Am I wrong or is my friend wrong? (Need opinions)

[Gold777]

So one of my friends want to start a website without planning for it.

His argument:
He says planning and thinking about the idea is just wasting even more time. He says that the expenses of this project won't dent his bank, it will be fun for him, he doesn't mind that he loses time working on it and he will learn a lot.

Well while that might sound good, he doesn't know much about websites at all, he doesn't know anything about Internet Marketing, he has very very little experience with programming, and this is his FIRST time starting a website. He has this idea for a website, just an idea that's it and he wants to get started working on the website right away. He wants to buy a template then start programming it with his very little knowledge of programming.

My argument:
I've been down that road before, I've started websites without plans and without any programming knowledge, got stuck on something and just stopped dead in my tracks. I say that it's not even so much not having the programming experience that will cause the project to fail but also the fact that he has no plan. I'm 100% positive that even though the idea and website is pretty simple, it will still take weeks if not months to complete (and I think months).

He actually has enough money to pay developers to create this website but he wants to do it himself. Which is fine like I said, except he still has no plan. Well what does not having a plan mean? It means he won't know what he wants on the pages, what pages it will need, no idea how to market the site and what he will do about marketing until he finishes the site. On top of that, he won't have any idea where he should start with the development of the site, all of it will be off the top of his head, he won't know if he wants users to register or not need to which means if he does then he also needs to create the profiles and extra features. He also has no plans for scaling the project, wants to find a random template to program all of these features into, and he's afraid that if he starts planning he won't ever stop.

Additionally, he's in his late 20's, he's in college, and he has no idea at all how long this project will take him to develop but he thinks that it won't take that long and that it will be fun.

Conclusion:
I'm not against him learning how to program, but he wants to start making money (and I'm fairly sure that he wants to make it as soon as possible) and is completely underestimating how long it will take him to develop this project and what it will be like getting frustrated with the coding, not knowing what to do, and sometimes templates just don't work out and he won't know that and will just keep trying to fix the problem wasting even more time. He also doesn't even really want to be a programmer he just wants to learn how to make simple sites so that he can make one for his company, but learning how to actually program websites and on top of that manage them, takes a while.

I say that if he makes the site he should make a plan, outsource the development, and if he wants to learn programming then do it with a small project meant just experimenting/learning. I'm actually even against him making this site at all at first, it's a good idea but he's just doing it "for fun" and isn't really taking it serious (hence the not planning part). So I think he should even buy a website that's' already generating profit and learn how to manage/operate it (he has the funds to do so) or create a few niche websites (with something easy like WordPress) that will bring in stable income and either build more on top of that later or use the money from those to buy once again an already profitable niche website. A website is what he wants to have and is what he wants to make money from.

So what do you guys think? Who's right? Who's wrong? Should I just let him learn on his own and try to have fun with this? Am I pressing him too hard to create a plan? Or would he be better off taking some of my advice and steering clear of that road where he wastes valuable time not planning for success and then taking action?

 

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[James Fake]

Let him learn from his mistakes on his own.

If he quits his project and never comes back to it, that's his problem. That means he'll be a quitter and quitters don't become millionaires.

 

[Runum]

What difference is it to you whether he does it his way or your way? Do you lose anything if he does things his way? From what I am seeing, you do things your way and allow him the freedom to do things his way.

There may be a best way for you and a best way for him. Not all of us think alike and not all of us solve problems the same. No right or wrong, just different.

 

[Gold777]

What difference is it to you whether he does it his way or your way? Do you lose anything if he does things his way? From what I am seeing, you do things your way and allow him the freedom to do things his way.

Well he came to me for help, and I have much more experience than him on the internet. He told me that this is how he wants to do things and that he wants my help, I told him that he shouldn't do things that way and that he should do them like this instead because I've not only have I been in his shoes but knew a lot of people who were as well who didn't get anywhere. I'm just really trying to help this guy avoid making mistakes that's all. He also agreed to me making this thread to get other peoples opinions because he thinks he's right and that he will be fine, but the fact is that he will be slowed down by the course of action he wants to take and will learn the hard way by wasting time and money instead of following good advice.

There may be a best way for you and a best way for him. Not all of us think alike and not all of us solve problems the same. No right or wrong, just different.

Agreed, but as someone giving advice and as him being someone who came to me for help. I just want to be able to show him the best route to accomplishing his goals instead of watching him mess around with something that won't help him in the long run, and being in college and in his late twenties on top of that won't help in my opinion.

 

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[Runum]

Ahh, gotcha now. I have a different take on this now.

I, personally, have a hard time with people that ask for my advice or help and then ignore me and do the opposite. If you believe that I am of enough reputation to come to me and ask me my opinion or for help and I spend my time to assist then why would you insult me by ignoring the help you asked for?

 

[MJ DeMarco]

I'm actually on the side of your friend, assuming he is someone who can pickup code as well as other required skills.

I believe by "just doing it" you ultimately learn so much more, even if that results in failure. Hiring out some Eastern European web firm to do a website, to me, is "eventful" thinking. ("Oh, Ill just get someone on Elance to build the website and bam, I'm gonna be in business!")

Learning and failing, to me, is process thinking.

As long as he commits to the process I see nothing wrong with it, especially if he is someone that can pick up all the nuances of building a website. (GUI, DB, Code, Graphics, etc.). Additionally, as someone who built a site, he will have much more control. When something goes awry, having to wait 12 hours to get someone half-way around the planet to fix it, versus knowing how to fix it yourself, are two different ball games.

I say the above w/the understanding that he has a plan based on a need.

 

[Gold777]

Ahh, gotcha now. I have a different take on this now.

I, personally, have a hard time with people that ask for my advice or help and then ignore me and do the opposite. If you believe that I am of enough reputation to come to me and ask me my opinion or for help and I spend my time to assist then why would you insult me by ignoring the help you asked for?

Yeah, you can ignore this thread now guys.

Lol I told him to PM me for help and more questions, then he did, and I offered him to work with me and that I could help him get started. So he asks how we can work together, I explain, and then he pitches me his idea and says we're going to do things his way and not make a plan. His exact words were "I have a plan NOW, lets F*cking do it because I don't have a damn thing to lose".

I say that I have something to lose, which is my valuable time on an unplanned project and that we should plan for it at least. He takes offense to this and instantly says that if I feel he's wasting my time then it's time to part ways. That's when the whole idea about the plan pops up and we agree to make this thread.

So DESPITE him contacting me to ask questions, get my guidance and help, and then us agreeing to brainstorm some ideas to work together he says that he didn't ask for my help and that I'm twisting up his words. He literally thought of his idea within 1 hour and then told me about it and said and I quote "I have an idea NOW, lets F*cking do it." then expects me to agree to help him and put time into this project that he has no intentions of creating a plan for. Then gets offended when I say that it would waste my time, and gets offended that I say that he asked for my help, what?

Then once I say that he did indeed kind of non intentionally insult me by not following any of my advice, honestly pretty much ignoring it he says word for word "Go on with your life". Lol I mean how immature is that? You don't start your own business with a construction worker who has been in the business for 10 years while you have been in it for one day, ask him for help then tell him that this is my idea and this is what we should do, and that we shouldn't have a plan for it and then get upset and tell him to go on with his life when he says he would be wasting his time if he decided to do that.

Forget anything about learning how to program but that's just ridiculous seriously, talk about throwing away a valuable friendship over an idea that you thought of in 30 minutes.... Hope everything works out for him.

 

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[Gold777]

I'm actually on the side of your friend, assuming he is someone who can pickup code as well as other required skills.

I believe by "just doing it" you ultimately learn so much more, even if that results in failure. Hiring out some Eastern European web firm to do a website, to me, is "eventful" thinking. ("Oh, Ill just get someone on Elance to build the website and bam, I'm gonna be in business!")

Learning and failing, to me, is process thinking.

As long as he commits to the process I see nothing wrong with it, especially if he is someone that can pick up all the nuances of building a website. (GUI, DB, Code, Graphics, etc.). Additionally, as someone who built a site, he will have much more control. When something goes awry, having to wait 12 hours to get someone half-way around the planet to fix it, versus knowing how to fix it yourself, are two different ball games.

I say the above w/the understanding that he has a plan based on a need.

No, there's no need for his idea it would just be something interesting. As I said before, he also literally has no plan. I would tell you what the idea is but I wouldn't want to insult him.

If he can pick up the skills fast then great, but he said he has been learning how to code websites for a month but literally has no idea about website templates, etc, he even said "F*ck the internet!" because he found an article telling him not to use a template for his website before logging off, then logging back in to tell me about his new idea and how he was going to build it with no plan.

Like I said, if he could learn fast then great but based on the fact that he's in his late twenties (and I do mean late), is currently in college, and is studying something in college that's completely different from what he wants to do online, I would say the chances are slim that he picks up coding fast. Not to mention his attitude, but I mean in no way to insult him it's just the way he handled things was completely immature and unnecessary in my book.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Then gets offended when I say that it would waste my time, and gets offended that I say that he asked for my help, what?

He sounds like the kind of guy you don't want to work with. Looks like the best decision for you was made crystal clear.

 

[Pete799p]

I think there is merrit in both. I think you should jump in asap but you need to atleast spend a few days planning out what you want to accomplish. At least set 1 short and 1 long term goal then figure the rest out.

Me personally I learn infinitly more when I jump in and figure it out but a plan helps me to figure out what I am trying to figure out. I knew nothing about the web until I joined this forum and I have been slowly making progress. I set goals of things I wanted to be able to do then try and do them. I dont think you need a long business plan but a general direction is a good thing to have.

 

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[max momo]

I think you are both right.
I think you are both wrong.

Your prescription cannot work for him and vice versa b.c. you are both different people/systems.

Also, you are both at different stags, both technically and in mindset. One answer won't work for these two disparate situations.

Giving him the answers to chapter 6 won't cut it when he is asking you for definitions brought out in ch 2.

Arguing is a waste of time. Tell him if he wants YOUR help execting HIS idea he must pay YOU for YOUR time and experience (consulting time or piece work). He will likely balk at first, but then pay you such that he can wrap up chapter 4 and move on to chapter 5.

Personally, I am very glad I spent the time I did on my first website. Taught me well. Now I am happy to pay for a website, but at least know what to ask for and how to ask for it.

ciao

 

[Shuffle]

Wow what a guy. It depends on what kind of person you are, but he sure did make clear what kind of guy he is. Perhaps you should put a high price on it

 

[Brander]

The post I would have made before you made the decision to not work with him:

1) He came to you for help on the basis that you know more about the internet then he does.
2) He doesn't listen, yet he has a point about just starting - he just needs to at least ask the target market what they think and do the front end and see if he gets some "buy now" clicks.
3) Based on results from the above point, you decide if you want to help him, BUT If you two disagree it's better to save the friendship and let him do it himself.

The post I am making after your decision:
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

 

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