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MJ talks about living off of 3.5% interest from bonds for life. But is he correct?

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FastLaner007

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Dear Fastlaners,

I have a genuine question. MJ says in TMF and UnScripted that you can live off of interest from a large sum of money all your life without working. But I have a doubt.

Suppose you have $10 million invested in municipal bonds, and you earn 3.5% interest per year. That's $350,000 in yearly income. Now this would be tax free. How can you live off of on interest like this if there is an average inflation of 2.5%. I mean the principal will lose its value at some point if we spend all the interest from bonds to fund our lifestyle without offsetting for the inflation by ploughing back 2.5% into the principal every year. So, how do you keep withdrawing the 3.5% interest and also keep up with the inflation (i.e. not eat your principal).

Sorry if my question is dumb or doesn't make sense, but I wish you understand my genuine question guys.

Thanks.
 

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Boychamp

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He explicitly says that is ONE source of income. You diversify your portfolio of investments - whether that be through real estate that you actually are making the deals for, more passive real estate funds, index funds, growth stocks, dividend stocks, angel investing, peer to peer lending, foreign currency, etc etc etc.

You want some things that are more focused on growing your wealth (asset appreciation) while others are more focused on cash flow.

Lastly, it's kind of hypothetical. Most people that create a large sum of money don't simply do nothing for the rest of their lives living off the interest - they use their wealth to create more through other business ventures.
 

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Your example actually still works. It's probably not the only thing you would do. Living on a fixed income is just one of the things you can do. This strategy is similar to taking a standard retirement, but doing it early in life with a large amount of principal to start with.

Even if you apply 5% inflation (more than the interest!) and assume that all of the interest is consumed every year, it still works. It just results in declining spending power over a period of time.

Let's assume you never spend the principal, and the interest rate is always 3.5%, and the inflation rate is 5% every year. Sounds awful right? It still works, in a way.

After 10 years, instead of $350,000 in today's spending power, you have $209,558 in today's spending power. You're still in the upper 5% or better for spending power, by today's standards.

After 30 years, your 350k income is equivalent to just over $75,000. You're not income-rich at that point, but you do still have the $10,000,000 principal sum, which is worth over $2,000,000 in today's dollars.

Is that the only thing you should do with your money? Almost surely not, if you're a good manager. However, there's no doubt it could work.

Now if we throw out the assumption that you piss away the 350k on fancy clothes those first 10 years, and you invest some of that in income-producing assets, where do we end up? Better. If we live off of a smaller part of the principal sum, and invest a portion in something growth-oriented, where do we get? Probably better.

So living off the interest is a basic example, out of which you can build a more robust wealth strategy.
 

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MJ talks about living off of 3.5% interest from bonds for life.

A bond is just one income instrument. There are others. I would recommend a variety of options, from dividend stocks, to REIT payments, to real estate income, to MLP Partnerships, to other "hands off" options that deliver regular reoccurring income.

I also don't recommend that your entire net worth be invested this way. If our net worth is entirely dependent on the stock market, you're not financially independent, but dependent.

If the markets crash 50%, my life wouldn't change. I'm guessing other folks on this forum who are financially set are similarly invested. Also, which you didn't mention, is that inflation is correlated to interest rates. If inflation is high, low paying bonds would be so cheap that they would be earning (net) a lot more 3.5%, but probably 6 or 7%. And new bond issues also would not be trading at 3.5% coupon as they'd sell none. Inflation and interest correlate.

Also, your question kinda doesn't consider HOW your life would look at this level of wealth, but looks at it from a point of view of being broke, or being leveraged to the hilt with cars and mortgages.

I have no debt (outside of an ongoing experiment) and no mortgage payments. My biggest expense is insurance and an electric bill on a fairly large house. I'm not worried about the electric bill going up from $942 to $1035, or bread going from $3 a loaf to $3.99.

So...

The bigger question is, do you own a business? And have you made a dime yet doing so?

Because all this other stuff is cart-before-the-horse, reminding me of the old thread, what color should my Ferrari be?

 

Vitaly the Winne

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A bond is just one income instrument. There are others. I would recommend a variety of options, from dividend stocks, to REIT payments, to real estate income, to MLP Partnerships, to other "hands off" options that deliver regular reoccurring income.

I also don't recommend that your entire net worth be invested this way. If our net worth is entirely dependent on the stock market, you're not financially independent, but dependent.

If the markets crash 50%, my life wouldn't change. I'm guessing other folks on this forum who are financially set are similarly invested. Also, which you didn't mention, is that inflation is correlated to interest rates. If inflation is high, low paying bonds would be so cheap that they would be earning (net) a lot more 3.5%, but probably 6 or 7%. And new bond issues also would not be trading at 3.5% coupon as they'd sell none. Inflation and interest correlate.

Also, your question kinda doesn't consider HOW your life would look at this level of wealth, but looks at it from a point of view of being broke, or being leveraged to the hilt with cars and mortgages.

I have no debt (outside of an ongoing experiment) and no mortgage payments. My biggest expense is insurance and an electric bill on a fairly large house. I'm not worried about the electric bill going up from $942 to $1035, or bread going from $3 a loaf to $3.99.

So...

The bigger question is, do you own a business? And have you made a dime yet doing so?

Because all this other stuff is cart-before-the-horse, reminding me of the old thread, what color should my Ferrari be?

Thank you for reposting this @MJ DeMarco, this is exactly what I've been doing. I actually stopped focusing on getting an Aventador a while ago, and stsrted focusing on the daily skill building process. It seemed so fake being obsessed with Z, while being on step B.
 

FastLaner007

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Your example actually still works. It's probably not the only thing you would do. Living on a fixed income is just one of the things you can do. This strategy is similar to taking a standard retirement, but doing it early in life with a large amount of principal to start with.

Even if you apply 5% inflation (more than the interest!) and assume that all of the interest is consumed every year, it still works. It just results in declining spending power over a period of time.

Let's assume you never spend the principal, and the interest rate is always 3.5%, and the inflation rate is 5% every year. Sounds awful right? It still works, in a way.

After 10 years, instead of $350,000 in today's spending power, you have $209,558 in today's spending power. You're still in the upper 5% or better for spending power, by today's standards.

After 30 years, your 350k income is equivalent to just over $75,000. You're not income-rich at that point, but you do still have the $10,000,000 principal sum, which is worth over $2,000,000 in today's dollars.

Is that the only thing you should do with your money? Almost surely not, if you're a good manager. However, there's no doubt it could work.

Now if we throw out the assumption that you piss away the 350k on fancy clothes those first 10 years, and you invest some of that in income-producing assets, where do we end up? Better. If we live off of a smaller part of the principal sum, and invest a portion in something growth-oriented, where do we get? Probably better.

So living off the interest is a basic example, out of which you can build a more robust wealth strategy.

Thanks for explaining clearly with an example bro. So you guys are suggesting that I have an income producing asset(s), like a business venture, even after attaining a huge sum of money?

It's stressful in most cases to own and operate a business. I don't mind working on a business till I achieve my financial goals. But after retirement, I wanna take things easy. So, do you guys recommend I invest in passive income producing businesses like restaurants, bars, grocery shops, real estate brokerage, etc?
 

Greg R

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A bond is just one income instrument. There are others. I would recommend a variety of options, from dividend stocks, to REIT payments, to real estate income, to MLP Partnerships, to other "hands off" options that deliver regular reoccurring income.

I also don't recommend that your entire net worth be invested this way. If our net worth is entirely dependent on the stock market, you're not financially independent, but dependent.

If the markets crash 50%, my life wouldn't change. I'm guessing other folks on this forum who are financially set are similarly invested. Also, which you didn't mention, is that inflation is correlated to interest rates. If inflation is high, low paying bonds would be so cheap that they would be earning (net) a lot more 3.5%, but probably 6 or 7%. And new bond issues also would not be trading at 3.5% coupon as they'd sell none. Inflation and interest correlate.

Also, your question kinda doesn't consider HOW your life would look at this level of wealth, but looks at it from a point of view of being broke, or being leveraged to the hilt with cars and mortgages.

I have no debt (outside of an ongoing experiment) and no mortgage payments. My biggest expense is insurance and an electric bill on a fairly large house. I'm not worried about the electric bill going up from $942 to $1035, or bread going from $3 a loaf to $3.99.

So...

The bigger question is, do you own a business? And have you made a dime yet doing so?

Because all this other stuff is cart-before-the-horse, reminding me of the old thread, what color should my Ferrari be?

This reminds me of the wealth equation you talked about.
 

Rabby

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Thanks for explaining clearly with an example bro. So you guys are suggesting that I have an income producing asset(s), like a business venture, even after attaining a huge sum of money?

It's stressful in most cases to own and operate a business. I don't mind working on a business till I achieve my financial goals. But after retirement, I wanna take things easy. So, do you guys recommend I invest in passive income producing businesses like restaurants, bars, grocery shops, real estate brokerage, etc?

No problem :)

Yes, my personal feeling is that I would always want to own a business in some capacity. One or more. But you can own a business passively.

I currently own one business passively, and the excess income and resources from that business are allowing me to start another one (and live a very acceptable lifestyle). If you're the sole owner, you just have to build the structural capital of the business so that it can run with little or no input from you. That's a whole skill set in itself, but it's not as hard to learn as, say sales and marketing, in my opinion.

If you didn't want to start and systematize another business, but you already had a huge lump of cash, you could invest in other people who were starting businesses. A lot of cities will have a local startup community, and you can find pitch nights, angel groups, etc, for your high risk high growth investments. Investing in growth oriented companies at an early stage is another way to "own" a business passively for investment... difference being it is partial ownership. For these kinds of investment, you'll often need to show $1mm in assets other than your home, or $200k personal income for a few consecutive years (accredited investment status). That's in the US, anyway.

Aside form business, there are other good options. REITs, straight real estate, TICs (tenants in common - basically group ownership in large properties like highrises). Lending out money to private lenders, or to individual investors. Maybe corporate bonds for higher returns. Options, futures or futures options if you want growth based on market speculation, or need to hedge some other asset position. At the point when you might need some of these instruments, they're available to you.

Some, all or none of them might be useful in the strategy you come up with once you're sitting on $50mm... but don't let it distract you too much now, if you're not in that position. The point is, you can easily survive on the interest from a few million, and you have lots of options for investing a portion for growth, higher income, risk management, etc.
 

ZCP

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I took the stuff @MJ DeMarco put down from a different perspective .......

how much does it cost to live the life you want? if 100k per year, divide by 0.035 = $2.85M needed in a tax free yield of 3.5% to not have to do anything else to live the life you want.

now i can do two things .... 1. set aside a constant portion of salary / business income / etc. to go into my investment fund ... and 2. create an asset that can be sold (exit event) to get there faster

once i have $2.85M in something paying tax free 3.5%, i am free.

Here is the key ....... to me, that is a very attainable number. So i can positively build for that and it is incredibly motivating.

Knowing exactly what you need gives you a target. A specific achievable goal. And a way to measure your progress and motivate you.
 

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I took the stuff @MJ DeMarco put down from a different perspective .......

how much does it cost to live the life you want? if 100k per year, divide by 0.035 = $2.85M needed in a tax free yield of 3.5% to not have to do anything else to live the life you want.

now i can do two things .... 1. set aside a constant portion of salary / business income / etc. to go into my investment fund ... and 2. create an asset that can be sold (exit event) to get there faster

once i have $2.85M in something paying tax free 3.5%, i am free.

Here is the key ....... to me, that is a very attainable number. So i can positively build for that and it is incredibly motivating.

Knowing exactly what you need gives you a target. A specific achievable goal. And a way to measure your progress and motivate you.
I'm taking the same perspective ZCP...at least for now. I suspect I'll always be on the hunt for the next thing. But for now, I am concentrating on my current project with a goal of achieving sufficient cash flow to get $3 million working for me in a mix of investments. Wife and I don't have exotic tastes desires for cars, planes, boats, etc., so we can live very comfortably of the interest from that. What I do after that...?
 

MJ DeMarco

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I took the stuff @MJ DeMarco put down from a different perspective .......

how much does it cost to live the life you want? if 100k per year, divide by 0.035 = $2.85M needed in a tax free yield of 3.5% to not have to do anything else to live the life you want.

now i can do two things .... 1. set aside a constant portion of salary / business income / etc. to go into my investment fund ... and 2. create an asset that can be sold (exit event) to get there faster

once i have $2.85M in something paying tax free 3.5%, i am free.

Here is the key ....... to me, that is a very attainable number. So i can positively build for that and it is incredibly motivating.

Knowing exactly what you need gives you a target. A specific achievable goal. And a way to measure your progress and motivate you.

Your post is a reminder WHY I need to get the rep system (or awards system) back working on this site. Rep in a repless world!

So you guys are suggesting that I have an income producing asset(s), like a business venture, even after attaining a huge sum of money?

Not necessarily.

I'm suggesting that you don't have your entire future existence wrapped up in the stock market.

When you own a rental house, you own a business.
When you own a dividend stock that pays you income from operations, you own a TINY piece of a business.
When you own the rights to a book you published, you own a business.
When you have a partnership in an MLP, an LLC, or some other business, you own a TINY piece of a business.
When you have a cash earn out from a business you sold 3 years ago, you own a TINY piece of a business.
When your cash is earning interest at a bank, or in a bond, or in a money market, you own a little business.
When your hobby (that you love) starts to pay you an side income, you own a little business.

Once you reach the point of Unscription (F*YOU) you will start something else.

Do something else.

Invest in something else.

These investments and business interests might be more aligned with passions, and interests more so than market viability.

A good example is there's a person on this webite who mentioned a few times that he owns interests in racehorses. That's something you do from a position of (F*YOU), not from a position, "gee, I can barely pay my bills and get this business off the ground."

Another example is myself. This forum and my publishing company makes a decent income from the point of already being Unscripted . HOWEVER, if I was just getting started and needed to amass wealth? I definitely would be doing something else that had yielded a better return on my time.

Your post seems concerned with inflation which I'm telling you won't matter much once you reach a true Unscripted existence of never having to work again. I hold a lot of money in money markets (cash) that, in truth, is losing purchasing power. This doesn't concern me because the fact is, I only have 30, maybe 40 years of life left. When you own everything in your life the inflation rate won't change that. Sure it might cost $250 t0 to fill up the truck vs $50 or the electric bill might go from $500 to $1,500 -- but in the grand scheme of having millions and a huge safety cushion -- IMMUNE FROM STOCK MARKET CRASHES and RECESSIONS -- none of it matters.

What I do after that...?

Ah yes, whatever your heart desires! That's the position of (F*YOU)!
 

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One other interesting aside, which some other posts above reminded me of. Notice that at 3.5% interest, you need several million to make your income goals. But if you can establish a mostly passive business, the profit will certainly be more than 3.5% if it is successful. So a business with a theoretical value of say $1mm can still yield $200k for you passively. The asset value isn't that high if it's sold, but it easily supports a lifestyle. The guarantees are not as tight as a financial instrument, but the deal is still better. If you have a guaranteed baseline that keeps you from worrying about starvation, you can try any number of deals, at various levels of uncertainty. From real estate to small/medium business to race horses to 3rd world energy exploration. That's part of the freedom.
 

Eric Flathers

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Dear Fastlaners,

I have a genuine question. MJ says in TMF and UnScripted that you can live off of interest from a large sum of money all your life without working. But I have a doubt.

Suppose you have $10 million invested in municipal bonds, and you earn 3.5% interest per year. That's $350,000 in yearly income. Now this would be tax free. How can you live off of on interest like this if there is an average inflation of 2.5%. I mean the principal will lose its value at some point if we spend all the interest from bonds to fund our lifestyle without offsetting for the inflation by ploughing back 2.5% into the principal every year. So, how do you keep withdrawing the 3.5% interest and also keep up with the inflation (i.e. not eat your principal).

Sorry if my question is dumb or doesn't make sense, but I wish you understand my genuine question guys.

Thanks.

If you are worried about inflation then buy TIPPS they are government bonds indexed to inflation.

Like MJ said you can't put your whole net-worth in the stock market. Spread it around, buy into some businesses, real estate, gold, growth stock, dividend-paying stock and MLP's.

If you have a high worth like 10 million you might also want to look into art, collectibles and Vintage cars. While these are not guaranteed to go up in value they are another set of assets the rich use to diversify.

Unless you have 10 million burning a hole in your pocket this is not what you should be focusing on. Build your business, solve your customer's problems and worry about cash flow first.
 

lludwig

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As someone who just sold my business last year, yes you can live off your interest.

You have already won the game, so taking crazy risks on say $10M is stupid. I take risks in the businesses I own since I have more control over them.

You want to build an income that's at least the risk-free rate. Currently, that's around 2%ish (yea I know sucks). Like @MJ DeMarco has said it is possible to do better with little risk. Though taking a large risk for say 7-8%+ return in this current environment is just plain stupid.

At the moment I'm at 70% bonds/30% stocks. My asset allocation is expected to be eventually 60% stock/40% bonds but looking to build up other incomes first before I get more aggressive in my investments. Stocks historically keep up better with moderate inflation. Which is why I plan on a 60/40 split.

Right now looking to preserve wealth and generate income. Since my income has dramatically decreased since last year.

What got you to a net worth of $10M is different than what you need to do to maintain it.
 
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Matt Hunt

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I'm a big believer in real estate. You can invest in multi-family real estate passively and earn 8-10% cash flow, with even more return coming when the property is sold. Re-invest that equity, and your net worth, and your passive income, will grow exponentially. Screw stocks & bonds.
 

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Dear Fastlaners,

I have a genuine question. MJ says in TMF and UnScripted that you can live off of interest from a large sum of money all your life without working. But I have a doubt.

Suppose you have $10 million invested in municipal bonds, and you earn 3.5% interest per year. That's $350,000 in yearly income. Now this would be tax free. How can you live off of on interest like this if there is an average inflation of 2.5%. I mean the principal will lose its value at some point if we spend all the interest from bonds to fund our lifestyle without offsetting for the inflation by ploughing back 2.5% into the principal every year. So, how do you keep withdrawing the 3.5% interest and also keep up with the inflation (i.e. not eat your principal).

Sorry if my question is dumb or doesn't make sense, but I wish you understand my genuine question guys.

Thanks.
You're right about the inflation. That's why I'm a real estate investor. My rents follow the inflation factor. Yes, they are a pain in the backside -- BUT, I know that no matter what, I'm going to be OK. If you had 10 million dollars, you would be OK too. Think of all the other investment opportunities that will come your way. It comes down to the Golden Rule. The guy with the gold rules. So, go out and make your first million and then figure out how to keep it!
 

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Dear Fastlaners,

I have a genuine question. MJ says in TMF and UnScripted that you can live off of interest from a large sum of money all your life without working. But I have a doubt.

Suppose you have $10 million invested in municipal bonds, and you earn 3.5% interest per year. That's $350,000 in yearly income. Now this would be tax free. How can you live off of on interest like this if there is an average inflation of 2.5%. I mean the principal will lose its value at some point if we spend all the interest from bonds to fund our lifestyle without offsetting for the inflation by ploughing back 2.5% into the principal every year. So, how do you keep withdrawing the 3.5% interest and also keep up with the inflation (i.e. not eat your principal).

Sorry if my question is dumb or doesn't make sense, but I wish you understand my genuine question guys.

Thanks.

Fall in love with the process and forget the end. The end is a wood box and it's coming quick.
 

WJK

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Fall in love with the process and forget the end. The end is a wood box and it's coming quick.
You're right. It's all happens too quickly. Life is all about the journey -- not the destination. One day you're 20 and then you turn 65. It's all about living every day as though it was your last. Pack as much living into those days as possible. Don't wait for the right moment. What if it never comes? What if those pesky stars never line up for you? What are you going to do then? I can tell you that no one is going to show up to hand you the perfect life. It's your task to go out and create whatever it is that you think you want. It's your blood, sweat, and tears that make the results so valuable and sweet. And if you get it all wrong, go do it again!
 

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Unless you're some weird lazy person, and don't stop working completely on anything else. i.e another business, or investing or real state you can.

But if you're that weird kind of lazy person you wouldn't be able to get that much money in the first place, unless you won the lottery or an inheritance, in which case if you're not too young and you live reasonably it would last your lifetime.
 

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