Occupy Wallstreet Thoughts

[kwerner]

Let's be honest, the system that wrings 40-80 hour work weeks out of the typical worker in return for...

You know, in my opinion, the greatest thing about the Declaration of Independence is this little line right here:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."


Note in particular the two words LIBERTY and PURSUIT...

LIBERTY |ˈlibərtē|
noun ( pl. -ties)
1. the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views

PURSUIT |pərˈsoōt|
noun
1. the action of following or pursuing someone or something


Here in America, people have the CHOICE of what they want to DO with their lives - that is LIBERTY and PURSUIT. They are not FORCED to work the 40-80 hour work weeks like you mentioned above. It is THEIR CHOICE.

So blaming "the system that wrings 40-80 hour work weeks out of the typical worker" for someone's lack of vacation time, health coverage, retirement, et cetra is, in my opinion, really just an EXCUSE. The company they went to work for didn't put a gun to their head and say you will work for me or DIE. No. It was their choice. A series of choices led to what has become of their life.


You know, I tried to look up one last word (phrase) in the dictionary, "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY", but it wasn't there. ...Maybe it's a sign of the times.

 

[The-J]

my $.02 (because that's all i can afford):

although people don't necessarily know what they are fighting for or what they are mad about, all they know is that they are mad. just like RussH said: they are angry and they will take it to the streets.

it's funny: this isn't the first time this has happened. people learn the lesson by the lesson and not by the instructional method. people are mad at something, but why can't people learn that history repeats itself? most people who were struck by this were uninformed. not only were they uninformed, most of them did nothing to appease their personal situation. i think the real lesson here is to know what's going on and make sure whatever happens affects you, your family and your loved ones as little as possible. if you look at every revolution, it started because someone with a powerful voice told the people what they wanted to hear. times were bad and people needed to change them. so the leader would say 'come change the situation with me!' and from there, the situation changed. revolutions are great but very dangerous. they can go either way. for example, the tsarist system in russia worked for hundreds of years. soviet socialism worked for ~70 years. the project was a failure.

what people really need to learn is how to know what is making you mad so a batshit crazy, yet charismatic person doesn't lead you to believe things that aren't always necessarily true. take hitler for example. he told the people that the jews, communism and imperialism were the reason for the bad economy. so he got the people to be against those things (among others). he started, fought in, and lost a war in which over tens of millions of people died. i want to make my situation better by having control of my cashflow and keeping tabs on it as much as possible. i want to help others by creating a system they can benefit from.

occupy wall street people are in debt, have families and no jobs (or many jobs that do not pay them enough). they lost their original skilled jobs, their degree is worthless, their houses were taken away and their standard of living dropped tremendously. there is not ideological thinking behind it: people are F*cking pissed. their lives were, in effect, ruined. they have the right to be mad. sure, they made bad decisions, but they aren't the only ones. this gives them a reason to be mad.

they are pissed at the banks for taking their homes, they are pissed at the corporations for lobbying for unsafe and non-beneficial laws and acts. they are pissed at politicians for allowing the corporations to get away with taking people's money, people's jobs and people's health. they are pissed at obama for not fixing anything. they are pissed at their bosses for giving them the news of their firing, even though their boss was let go 2 months later. they are pissed at their alma mater for taking their money and giving them no certain future in return, like they wanted. their life plan failed. let's be real: that F*cking sucks.

i am a university student. all my friends want to have so-and-so job and they believe their job is recession proof. i want o be an entrepreneur and they tell me "you're going to fail because you won't get enough start-up money. you're going to fail because you don't have the experience." and things of that nature. they want me to fail. they want me to be wrong so they can pretend that they are exceptional for landing a good job and somehow being able to keep it. they believe their college tuition will be paid quickly. i hope for their sake that they are right about their jobs.

but still, they don't understand about the volatility of the job market. art school kids joke about being broke after college then striking it big. finance kids quote the numbers "98% of students land a job OR go to grad school after graduation" and say that they are fine. what happens when the banks get into some real trouble with the government and their deals with foreign banks? what happens when they can't make their money back on foreclosures? their jobs go kaput.

they don't know what control means. they don't know how to use their money to make them money. even investment bankers who make $150k a year don't know how to use their money to invest. it's sad.

tl;dr people need to become more informed and know where their choices may lead them down the line. people need to learn to recognize patterns that they were taught in macroeconomics and history class. and last but not least, people need to be prepared to change their situation if need be.

wow why did i write so much lol and i apologize for the strong language: i think it accentuates the fear and anger of the people.

 

[Russ H]

I'd like you all to consider something completely different from what has been discussed/proposed so far.

Most of you do not remember the last time we had a big recession (the 1970s). It sucked. All of a sudden (it seemed), OPEC jacked up oil prices, and we had gas shortages (and crazy high gas prices).

All of a sudden, people started buying more Japanese cars, b/c they ran on HALF as much gas.

This caused even MORE recession in the auto industry at the time.

In the midst of all this, a movie called Network came out. At the time, it was a radical, ground-breaking film. This was back in the day when Walter Cronkite did the evening news-- a calm, statesmanlike individual who was classy, informed, and presented the news in a straightforward and unbiased manner.

This was before the days of reality TV.

It was before MTV, music videos, viral *anything*.

*************

Whenever times get tough, people get mad. This has happened throughout history. People are frustrated that their lives are not going well. They don't know WHO to blame (the oil folks? politicians? rich people? corporations?), so they just GET MAD.

I think that's what's happening w/occupy wall street. People have been getting mad/frustrated for the past few years, and this is an outpouring of that frustration.

I don't think there is a central focus. I don't think there needs to be one (except for analyzers, like on this thread, or news reporters, who are trying to make sense of things).

Try NOT to make sense of this.

Try to look at as this: Lots of people, all over the world, are mad and frustrated right now.

Each person has their own reasons for being this way-- maybe they lost their job, or their house, or they're working 3 dead-end sh*t jobs now instead of the one great six-figure job they had 4 years ago.

Whatever the reason, they're mad as hell. And they're not gonna take it anymore.

So they protest.

Take a look at this video, made back in the 1970s. In many ways, it echoes the same sentiment:

[video=youtube;dib2-HBsF08]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dib2-HBsF08[/video]

*********

So, instead of trying to make sense of this-- don't.

Look at it, instead, as a bunch of folks who are mad/frustrated/want a change for the better.

Do they have a cohesive idea on what to change, and how to change it?

Nope.

They're just mad, and frustrated.

I'm totally not trying to belittle this movement.

I think it's significant, and a very, very important indicator of what's happening in our society/economy right now.

So don't ignore it.

But don't go nuts trying to figure out the intricacies of it.

It's not that complicated.

In a nutshell:

Times are tough.

People are fed up/frustrated.

And they're taking it to the streets.

That's it.

-Russ H

 

[GlobalWealth]

if you are making 50billion/million dollars a year, giving 1% or evn 10% to a good cause or to help someone/society in some way then you should do it and I dont think its unreasonable to expect it.

You comment 'should' is pretty subjective here. Keep in mind if you are making $50m per year, then you must be doing something very right and you aren't doing it alone.

You have hired workers, investing in real estate, bought assets, outsourced business processes, etc. All of these activities create jobs, which increases economic productivity. By the act of becoming wealthy, you have already given to that good cause by improving the lives of others.

Had you given $5m per year to a charity, at least 30% of the money (in most cases, sometime much higher) is wasted on administrative costs, high salaries for non-profit CEO's, etc. By and large, charity on a large scale is a destroyer of wealth and economic activity.

Personal charity on the other hand can be very good. If you know a family who is down on their luck, go out and buy their kids christmas presents this year. Buy them a turkey for thanksgiving. If you really want to be charitable, offer them some work - even if it is menial work like washing windows or cleaning the car and let them work for the money.

But the best thing the businessperson earning $50m per year can do it reinvest in his business and other assets which will ultimately lead to more jobs.

there needs to be programs like welfare and social security and disability and things like that(not run the way they are run now tho lol) not becauase its expected of us to provide it for them but because its the right thing to do.

I don't agree 100% that we need these programs. Your statement 'its the right thing to do' suggests you have the capacity to dictate your morality on other people. The US didn't have a welfare or SS system until about 80 years ago. The rest of the world followed the US lead after that by instituting similar systems. Even today not all countries offer such program, ie. China.

However, as you stated, if we are going to have these programs, they need to be run much differently - here I agree. For example, New Zealand and Chile have privatized their SS system many years ago and have had much success. It has lowered the tax rates there and the private pension system has generated returns vastly superior to the US SSA.

 

[Finance]

Not that I've read all 10 pages of this (I read about three), but I have read "The Millionaire Fastlane " and I do believe in the principles DeMarco espoused and it all boils down to one thing: Taking responsibility.

---------------------------------------

Life isn't just fair, it's brutally fair. It rewards the crafty and most tenacious, those who have their hands out will always lose them to those who are putting their hands to work. You can't change the system, because the system is nature itself.


Wealth, power, influence... Whatever you want to call it--it will always gravitate to the most cunning and forceful.


So if you don't like it, change... Because nature isn't going to change for you.

 

[G_Alexander]

Damn bank...always lending me money for things.

And now I have to pay it back??? WHAAA??? GAAHHHHDDD!!! This is outrageous! Somebody call the fire department!

 

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[Ref Fugee]

I'm in the 1%. I support OWS.

I don't want to live in a society where the income inequality rivals Uganda, Cameroon, Rwanda, and China. Here's the link: Map: U.S. Ranks Near Bottom on Income Inequality - Max Fisher - International - The Atlantic

OWS may have its wackos, but the gist of the movement is that rich bankers have crashed the system and swayed public policies toward its enrichment, and have not paid the price. Wall Street continues to unduly influence Washington at the expense of the middle class. These protesters don't want class warfare, they don't want handouts, they're not hating on Mark Zuckerberg or the Google founders. Things didn't start out with Occupy Silicon Valley or Sun Valley.

There has always been rich people and poor people in the US. This is not news. But American have not protested others' wealth in the past because the playing field historically have been fairly even. Now, it's out of hand with blatant market manipulation and thievery by Wall Street bankers. Yet many here are applauding that and demonizing the protesters. Makes no F*cking sense. Jamie Dimon borrows money at zero percent from the Federal Reserve, loans it out at 4% for a mortgage, and he's the hero and the college student without the job and the $40K in loans is the punk?

But, but, but these protesters are leeches who expect something for nothing! Well, what exactly is Goldman Sachs doing when they borrow at zero percent and loan it out at 5%? Pee-wee Herman can execute that trade. Can you or I borrow at 0%?

Unequal societies lead to unstable societies. We don't exist in vacuums. As inequality grows, society's well being suffers. Crime, low life expectancy, illiteracy, violence, mental illnesses are all correlates of a shitty society. And we want to be that way, and live in such a place, why?

 

[365]

Glad I don't live on Wall St. anymore. Heard it was a real hassle for residents in the beginning (though I think the cops forced the protesters to move down a few blocks).

 

[Pete799p]

SHHDlove I agree. I think they might be hoping that wall street will give them another handout since protesting is easier then entrepreneurship.

It comes down to the fact that somebody else is always at fault :smxB:. 99% of people will do everything in there power to not take responsibility for their action, situation, even health.

 

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[77startup]

From what I've seen so far it's a bunch of misguided young people that just don't understand the way life works mixed in with a few nutjobs that just want to yell at something. I was handed one of their rally forms today as I made my rounds.

 

[Z5 FILMS]

They are just a bunch of clueless hippie kids that know nothing.

This about sums it up.......TOTALLY CLUELESS.

[video=youtube;SfwTK0BBrV8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfwTK0BBrV8[/video]


PS: sorry, you can't get your 1.5 minutes back : ) it is comedy gold though.

 

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[Likwid24]

They are just a bunch of clueless hippie kids that know nothing.

That's exactly what it is. A bunch of young college hippies that have nothing better to do with their life. They are brainwashed in college then sent out into the world without a clue. Most of them don't even understand why their there. Living in NY, I see a lot of the B S protesting. It gets them no where. All it accomplishes is disrupting the lives of the honest tax paying citizens of the city. These bums need to get JOBS!

 

[CarrieW]

I have to say I disagree with many of the people posting in this thread! this is america ffs.

for 1 that gives them the right to protest anything they want to!

I may not agree with everything they think I do believe in the right to say whats on your mind.

I dont even know what else to say but wow.

Just because you want to dismiss them as brainwashed hippies doesnt mean that you are right and they are wrong.

I cant even go on for fear I will get banned.

 

[Ska2free]

I'm going to have to disagree...I am kind of proud of those kids for being there. Let's be honest, the system that wrings 40-80 hour work weeks out of the typical worker in return for paltry vacation time, insufficient health coverage for most, and a retirement investment system that may keep pace with inflation if they are lucky...I think that's what they are angry about. And isn't disenchantment with that system that brought all of us to MJ's book?

I certainly think a more active approach, as most here are interested in, is a better answer for those suited to it. But the majority are not, and I don't think it has to be that folks on the slow lane must be doomed to corporate servitude...we live in a country where we can (if enough people want to) force societal change. Even if the protest may be more event than process, at least they are taking some action and not sitting on their butt watching tv. And it could (maybe) lead to real change. I think giving corporations less power over politicians is a good goal, even as a business person.

Are they clueless rich college kids? Maybe. But so were lots of equal rights and antiwar protesters in the past. They have the luxury of time to protest and education to know things could improve. The people that could benefit from stock market reforms that protect 401k participants or low income parents of students who could benefit from student loan reform...they are too busy working to do it themselves, and should be grateful.

 

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[MediaMonty]

I agree that they have all the right to protest on the streets.

Will it amount to anything besides wasted effort? Nope. They way they protest and what they're protesting for is just ridiculous and absurd, nobody else besides themselves would take them seriously.

I looked at their list of demands:

Proposed List Of Demands For Occupy Wall St Movement! | OccupyWallSt.org Forum

and I can tell that these people have zero idea on how the real world works. They basically want everything given to them.

Free eduaction? Why don't people just learn to go to community college instead?

Debt forgiveness and abolishing of credit agencies? Are you kidding me? If somebody piles on a massive amount of debt that they can't get out of, it's their fault, and their responsibility to fix it.

 

[77startup]

Honestly I don't see how anyone who isn't pro socialism or pro communism can seriously support their movement and Idea's when they really sit down and think about it carefully.What they are demanding simply isn't possible without doing away with capitalism.

I'm all for their right to protest but imho this is no different from fat people arguing that getting fat should be impossible and we should all have free government sponsored personal trainers, free weight loss surgery, and an unending supply of 0 calorie chocolate, chips, and icecream.

 

[Rickson9]

I think that this kind of discontent stems from the widening gap between the haves and have nots. This needs to be addressed in a meaningful way or our society is doomed to experience the consequences of the past.

 

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[SHHDlove]

Glad to see people are actually talking about this. I don't agree with anything these people are doing, but at the same time, I have a very good friend who is actively participating in these protests. I think it's misguided, but he has a good heart, so I know he's in it for the right reasons, whatever they may be.

 

[Z5 FILMS]

The problem with the protest is it's unorganized and they are not united with one or two agendas. It's a big mash up, and what one protester of for, the person next to them against and I think a large portion are there just to make noise but don't really know why they are there. I have seen a few videos where people are 100% pro Obama and say they will do everything to make sure he gets reelected. WHAT???? Where do they think Obama gets his campaign money from? He gets it from the very corporations these people are protesting against.

They are so clueless that's it embarrassing.


They need to pick one or two things to protest. Like "no more fat bonuses for companies that got bailouts", and stick with it. Right now nobody is on the same page and they are just making noise.

 

[Jonleehacker]

They need to pick one or two things to protest. Like "no more fat bonuses for companies that got bailouts", and stick with it. Right now nobody is on the same page and they are just making noise.

Exactly.

I do believe they are on target with the largest problem in our current society. If I was king, I would force the banks to privatize. The current incentive system is of private profits and public losses from the banks encourages all sorts of actions by banks that are completely in alignment with their current incentive environment and almost completely destructive for society as a whole.

Trying to regulate and fix their actions is pointless, the only why to change anything is to change the incentive system that is creating the problem, so yes, the protesters are intuitively right on target, but like you said, they are clueless and it's not likely anyone with any real sense is going to straighten them out.

 

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[Likwid24]

I'm starting OPERATION OCCUPY MIAMI BEACH. Who's with me! I'm protesting whatever dude! Meet me on the beach @ Ocean ave and 8th street!

 

[Komelika]

I have to say I disagree with many of the people posting in this thread! this is america ffs.

for 1 that gives them the right to protest anything they want to!

I may not agree with everything they think I do believe in the right to say whats on your mind.

I dont even know what else to say but wow.

Just because you want to dismiss them as brainwashed hippies doesnt mean that you are right and they are wrong.

I cant even go on for fear I will get banned.

You sound a little hypocritical. They have the right to say what they want and they are, but it doesn't make them right. We have a right to see their obvious flaws and chat about what we think. We aren't out there billy clubbing them over the head and telling them to STFU or anything.

While some of the people may have valid points and chose to protest, it is usually the nut jobs that make the news. Particularly if the news organizations are against the cause of the protestors. What better way to debunk their argument than to showcase the idiots in the crowd. Regardless, it seems to me like a shitload of victims playing the part.

 

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[DeletedUser397]

Occupy Washington D.C., not Wall street

First off, I'm glad we live in a free country where people can voice their opinion and protest. It's nice to see that people are willing to stand up for what they believe in. And while the protesters are quite misguided in their efforts, it good that people are waking up and taking action.

Unfortunately, they're directing their action at the wrong entity. Sure, they're upset about the disparity in social classes - but getting angry at corporations and demanding wealth distribution goes against the nature of free economy and entrepreneurship.

These protestors are blaming Wall street, when they should be blaming government involvement in the economy. It's the government that's handing cash rewards to failing corporations and banks with tax payer money. Rather than allow the failing companies to go bankrupt, and allowing a new economy to rise, they're getting falsely propped up. The economy is like a drug addict. Every time he's about to hit rock bottom, he takes another hit of drugs, just like the way the government bails out the economy, not allowing it to completely hit rock bottom. Well that can't keep going on forever, and it will make the rock bottom scenario much worse if you keep on prolonging its arrival.

What these protestors need to understand is that the 1% of wealthy are also the ones who provide the most jobs to society. And the reason they haven't been able to provide as much jobs is due to government regulations, taxes, and more meddling in the free markets. And where do these regulations come from? Ironically, a lot of them come from unions, which demand 'workers rights' such as benefits, workers comp, unemployment rights, healthcare, and so on, which in turn makes it that much harder for companies to actually hire people. Unions are a huge part of the problem. It's honestly no wonder companies are fleeing overseas to avoid bankruptcy.

Lastly, I find it hard to empathize with people that play both sides of the coin. On the one hand, they blame Wall street and large corporations, yet they eat at McDonald's, pump gas at Exxon, hold money at Bank of America, buy from Walmart, talk to customer service in India, etc. all the while complaining about outsourcing and large corporations. You can't enjoy the fruits of these corporations while hating on them. You can't complain about high prices, then demand that companies provide more benefits to employees and not pollute the environment, etc. yet continue hiring more people.

It's just that most average people don't understand the basics of economics and government involvement. If these protesters took a simple course on Micro and Macro economics, I think their direction could be much different. As I first said, nothing against them, more power to them, but I think they should wake up a little bit more and use their energy towards a better cause. I think the cause should be "Occupy Washington", not Wall street.

 

[Bozigian]

[video=youtube;ZFZrNSa3b8g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFZrNSa3b8g[/video]
[video=youtube;J0cp_DyfiRU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0cp_DyfiRU&feature=related[/video]
[video=youtube;WvG2KQIdjLA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvG2KQIdjLA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL[/video]

 

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[Kak]

I have to say I disagree with many of the people posting in this thread! this is america ffs.

for 1 that gives them the right to protest anything they want to!

I may not agree with everything they think I do believe in the right to say whats on your mind.

I dont even know what else to say but wow.

Just because you want to dismiss them as brainwashed hippies doesnt mean that you are right and they are wrong.

I cant even go on for fear I will get banned.

I think it is funny that people that agree with OWS are the first to tout Americanism. That they have the right to protest whatever they want and scold the rest of us for making fun of them for being mindless hippies. Isn't that my right to disagree with them and or make fun of them? Hypocrites.

America= freedom, liberty, capitalism.

OWS= socialism, equality at the expense of liberty and freedom.

 

[Kak]

I think we fastlaners subscribe to a different kind of politics than others. Correct me if im wrong but:

We are very capitalistic, yet we don't subscribe to the break your back to make a dollar traditional conservative work ethic where you get good grades, get into a good college and try to get a "good" job; instead we make money work for us. We are more liberal when it comes to debt and leverage for our own gains, we do not believe that personal debt is evil. Yet we appreciate the value of hard work and smart financial decisions while on the fastlane, and do not expect the government to subsidize our lives and we do not appreciate redistributive government policy or burdening regulation. We believe in the ability to take control of our own lives and think that these people should do the same instead of sitting around waiting to be told what to do.

 

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[Rickson9]

Most of you do not remember the last time we had a big recession (the 1970s). It sucked. All of a sudden (it seemed), OPEC jacked up oil prices, and we had gas shortages (and crazy high gas prices).

Those were good times. Easiest time (aside from right now) to become a millionaire.

"1973: Stock prices begin to drop; Warren Buffett is euphoric despite his personal worth dropping by 50%. Buffett goes on a buying spree."

 

[Rem]

What is strange is that this American protest on Wall Street was instigated by a Canadian activist group. I understand people wanting to protest against corporate greed, etc, but this isn't really what it's about unfortunately. This is more of a means to an end. If you follow the money trail you see that this Canadian activist group is financially supported by George Soros, The American Communist Party, The American Socialist Party, and many other radical groups that scream economic inequality. Kind of strange about the timing of all this, where Obama tried to get Congress to pass a bill sucking the wealth out of Millionaires and Billionaires to help foot the bill for America's habit of overspending and mismanaging the people's money.

This is an aim to divide the American people by trying to make those with money look bad. This alleviates pressure from the government as being the root of the problem, and points to those millionaires and billionaires as taking away everyone's wealth.

For a president to give a "shout out" and support this group is also a red flag. I am not opposed to protesting, I just am opposed to what the protestors stand for.

 

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[CarrieW]

what your suggesting (at least to me) that people( that is every single person who works or is capable of working) is capable of becomming a successful business person. totally untrue.

most people "need" jobs. jobs arent a luxury that you can just do without. people need a place to live and food to eat and clothes to wear healthcare ect ect I could go on and on.

back to the parent thing I essentially agreed with what you just posted about their investments and how they could have done things differently. but see the thing with that is also the fact that they didnt go and open a brokerage account and day trade stocks or something. they used a company sponsored employer matched 401k. they have pensions from working. they have savings and properties and they wont be eating cat food. even if you do learn about investing theres no guarantee(never is for anything) and most people who hold jobs and build businesses still contribute to their employer matched 401k's to the max every year.

they both understand they are retiring at a down turn in the market, they will be ok, so they couldnt have been that far off the mark because they didnt lose everything and can still retire. even if its not the retirement they envisioned 10 yrs ago when the economy was still good.


so how is someone who was taught as they were taught and worked as they worked even supposed to know they needed more education. they watched it work over and over again for their parents and their peers parents. you work you retire and then u die. noone told them any different. untill recently if you tried to the men in the little white jakets would come take you away.

someone who was working for a good solid company for 20 yrs who got laid off because of the bad economy did something wrong for working? i dont exactly grasp the thinking behind what you posted. theres no way to know whats going to happen 10-20-30- or even 50 yrs down the road.

I hope every decision you make leads you to where you want to be. and that nothing unexpected ever happens in your life, but knowing what I know I have a feeling that the universe will put you back into your place without my help.

 

[Anon3587x]

Somebody who doesn't make a significant amount of money through their own efforts, has no right to tell (or even suggest) to other people who do make significant amounts how they should be spending THEIR money.