Learning to Program is STUPID! (or SMART?!)

[Gale4rc]

Maybe you should look at who started this thread, before you give me any rules on it. And obviously you know little to nothing about this side of it, as many offers allow you to push traffic directly to the affiliate page, so all you have to do is write 3 lines of ad copy.

It's still more then just copy.

Your argument is using copy as a skill beyond freelance vs learning to program

I would still disagree but, I see your point. I would always argue that learning to program is a invaluable skill that not many people have today. (Which is also why there pay is so high starting) Also being able to whip out a MVP (minimum viable product) by yourself in a couple weeks to test an idea without spending a dollar is also very, very, valuable.

I would also argue that affiliate marketing is becoming more and more saturated + more and more shady

You should join the INSIDERS and watch me outsource a native phone app, both IOS and android, I did it for a lot less than that, and had it in the store in about 8 weeks.

I don't doubt this one bit. Let me see specs on the app and I could probably tell you why it was so cheap. We could've also had it done for cheaper but, when you are a mechanic and having another fix your car, you know what to look for to have it done right. Even going along with this analogy, how many people get screwed by mechanics everyday? It's the same with outsourcing.

Whether I was some dumb dumb fighting for this or not - The Quora link I posted should be enough to make you reconsider.

Right, I am talking about quality programming that is bug free, well documented and does what it is supposed to. What you need to know is; the pain your customer is in, how to solve it AND how to compel them to buy your solution. As stated many times previously in this thread, you don't have to know how to build a car to hire a mechanic, or have an MBA to start a business, or a law degree to hire an attorney.

Yes, many times you will get a finished product 'exactly' how you want it. Need to update it? Maybe hired a local guy now to go full-time? Could be a nightmare depending on how the other developer setup his code and will cost you over double now, or the framework gets out dated and is slow compared to everything else because you have a old school .net developer, these are just a few things you need to lookout for.

 

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[FastNAwesome]

my experience losing $10k outsourcing

It hurts to even read about so many guys being burned for so much money. Guys - use milestone payments. That way even if you lose, you're minimizing losses.

If you can't put any effort into the front end and specifications how do you expect to attract the best programmers? When you create specifications, you are creating a sales document that is trying to attract the best talent. If talented coders look at your specs and go, oh crap, this guy is just half-asssing it now, there will be tons of changes, we have to fill in the blanks and write our specs, so the job never gets done and we don't get paid on time, no thanks.

This is SO TRUE. When I see job descriptions like "I want the website that works and looks exactly like xyz" - I automatically skip it. In addition to quoted reasons, another reason is I don't have neither time nor desire to figure WHAT and HOW your favorite site does.

They are expert coders (or at least good coders), not experts on the subject matter, and in many cases they don't understand what the end goal for you and the user is. I prefer to give over the top specs, and then add a line, "if you have any suggestions on how this might work better, please discuss them with me"

I'll just say healthstatus definitely knows how developers tick! The above quoted things can make a job highly desirable in multiple ways:

1. Developer knows exactly WHAT he is expected to do, so...he can actually start working, and he can start right away. It's really a joy having everything specified, so that one can focus on what he does best - programming your specs into reality.

2. Developer knows that he's dealing with someone reasonable, who is open to suggestions to do something this way or that way. Sometimes there's a better way the client wasn't aware of, sometimes technology has limitations and tradeoffs need to be made, so it's good to have someone who is open to discussion

3. Considering 1. and 2., a developer just might be very open to a fixed budget. If someone is pleasure to work with, if goals are clear, a fair price can be agreed to make everyone happy. Even companies will work for fixed budgets.

 

[masaldana2]

any recommendations books on copy health status?

 

[Gale4rc]

2. Developer knows that he's dealing with someone reasonable, who is open to suggestions to do something this way or that way. Sometimes there's a better way the client wasn't aware of, sometimes technology has limitations and tradeoffs need to be made, so it's good to have someone who is open to discussion

First, great post fast, can't argue with anything you said.

Just want to add to #2 - If the client isn't aware of the limitation of the technology they can't ask for trade offs and i'm sure it's very common for developers (Mainly outsourced to india +those type of country's) would rather develop what they know is fastest for them not whats best for you.

You Fast are a great developer though (i can tell) and you don't do that to your clients

 

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[healthstatus]

any recommendations books on copy health status?

Use the search feature of the forum, lots of this discussion has already taken place, and I put my 2 cents in on a couple of the threads.

 

[mememan]

I've seen heathstaus refer to using $10-$15 programmers, which got me thinking, what do you all like to pay for other outsourcing services? I've don't think I've ever seen a programmer in that range who applied to my jobs and wrote a coherent enough cover letter to warrant looking at further, but it looks like quality exists and is worth hunting down. How much should I be paying for researchers, designers, etc.?

It hurts to even read about so many guys being burned for so much money. Guys - use milestone payments. That way even if you lose, you're minimizing losses.

This wasn't with one developer, but I agree. I'm never doing hourly again. I was also using $40-$50 an hour outsourced devs which honestly, if you aren't getting results, aren't worth anything.

 

[healthstatus]

I've don't think I've ever seen a programmer in that range who applied to my jobs and wrote a coherent enough cover letter to warrant looking at further

Maybe this is part of your problem, you are hiring English majors instead of good coders.

what do you all like to pay for other outsourcing services?

You should pay what you have to pay. For some countries making $15/hour gives them a better standard of living than a US coder making $80/hour. You aren't hiring their hourly wage, you aren't hiring their cover letter. To get the best outsource guys you are hiring their history of previous work and successes, which is a key indicator as to their future production, you hire the amount of rehires from previous clients into new projects, which shows they get stuff done and can code someone else's vision.

 

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[Temerity]

I still don't understand why people here want to learn to code!

Spend that time learning to market and write sales copy. Spending 1000 hours to learn to code to spend 200 hours writing an app is STUPID.

Spend the 1000 hours learning to market and write copy, and you can use that skill for the life of the app, plus the life of the next app, and other peoples apps AND it makes you money. Writing code just means you have something, but it won't sell itself.

Here is how it will work if you learn to code:
1000 hours learning to code.
200 hours writing an app.
wait for a sale, wait some more, wait some more.
Spend 1000 hours learning to market and write copy.
sell some of your app
spend 150 hours fixing bugs and responding to support issues because your app is crap because it takes 5000 hours to really learn how to code.
get frustrated and yank your app because of the PITA factor and all the bad reviews of your app.


Learn to market and write copy:
1000 hours learning to market and write code, while that 1000 hours is going on, pay someone that has 10,000 hours of training on apps to write your app.
Start marketing your app immediately.
Sell lots of your app.
Pass any support issues to the developer
Sell lots more of your app.
Create 3 more apps and market the hell out of them
Go to the bank often to deposit checks.

Do you SEE the difference????

I understand where you are coming from. I'm a coder/web developer and I'd say that for someone like me, coding IS somewhat silly if I want to get rich. You may be affluent and influential if you are a high level programmer, like say a Linus Torvalds (who doesn't seem to be in it for the money, anyway), but never truly filthy rich.

I'd also say that programming and coding is what enabled me to create websites, which ostensibly, will be a stepping stone to getting massive wealth for me. It's also made me fluent in communicating what I want with clients. While it may not be the end game focus, it certainly has been a powerful tool in shaping what I would like to do in order to acquire wealth.

I read somewhere that employers look for basic programming skills even for "low level" employees. It can get a bit silly. There is this perception that programming is the way to financial and job security. Good for anyone who wants job security. Not me!

But yeah, I'd you are right - programming and coding is an overrated activity. You can make a respectable salary (and be someone's bitch), brag about what the array_split() function can do at conventions, but that's about it.

I'd also say that lots of folks who are programmatically minded don't have the gumption or desire to start a business. This is a broad generalization, but I think a fair one. If they are putting hundreds of hours into studying Javascript or anything else aside from business ownership, they probably aren't much of an entrepreneur, or have been misguided to believe that knowing a coding language is the practical way to make boat loads of money.

Now, off to code...

 

[Lakeview]

Since it is World Series season, I will use that as the analogy. A good team manager fills the roster to produce results. He does not take the field but finds the best he can to provide stellar results. It takes a long time for the best players to reach such a high level.

Have a great day!

 

[dknise]

Since it is World Series season, I will use that as the analogy. A good team manager fills the roster to produce results. He does not take the field but finds the best he can to provide stellar results. It takes a long time for the best players to reach such a high level.

Have a great day!

A good team manager knows how to play the game, can judge players based on their competency, and is an expert in what he is managing.

Starting a software business based business and knowing nothing about software will hardly get you to the World Series, let alone the Playoffs, or even out of the Minor Leagues.

 

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[brycer9]

Hey guys, I'm going to drop this image here that I threw together. It is a quick way you can check if a freelancer is a perfect candidate



Also, don't wait for freelancers to bid on your project. Use this link to narrow down candidates and invite them to your project: https://www.freelancer.com/freelancers/skills/Paypal_API/

 

[Lakeview]

A good team manager knows how to play the game, can judge players based on their competency, and is an expert in what he is managing.

Starting a software business based business and knowing nothing about software will hardly get you to the World Series, let alone the Playoffs, or even out of the Minor Leagues.

I thought the point was very clear. Not sure why you completely reversed it. Your twist is correct but not at all what I posted.

The subject of the original post about learning to program. You can know about software, hire a programmer and use your time building the business.

https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/showthread.php/48011-Dane-Maxwell-AMA-SaaS-Membership-Sites-Education

 

[dknise]

I thought the point was very clear. Not sure why you completely reversed it. Your twist is correct but not at all what I posted.

The subject of the original post about learning to program. You can know about software, hire a programmer and use your time building the business.

https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/showthread.php/48011-Dane-Maxwell-AMA-SaaS-Membership-Sites-Education

The thread's called "Learning to Program is STUPID" which is why I twisted it, I thought you were arguing for that point. We're in agreement then.

 

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[Lakeview]

The thread's called "Learning to Program is STUPID" which is why I twisted it, I thought you were arguing for that point. We're in agreement then.

I read your earlier posts on this. Not sure we are on the same page. :nonod: Did you see the link I posted. They did not know how to program but built successful SaaS companies.

 

[Zetta]

Thank you guys for this thread. Especially HealthStatus.

Read the whole thread from the beginning to here (took 3 days to me read it lol). "80%" was useless but there was the "20%" that was very valuable for me. Thanks for that.

Time to time the posts made me even laugh :eusa_clap:

How should I approach coding when aiming for online casino/poker site? I don´t know how to code. I know how to hire an pakistan cheap a$$ coder but that is not cut for the job I need done. And this is pretty big job for me to start learning coding in order to master/create the site on my own. Overall education, basics that is cut for what I assume I need for this? in order to work efficiently with my team of people who will create it.

where should I search for guys who have competence on creating this? Not from elance, right?
What kind of coders should I search? What area of coding should they master? What kind of team would I need? what kind of people specialities it would include?

Basic website creation team: Designer, Copywriter, Coder. But I would also need to know what kind of coders. PHP? HTML? etc... and these were just examples... I need to find the right people and position them correctly.

How should I approach this topic when I want to know how much would it cost to build these things?

What languages should the coders master etc?

I am very newbie about coding so where should I start on learning what I need in order to build online casino?

PS: I am still laughing to some of the comments you guys have written in this thread

Thanks in advance

 

[masaldana2]

there's a conference call for this by healthstatus

 

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[Zetta]

there's a conference call for this by healthstatus

I am new in the forum. I have not have time yet to even read anything about the conference call stuff, but will be looking towards those soon. I have a lot of doing in reading threads and posts that successful people have been posting here in the forum. Ty for pointing out. I know where to go.

 

[Gale4rc]

Thank you guys for this thread. Especially HealthStatus.

Read the whole thread from the beginning to here (took 3 days to me read it lol). "80%" was useless but there was the "20%" that was very valuable for me. Thanks for that.

Time to time the posts made me even laugh :eusa_clap:

How should I approach coding when aiming for online casino/poker site? I don´t know how to code. I know how to hire an pakistan cheap a$$ coder but that is not cut for the job I need done. And this is pretty big job for me to start learning coding in order to master/create the site on my own. Overall education, basics that is cut for what I assume I need for this? in order to work efficiently with my team of people who will create it.

where should I search for guys who have competence on creating this? Not from elance, right?
What kind of coders should I search? What area of coding should they master? What kind of team would I need? what kind of people specialities it would include?

Basic website creation team: Designer, Copywriter, Coder. But I would also need to know what kind of coders. PHP? HTML? etc... and these were just examples... I need to find the right people and position them correctly.

How should I approach this topic when I want to know how much would it cost to build these things?

What languages should the coders master etc?

I am very newbie about coding so where should I start on learning what I need in order to build online casino?

PS: I am still laughing to some of the comments you guys have written in this thread

Thanks in advance

I would very highly suggest getting a technical co-founder or consultant

 

[healthstatus]

Thank you guys for this thread. Especially HealthStatus.

How should I approach coding when aiming for online casino/poker site? I don´t know how to code. I know how to hire an pakistan cheap a$$ coder but that is not cut for the job I need done. And this is pretty big job for me to start learning coding in order to master/create the site on my own. Overall education, basics that is cut for what I assume I need for this? in order to work efficiently with my team of people who will create it.

Build out a MVP using something like this http://www.holdingnuts.net/, see if you can get traffic and make some money, then roll out version 2 with your big custom platform.

 

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[jeandearme]

Okay, maybe that interview will put some more light on this topic. First-hand wisdom:
http://www.secretentourage.com/success-stories/braydon-batungbacal/

 

[mememan]

Build out a MVP using something like this http://www.holdingnuts.net/, see if you can get traffic and make some money, then roll out version 2 with your big custom platform.

Absolutely. If you're just doing an informational site or promoting products in the space, see if you can get something up for $500-$1k that you can also customize easily. Actually, if it's just an informational site, see if you can build it in WordPress.

Basic website creation team: Designer, Copywriter, Coder.

Honestly, figuring out what I need is a problem. Ideally, I would like to be able to get all the design elements, themes, etc., hand them off to a programmer, and then provide my own copy. I haven't found someone like that.

 

[Zetta]

Build out a MVP using something like this http://www.holdingnuts.net/, see if you can get traffic and make some money, then roll out version 2 with your big custom platform.

thanks to you and Gale4rc.

so, what you think about this action plan?

Hire somebody from elance to build the MVP in .NET or Java platform. Or what ever platform suites to my case.
What kind of people do I need to hire for this?

I should learn some BASIC coding? Maybe code the MVP all by myself? time to time outsource if I run into something too advanced. I can relate better to co-founders because I speak some how the same language. I can recognise how skilled the co-founders really are. I would be learning along the way, starting by building the MVP. I have no clue how big project building MVP would be so no clue if I am biting too big slice. What you think? Should I learn to code? Should I build the MVP all by myself and how big project it is? I could spend 2-3h everyday for the project. Even more if I prioritise it in my to do list.

Get some traffic/players. Make some money.

Use this to attract skilled co-founder.
Am I right that most skilled co-founders demand partnering up? I would prefer just hiring somebody but seems they are too clever for that...

Build up big custom platform. Roll in. Listen all the feedback my players give. Grow. Expand. Put more games available. Start building pokersite software. Have great cashflow for years. Stack the value. Sell it away. Retire or do it again.

The site would have 1 or 2 games in the beginning. The games exists already.
People would play against each others with real money. I make money by people raking to the house. My games would not be card games at least in the beginning.

 

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[Zetta]

There is possibility to buy casino software for 100 000€. No monthly fees, No giving up%. Having full control over the casino still.

Some businesses offers software but there is royalties, ongoing fees. UGHHHHHHHH

The games have to be bought separately.

I dont know yet. reading... studying...

I would rather build everything from scratch. I would be the producer, manufacturer F*cking everything. That is the fastlane, right?

Kind of over whelmed and just wtf... Gotta keep up and understand this more so I can develop my vision and I know how to execute this casino idea. Buying casino games etc. Means just that I am not different than any other casino. In my original idea I have some games that would well be my main point to start up an online casino

 

[CommonCents]

http://venturebeat.com/2013/11/05/software-development-isnt-just-for-coders-anymore/

Software development isn’t just for coders anymore

 

[dknise]

http://venturebeat.com/2013/11/05/software-development-isnt-just-for-coders-anymore/

Software development isn’t just for coders anymore

edit: dumbest post I've seen in this thread yet.

I'm unsubscribing from this thread and declaring every last one of you heathens doomed. :smilielol:

 

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[healthstatus]

thanks to you and Gale4rc.

You are welcome!

so, what you think about this action plan?

Hire somebody from elance to build the MVP in .NET or Java platform. Or what ever platform suites to my case.
What kind of people do I need to hire for this?

I pointed you at some open source software that does what you initially described, it is ready to go, you install it on your server and start hosting games, why are you hiring people?

I should learn some BASIC coding? Maybe code the MVP all by myself? time to time outsource if I run into something too advanced. I can relate better to co-founders because I speak some how the same language. I can recognise how skilled the co-founders really are. I would be learning along the way, starting by building the MVP. I have no clue how big project building MVP would be so no clue if I am biting too big slice. What you think? Should I learn to code? Should I build the MVP all by myself and how big project it is? I could spend 2-3h everyday for the project. Even more if I prioritise it in my to do list.

REALLY?? After 17 pages of telling people that learning to program is the wrong way to start an online business, that is your question? If you spend 2-3 hours everyday learning to program in 4 years you will be a below average programmer in one or two languages, and you still won't have expertise in security, databases, traffic balancing. Anybody with a line of BS will be able to convince you that they are the best coders in the world.

Get some traffic/players. Make some money.

THIS!!!! Lots of this!!! Until this happens, nothing else is justified.

Use this to attract skilled co-founder.
Am I right that most skilled co-founders demand partnering up? I would prefer just hiring somebody but seems they are too clever for that...

Yep!

Build up big custom platform. Roll in. Listen all the feedback my players give. Grow. Expand. Put more games available. Start building pokersite software. Have great cashflow for years. Stack the value. Sell it away. Retire or do it again.

The site would have 1 or 2 games in the beginning. The games exists already.
People would play against each others with real money. I make money by people raking to the house. My games would not be card games at least in the beginning.

Keep us updated on your progress....

 

[healthstatus]

http://venturebeat.com/2013/11/05/software-development-isnt-just-for-coders-anymore/

Software development isn’t just for coders anymore

This person ate two boxes of stupid before writing that.

The promise of program writing programs has been around since the 60's (just like me). What you end up with are things like Excel, and Microsoft Access, where you can create something that does what you want, but not on a large or easily supportable scale. There are also things like the Unity engine for creating games, but those are just frameworks, you still need coding skills if the feature you want to provide is not in the engine. The thing they don't take into account is progress. New devices, new input capabilities, new design concepts, so a program like this that was written 5-6 years ago, would not take into account mobile devices, mobile screen sizes, the need to communicate via cellular or wifi or blue-tooth.

 

[F430]

I gotta say I think this is one of the most interesting threads on this forum. Health you make seriously valid points.

In the end I feel that it really depends on the person and the situation- if someone would love to learn programming anyway --> go ahead, if not, you will find a way (cheesy as that might sound) if you really want it.

This is what I would do, Im no expert though, I failed in business twice but Im in my early twenties, sharp, and business driven. Would be great to hear what you guys think (not trying to hijack the thread)

1). Do SERIOUS market research- both quantitative & qualitative, do it in the field, in theory, and talk with potential customers/your target group
2). Focus on solving a serious problem/problems that emerge from your research.
3). Develop a solid business model.
4). Develop an even stronger marketing strategy/branding strategy.
5). Create the basic concept- if you can't program then draw it out, do research on features and possibilities that are within reach
6). Outsource the project in the following way:
-call up a friend/acquaintance and buy him lunch/dinner letting him know upfront you'd like to pick his brain
-explain your concept, ask for his advice and technical savvy
-use HIS knowledge combined with your own critical eye to look good programmers who can create a safe prototype.
7). Create a BIG launching campaign.
8). Reiterate/adjust/tweak the business model/your general approach asap based on how the market is responding
9). Do this until you have a solid baseline of users/customers but even more important REVENUE on a consistent basis.
10. Use these facts to solidify your case when looking for capital to go full-bore whether that would be via crowfunding/the bank/an angel investor
11). Meanwhile live like a spartan and learn as much as you can about BUILDING A BUSINESS and solving NEEDS and PROBLEMS while you are building your business


am I a fool for thinking that this approach could be valid?

 

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[exige]

This person ate two boxes of stupid before writing that.

The promise of program writing programs has been around since the 60's (just like me). What you end up with are things like Excel, and Microsoft Access, where you can create something that does what you want, but not on a large or easily supportable scale. There are also things like the Unity engine for creating games, but those are just frameworks, you still need coding skills if the feature you want to provide is not in the engine. The thing they don't take into account is progress. New devices, new input capabilities, new design concepts, so a program like this that was written 5-6 years ago, would not take into account mobile devices, mobile screen sizes, the need to communicate via cellular or wifi or blue-tooth.

People have indeed been trying to build the magical unicorn for a long time, but I think Decisions is closer to SharePoint+InfoPath, which has been wildly popular. But just like with SharePoint you still wind up needing specialized resources to add capabilities that don't exist out of the box (or live with the limitations of the platform). I think they've built a neat platform, but they've got a long road to hoe to gain adoption in the enterprise, its hard enough selling mainstream cloud to CIOs.

I will say they have a pretty creative angle to planting their weed in IT and land-and-expand, by going after TechOps/runbook automation etc. they are pretty clearly trying to get into IT through the back door and win the hearts and minds of the operations folks. If they can capture budget they may carve out a nice niche for themselves. Some great out-of-the-box thinking.

That said, on the topic of this thread even though I am a techie I still recognize that building software is just skilled labor. You don't need to be the labor to build a great business. Better off learning sales and business development offline and online, it will carry you much further. If you want to learn how to do the implementation to save money that's fine, but if you're the executive building and running your company you don't need to know those details. You need to set the vision, execute, and organize the resources to get it done. Focus on what is the most effective use of your time.

 

[Mexanik]

Well, first of all, I do agree with the statement to some degree. If you hope that you will learn programming from scratch to the extent of coding your high-tech product (of course, if it isn't a static website that requires minimal knowledge to edit some template) you don't have any idea how difficult it is to get into account every single probability/bugs/security threats. It have to be done by someone who really knows what he's doing!

That being said, at some point in past I outsourced coding to some Indian company and Ow God, it would have been a lot easier and faster if I did it myself. You have to select very wisely and have as much control over them as possible.