To code or not to code?

[twdavis]

So, I have to ask one simple question: To code or not to code?


A. Would it be wise to learn to code a full language such as PHP, Ruby, etc to build a company like Zuck or whoever?

B. Should you learn to code lightly so that you have a general idea of what's going on....

C. Or, are you better off not learning to code and leaving that to someone else so you can focus on more important things in the company?

 

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[Angus]

Read this thread: https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/community/threads/learning-to-program-is-stupid.41319/

Also, it's your decision, what do you want to do? Sell software? Program the next big thing? Sell real estate? Invest in the stock market?
Do what you have to do, know your type of business.

 

[Lathan]

Reading this may be helpful: https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/community/threads/learning-to-program-is-stupid.41319/

 

[Lathan]

Read this thread: https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/community/threads/learning-to-program-is-stupid.41319/

lol

 

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[twdavis]

Well, I'd like to build a reasonably big company lol.


Thanks for the thread link btw!

 

[James Fake]

< I edited this reply 1/10 9:56am >

Years ago; I (was a web designer in html frontend and internet markterer already) taught myself how to code Ruby on Rails after getting burned too many times trying to outsource.. Lost thousands trying to get a MVP up and never got one up til I taught myself. Good programmers aren't cheap.. the cheap ones are cheap for a reason. Good programmers don't look for work. Good programmers won't entertain your startup partnership pitch because they already have 2 (funded by VCs) they're working on. With that said; 90% of those trying to bootstrap a startup is going have to risk/play in the game of 'find someone cheap to hopefully finish my app' and guess what... you'll lose 7/10 times no matter how great you think you can pre-screen.

Anyways; fast forward to today.. I can build any f'ing thing I want. Pursue any idea I want. Build support tools or automate anything I need. Build an MVP of any app idea, soft launch, test the viability of the idea; with zero money but some elbow grease. For example; I plan on building out a web app like Fancy.com for my niche here in the next month. I also get some nice cushy job offers all the time from head hunters. I also get plenty of 'pitch' emails asking to partner up for equity (no thanks).

At the end of the day; it's different strokes for different folks.. all about what you are wanting to do. I will say this; one sneaky little thing that will bite you in the a$$ is bug fixes, future development, emergency development, etc. etc. - the unknown stuff will make you go broke even if your MVP starts bringing in revenue. I just know for me; it was the right path, and having this skill set pays off big time.

This is a blog I wrote that went viral years ago.. still gets crap load weekly emails. Enjoy: http://www.jamesfend.com/learned-ruby-rails-12-weeks-launch-freelancify

 

[HappyFighter]

I'm going to be biased here because I have coding skills, but there are lots of open-source tools, libraries, and frameworks out there that can make programming a moderately-sized site possible for one person.

Also, learning to code is in-line with MJ's commandment of control. I have read some posts here about founders being screwed by freelancers or being built a product that is not really what they want. Though, that can be circumvented by properly researching people you're going to hire and through proper communication.

It's your call, though.

 

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[craig1928]

Personally I would(and can)

 

[healthstatus]

Well, I'd like to build a reasonably big company

Let's see...
1) Learn to Code
2) Learn to sell, market, attract investors, hire good people, manage the vision of the company, optimize operations, franchise, take lots of money to the bank.

hmmmm.....

 

[Ryllban]

DON'T LEARN TO CODE!

Based on the info you gave, or the reason you want to learn to code:

Well, I'd like to build a reasonably big company lol.

I was in the same situation. I started to learn code (2 times and both times I gave up), because I found the amazing thread above you + what would have not only taken me 6 months or more could easily be shortened down to 1 week or a few days. And when you start to think in tose terms, learning to code some basic stuff for 6 months that could be done in a day or two seems retarded.

Time is your most valuable asset. But on the other side, once you got your company up and running, yes you may want to learn some basic knowledge so that you can do the basic stuff on your own. Or hire a good programmer for it.

And because you seem like you don't really know what company or business you want to build, then learn to sell and market instead. Would benefit you more in the long run!


Edit: You know what, look at this:

I was/still am a bit of a wantrepreneur because I have this thinking that I should do that or this and build that or this before I find my customer. And that is just bullshit + if you do what these guys say, you can save sooo much time and money. Also, you will enter a market or sell a product you know there is demand on.

Im starting to implement this on my won. Powerful shit!

 

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[James Fake]

Out of curiosity, those that say a definite "Dont Learn To Code", what is your live web app, how does it look, and how does it function? Can you please post to it so we can take a look instead of speaking in ambiguity

 

[MJ DeMarco]

What's that old saying that is tossed around here like a beach ball??? I'd rather be rich...

 

[Ryllban]

Out of curiosity, those that say a definite "Dont Learn To Code", what is your live web app, how does it look, and how does it function? Can you please post to it so we can take a look instead of speaking in ambiguity

Sure! I have this website that a programmer is building right now. Was supposed to be done yesterday but I think we will be done today. Can post it up when its online!
Edit: Yeah Im noit saying a definite: Don't code (even if I may have put it that way in my post), Im just saying that if your goal is to learn to code because you want to build something and earn cash from it, then don't learn to code, hire someone instead.

But if your goal is to actually learn to code because you think coding is fun, then go for it!

Thats what I have been learning and to me it makes alot of sense.

 

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[Shades]

Its a tough decision. If you want to code know that it will be a major time investment. And a ongoing one. There are big perks to knowing how to do it. But there are many languages to learn. And you will have to keep up with it.

Id say learn basics. Just so you have a general understanding. And keep in mind that anything you need to know or learn can be found online. If you have a site coded for you and later have bugs that need fixed you can always research how to do certain things. You will learn a lot just by tending to things as they come up.

Its always something in the back of my mind I want to learn. But it kind of comes down to how many hats do you want to where? Id say finding a way to bring value to a market and marketing that idea is more important. As long as you can give a clear and detailed vision of what you want you should be able to outsource your site. Just do your research.

I think learning copy writing is something that should be done before even thinking about coding. If you cant sell, the site doesnt really mean anything does it?

 

[James Fake]

Was supposed to be done yesterday but I think we will be done today.

Not to be an a$$.. but go ahead and add another week to that deadline. Anything near complete (by tomorrow) like that would already be accessible online in a staging server..

 

[Ryllban]

Not to be an a$$.. but go ahead and add another week to that deadline. Anything near complete (by tomorrow) like that would already be accessible online in a staging server..

Nah its cool. Yeah but what Im trying to do is to put up the basic idea and see if there is any demand for it. I know the website is going to have alot of work to it, but if no one wants or need it, then why put any more time to it or take a few weeks or months to build it and then no one wants it.

 

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[James Fake]

Learning "copy writing"?? What the hell do you need to learn exactly? Copy writing to me is easy. Be in the customer's shoes and write the benefits of what you offer in a clear way. If anything; just a/b test two or three versions; most smart marketers are going to do that anyways even if they write like Shakespeare.

That "perfect" copy that's going to raise conversions by 50% is bullshit anyways. I've been doing marketing and hundreds of tests.. at the end of the day, I don't care how well you describe your benefits or product; it's your product thats going to have the final say so. You might get a ever so slightly bump in clicks on a button by the words on it, but they still have to use your product. Then what?

 

[healthstatus]

what is your live web app,

To start with:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/healthstatus-healthtracker/id667949598?mt=8&ign-mpt=uo=4

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/healthcalcs/id366653950?mt=8&ign-mpt=uo=4

Id say learn basics. Just so you have a general understanding.

I started writing code in 1979, I made a 6 figure living off of it for a long time. Last week I was in a meeting with some guys talking about Hadoop and "big data" structures, I did not have a clue WTF they were talking. But you know what? I don't care. I know what is supposed to come out on the other end, I can describe what they get to start with, and what they are supposed to end with. Makes no difference to me the road traveled to get there as long as it is reliable and predictable.

 

[healthstatus]

That "perfect" copy that's going to raise conversions by 50% is bullshit anyways.

Really, your tests never have raised conversion from 2% to 3% (that would be a 50% increase)? Testing has easily put another $100k in my bank account.

 

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[James Fake]

@healthstatus - now now.. let's not get technical. By 50% I meant the actual number like 25% to 75% as an exaggeration. My point was; copywriting is easy.. and it's all tested anyways, there's nothing really to learn.

Your online app (http://www.healthstatus.com) version generates revenue by... Adsense? Your mobile app looks good.. so you would say the normal bootstrap dreamer with a $3,000 - $4,000 max budget to get an MVP is going to be able duplicate what you did? I may be wrong here; but if you make 6 figures, then you were able to fork out more, and I would say (being a programmer myself) it easily took a lot more than $4k to get that up and going what you have today.

 

[James Fake]

Nah its cool. Yeah but what Im trying to do is to put up the basic idea and see if there is any demand for it. I know the website is going to have alot of work to it, but if no one wants or need it, then why put any more time to it or take a few weeks or months to build it and then no one wants it.

There's a lot more ways to soft-test an idea before ever creating the actual app..

 

[Ryllban]

There's a lot more ways to soft-test an idea before ever creating the actual app..

Yeah I know and I admited that in my thread too. I just don't think its always smart to put to much money or time into somrthing you don't really know is going to sell. For me atleast, from now on Im going to validate my ideas before I even put them out there.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

I've modified the poll and featured it on the home page. Curious to see the community's opinion.

 

[AllenCrawley]

Your online app (http://www.healthstatus.com) version generates revenue by... Adsense?

Healthstatus certainly doesn't need my help here but Adsense is just a part of his overall monetization strategy. I've had the privilege of peeking behind the curtain of his business and let's just say he knows what he's doing and does very well at it.

 

[healthstatus]

Your online app (http://www.healthstatus.com) version generates revenue by... Adsense? Your mobile app looks good.. so you would say the normal bootstrap dreamer with a $3,000 - $4,000 max budget to get an MVP is going to be able duplicate what you did? I may be wrong here; but if you make 6 figures, then you were able to fork out more, and I would say (being a programmer myself) it easily took a lot more than $4k to get that up and going what you have today.

Advertising, app sales, product sales, affiliate marketing, software sales, consulting, email, JV, I make money a lot of ways, none of it is from programming anymore.

Both of those apps were created for IOS for around the $4k number, it gets cheaper every time I do one.

 

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[James Fake]

Both of those apps were created for IOS for around the $4k number, it gets cheaper every time I do one.

Wow.. I would applaud you for a job well done then. On time and on budget.. In my experiences and others that I've consulted with; the golden rule of programming is add 2x times the budget and 3x the time frame. A rule many bootstrappers mis-judge and found themselves with never launching their MVP and getting burned.

 

[James Fake]

In general; I guess what my point of view is this:
In seldom cases (especially in the app world) will you find an non-programmer have a successful product. Almost everybody learned to program in some way, shape or form.. got their product launched... then shifted towards the strategy side of things: marketing, branding, etc. etc. Once you have enough capital, yeah, outsourcing is a simp. But to the bootstrapper with $3-4k in income tax refund; it's not; it's make it or break it.

Marketing is easy (it's hard work, but it's easy to understand); it's a process. It's an experience, you learn the tactics from reading but you really learn from application. Marketing always changes and shifts, so you're constantly moving. All it really is; is being in your customer's shoes and finding where they hang out online and connect with them (content, etc. etc. whatever other tactics you read). It's always finding new tactics and applying them to see if they work for your business.. find something that had great ROI then you milk it dry. Rinse. Repeat.

Programming on the other hand, other than language syntax and others, will all share the same foundation. It's a skill set. Like riding a bike, once you understand how to do it, it's easy to do it again regardless of what kind of new bike it is. I learned Ruby on Rails, but I can do almost anything in PHP (almost anything in Wordpress functions I need) just because I know what code will generally do. For example: I just finished up on http://www.startclothingline.org , from nothing to something in 2 days.. fully custom design and I programmed some additional Wordpress custom functionality as well. I wouldn't have been able to do that without being a programmer. I would of been stuck trying to figure out how to move my Title and Name and would be afraid of the 'editor' section of Wordpress. This is just for a small Wordpress site; as mentioned before, I am about to start on a wireframe for a web app that's going to help my niche out.. that would of only been a daydream before I knew how to program.

 

[Shades]

Learning "copy writing"?? What the hell do you need to learn exactly? Copy writing to me is easy.

Then you are ahead of the game. I dont think good copy writing is a easy skill. At least to me. You also said marketing is easy? I just dont see it that way. But knowing how to code and being great at marketing is impressive. You have the tools you need thats for sure.

With coding, you learn it and then do it and get a result. What you learn will output the same result each time. If that makes sense. With marketing I feel its different. In terms of.... if I write a line of code it will always do that function. If I have the same copy it probably wont always give the same results. Theres more of a wildcard to marketing, or a feel for it IMO. So of the two things id rather not outsource the copy. Id rather learn that personally. Of course, I could just be talking out of my a$$ and making no sense.

 

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[Shades]

In general; I guess what my point of view is this:
In seldom cases (especially in the app world) will you find an non-programmer have a successful product. Almost everybody learned to program in some way, shape or form.. got their product launched... then shifted towards the strategy side of things: marketing, branding, etc. etc. Once you have enough capital, yeah, outsourcing is a simp. But to the bootstrapper with $3-4k in income tax refund; it's not; it's make it or break it.

Marketing is easy (it's hard work, but it's easy to understand); it's a process. It's an experience, you learn the tactics from reading but you really learn from application. Marketing always changes and shifts, so you're constantly moving. All it really is; is being in your customer's shoes and finding where they hang out online and connect with them (content, etc. etc. whatever other tactics you read). It's always finding new tactics and applying them to see if they work for your business.. find something that had great ROI then you milk it dry. Rinse. Repeat.

Programming on the other hand, other than language syntax and others, will all share the same foundation. It's a skill set. Like riding a bike, once you understand how to do it, it's easy to do it again regardless of what kind of new bike it is. I learned Ruby on Rails, but I can do almost anything in PHP (almost anything in Wordpress functions I need) just because I know what code will generally do. For example: I just finished up on http://www.startclothingline.org , from nothing to something in 2 days.. fully custom design and I programmed some additional Wordpress custom functionality as well. I wouldn't have been able to do that without being a programmer. I would of been stuck trying to figure out how to move my Title and Name and would be afraid of the 'editor' section of Wordpress. This is just for a small Wordpress site; as mentioned before, I am about to start on a wireframe for a web app that's going to help my niche out.. that would of only been a daydream before I knew how to program.

That particular site tho only requires basic understanding of code. You could whip that up on Wordpress in a day or two. Really, a lot of sites you could. Now when you get into apps or sites with a certain custom function then its a different story.

 

[James Fake]

@Shades - oh.. for sure. I am a firm believer in 10% product/ 90% marketing. It's just that with web apps and such; getting that initial product to life to even get to a point to switch to marketing is a feat all on it's own.

The Wordpress site was a small example; it does have some additional pieces I put in. But in general; the person with no basic understanding of even just if/else loops won't be able to tailor the simplest sites to their needs. They have to settle with pre-packaged things that usually doesn't suit all their critical needs to launch an MVP.