If You Work Remote at a Job, Listen To This Advice.

[ZackerySprague]

I wanted to come on here to say Thank you all for all your comments. All replies have awesome viewpoints and feedback.

Thank you for taking the time out of your day to post. I hope you guys have a good weekend .

 

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[Johnny boy]

Your job is to maximize and further your personal goals.

Your employers job is to maximize and further their goals.

Usually you both meet in the middle where you’re both slightly annoyed.

1. They have to pay you (bummer for them)
2. And you have to work (bummer for you)

They have every right to sit around and think “what is the best way to maximize profits for our shareholders”.

In fact, they have an obligation to!

You have every right to sit around and think “what is the best way to further my own personal goals at this job?”

Do it for your shareholders.

YOU INC.
Shareholders: You: 100% ownership.

They are the cat. You are the mouse. Their job’s to be the cat in this game. Your job’s to be the mouse in this game.

So you collect a paycheck, work entirely on your own thing as much as you can get away with, and see how long you can go without getting fired.

Build your business, be selfish, and be wise enough to catch any mice smart enough to do it to you when the roles reverse.

It’s just part of the game.

 

[Matt Sun]

I'm at a job, had a task that took me 3 hours to do. Then I developed a python script and did the exact same task in 1 minute. Then I automated another such task... My coworkers ? Stuck in repetitive hell, the smart ones trying to gain an edge by their own skills.

Is it immoral for me to use time for my Sass when I'm 10x more productive in 1/10 of the time ? I even could use the new skills I get learning Sass to add value in other parts of the company (which I intend to do).

To me "the boss" === the customer, I don't really see any difference. If he's happy with the results, does he really care how I provide them ? (as long as it's legal of course)

If you have two 1 million dollar houses and they are exactly the same quality do you really care if they took 3 years or 3 days to build ? What if the 3 day house is even better ?

Of course you'd like to pay less, or get more houses because the worker is so skillful or so fast but that is not how market forces work.

Of course this is very industry / skill relative.

 

[ZackerySprague]

How you do one thing is how you do everything.

I’m an employer and give flexibility to my staff to work however and wherever they want. Years ago I was also an employee. My entrepreneurial life has been the ultimate hack - I worked harder than anyone as employee to learn the ropes and then start my own business in the industry.

Now as an employer, you nailed - I know when my staff aren't delivering value and they get fired fast. But that's not even that big of a deal.

The number one (#1) reason this whole thread is SHIT advice is this:

YOU are cheating YOURSELF. You think you are carving out time from your employer, but you aren't. You are trying to multitask - translation, you are going two things poorly. Entrepreneurship is about excellence. You fail at both your job and whatever "business" you think you are building. 3 years later @ZackerySprague you'll be back here posting another thread how you could have and would have...

Stop.

Just stop.

Do the work you got exceptionally well. Finish it. Then you are on your own time - go after building your own thing, side hustle. Uninterrupted. Disciplined. Become excellent at everything you touch and watch the world start helping you.

You don't need an L-Desk and a separate computer! You just need finish the work, stop and start working on your own. Your employer will promote you, and you'll leave anyways.

This is really good advice.

 

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[Antifragile]

@ZackerySprague - I’d love to see you create a company, employ many people and come back to this thread to explain how you feel about your own advice… write yourself a letter to be opened 10 years from today!

What a popular thread! There seems to be 3 types of replies:

• 1. Agree with the advice

Typically employees who are seeking an out. Typically overworked, feel underpaid. They definitely want someone to blame because they work, meaning "hey, I am not some lazy shmuck, I work hard!" type of crowd. They seek something better but lack the vision on "how". Typically feel that they already work hard and are good performers, better than the majority.

This group blames corporate America for inefficiencies within their organizations. They clearly see a "us - entrepreneurs" vs "them - employers", a difference without distinction!

This working group sees other employees/colleagues as sheep! After all, they are the enlightened ones, they read a book and are working on a business. They miss the part where same co-workers can be their ticket for success...

They rarely get a break from "life". Grinding with little to show for it is the hardest work there is, it's tiring and frustrating. I feel for these folks, as I used to be one of you!

• 2. Disagree with the advice

Typically those who have a business and/or are stubborn about self-development / growth.

In a knowledge economy, employers bend over backwards to hire and retain best employees. People in this category know that employees who act like entrepreneurs "intra-preneurs" of any organization deliver 10x of the "good review" employee that's "doing their job". They add insane value to the bottom line. 80/20 principle applies here.

This group understands how the brain works and can see 2nd and 3rd order consequences. Meaning:

• There is no such thing as "multitasking", it's just switching between tasks. And focused work is gone when you do that.
• No matter what you do for a job, there is huge energy in creating valuable things - in adding value. You are never exhausted after a day where you had everything to do and you've done it. There is an energy that comes with achieving things. When you try to do "my job description" it's way harder and more tiring.
• If you are working and getting promotions, it's a great test for how you may be as an entrepreneur because business is way harder than anything you've done before.

Yes, that's key here, so I'll repeat. It's the people who recognize that the best test of your ability to add value to the world (core of entrepreneurship?!) is by doing it in a low risk environment, like a job or a side hustle...

Jobs are fertile ground for innovation, becoming an "intra-preneur" means being unafraid to get fired because you can't get fired. Your value is so high that employers give ... whatever you ask.

It's not about my story, it's a general framework. Stories are just to illustrate how it works in the real life. And there are plenty.

• 3. It depends

Sure, almost everything can be put into this category. Technically this is the most "correct" answer, but IMO it's useless in this day and age. There are fewer and fewer jobs that require just a warm body. Even security work is getting replaced with technology... sure, these "you just have to sit here all day" jobs exist, but they pay very little and there are fewer of them out there. It's less viable of an option IMO and there are better alternatives.


****
Even the recently popular for this forum "car detailing" businesses that keep popping up can make money faster than a "security job" so you can focus on building your own business.

Some jobs can provide a "playground".

Say you are in tech space, being close to those who build can be the difference between success and failure.

Why do it alone when you can have support? That's why you keep seeing clusters of businesses geographically - people meet people. People get better concepts, ideas, better execution support etc.

Face to face isn't dead. In fact, it's thriving.


Good luck.

edit:

I'm at a job, had a task that took me 3 hours to do. Then I developed a python script and did the exact same task in 1 minute. Then I automated another such task... My coworkers ? Stuck in repetitive hell, the smart ones trying to gain an edge by their own skills.

Is it immoral for me to use time for my Sass when I'm 10x more productive in 1/10 of the time ? I even could use the new skills I get learning Sass to add value in other parts of the company (which I intend to do).

To me "the boss" === the customer, I don't really see any difference. If he's happy with the results, does he really care how I provide them ? (as long as it's legal of course)

If you have two 1 million dollar houses and they are exactly the same quality do you really care if they took 3 years or 3 days to build ? What if the 3 day house is even better ?

Of course you'd like to pay less, or get more houses because the worker is so skillful or so fast but that is not how market forces work.

Of course this is very industry / skill relative.

Great job man! That just means you are 10x more likely to succeed in building your own business.

A friend of mine did something similar. He make his job so much easier by building tools on his own.

Before it got bigger, he went back to his employer and asked "do you want to pay for developing this software further, it improves the work by 4x to 10x". Employer said "no".

Do you mind if I create it and pay for it on my own, I'll own it and only I will use it to make my work more efficient. "Sure!". They amended the employment agreement to make it clear that was all up and up (legally).

Then it got tricky, his own software was getting so good that it was a business inside a business. He realized that he could become a rival to his employer!

We were having a dinner one day and brainstorming... what's the right next move? He was very smart, he went back to the employer and explained how much better it turned out, he automated more than half of the work! Then he offered his employer an option to now buy his software!!!

It went up the international corporate ranks (huge company)... and came back down "no".

He quit, started his own firm and attracted a dozen staff from the same shop because they could now work less for more money! He's crushing it right now. To me this is the inspiration behind not separating things that are potentially related. Jobs and companies that are inefficient are the fertile ground for real entrepreneurs to take over.

 

[MarxMelencio]

@ZackerySprague,

[SNIP]
If you work remotely for someone at a job, take advantage of that time.
[SNIP]

Well I'd say this a little bit differently.
• I'd phrase this as:
** Use that newfound time and energy on stuff for your personal, professional, and creative growth.

Now what I'm looking at here is, the time and energy that I start saving from a remote work arrangement.
• Not the time and energy that I already commited to my role in my employer's business.
• And what I save's mine to invest, in whatever I please.
** I mean, imagine the time and energy that you save from no-prep-time-for-commute plus no-commute.

Here's a quick anecdote of the time I got my first job and went remote a few months thereafter:

In 2004, what I did at my first job was to develop a mutually beneficial proposition. After 8 weeks of starting.
• I then delivered it to the key decision-maker of the company.
** My proposition was for changing my contract to a subcontractual arrangement; for me to work remotely; for me to build a team of peers; and for me to handle bulk tasks booked by the company.

And my pitch was like, "Here's what you gain, what you lose, what shakes out, and the sustainable value of it all for the company".
• And that's what worked for my particular situation. That was 2004. That was a year after I became totally blind, permanently.
** I was working as an SEO content writer at a creative labor outsourcing company in Manila, focusing on consumer tech and hobbyist electronics. We had daily and weekly quotas. That was my first job.

What happened then was a mutually beneficial partnership between my former employer's company, and the remote team that I was building as my business.
• The remote team that I formed from a spare bedroom with a couple of Core 2 Duo PCs on dialup Internet scaled from 4 full timers to 140, in barely a year.
** We also expanded to niche creative labor industries, in less than 5. And we localized across multilingual geographic regions, in less than 10.

And that's also what happened to my former employer's business.
• They also rapidly grew from an SEO labor outsourcing company to a B2B back-office labor outsourcing center.

Massive returns seem to always be from fair value exchange propositions. And it's always in good faith, too.

Best of luck!

 

[Gabriel0504]

I can tell you from my experience and by working a corporate job that I've never worked 8 hours to reach my targets. most of the days I even go beyond my that on 4-6 hours max, I even got promoted and my salary was raised by the maximum percentage allowed by the company, they don't really care as long as you're not "lazy".

And most probably, someone that is categorized as being lazy at their job will probably not work on their own projects during 9-5 from the beginning.

In the end, the corporation I'm working for can replace me within 24H if anything goes wrong so why would I care that much if they find out I'm working for myself if at the same time I am delivering very good results?

I'd rather focus on myself and my projects during my "free 9-5 hours" than regretting that after they replace me with AI or fire the entire team.

 

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[maverick]

Take 2 jobs. Stockpile money. Use to build business.

 

[ZackerySprague]

I feel off the wagon, after looking at TGRE. Yes I can see how this could potentially be unethical behavior.

 

[ZackerySprague]

@ZackerySprague - I’d love to see you create a company, employ many people and come back to this thread to explain how you feel about your own advice… write yourself a letter to be opened 10 years from today!

What a popular thread! There seems to be 3 types of replies:

• 1. Agree with the advice

Typically employees who are seeking an out. Typically overworked, feel underpaid. They definitely want someone to blame because they work, meaning "hey, I am not some lazy shmuck, I work hard!" type of crowd. They seek something better but lack the vision on "how". Typically feel that they already work hard and are good performers, better than the majority.

This group blames corporate America for inefficiencies within their organizations. They clearly see a "us - entrepreneurs" vs "them - employers", a difference without distinction!

This working group sees other employees/colleagues as sheep! After all, they are the enlightened ones, they read a book and are working on a business. They miss the part where same co-workers can be their ticket for success...

They rarely get a break from "life". Grinding with little to show for it is the hardest work there is, it's tiring and frustrating. I feel for these folks, as I used to be one of you!

• 2. Disagree with the advice

Typically those who have a business and/or are stubborn about self-development / growth.

In a knowledge economy, employers bend over backwards to hire and retain best employees. People in this category know that employees who act like entrepreneurs "intra-preneurs" of any organization deliver 10x of the "good review" employee that's "doing their job". They add insane value to the bottom line. 80/20 principle applies here.

This group understands how the brain works and can see 2nd and 3rd order consequences. Meaning:

• There is no such thing as "multitasking", it's just switching between tasks. And focused work is gone when you do that.
• No matter what you do for a job, there is huge energy in creating valuable things - in adding value. You are never exhausted after a day where you had everything to do and you've done it. There is an energy that comes with achieving things. When you try to do "my job description" it's way harder and more tiring.
• If you are working and getting promotions, it's a great test for how you may be as an entrepreneur because business is way harder than anything you've done before.

Yes, that's key here, so I'll repeat. It's the people who recognize that the best test of your ability to add value to the world (core of entrepreneurship?!) is by doing it in a low risk environment, like a job or a side hustle...

Jobs are fertile ground for innovation, becoming an "intra-preneur" means being unafraid to get fired because you can't get fired. Your value is so high that employers give ... whatever you ask.

It's not about my story, it's a general framework. Stories are just to illustrate how it works in the real life. And there are plenty.

• 3. It depends

Sure, almost everything can be put into this category. Technically this is the most "correct" answer, but IMO it's useless in this day and age. There are fewer and fewer jobs that require just a warm body. Even security work is getting replaced with technology... sure, these "you just have to sit here all day" jobs exist, but they pay very little and there are fewer of them out there. It's less viable of an option IMO and there are better alternatives.


****
Even the recently popular for this forum "car detailing" businesses that keep popping up can make money faster than a "security job" so you can focus on building your own business.

Some jobs can provide a "playground".

Say you are in tech space, being close to those who build can be the difference between success and failure.

Why do it alone when you can have support? That's why you keep seeing clusters of businesses geographically - people meet people. People get better concepts, ideas, better execution support etc.

Face to face isn't dead. In fact, it's thriving.


Good luck.

edit:


Great job man! That just means you are 10x more likely to succeed in building your own business.

A friend of mine did something similar. He make his job so much easier by building tools on his own.

Before it got bigger, he went back to his employer and asked "do you want to pay for developing this software further, it improves the work by 4x to 10x". Employer said "no".

Do you mind if I create it and pay for it on my own, I'll own it and only I will use it to make my work more efficient. "Sure!". They amended the employment agreement to make it clear that was all up and up (legally).

Then it got tricky, his own software was getting so good that it was a business inside a business. He realized that he could become a rival to his employer!

We were having a dinner one day and brainstorming... what's the right next move? He was very smart, he went back to the employer and explained how much better it turned out, he automated more than half of the work! Then he offered his employer an option to now buy his software!!!

It went up the international corporate ranks (huge company)... and came back down "no".

He quit, started his own firm and attracted a dozen staff from the same shop because they could now work less for more money! He's crushing it right now. To me this is the inspiration behind not separating things that are potentially related. Jobs and companies that are inefficient are the fertile ground for real entrepreneurs to take over.

I like your idea Antifragile.

 

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[RicardoGrande]

A wider thing I'm really picking up here, between the two main camps, is this:

If you have time, whatever time you have, make damn good use of it.

And damn it, I've been there too.

I know @Johnny boy just had a gold post on this the other day, but it's worth re-iterating here.
Despite what you may think of Zack's initial post in the thread, the main subtext here is:

"I had all this time, but I didn't have a solid goal and didn't use it well, and I'm still stuck in the vice grip of the rat race 4 years later"

And it's hard not to empathize with that.
Sure, he did say he either just focused on the job or lazed about, but when you're in your 20s and don't have a solid aim, I've come to understand a lot of people can end up in that position.
Whether you're like me and legitimately have super ADHD, or if you're trying to balance work/pleasure/friends- are you damn sure you're taking the consistent actions day by day (and not cheating it) to get where you want to go?

Are you sure you can't take things asymmetrical for a few months for a big payoff in the future?
I think with a good vision, any solid system can get you where you want to go even if you do lose a big chunk of your time. Even if you're unsure of "EcoNOmiC COnDItioNs!!"or where you'll be next year, making the time, taking action, checking your results and iterating will still be the best thing you can do.

For more of the purposes of this thread and echoing a few others, I do what I can when I can if I'm on the clock (mostly business podcasts or audiobooks/courses) but I still find myself with a helluva lot less time than I did during covid. A few things could've gone better, but I didn't have the the commitment or the accountability and systems in place to really get my nose to the grindstone. Because of that, I've been fighting a dayjob tooth and nail these past 3 years as I've been taking my WD business full time. I didn't use the time gifted to me well, and now I see kids that joined FWS back when I did running 15k/mo google ads businesses and damn it hurts.

In the end, where do you want to be in the future?
Even if you don't know, be it 3 years or 5, and you haven't walked the system back from that goal to now to get there, don't waste a damn moment, get pencil to paper, sign up for focusmate or GoalSumo.com, get accountability, and get your @$$ to the races.

 

[cmh]

Man, some of the advice in this thread is absolutely clownish for an entrepreneurs' forum. You have exactly ONE life to live on this earth, and trophies belong to winners. If you want a trophy (whatever that means to you), F*cking go win.

If you are working a large corporate remote job, we all know that the majority of the time you will not be taxed too hard. Use those spare cycles on your own biz. It sure beats sitting around playing Angry Birds or whatever wagies do to kill time nowadays.

Yes, do a superb job at work in order to be ethical to your employer and build your network. If you do it well enough, like me, your first big customer helps launch your biz full time, and your second customer is the FT job you just left sending a contract with you on the way out!

You would have to have some form of Asperger's to sit around with no work to do and just twiddle your thumbs and not build your biz just on the basis of some principal (what is the principal exactly? I'm not sure). I can't believe I have to tell grown people this.

And yes, I have a company with employees. My company has an entrepreneurship policy that encourages young guns as long as they are fulfilling their company duties and not competing.

 

[Kevin88660]

I'm at a job, had a task that took me 3 hours to do. Then I developed a python script and did the exact same task in 1 minute. Then I automated another such task... My coworkers ? Stuck in repetitive hell, the smart ones trying to gain an edge by their own skills.

Is it immoral for me to use time for my Sass when I'm 10x more productive in 1/10 of the time ? I even could use the new skills I get learning Sass to add value in other parts of the company (which I intend to do).

To me "the boss" === the customer, I don't really see any difference. If he's happy with the results, does he really care how I provide them ? (as long as it's legal of course)

If you have two 1 million dollar houses and they are exactly the same quality do you really care if they took 3 years or 3 days to build ? What if the 3 day house is even better ?

Of course you'd like to pay less, or get more houses because the worker is so skillful or so fast but that is not how market forces work.

Of course this is very industry / skill relative.

what are the task types that could be automated?

 

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[Johnny boy]

You would have to have some form of Asperger's to sit around with no work to do and just twiddle your thumbs and not build your biz just on the basis of some principal (what is the principal exactly? I'm not sure). I can't believe I have to tell grown people this.

If these nerds are going to suddenly develop a conscience why is it always about stuff that keeps them poor?? Why not something useful like not watching porn out of principle? Or doing everything they say they’re going to do out of principle? Not being an obedient wage slave.

 

[Devilery]

I'm in this position right now. I work a remote job which is technically full-time but has no set hours, it's just - get shit done. I have cut ties with all the previous clients, so I could provide quality output, but yeah, every day, I'm also working on my personal projects.

The question is simple but the answers will vary: assuming you want to keep your remote job, is your boss/client happy?

That's all that matters. If he/she/xe/zem/etc. is happy, you're good, do whatever you want during your off-hours.

If they're not, do you need/want to keep that job or not?

As long as your boss/client is getting a positive return on your salary, you're doing your job. Sure, I might have gotten more lucky than others, but if you operate with the mindset - my client/boss needs to get a positive return on my salary, they'll keep paying you and won't be bothered about whether you watch porn during work, or build a business.

 

[Matt Sun]

what are the task types that could be automated?

Basically email marketing. I had to email hundreds of addresses they gave me manually with a very old SMTP provider. Now it's done in seconds. Also after I consumed what they gave me had to get new adresses of potential clients to email, manually. With two scripts now I have thousands (tens of thousands?) of potential client's addresses and I'm emailing automatically even as I sleep.
I do have to follow up manually and be a good salesman overall (even meet clients in person) but the bulk of the raw tedious task is done by python. If I had to do it manually I wouldn't achieve 10% of the outreach I get this way.

 

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[cmh]

If these nerds are going to suddenly develop a conscience why is it always about stuff that keeps them poor?? Why not something useful like not watching porn out of principle? Or doing everything they say they’re going to do out of principle? Not being an obedient wage slave.

I'll answer your question: It's because they are afraid to try, and fail. I used to do this when I was 14-20 years old or so. I'd intentionally sabotage myself as a way of protecting my fragile ego. Many never grow out of this, so they end up as a 62-year old wagie with a long string of moral victories.

 

[AceVentures]

My contention is that "trying to keep the job and milk it the best you can" is a weak strategy in that it further conditions a risk-averse behavior.

Sometimes you have to cross the bridge to see what's on the other side.

If I were in a remote-work situation, but couldn't leave my job because I didn't have the runway to cover my expenses, here's what I would do:

Get a sales job and work 80-90hour weeks until I had at least a one year runway and confidence in my ability to pivot to new challenges.

When I was working remote as a high-paid engineer I was a giant pussy. No amount of moonlighting changed my mindset. Because I was operating from a position of fear.

Get a new job which pays more, move to a new city, try and fail at a project. Do whatever. But if you don't take some real risk you don't ever grow.

That's why I believe multi-tasking behind an L-shaped desk trying to develop a fail-safe strategy to sail off into an entrepreneurial fantasy isn't the best strategy.

 

[cmh]

My contention is that "trying to keep the job and milk it the best you can" is a weak strategy in that it further conditions a risk-averse behavior.

Sometimes you have to cross the bridge to see what's on the other side.

If I were in a remote-work situation, but couldn't leave my job because I didn't have the runway to cover my expenses, here's what I would do:

Get a sales job and work 80-90hour weeks until I had at least a one year runway and confidence in my ability to pivot to new challenges.

When I was working remote as a high-paid engineer I was a giant pussy. No amount of moonlighting changed my mindset. Because I was operating from a position of fear.

Get a new job which pays more, move to a new city, try and fail at a project. Do whatever. But if you don't take some real risk you don't ever grow.

That's why I believe multi-tasking behind an L-shaped desk trying to develop a fail-safe strategy to sail off into an entrepreneurial fantasy isn't the best strategy.

You aren't wrong on this assessment; it depends on personality as to how it applies. I understand how the soft comfort could hold one back, though it didn't apply to me personally to the point I needed to not moonlight for myself. Once I realized (as a remote high-paid engineer) that I was being a pussy, I just made a plan to make the leap and executed.

 

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[Kevin88660]

Basically email marketing. I had to email hundreds of addresses they gave me manually with a very old SMTP provider. Now it's done in seconds. Also after I consumed what they gave me had to get new adresses of potential clients to email, manually. With two scripts now I have thousands (tens of thousands?) of potential client's addresses and I'm emailing automatically even as I sleep.
I do have to follow up manually and be a good salesman overall (even meet clients in person) but the bulk of the raw tedious task is done by python. If I had to do it manually I wouldn't achieve 10% of the outreach I get this way.

I am in the process of emailing to 500 clients address with identical message and attachment.

If their email bounced back I will take note and try to whatsapp text them.

I guess that could be automated as well, at least the emailing part.

It was a one off task and I don’t have to do it again anytime soon with another 500 email address. Hence I didn’t even think of any possibility to automate it.

 

[Ing]

It’s a shame having to work for an hourly salary.
Idiots get the same as smart.
From some point I wouldn’t work a job, where I m paid hourly on the end of the day. I see a coworker doing a work in 50 minutes and in crappy finish, which I do in 12 minutes, but we get the same salary. Huw…?

The employer must tune the job expectations to the slow worker, to get all men under one head.
Butt: So a employer must offer either hourly salary and accept, that I do my work in 12 minutes and than maybe do something else or he gives a percentage of the revenue.

And I would never accept a job with hourly salary as long I m healthy.