Here to destroy all your preconceived notions about college

[dknise]

It's no secret. I hate college.

In less than a month I will be giving a speech to high school seniors in my area (who are choosing not to go to college) about what options they have and how to grasp their full potential.

For these kids and nearly all Americans, the indoctrination of "you have to go to college" starts when the kids are just 12 or 13. My first experience was when a school councilor came into my class to talk about preparing for college. I was in 7th grade.

Why go to college?
So I can get a good job.
I want to be educated.
I am expected to by not only my family, but society.
I want to make a lot of money.

Destroying your thoughts #1: So I can get a good job:
Despite what you have been promised since day one, a college education does not promise you a "good job." It is no single person's responsibility in society who's official title is "job creator." The next time you're in Target, Best Buy, or a restaurant and see someone who looks like they're old enough to have a degree, ask them what degree they got. They'll probably tell you. I'm pretty sure I could walk in to any three of those places and land that same job without spending four years of my life and $100,000 to become edumacated.

Destroying your thoughts #2: I want to be educated:
Take a good hard look in the mirror and ask yourself if you're goal is to get a piece of paper that says you are smart or if you are actually yearning for the knowledge behind it. K-12 education should be teaching students how to learn and how to find out what they want and need to know. Instead of preparing students to do this, research classes are taught to prep you how to use these skills for college papers, not for real life. Public educators are convincing students every day that the only way to learn something new is by going to school and taking a class for it. Rather than being focused on freeing people from school, they are breeding students to become dependent on it. Do you feel empowered now?:smilielol:

So what are you going to get when you get to college? For the first two years, you'll be completing under-grad courses that are no more difficult than what you took in high school. You'll be shoved in a room with 400 people learning from a 23 year old guy who touts his double majors and vast life experience. Do the math on what you're paying for, and you'll find out that at a common four year university, you'll be paying about $35 per hour for that course. 400 people x $35 / hour = $14,000 to have a 23 year old grad student teach you about starting a successful business. Congrats.

Don't worry though, the 23 year old grad isn't actually going to be teaching from his vast knowledge of experience of 0 days outside of his college frat house, but they will have you purchase a book from their book store which will be the sole source of knowledge. How do you think this book is chosen? By the credentials, authority, and experience of the author? Or the person and publishing company that gives the school the best deal? Yes, it is number two. Integrity fail, but at least you get a good school discounted price right? No. Nearly every single book is double the price of what you would pay if you were to do your own research on purchasing the book and found it on Amazon. So I'll just borrow my friends book right? No. They update the books with a single change every semester and tell their students they have to have the newest one for this course. But don't worry, you'll be able to sell it back to the bookstore after your one quarter or semester class, for 5% the price.

The last time I checked, libraries were free. In an age where knowledge has never been more accessible to an individual, it is surprising how incapable the average person is from taking advantage of it. I have access to more information from the touch interface of my phone than my parents had in the entire libraries of both of their colleges combined and yet our new generation still gives the excuse that they can't learn something until they go to school.

Libraries used to be centers for intellectuals. People flocked to them to not only gain knowledge, but also to create new knowledge. If you can't even hold yourself responsible for finding knowledge (and have to pay someone who's under qualified to do it for you), then how do you ever expect to add to the human knowledge base. Who are the "knowledge creators?" Could Bill Gates have gone to school and learned to do what his company produced? Or was he one of these knowledge creators?

Destroying your thoughts #3: I am expected to by not only my family, but society:
Great! So you've decided you want to be a millionaire and are interested in the fastlane. The best people to learn from are the people that epitomize what and who you want to become. Since your parents and every single person in society is a millionaire with a successful business, who better to listen to. #sarcasm. Why on earth would you listen to somebody's advice who hasn't done it and proved it's success? The all mighty irony of people who say that TMF taught them more in 300 pages than their business degree did, is that one was taught by people who regurgitate information for $100,000, and the other cost $7 and was written by a guy who actually did it. Choose who you listen to. Read voraciously and always desire to learn more, but research who it is you are learning from. Rather than go to class and read what the guy who's never started a business in the front of the room wants you to read... read the book cover to cover from the guy who actually did what's in his book. If you want to strive above the average of society, why take their path knowing where it leads to?

Destroying your thoughts #4: I want to make a lot of money:
Define "a lot." Do you define wealth in the amount of money you have or the freedom that you have in your life? Do you think about how that money is acquired or are you so anxious that you take the immediate route of what will get you it here and now because society said so?

It takes money to make money. The irony of listening to entrepreneur's in school talk about how hard it is to start up a company with no funds is that they're spending thousands on their edumacation every year which could be put towards starting a business.

One of the things I will be talking to the high school seniors about is debt. When you hear about predatory loan practices, student loans never seem to come up. Kids are forced into a situation where they are led to believe that the people they are listening to are giving them the best possible advice. They can't be steered wrong. For the school councilor that is make $40,000 a year and still paying off his student loans from 12 years ago, he's probably not the guy I want to be listening to about how to properly provide myself with a skill set to start a multi-million dollar company. High school students are led to take on 6 figures of crippling debt with the promise of a better tomorrow. Think about what you could do with $100,000 in business.



Unlike your college professor, I am taking the advice I have just given. I quit school three years ago, have read hundreds of books on my own, started several successful businesses, learned what I want and what I don't want out of life, became a professional programmer, worked at Microsoft as a software dev before CS majors even graduated, have more money in the bank than most of the guys my age have in debt after college, and still know that I am in the absolute infant stages of my journey and have so so so incredibly much more to learn. I am not saying to take my advice... I am NOT the person who has been there, done that, and has the life that you want to live. I urge you to find those people for what you want to learn and listen to them. Get out of the student-teacher relationship and get into the mentor-apprentice. Become an apprentice by reading material of the people you want to listen to. You don't have to have direct communication to have a mentor. Last but not least, if you choose this route, don't expect anybody to agree with you. Like I said, your parents and society are expecting you to do one thing, but you don't want what "everyone" has. You want more. It's a lonely road, but you have to take actions that few do to live like few can.

 

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[Kak]

With today's available resources, college is 10000000000% worthless for an entrepreneur.

Look at the opportunity cost here. 100-150k could literally buy you a lifetime of learning specific knowledge through books, mastermind groups, and seminars. College classes are vague bullshit. There is no way "business" can be taught. It must be learned through experience or specific medium like books. Not once was I taught how to file my taxes for my LLC and 1099 income at the end of the year in business school. I was never taught the most cost effective advertising mediums, how to cold call, how to network, how to pay employees, unfucking believably worthless. I spent over 100k to go to school. I have about 4,500 left on my loans, guess what, it has been so worthless I would sell my degree for $100 right now and throw it at the stupid a$$ loan. Seriously the #1 worst decision of my life to go.

The only think I know I learned was public speaking and I could have learned that for less than $100 in toastmasters apparently. I am feeling extra scammed today. I plan to write a book on this.

 

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[mayana]

There is something really important that has been left out of this discussion. I'm sure that no one under the age of 21 will want to hear it (I know I certainly didn't like it when I heard it when I was younger)...

A lot of employers like people with college degrees for different reasons than you might think.

1. Completing a college degree is a way to demonstrate that you have certain character traits that most employers want to see in their employees (ability to learn, ability to start something and see it through, project management skills, etc). This doesn't mean that there is no other way to acquire these skills, but it a simple way for them to evaluate a resume. If they don't see a degree, they have to work harder to see what you've been up to.

2. A lot of times, it's tougher to get jobs with higher levels of responsibility until you are at least of college graduate age. This is just the truth. I know a dozen people will argue and say that they are the exception. Good for you; I am glad that it worked out for you. College is a good use of the time immediately after high school for a lot of people.

And for those who say that you never need to go to college: I'll be damned if you are operating on my brain without a crap load of diplomas on the wall behind you.

 

[Vigilante]

I was quoted in CIO magazine in 2000 (when most of you were still in grade school...lol).

CNN.com - Technology - Are e-commerce degrees just a fad? - September 11, 2000

Dave Happe, president of Ecruiters.net in Chanhassen, Minn., an executive search company that specializes in Internet technology and e-commerce, thinks that these degrees aren't getting at the heart of what is needed today. "Our clients would take a young talent with six months' worth of 18-hour days at a B2B startup company over a Harvard e-commerce graduate," he says. "Ideas that led the industry a year ago now bankrupt companies that haven't changed several times since then."

The experience from the school of hard knocks that you all can get on the street is more valuable to you than what a professor can teach you from a text book in most cases. At prestigious colleges, the professor teaching an entrepreneurial class might have excellent credentials from Microsoft... but that doesn't mean he has ever boot strapped a business from the ground up. At mid tier universities down to community colleges, teachers in the college of business may or may not have ever built a business.

When I was in junior high, we had a teacher for the pre-teen subject of sex-ed. The problem was that this teacher was literally 400+ lbs., and unmarried. The likelihood that she had ever had sex was an unassumed zero. Nobody listened to her, as she was not an experienced expert in the subject matter in which she spoke.

You can give me all the pie charts, case studies, and theories in the world... but unless you have made a payroll at the expense of your family, developed a skill that built a company that subsequently had value outside of your own mind, or can demonstrate some degree of entrepreneurial success... you're not worth listening to in an academic setting.

I think business degrees are near worthless. At best, they are tie breakers. At worst, they're $100,000 boat anchors. Degrees in law, psychology, engineering, or other professions that require credentials are valuable and mandatory for those professions. If your intention is to get a B.A. in Liberal Arts, save your money. Apply at Subway with the rest of your graduating class, and save yourself $100k.

 

[JAJT]

Can't recall if I said it in this thread or not but I'll say it again:

In all the jobs I've held, not a single one of them mentioned college or schooling during the hiring process. Not a single one.

I even tried talking about it and proactively bringing it up in interviews (back when college was one of my biggest "assets" due to lack of employment history). Nobody cared. Nobody.

They would say "Oh, that's neat... ahem... now I see here that you worked for McDonald's a few years back, tell me about that".

They were literally more interested in my experiences in fast food than my college diploma. No talk of grades, courses, projects, books, or insights learned. Nope. All they cared about was how I handled a difficult situation with my peers while making burgers. Or how my previous boss thought of me. Or whether I worked for anyone who would give a reference. Or how much customer experience I had.

I can't express enough the feeling of egg on my face when I found out I got my first corporate job as a result of having worked in a call center almost 4 years prior. All I could think of was the $150,000ish I left on the table by being out of the job market for 3 years.

 

[dknise]

I would personally love to hear your smack in the face talk to these high schoolers. No one had this mind set back when I was in high school. It was either work, go to college, or start a business with no demand and tons of competition based on selfish desires to own a business about "this" or "that". I can see teachers getting quite insulted and worked up because of the speech but hey, sometimes the truth hurts.

Haha let's just say it didn't go over too well with the councilor's, even though I did not present it as so "in your face."

Councilor: "You're a useless college dropout who has no future. No, I will not let you give these kids a false sense of hope. You don't even know what you're talking about and these kids are screwing over their future by not going to college."

Me: "My advice is telling these kids they do have a future. You've given up on them. You tell them they're worthless just like you're telling me that now. You're not only stealing their motivation and self worth, but their future. I'm here to give that back and quite frankly, I don't appreciate the insults. Why do you consider yourself qualified to get unknowing KIDS into signing loans for hundreds of thousands of dollars? You don't own a business, you don't make a substantial amount of money, and I doubt any of the kids you advise would want the life you have. I'm going to tell them to listen to the people who have they life they want. You sir, are not the person they should be listening to."

There were quite a few emails back and forth like this and I'm sure he'll be sitting there shitting himself during the whole thing hahaha.


oh ps: I am telling them that K-12 education is entirely necessary and worth it. It should prepare them to begin learning on their own though, which is not what's being pushed. I know these kids are excited about learning, so I want to put a spark in them when they realize they can do it on their own.

 

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[Vigilante]

Sure! I have a son in engineering school, and a daughter studying psychology. Both professions require a certain skill set, and a credential you can only gain from college. There are certain professions which require formal education.

 

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[Runum]

I am a father of a 21 yo college junior. I am also a 5th grade science teacher. I have also taught a lot of high school classes, including some remedial work. Most high school students, including my own kid, do not have the maturity and skills to weigh a decision like this. Not sure why. Most of them talk a BIG talk but can't and will not walk the walk. They think they graduate from HS and will be balllin. Most do not have the toughness it takes to stick with an idea and take their lumps.

I do agree that there needs to be alternatives offered to just college. I would really enjoy teaching shop class with some tech if offered. However, too many excuses are being accepted for the lack of direction of young adults. Overall, I really don't see a lot of gumption from most of them. Worries me a lot.

 

[miked_d]

Internet Argument!

 

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[Vigilante]

The most worthwhile business teachers are guys like MJ that cash out... need something to do with their time... and end up donating some time to the local community college. Those guys are rare... but are worth gold and show up in some unlikely places. What a great way to give back once you have made it over the mountain.

A critical distinction you will see about entrepreneurs that lend their skills to academia is that they don't drink the kool-aid. They will bring with them a healthy degree of skepticism and war scars that make their experience and their words worth studying.

 

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[LamboMP]

I hope I never see another college thread again. It's getting real old.

Almost as old as the "gonna make a million in 10 month" type of threads.

 

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[theDarkness]

Oh my god, OP. You are so incredibly full of yourself that I as a high schooler would have never listened to a word you said.

Any speech you give is going to be completely wasted. They'll see that your foremost interest is feeding your own ego, and they will tune you out instantly.

Focus on the message, and on helping these people make an informed decision. Cut out all the ego crap.

Nah I hear it all the time. If I listened to everyone who said you can't do something, I wouldn't have accomplished anything. I have more job offers in my email box for software dev work than are posted on most websites haha and I have no desire to work for a company again. I landed a job in a week that required a major in CS and 5 years of experience with none of that. I've had countless offers since and get contracts that can be completed in a weekend making more money than college grads make in a month. But no, you're right. Keep up the defeatist attitude.

 

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[dknise]

Thing about dropouts is, they often leave not because they are jaded with the ideas of college education but because they are lazy and simply don't wanna do the work. These kids, in my opinion, need the military or Job Corps and would totally not be suited to be entrepreneurs. What do you think?

I dunno about that. A lot of kids dropped out for the same reasons I did and I didn't know what I was going to do when I did. I trusted the Steve Jobs speech where he said follow your heart and the dots won't connect till years later.

Society tells people they'll be worthless without going, like my high school does. It's hard for people to succeed when they literally don't think there is any other option. There are tons of options.

 

[PatrickP]

The problem is a good deal of kids who say they don't want to go to college will NEVER have a successful business which leaves them uneducated competing for a job against other people who will crush them if the company prefers a degree, which is the majority of all companies.

I see NO reason not to 'waste at least 2 years and get your AA degree. Just go to a community college and also work so you don't have loans.

Then if your dream of owning your own business which is more probably than improbable, you have at least something to fall back on.

I cringe when I think what will be going on with these kids in 20 years. 40 years old no education, failed at business stuck in jobs WORSE than their 'stupid' friends who did the horrible thing of going and getting a college degree.

 

[dknise]

For most high paid jobs you will need an education. Saying that is not true, is being plain naive and it would be like an endless discussion to 'convince' you otherwise. I am unsure if you have any life experience or just some image in your head how easy it's going to be to just 'nail the interview by being in control of succes'.

'Know your shit' for recruiters, most of the times means: college degree, or university degree in X. That's how they pick people most of the time. That's the reality.
'Get an interview', the reality is, that you are not even on the radar for them. Your CV is crap, because you have no educational background. That's where recruiters look for, almost always. 99% of the time a college degree or an university is a very hard demand. If you don't have it, you will get skipped. Sad, but true, since I believe there are very talented people without a degree. Unfortunately, there is to many to pick in a very large pool of employees trying to get a job on the market.

Cool story bro.

 

[Swoop]

To the OP:

I think it's great what you are doing. Kids in school these days are pretty much told "go to college or you're worthless". What we are starting to see is every mid to lower level student racking up tons of debt on a worthless degree from a terrible college that prints degrees, just to say "I went to college".

The timing of this thread is crazy for me. I was just having a conversation with my mom about my little brother who is still in college. He is 3 years into school and has probably withdrawn from or failed more classes than he has completed. He is not stupid by any means, but he is skipping classes, missing assignments, basically just going through the motions. He actually just dropped all of his classes for the semester and my parents are pretty upset about it. My mom actually said to me "He can always work for your Dad's company, but we just want him to have a college degree. I dont care what it is in as long as he finishes college." I didnt want to get into this discussion with her, but it seems more and more obvious that college is not for my brother, at least not until he decides what he wants to do for a living, and if that "requires" a degree. I dont think he is going to be the next great entreprenuer, but I am starting to think he would be better off working and learning some industry from experience right now instead of wasting time and money with literature and history classes that he doesnt go to. My parents are in a position where they can pretty easily afford to pay his way, so I guess if they want him to graduate, then they are fine paying for it, but most people would be $50k in debt and no closer to making money.

On the flip side, I did go to college and I dont regret it, even as I am starting to realize that I dont want to work for someone else any more. Yes, there was a ton of wasted time and money taking bs classes that I think is a joke, but the experience and maturity I gained was well worth it. As a private schooled white kid from south GA, I wasnt exactly exposed to many differing ideas, cultures, or beliefs (putting it lightly haha). Before college, I had never met a Jew, homosexual, atheist, asian, middle easterner, hell, barely a democrat. College was a great chance to get out of my comfort zone and meet and learn from a hugely diverse crowd, all gathered in the same place. I didnt let them brainwash me , but I definitely have learned from hearing other's perspective. I guess this could all be learned from getting out in the real world, but my experience is that those that dont go off to college stay home and dont really change anything.

I wouldnt tell kids that college is evil, but I wish that they were presented with an equal option. Right now it's "GO TO COLLEGE, YAY!", or "Didnt go to college...have fun at McDonalds". Sadly I think that a lot of these kids give up because they might not be good at academics early on, and they are told that their future is either academics or being poor.

I would say that you seem a little too biased AGAINST college to talk to kids who are still making up their minds, but for kids that are not going I think you could really inspire them and show them that their are other options for them. I think a non biased presentation of college vs alternatives as equally good options, starting in middle school would be the best thing for the kids, but I dont see the schools changing their philosophy.

All, in all, if your presentation can help one kid to a better life, then it is worth it. I think it's great that you are taking your time to help educate others.


Sorry for the long post haha.


-Swoop

 

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[The-J]

At prestigious colleges, the professor teaching an entrepreneurial class might have excellent credentials from Microsoft... but that doesn't mean he has ever boot strapped a business from the ground up.

My intro management professor is a serial entrepreneur. He's been in the start-up scene since before the dot-com boom and crash of 2000. He has some amazing things to say about running businesses and starting them. He seems to like me. Don't know why.

One day, a substitute professor came in to teach our class (he's the head of the Management department). He said some stupid a$$ things about running a business. If my real professor knew what he was saying he would have slapped him.

It's cool having a professor who can talk the talk and walk the walk.

This reminds me, I have an exam tomorrow for this class

 

[DeletedUser394]

It used to be that the only two certainties in life were death and taxes. Well, unless you're an American or Eritrean citizen, it is fairly easy to legally avoid paying all or most taxes. (America and Eritrea are the only two countries on earth that tax based on citizenship regardless of residency)

So now the only two certainties in life are death, and the never ending college and programming threads.

 

[clarkster009]

A lot of info and I am feeling lazy but...

the one problem you mentioned about campus bookstores paying $hit for books led to the creation of this site: Rent Textbooks. Buy Textbooks. Textbook Rentals | Chegg.com

I have purchased from them before, and sold, it's a slick system they set up. It was started by a couple fresh college graduates that saw a need...I think I remember it coming out around 2004 when I was in undergrad and I think I used them a couple times for my Master's books a couple years ago.

 

[dknise]

This whole idea of a college "safety net" is complete non sense. You would be better off to go straight into the workforce and save some money while educating yourself. Even if its at Mcdonalds. You are gonna work there after college, so you might as well start now.

I just got paid more money than most college grads are shooting for to go to a white collar software development job where everyday I had to learn how to do the job I was doing. The requirements for the job were a degree in Computer Science and 5+ years of experience with C#. I had 4 months when I took the job. During my time there, I watched 6 new college grads with CS get let go within a month of joining for being under qualified.

I'm a stronggg believer that minimum wage and non-discrimination laws hurt the people they are meant to protect. To take an unpaid internship that teaches you more in 6 months than you could with 4 years of college, you have to provide no net worth or value to the company. If you do anything that paid employee could do, they have to pay you the minimum wage. If you can find an employer that will let you work for nickels and dimes, DO IT. You might get to work with word class people for a world class entrepreneur and freaking get paid for it. You'll learn more in the year or two you work there and be getting paid for it. When the other option is to spend $35 / hour for courses taught by people not doing what they teach... it's a no brainer.

 

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[MMatt]

On the subject of reading books, I was one of the kids who never read. I don't recall actually finishing one book in its entirety throughout high school. They wasted my time with fantasies and fictional bull that will get me nowhere. Now that I've graduated high school and read non fiction books to help me educate myself, it does not bother me to read a book every night because I know its applicable to my life.

I would personally love to hear your smack in the face talk to these high schoolers. No one had this mind set back when I was in high school. It was either work, go to college, or start a business with no demand and tons of competition based on selfish desires to own a business about "this" or "that". I can see teachers getting quite insulted and worked up because of the speech but hey, sometimes the truth hurts.

 

[Vigilante]

50% of American kids that graduate high school don't go on to college.

50% of college freshman never graduate.

Nobody tells the kids these statistics. It's about time we started being honest.

 

[Lights]

No offense,

but most people are lazy and need to be guided like a dog through life. A lot of people are mindless, it doesn't mean they are stupid, but they lack all initiative to go off the road less travel. There are a lot of mindless smart and educated people. If you give the average single person 100,000, by the end of the year he would had dwindle it to nothing, and have nothing to show for it.

I have a mindless brother. He listens to everyone's opinions, and doesn't create what he wants in life. Tells me he is going to drop out of college, without a backup plan. He can't hold on a job longer than 3 weeks, because it's too hard. He's just all talk.

So that's why I doubt most drop out college students are going to become anything... they need something to smack them in the head and wake them up to reality. They usually drop out because they are lazy.

and this isn't just drop outs either. this applies to everyone! and it's a good thing too. People think they are trap when their past their youth, and so they never change. People blame their lives on God, Obama, Satan, or some weird forest deity. They don't look into the mirror.

I have a family members who suffer from poverty, and I don't have one ounce of sympathy for them.... why? How is it that at 20 yrs old I have more spending money than you at age 45+??? How is it that I can quit my job and know I can live for another 2-5 yrs without working again. Don't cry about being broke, don't assume anything about me, because I'll never ask anyone for money.

And don't get me started on married people, no sympathy.

 

[dknise]

dknise needs to practice his argument skills. I hope you don't argue with people in real life the way you argue with people on the Internet. Try telling 'cool story bro' to one of your customers and see if they buy from you ever again.

----The customer is always right. I'm not dealing with customers right now though. I have a backbone and am cut-throat. Not a bad quality to have imo.
I've heard that same BS a billion times. As I said in my first post, it's a lonely road if you choose to go it. Skys, the majority agrees with you, we all know this. I completely disagree. That's the point of the post and it's for those who are wondering if anyone's ever thought that way too. If you noticed... I'm going to talk to kids who aren't going to college. I'm not even going to try and convince anyone who wants to go not to.


You can't get that job, it requires a degree. Did it.
You can't know as much as a person with a degree. Did it. Now I know more.
You can't learn without school. Did it.

And you wonder why I'm so hostile? hahaha Quit telling me what I can't do when I'm doing it. And quit telling everyone else they can't either.

 

[DeletedUser394]

Ego: Off the charts.
Age: 22.

Now I get it.

Anyway, JScott I'm really glad to see you posting again!!! Great stuff as always

 

[Runum]

I'll agree just because of the strong tone I've had in this thread. It's funny that you never question a teacher when they claim their knowledge and experience without having been in the field. Double standard?

Teachers get questioned all the time. I am doubted by parents, administrators, guys on the street, and anyone else who thinks they know it all. I still enjoy working with the students though.

 

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[AgonI]

I think what dknise is saying is that if you want to go fastlane at an early age, YOU DON'T need to go to college. This is a fact, has been proven tons of times, I am not gonna list them because we all know who they are.

Now if you have a slowlane mindset, of course you are going to go to college, waste 4 years of your life listening to some Indian or Chinese professor having difficulties spelling the correct professional terms, let alone teaching you what they are, completing your 'general studies' bs which includes extremely STUPID material/classes which you are NEVER going to use again unless you go to a who wants to be a millionaire quiz as a day job, etc etc.

Dknise is VERY right and he has proven it. I go to college myself(I MUST as I am an international student) and I truly,honestly think that college, unless you are attending MIT, Harvard, or one of the top 10 unis, is a waste of time. I've spent 3 years taking classes as of this moment, I have one more year to finally graduate from this crap, and I can GUARANTEE that if I were to spend ONLY 6 months reading about 10-15 programming books, I would've been a million times better programmer than what I am right now.

So to sum it up:
College = SLOWLANE
Now, of course just because you decided not to go to college is not fastlane, you have to spend tons and tons of time teaching yourself things that are sooooooo easily accessible online for much cheaper than one credit hour cost at college, but hey, at least you don't have to worry about your next 'media studies' assignment which will take 3 hours to finish, and you will NEVER use it again. Nor you are going to have to worry about working 20-40 hours per week to pay off your college nonsense. You can instead spend ALL THAT TIME that you are never going to get back ever in your life, studing a different topic by reading another book related to whatever you've decided to study as a 'major'.

 

[The-J]

There is literally zero difference in education quality between Harvard and Stanford and a highly ranked public university. (I use the term highly-ranked very loosely and I'm not talking about UC Berkeley. I'm talking about your above-average public 4-year university)

There is a difference in the people, however. I've met many entrepreneurs and some self-made millionaires. Talk about a fire under your a$$, meeting kids who have made a million dollars before their 18th birthday. (The kids in question are not entrepreneurs but are child actors lol). One of my friends started a nonprofit music charity last year. The work they are doing is absolutely amazing. An acquaintance of mine is a member of a team doing a start-up that's been mentioned on Fox News and is getting a BBC mention. Another friend of mine was mentioned on Forbes (!!) for his tech start-up. The list goes on and on, and these guys are my age.

The professors are also somewhat better. I only say somewhat because Nobel laureates and the like don't just work at Ivys but at public universities as well. Good luck getting a Nobel laureate to even talk to you, though. They are too wrapped up in their own research.

The biggest reward to a good university is the network. If you can get into a good university for free or almost free (which isn't rare among Ivies), I'd recommend going for a year or two, and if school really isn't for you, drop out. You still have the network whether you graduate or not.

 

[splok]

Over the last four years, I've continually wishes someone had presented the alternative before I wasted a year of my life and $25,000. You can't give people a choice if you only present one option.

Obviously there's a bunch of college grads here who are getting super offended... sorry you spent so much and got so little haha. Tough luck.

Erm what? Your quoted me but it doesn't even seem like you read my post. I'm not a big fan of college. I don't have kids (but I assume I will at some point), and I can't even imagine sending them to grade school, let alone university (unless they really want to do something with utterly requires it). I wouldn't go to college if I had my live to live over knowing what I know now. The problem is, I came to know what I know now via my experiences, many of which occurred during college.

I did spend a lot on college, in money and time, but if that helped get me, mentally, from where I was at 18 to where I am now, then it was money and time well spent, even if it wasn't the optimal path. If people can find a shorter path to where they want to be, then they should definitely take it. However, walk outside and take a look around. How many of those people will ever be mentally ready to shoot for the fastlane?

Also, since you sound a bit hostile here I have to ask, why exactly is it someone else's responsibility to present you with alternatives? You wasted four years of your life because you didn't do your own research? Touch luck indeed.

 

[GPG]

Why go to college?
So I can get a good job.
I want to be educated.
I am expected to by not only my family, but society.
I want to make a lot of money.

In my opinion, all of your statements make sense in some way regarding choosing for college or university. However, I have been raised in the Netherlands, where the college and university experience may be different than yours. A major difference is that going to college or university in the Netherlands is relatively affordable, leading to less or no debt. I am in my final year and have no debt at all. Your arguments in favour of skipping college or university do make sense, but probably do not apply to all students.

Now, as I mentioned in my introduction thread too, I am doing a Master in Entrepreneurship and New Business Venturing. According to your theory, I am a lunatic who is wasting his time. However, this Master is teaching me how to identify business opportunities, teaches me necessary entrepreneurial skills, teaches me how to organize efficient start-ups, teaches me how to accelerate growth, when to sell the venture, how to attract financial resources, how to innovate. I get three guest lectures a week, of which a majority has started and is running serious businesses in terms of turnover and profit. This Master programme is running for three years now, but has already delivered its first millionaires, noted in the Dutch version of Forbes magazine (Quote). The university has its own incubator programme, helping you in your first years as an entrepreneur and in obtaining your degree.

 

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