies in the grand scheme of things. I find you can charge a premium much higher than your cost if you offer a quality product. Too many products made by large companies are run by bean counters who only care about shaving 2 cents off production cost-- use that to your advantage.

Now with crowdfunding platforms and niche forums, you can kill two birds with one stone and get marketing exposure as well as cash from preorders without committing to much cash upfront.
Really? Please show me examples then of something that has low product development and unit cost and is actually a top tier product in terms of quality.

Disagree.

The entire post reads like an excuse.
Ok..., Name some products/brands that has low cost and has top tier quality. Highly doubt you will find it. No excuses at all. Give me examples and prove me wrong.

Or your product selection is just terrible because you want to sell something cool and shiny. But the truth is, nobody is waiting for another high-end watch brand, sorry. You might be wasting a lot of $.

There's so much choice and space to improve uncool and cheaper products. Last year I launched a new "invention" on Amazon. Cost me 35 cents more to manufacture than the original product (which cost me $4.30) and I sell it with better margins. A Chinese seller is even copycatting my idea now and selling at 50% of my price, but I'm still dominating.
I said above, the watch brand was just an example...Original product is your development or competitor’s retail price? I don’t like pluggin other brands. But I will give example. Look up Knipex, top of the line pliers. Also, check out Berkey Water Filters. Tell me these products don’t cost an arm and a leg to develop. This is the tier at what I am talking about. How does regular income pleb do this without sacrifice his entire life.
 

MTEE1985

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Something that doesn’t cost a lot of money? An Insider membership where multiple people have progress threads about raising outside money to scale their business or additional R&D.

Of course most great products take substantial capital to develop, what people are disagreeing with is your limiting belief that if you don’t have the cash in the bank then you are out of luck. It’s the “takes money to make money” line that is 100% false.
 

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Longinus

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I said above, the watch brand was just an example...Original product is your development or competitor’s retail price? I don’t like pluggin other brands. But I will give example. Look up Knipex, top of the line pliers. Also, check out Berkey Water Filters. Tell me these products don’t cost an arm and a leg to develop. This is the tier at what I am talking about. How does regular income pleb do this without sacrifice his entire life.
All your examples need a lot of development and production costs. My example doesn't, that was my point. But you don't want to understand and just want to crawl in your victimized mindset.

Just like you did here:
Agree or Disagree: Entrepreneurship is a privilege

Perhaps entrepreneurship just isn't for you.

Good luck.
 

Kak

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Ok..., Name some products/brands that has low cost and has top tier quality. Highly doubt you will find it. No excuses at all. Give me examples and prove me wrong.
I don't owe you an explanation. You are wrong in several ways.

First of all you don't need to self finance every business you start. That notion alone is ridiculous.

Second of all, it does not need to be top tier quality to be a thriving business with happy customers.

Which company would you rather own Rolls Royce or Kia? Citizen or Patek Philippe? Walmart or Bergdorf Goodman? Amazon or James Edition?

This entire argument is nonsensical. I launched a VERY high quality hand crafted product on Amazon about 5 years ago. I did very well for a while. Then the Chinese items entered the market full force. It was impossible to compete with this high of quality. My costs were a little higher, but my item was way better. In photographs that is hard to differentiate. To the customers, you could get "more value" for less money with a competing product. Set them side by side and you would never buy the Chinese one.

The consumers are ABSOLUTELY moving to the lowest cost, shit quality end of the spectrum. Look up any item on amazon. The number #1 result will be within 10% of the lowest price for that item. The first second and third best selling wrist watch on amazon are under $15. They are ALL rated 4 stars or better. You need to go 7 items back to even get to $30. There isn't a watch on the first over $100... Tell me again why TOP QUALITY is the paramount ingredient to a successful business?
 
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RazorCut

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This entire argument is nonsensical. I launched a VERY high quality hand crafted product on Amazon about 5 years ago. I did very well for a while. Then the Chinese items entered the market full force. It was impossible to compete with this high of quality. My costs were a little higher, but my item was way better. In photographs that is hard to differentiate. To the customers, you could get "more value" for less money with a competing product. Set them side by side and you would never buy the Chinese one.

The consumers are ABSOLUTELY moving to the lowest cost, sh*t quality end of the spectrum. Look up any item on amazon. The number #1 result will be within 10% of the lowest price for that item. The first second and third best selling wrist watch on amazon are under $15. They are ALL rated 4 stars or better. You need to go 7 items back to even get to $30. There isn't a watch on the first page under $100... Tell me again why TOP QUALITY is the paramount ingredient to a successful business?
Oh hell this is so on the money. And why I came out of the Amazon seller space. Yes there are people who are willing to pay for quality but we are drowned out by the masses who want cheap at pretty much any cost, especially as their dollar is worth less and less as time goes by.

Rep+++
 

klix

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Really? Please show me examples then of something that has low product development and unit cost and is actually a top tier product in terms of quality.
Look at OXO brand of products. They've become a premium brand charging 3-10x more than others simply by replacing plastic with silicon and stainless steel with chrome enamled stainless steel. And a paying a designer like $10 more an hour to get someone who has some design sense.
 
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MoreValue

MoreValue

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All your examples need a lot of development and production costs. My example doesn't, that was my point. But you don't want to understand and just want to crawl in your victimized mindset.

Just like you did here:
Agree or Disagree: Entrepreneurship is a privilege

Perhaps entrepreneurship just isn't for you.

Good luck.
Well, ok hard to make sense of what you are saying because I don’t know the actual product. Entrepreneurship is for me, I’m just tired of this whole “if I have a positive mentality” aka delusional mentality money just appears. I was a delusional entrepreneur for years, but woke up months ago and kicking myself has dumb it was that I had just mentality would make it work. Positive mentality and “working hard” doesn’t do it. It is the hard reality of economies which I found out. My products in the past had to be canceled because I just ran out of cash. Literally paycheck to paycheck for the business. People only invest in large economies of scale products.

I don't owe you an explanation. You are wrong in several ways.

First of all you don't need to self finance every business you start. That notion alone is ridiculous.

Second of all, it does not need to be top tier quality to be a thriving business with happy customers.

Which company would you rather own Rolls Royce or Kia? Citizen or Patek Philippe? Walmart or Bergdorf Goodman? Amazon or James Edition?

This entire argument is nonsensical. I launched a VERY high quality hand crafted product on Amazon about 5 years ago. I did very well for a while. Then the Chinese items entered the market full force. It was impossible to compete with this high of quality. My costs were a little higher, but my item was way better. In photographs that is hard to differentiate. To the customers, you could get "more value" for less money with a competing product. Set them side by side and you would never buy the Chinese one.

The consumers are ABSOLUTELY moving to the lowest cost, sh*t quality end of the spectrum. Look up any item on amazon. The number #1 result will be within 10% of the lowest price for that item. The first second and third best selling wrist watch on amazon are under $15. They are ALL rated 4 stars or better. You need to go 7 items back to even get to $30. There isn't a watch on the first page under $100... Tell me again why TOP QUALITY is the paramount ingredient to a successful business?
Isn’t this a forum where we discuss? How can I take you seriously the with all these statements without explanation? It wouldn’t make sense if I just made my statement without explanation. I don’t understand the, “I’m too good to give you an explanation” mentality. But you ended up explaining and thanks for that.


Oh hell this is so on the money. And why I came out of the Amazon seller space. Yes there are people who are willing to pay for quality but we are drowned out by the masses who want cheap at pretty much any cost, especially as their dollar is worth less and less as time goes by.

Rep+++
I don’t see it as being drowned out. But as standing out above the sea of cheaper products. I will give another example, Cuisinart Toaster Oven beats all of them, check it out. They stand above it all and probably have significantly less customer complaints due to quality. I am sure their product is that way due to it being a “money pump”

Look at OXO brand of products. They've become a premium brand charging 3-10x more than others simply by replacing plastic with silicon and stainless steel with chrome enamled stainless steel. And a paying a designer like $10 more an hour to get someone who has some design sense.
Oh yeah, I have heard of OXO. They do charge more. Your example of paying someone $10 more an hour is actually significant in terms of costs what these people are charging since they normally sell lower cost items. But I guess it is a one time cost. But as you can see in order to provide more value their costs are just higher.

Everyone puts value into products through two raw resources, either time or money, that gets converted into the value suited for their audience. But in physical product space, can’t use that time resource and just “hustle” your way to better product. Physical is just having hard money.
 

Joey El

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...[T]he hard reality of economies which I found out.
Yeah thats Fastlane reality...
But.... some people have less time for detailed posts than others. If you look around a bit, the member you're trying to discuss with could be a massive asset in your corner & has even offered a service for this.
Good luck.
 

klix

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I suggest you follow your username and provide More Value to the users of this forum.

You don't even have a product in mind you're trying to make. You're throwing out complaints about making watches, then toasters. This thread isn't providing any valuable discussion as far as I can tell.

[HASHTAG]#Landfill[/HASHTAG]
 

Kak

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Isn’t this a forum where we discuss? How can I take you seriously the with all these statements without explanation? It wouldn’t make sense if I just made my statement without explanation. I don’t understand the, “I’m too good to give you an explanation” mentality. But you ended up explaining and thanks for that.
I was referring to your entitled and contemptuous demand for answers.
 

Get Right

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Entrepreneurship is for me............My products in the past had to be canceled because I just ran out of cash. Literally paycheck to paycheck for the business. People only invest in large economies of scale products.
These are not things entrepreneurs say.

If the problem is running out of cash, entrepreneurs find money.
If the problem is the paycheck, entrepreneurs change it.
If the problem is other people, entrepreneurs look at themselves as possibly wrong and fix their mindset.

Entrepreneurs are problem solvers. That's what we do and how we get paid.
 

Rabby

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You said there are only two factors going into a product, time and money. This is false, and a belief that will hold you back severely. There is also expertise, operational efficiency, and capital other than money. At the very least. Those can make you competitive.

What do you know about materials or design or motion that every amatuer watch afficianado doesn’t know? What special equipment or process have you developed, or at least sketched out?

You’re getting quotes from manufacturers to make ‘your’ product. You expect them to bring all of the equipment, motion design, watch expertise, material sourcing, and time, right? Perhaps even CAD? In that case, they expect you to bring the money, yes, because they are doing everything else. So like @Kak and others mentioned, learn enough about finance to make that work. Or learn about materials, motion, process, design, or something else of value that you can bring.

Now, hopefully that makes sense. You also implied that someone has caused you to have delusions that money would “just appear” if you were positive. On the one hand, I want to say that you don’t sound very positive in your approach — you’re ruling out possible futures by defining them as impossible. But that’s not really the thing. The thing is that you’re stuck on money. I think you may have a money hangup. I’m not trying to sound insulting, so read this as one person being frank with another, that’s all.

Money is not a solution. It is a proxy for other things, a placeholder for useful stuff. If you think more money will fix your business ventures, you’re probably fooling yourself. It’s true that costs usually scale down with volume, but problems also scale up. If you can’t get the business off the ground at a small scale, it’s likely to go worse starting with more.

It isn’t the money that’s the problem, it’s the things. Equipment, expertise, materials, sourcing, negotiation, design, operations — somewhere in there you can find problems. For you, I would recommend rethinking your business ideas in terms of how you can run them, real businesses, without using money. Probably sounds stupid to you, but here’s why. You need to think about the things that aren’t money, and pretending that money doesn’t exist will force you to think them through. You’ll also have to think about what other parties need, other than ‘money,’ that motivates them to work. And that might just help you get your costs down.
 

biophase

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Really? Please show me examples then of something that has low product development and unit cost and is actually a top tier product in terms of quality.
I just met a guy a few days ago. He makes high quality leather belts from his home. Sells them for alot of money online. Is there alot of capital needed? Not that much. Go buy good quality leather. Have good skills in cutting, hole punching and stitching. Buy high quality buckles. Put them together. Most of the quality comes from the labor, not that actual cost of materials.

So I just looked on my desk and I see my wallet. Nothing special, a nice leather wallet. I don't know much about wallets, but I'm going to imagine that a top tier wallet uses nicer leather and stitching. How much product development would go into this?

BTW, just a coincidence that both my examples happen to use leather. I have at least 10 other examples that I can think of... but I can't divulge the products.

Your problem is that you think that just because you can't do it, that it is impossible. Then your mindset reinforces the thought and it eventually becomes a fact in your brain and out pops a thread titled... "Agree? You can't build a top tier physical product without Money" or "Agree or Disagree: Entrepreneurship is a privilege". You hope that people agree because then it means that you were right and the failures were not your fault.

I can't dunk, I tried to alot when I was younger so... Agree? You can't dunk unless you are over 6' tall
 
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MoreValue

MoreValue

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Yeah thats Fastlane reality...
But.... some people have less time for detailed posts than others. If you look around a bit, the member you're trying to discuss with could be a massive asset in your corner & has even offered a service for this.
Good luck.
Thanks

I suggest you follow your username and provide More Value to the users of this forum.

You don't even have a product in mind you're trying to make. You're throwing out complaints about making watches, then toasters. This thread isn't providing any valuable discussion as far as I can tell.

[HASHTAG]#Landfill[/HASHTAG]
This thread had no intention of adding value. Just discussion. Wanted to discuss before I tried again. I have had numerous products in the past.

I was referring to your entitled and contemptuous demand for answers.
My apologies

How many investors did you ask for money?
None, I mean who would invest in another private label brand? An investor for a better toaster oven?

I just met a guy a few days ago. He makes high quality leather belts from his home. Sells them for alot of money online. Is there alot of capital needed? Not that much. Go buy good quality leather. Have good skills in cutting, hole punching and stitching. Buy high quality buckles. Put them together. Most of the quality comes from the labor, not that actual cost of materials.

So I just looked on my desk and I see my wallet. Nothing special, a nice leather wallet. I don't know much about wallets, but I'm going to imagine that a top tier wallet uses nicer leather and stitching. How much product development would go into this?

BTW, just a coincidence that both my examples happen to use leather. I have at least 10 other examples that I can think of... but I can't divulge the products.

Your problem is that you think that just because you can't do it, that it is impossible. Then your mindset reinforces the thought and it eventually becomes a fact in your brain and out pops a thread titled... "Agree? You can't build a top tier physical product without Money" or "Agree or Disagree: Entrepreneurship is a privilege". You hope that people agree because then it means that you were right and the failures were not your fault.

I can't dunk, I tried to alot when I was younger so... Agree? You can't dunk unless you are over 6' tall
I have actual done the leather belts and it is actually high capital. What you are missing is the equipment and tools to make the leather. High quality leather require high quality tools and equipment. They ain’t cheap at all. Good luck using regular tools to cut full grain or English bridle. It can get very expensive. Speaking from experience. Take a look at r/Leathercraft or maybe it’s called leatherworking. Ask if their hobby is cheap, you will get a resounding no.

OP go search "watches" on kickstarter...



what's your excuse now?
Are you implying that these watches required no capital to get started? To get to Kickstarter point with marketing video, prototype, etc. is costly. Ask anyone that tried.
 

RazorCut

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I don’t see it as being drowned out. But as standing out above the sea of cheaper products. I will give another example, Cuisinart Toaster Oven beats all of them, check it out. They stand above it all and probably have significantly less customer complaints due to quality. I am sure their product is that way due to it being a “money pump”
By drowned out I mean pushed way down the Amazon listings by cheaper and inferior products that sell in much higher quantities.
 

biophase

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I have actual done the leather belts and it is actually high capital. What you are missing is the equipment and tools to make the leather. High quality leather require high quality tools and equipment. They ain’t cheap at all. Good luck using regular tools to cut full grain or English bridle. It can get very expensive. Speaking from experience. Take a look at r/Leathercraft or maybe it’s called leatherworking. Ask if their hobby is cheap, you will get a resounding no.
please tell me what tools and equipment you would need in order to make a leather belt.
 

SquatchMan

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None, I mean who would invest in another private label brand? An investor for a better toaster oven?
Of course no one is going to invest in a private label brand (you could probably find someone if you sell it right tbh), which should be a good signal not to create one.

I mean, your original point in post #1 isn't wrong. It takes money and time to develop a quality product. If it didn't, then everyone would do it since the risk would be low.

The easy solution is to find money. Money isn't a scarce resource.

I still don't understand the point of this thread.

It takes money to develop a product? Is that really surprising?
 

Rabby

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Good lord. I made stuff out of leather and sold it when I was a teenager. It's cheap, especially something like belts. What tools did you feel like you had to buy? All the tools I had were less than the cost of one hide. Plus, you can make tools if you have any business being in a shop. I made premium goods that people paid for, with a very low investment, both leather and steel, as a completely green teenager. Go watch videos of people making things in the 3rd world, or in the woods starting with nothing. I'm starting to think you're just trolling.
 

maverick

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What I have noticed about the best physical products, is simple. It is mainly just a money pump. Physical products quality is solely limited, by how much money a person has. My unpopular opinion.

Example: I am building a watch brand. I want to build the best offering for customers.

The crystal of a watch can be made of different materials. I will just go over two materials to demonstrate the point. Mineral and Sapphire. Just a basic search, and sapphire is clearly superior. With that in mind, sapphire is more expensive.

When there is a bad product on the market, it is just because the entrepreneur didn't have enough money to build a solid offering. I can have the intention to develop the best product, but the follow through is by having capital. I am just speaking about the product building step. No way around it. Normally, these products have to be built in house as well.

This is probably why you see businesses that max out of product development, but then have no cash to do marketing. Or the other type of business where they max marketing and have a poor product. Most people don't have money to max both. If you do max both, you are most likely a powerhouse/monopoly in your industry.
You're right. Give up.
 

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