I am offered to be a CTO in a startup

[ygtrhos]

TLDR: I am offered to become a CTO in a underwater vehicle startup. I want to make a good decision, whether I accept or turn it down.

Hey everyone, I am posting this in Ideas, not sure really if that is correct.

Short background to me: I am a 34 yr old mechanical engineer. I have deep experience with FEM and know basic CAD stuff. My experience is much more about steel constructions, especially railway cars.

There is a guy who is a successful entrepreneur, a bit older than me and running a 100+ employee company already in engineering space. (specialized containers/structures, to be specific) His company is around 10 years old and he has some success under his belt, according to his own word.

His website is a bit outdated and might need a revamp, but I could believe what he said for the moment. (at least for the first interaction)

He wants to build a small submarine sort of vehicle for oceanographic and military purposes (deep sea vehicle) and the design is already half ready. It is kind of a spinoff from some research project, which he contributed to. He had a senior engineer, but he had too much focus on his personal projects and he fired him out. He used to get 8k€ a month (which is a senior engineer salary in DE/CH)

His design is half ready, he has poured around half a million euros into the project and he needs somebody to push the design further, create an MVP, improve the product etc. and create a real company. He wants to build the vehicle and rent it.

About my position, he said he can give me salary and even equity. He said, he doesnt care where or how I work, as long as things get done. I would be able to use the resources of his company (engineers and production facilities). He wants someone with a mechanical bakground, because they just do not have any knowhow about this (of which I do).

I also do not expect a stroll in the park. I will be working at least 2-3 (maybe 5-8) years 50-60 hour weeks. But hey, is it not the nature of these things?

My expectation is a normal salary and some equity (at least 20-30%) in this business. Or at least some written agreement, how I earn that equity. I can see this going to be 7-8 figures, as it also fulfills CENTS.

Things I need to know/research at this point:

- Is the guy's story really true? Does he have these facilities / engineering team? Is the design there, where he claims it to be? Maybe talk with that fired guy, ex-CTO.
- What is the business model, he has in mind? How are we going to earn money and how much? Does he have concrete business goals, or is this some sort of hobby project?
- What can I add to the project?

I hope, we have some seasoned inventors/designers on the forum, who has made such decisions.

I am not sure, if I am questioning the right things and/or if I am neglecting something out of ignorance.

What should I pay attention to in such a startup?

Any answers from experienced designers/inventors are very much appreciated.

 

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[I.M.Viktor]

Hello!

That's such a great opportunity. It makes at least cENS right from the start. Deffinetly sounds like you could reach the CENTS goal. I am 20yo and deffinetly not the one to give you advice, but I love engineering and science.
Can picture adding a cool novel technology to the submarine like fuel cell or free piston engine generator to extend the range.

Anyways, do you think it is possible to get into that kind of bussines without an engineering degree, by prooving yourself and learning yourself?
I believe so, but change my mind or confirm.

 

[Panos Daras]

I have already worked in two vehicle startups.

One of them is quite famous and international.

What a dumpster fire they both were!

The reason?

It's very difficult to make money with slim profit margins.

I don't know what the financials of your future company are, but from what I hear, they do not seem to be good.

So, based on the limited information I have, what I would propose is to ask for a high salary and zero equity.

But I am just speaking out of my a$$. If I don't see the financials, I have no idea what we're talking about.

 

[ygtrhos]

I have already worked in two vehicle startups.

One of them is quite famous and international.

What a dumpster fire they both were!

The reason?

It's very difficult to make money with slim profit margins.

I don't know what the financials of your future company are, but from what I hear, they do not seem to be good.

So, based on the limited information I have, what I would propose is to ask for a high salary and zero equity.

But I am just speaking out of my a$$. If I don't see the financials, I have no idea what we're talking about.

Thanks man, I appreciate your answer.

Were the vehicle startups B2B or B2C in your case?

Because selling trucks to some handymen or selling specialized fire trucks to government are two very different things.

Just like selling cars to private individuals or selling tanks to an army.

I have the feeling, you did B2C (and had thin margins) where we have B2B (and rather bigger margins).

Do you recommend me asking any specifics?

 

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[ygtrhos]

Hello!

That's such a great opportunity. It makes at least cENS right from the start. Deffinetly sounds like you could reach the CENTS goal. I am 20yo and deffinetly not the one to give you advice, but I love engineering and science.
Can picture adding a cool novel technology to the submarine like fuel cell or free piston engine generator to extend the range.

Anyways, do you think it is possible to get into that kind of bussines without an engineering degree, by prooving yourself and learning yourself?
I believe so, but change my mind or confirm.

Why dont you open your own thread for these questions?

And what makes you think, you are smarter than millions of people who studied STEM degrees?

If it was possible to "get into that kind of business" with self-study, we would have no need for engineering schools.

If you love engineering&science, put in the work and go learn it, instead of trying to walk around it.

 

[Panos Daras]

Thanks man, I appreciate your answer.

Were the vehicle startups B2B or B2C in your case?

Because selling trucks to some handymen or selling specialized fire trucks to government are two very different things.

Just like selling cars to private individuals or selling tanks to an army.

I have the feeling, you did B2C (and had thin margins) where we have B2B (and rather bigger margins).

Do you recommend me asking any specifics?

100% agree with all you said here.
I can discuss the specifics of which businesses they were in a DM.
One was B2C, and the other was both B2C and B2B but mostly B2C to be honest.
From what I understand they are not profitable, yet.
In regard to what I would ask, it would be something like this:

1) What's your monthly burn rate and financial runway and how are you managing expenses?
I have seen way too many 20-somethings in startups spending like there is no tomorrow and throwing cash on blow, cocaine, and hoes. TRUE STORY!
2) What's the trend in our sales growth and do we have long-term contracts ensuring steady revenue? If they look at you like an alien from planet Zorg, run! First, take their dumb money but no equity.
3) What are our key milestones and timeline towards becoming cash flow positive? Again if there is no plan then failure is the most probable outcome. Again feel free to separate them from their money. They are not smart enough to deserve them anyway.

 

[ygtrhos]

100% agree with all you said here.
I can discuss the specifics of which businesses they were in a DM.
One was B2C, and the other was both B2C and B2B but mostly B2C to be honest.
From what I understand they are not profitable, yet.
In regard to what I would ask, it would be something like this:

1) What's your monthly burn rate and financial runway and how are you managing expenses?
I have seen way too many 20-somethings in startups spending like there is no tomorrow and throwing cash on blow, cocaine, and hoes. TRUE STORY!
2) What's the trend in our sales growth and do we have long-term contracts ensuring steady revenue? If they look at you like an alien from planet Zorg, run! First, take their dumb money but no equity.
3) What are our key milestones and timeline towards becoming cash flow positive? Again if there is no plan then failure is the most probable outcome. Again feel free to separate them from their money. They are not smart enough to deserve them anyway.

These questions were exactly why I opened this thread.

Good that I opened in general section, so everyone can learn.

What do you exactly mean with "feel free to seperate them from their money"?

Do you mean their money does not correlate with their level of intelligence?

 

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[NervesOfSteel]

TLDR: I am offered to become a CTO in a underwater vehicle startup. I want to make a good decision, whether I accept or turn it down.

Hey everyone, I am posting this in Ideas, not sure really if that is correct.

Short background to me: I am a 34 yr old mechanical engineer. I have deep experience with FEM and know basic CAD stuff. My experience is much more about steel constructions, especially railway cars.

There is a guy who is a successful entrepreneur, a bit older than me and running a 100+ employee company already in engineering space. (specialized containers/structures, to be specific) His company is around 10 years old and he has some success under his belt, according to his own word.

His website is a bit outdated and might need a revamp, but I could believe what he said for the moment. (at least for the first interaction)

He wants to build a small submarine sort of vehicle for oceanographic and military purposes (deep sea vehicle) and the design is already half ready. It is kind of a spinoff from some research project, which he contributed to. He had a senior engineer, but he had too much focus on his personal projects and he fired him out. He used to get 8k€ a month (which is a senior engineer salary in DE/CH)

His design is half ready, he has poured around half a million euros into the project and he needs somebody to push the design further, create an MVP, improve the product etc. and create a real company. He wants to build the vehicle and rent it.

About my position, he said he can give me salary and even equity. He said, he doesnt care where or how I work, as long as things get done. I would be able to use the resources of his company (engineers and production facilities). He wants someone with a mechanical bakground, because they just do not have any knowhow about this (of which I do).

I also do not expect a stroll in the park. I will be working at least 2-3 (maybe 5-8) years 50-60 hour weeks. But hey, is it not the nature of these things?

My expectation is a normal salary and some equity (at least 20-30%) in this business. Or at least some written agreement, how I earn that equity. I can see this going to be 7-8 figures, as it also fulfills CENTS.

Things I need to know/research at this point:

- Is the guy's story really true? Does he have these facilities / engineering team? Is the design there, where he claims it to be? Maybe talk with that fired guy, ex-CTO.
- What is the business model, he has in mind? How are we going to earn money and how much? Does he have concrete business goals, or is this some sort of hobby project?
- What can I add to the project?

I hope, we have some seasoned inventors/designers on the forum, who has made such decisions.

I am not sure, if I am questioning the right things and/or if I am neglecting something out of ignorance.

What should I pay attention to in such a startup?

Any answers from experienced designers/inventors are very much appreciated.

I think the first step should be to consider the financials of this startup and the parent company.

Secondly, you must consider what 'ownership' rights you get as a CTO, along with the equity + salary. However, you must be more interested in getting as much equity as possible if the startup's financials are good.

Also, you should talk to the founder and discuss his vision with the project he's building.

You should also think along the lines of Development costs + maintenance costs + other expenses of the startup vs How high is the sales ticket. How long will it take for the startup to become profitable and flourish?

Also, it is important to determine the conditions for your exit from the company. You don't want to be fired as soon as the company hits a big sales ticket, right? So you need some sort of contract that saves and paves your profitable exit in case the project goes south!

I would also suggest you dig deeper and figure out what the competitors are going through. It will give you a broader perspective about the possible future of the startup.

There are many variables and they should be considered to make a smart decision.

 

[cmh]

If you actually want equity, make sure it is an iron clad written contract. I'd absolutely hire a lawyer to get that agreement ironed out. I have seen numerous instances in my industry (also a Mech E) where people were promised equity and it never happened. Now they are 40, 45, 50, and starting from scratch, at least as business owners.

 

[Panos Daras]

What do you exactly mean with "feel free to seperate them from their money"?

Ask them to work there for six figures (dependent on the role/market) with no equity deal.

 

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[Tau Ceti]

Equity in a business (that you do not own) should always be treated the same way as a lottery ticket. It could be worth a lot or it could be worth nothing. Most of the time though it's worth zero because there is no liquid market to sell your shares if you wanted to.

No market == no demand == $0

Don't lower your salary expectations for potential earnings years down the road. Get the cash and then get some equity .

 

[NervesOfSteel]

Equity in a business (that you do not own) should always be treated the same way as a lottery ticket. It could be worth a lot or it could be worth nothing. Most of the time though it's worth zero because there is no liquid market to sell your shares if you wanted to.

No market == no demand == $0

Don't lower your salary expectations for potential earnings years down the road. Get the cash and then get some equity .

Becoming a CTO with no confidence in Equity = JOB!

Equity is the most valuable entity of the startup, after "time".

If the equity of the startup, at present/ potential future, turns out to be of no value, what's the point of even joining, no matter how good the "salary" for the "Job" is?

 

[Panos Daras]

If the equity of the startup, at present/ potential future, turns out to be of no value, what's the point of even joining, no matter how good the "salary" for the "Job" is?

You can get valuable experience from such a role that directly translates into starting your own business.

In fact I would propose to many people in the forum who idolize the starting your own business narrative to try and get a soft training session on what owning a new business actually means by working for a startup first. If they find THAT difficult, maybe multiply by 10 for owning your business.

 

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[Tau Ceti]

Becoming a CTO with no confidence in Equity = JOB!

Equity is the most valuable entity of the startup, after "time".

If the equity of the startup, at present/ potential future, turns out to be of no value, what's the point of even joining, no matter how good the "salary" for the "Job" is?

The point of joining a startup is not to get a potential payday one day, the point is to sharpen your skills and discover new problems that you can then solve with your own skill set that was acquired while working at the startup.

Yes it is a job, but not all jobs are bad. In fact a job can be a good thing until you find an idea and until you get your business off the ground.

So OP if you are looking to get better skills and level up your game, then joining this startup could be good for you. It will force you to learn and push yourself and you can then use your experience to build a business on the side.

Just don't fall for the trap of the equity. Where I am employed they love to bring up the valuation of the shares that they give employees. It 's a cheap morale boost. I refuse to participate in it because I know the value is 0 in fact since there is no way to sell these shares.

But most people at the company, mostly the rank and file employees think that they are gonna get rich because they own a couple hundred shares.

The founders have done a great job, they convinced these people to get less cash for an uncertain future payday that will keep getting delayed because the owners have no intention of selling out anytime soon.

 

[ygtrhos]

The things that speak for this startup is that I am going to start with a successful entrepreneur in a technical field. The guy has proven himself and can teach a lot, if he is what he says. I can also add value with my current skillset and play an important role.

Nobody puts 500k of their own money for nothing. (due diligence necessary)

Without the equity, I would not accept this, unless he gives me 300-400k a year, which is impossible.

I want very high (high salary) or asymmetric returns (equity) for something like this. It makes no sense to work for a startup, if it pays the same money or just 20% more.

It would make sense only if there is equity in place.

I do not really want to "sharpen my skills" in a tech startup. Makes no sense. I would rather pivot to a sales career or go develop some real estate with a safe job's credit leverage or sell some kitchen / solar panels.

@NervesOfSteel @Tau Ceti @cmh have you been in a similar position in a technical startup? If yes, what kind of position?

I thank all of you for dropping your two cents.

 

[NervesOfSteel]

You can get valuable experience from such a role that directly translates into starting your own business.

In fact I would propose to many people in the forum who idolize the starting your own business narrative to try and get a soft training session on what owning a new business actually means by working for a startup first. If they find THAT difficult, maybe multiply by 10 for owning your business.

It's still a job with a Job mindset, no matter how much you sugarcoat it!

If the equity of the startup has little or no value, the "soft experience" is still working for a potentially failing company!

 

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[Tau Ceti]

Nobody puts 500k of their own money for nothing. (due diligence necessary)

That number without context means nothing.

Think about it, if you are Elon Musk and you drop $500K in your friend's startup , does that mean that you believe in the idea or that you are simply a good friend?

It could be option 1 or it could be that $500K is the same as $50 for you because you are rich and therefore even if the company goes belly up, it won't matter.

So money invested is not a good way to look at that IMHO.

Without the equity, I would not accept this, unless he gives me 300-400k a year, which is impossible.

Again, I am not saying to not get equity, I am saying to first get cash and the negotiate equity.
Normally when equity is brought into a conversation it is done with the intent to reduce your cash compensation.

it is a negotiation tool because it means absolutely nothing in real terms. You can't sell it, the valuation is all over the place and therefore it should not be part of your decision.

Think of it as the cherry on top, not as the whole dessert.

I do not really want to "sharpen my skills" in a tech startup. Makes no sense. I would rather pivot to a sales career or go develop some real estate with a safe job's credit leverage or sell some kitchen / solar panels.

I can't pretend to know what you aspire to do or not do. I was just making a point. I have worked in two startups now. These two experiences helped me level my game and now I am using my skills to build my business. I am using the network I have built to get advice and recommendations from people.

Maybe that is not for you. I can't say.

have you been in a similar position? If yes, what kind of position?

Yes, I have been in this position. At my current workplace, they put a lot of emphasis during the recruitment phase about the equity and the shares I could get and they did that because when they came for the offer they were below market rates.

I countered the offer and explained the same thing I am telling you now. I said I am happy to take equity but considering that a cash out is unlikely in the next 5 years, I want a market rate salary and the equity.

They countered again and we found a compromise but the point is that if I had accepted the first offer I would have had to take a pay cut for a potential gain that so far has not manifested itself and will probably not manifest itself in the next few years considering that the market is crap right now.

In the end, you do you.

 

[NervesOfSteel]

Where I am employed

This, my friend, is the reason for a major difference in our thinking patterns! And none of us is wrong!

 

[Tau Ceti]

It's still a job with a Job mindset, no matter how much you sugarcoat it!

If the equity of the startup has little or no value, the "soft experience" is still working for a potentially failing company!

And so what?

Most people on this forum have a job and a side business because they business is not bringing in enough cash yet to survive.

So if you have to work, you may as well work in a place where you can learn and make connections and milk them for everything that could be useful to you in the future.

If the company is failing or not inetresting then that is another discussion but OP seems to think that this could be a good learning experience. Based on that it may not be a bad idea.

You are thinking too much on a short term. This is a marathon not a sprint.

 

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[Panos Daras]

This, my friend, is the reason for a major difference in our thinking patterns! And none of us is wrong!

No man you are wrong. Similar to @Tau Ceti I found many benefits of working at a startup. And I worked in startups also twice. The 2 main benefits are skill building and connections.

For the record, I have also worked in a Fortune 500 company in similar roles.
You do not get nearly as much exposure and responsibilities.

Additionally, for some reason, you demonize getting a job. It can be a magnificent stepping stone to not only building skills and connections as I already mentioned, but also learning from other people's mistakes so you will not do the same in your own company. Even if the company you work for fails, you win because you learn.

Last but not least, do not forget: Where you start is not where you end!

 

[Tau Ceti]

This, my friend, is the reason for a major difference in our thinking patterns! And none of us is wrong!

I run a business and I work at a startup. My thinking pattern is fine thanks.

On the other hand it seems that your thinking pattern is that you can't accept that someone else thinks differently from you.

I will also point out that you haven't demonstrated throughout this entire discussion why OP should not take this job if:
- it pays well
- it is interesting
- OP doesn't have yet a business that needs him more than this job

Anyway I am not here to start flame wars so good luck with your decision OP.

 

[ygtrhos]

Just to give you guys some context: I do not think that this guy has an 8-figure net worth, yet alone Elon Musk.

He runs a good company, has some wealth, maybe a pentamillionaire, but that is pretty much it.

So 500k is very probably a significant amount of money for him.

 

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[NervesOfSteel]

The point of joining a startup is not to get a potential payday one day,

It's morally, logically, and existentially incorrect!

the point is to sharpen your skills and discover new problems that you can then solve with your own skill set that was acquired while working at the startup.

Problem No. 1: Can I be a profitable partner at this startup because it demands my time, my youth, my energy, and other opportunities?

Solution: F*ck being a CTO/Partner, and focus on the salary!

So if you have to work, you may as well work in a place where you can learn and make connections and milk them for everything that could be useful to you in the future.

If the company is failing or not inetresting then that is another discussion but OP seems to think that this could be a good learning experience. Based on that it may not be a bad idea.

You are thinking too much on a short term. This is a marathon not a sprint.

1. I am not here to disrespect the members of the forum here!

2. I am not against side hustles but I am too limited by my gray matter that I cannot perform slavery as a job and be a king part-time as an entrepreneur! I am too simple to even comprehend the balance between both! And I respect people who can achieve both!

For the record, I have also worked in a Fortune 500 company in similar roles.

29.2 million people work for Fortune 500 companies!

On the other hand it seems that your thinking pattern is that you can't accept that someone else thinks differently from you.

I will also point out that you haven't demonstrated throughout this entire discussion why OP should not take this job if:
- it pays well
- it is interesting
- OP doesn't have yet a business that needs him more than this job

Anyway I am not here to start flame wars so good luck with your decision OP.

You're advising OP on a favorable JOB on an entrepreneurial forum, and I am advising him to do research and figure out the Equity value ... an entrepreneurial mandatory ... and I still say we both are correct on our perspective!


I am very glad I did not sell my youth to a Fortune 500 company!

 

[Jobless]

When I see the word 'military' in your post I think: $$$$
If the main market is military, it's interesting. If not, I'd avoid it.

 

[MitchC]

If he’s already half a million euros into the project I’d say there’s sunk cost fallacy at the minimum plus he’s already shown he’s committed and interested in making this thing come to life, as evidenced by the offer and progress so far.

Firing the last guy because he was spending too much time in his own projects makes sense. I would definitely be interested in hearing that guys side of the story.

My first and only concern was really, what are this guys expectations? Like is he willing to dump money into this and pay you for the next 5-6 years if you think that’s how long it’s going to take.

I’d be worried that he expected the last guy to finish in a year, got sick of paying him 8k a month for nothing, and decided his progress wasn’t fast enough because he was focusing on other projects.

Equity will be worth nothing if this guy gives up 2 years in before it’s finished because he’s sick of blowing money on his passion project.

I know this isn’t the most high level thinking but seriously that’s kinda the situation you’re putting yourself in. It isn’t really a startup because it’s not a bunch of guys trying to make something work who have nothing and are fully committed. Really it’s you working on some guys passion project and he’s funding it. If he decides to pull the plug because he’s sick of funding it your work is for nothing.

If you think it can be big I’d be making sure I’m getting paid fairly for my time spent and take a little less equity in return. If it’s going to be big you’ll be rich either way, if he pulls the plug half way through at least you had a cool experience and got paid properly the whole time.

 

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[ygtrhos]

If he’s already half a million euros into the project I’d say there’s sunk cost fallacy at the minimum plus he’s already shown he’s committed and interested in making this thing come to life, as evidenced by the offer and progress so far.

Firing the last guy because he was spending too much time in his own projects makes sense. I would definitely be interested in hearing that guys side of the story.

My first and only concern was really, what are this guys expectations? Like is he willing to dump money into this and pay you for the next 5-6 years if you think that’s how long it’s going to take.

I’d be worried that he expected the last guy to finish in a year, got sick of paying him 8k a month for nothing, and decided his progress wasn’t fast enough because he was focusing on other projects.

Equity will be worth nothing if this guy gives up 2 years in before it’s finished because he’s sick of blowing money on his passion project.

I know this isn’t the most high level thinking but seriously that’s kinda the situation you’re putting yourself in. It isn’t really a startup because it’s not a bunch of guys trying to make something work who have nothing and are fully committed. Really it’s you working on some guys passion project and he’s funding it. If he decides to pull the plug because he’s sick of funding it your work is for nothing.

If you think it can be big I’d be making sure I’m getting paid fairly for my time spent and take a little less equity in return. If it’s going to be big you’ll be rich either way, if he pulls the plug half way through at least you had a cool experience and got paid properly the whole time.

I have met with the guy last week, in his flat on a cute hill around Zurich. That three-story flat alone costs probably around 3-4 millions.

I tried to understand his expectations and understand what I can expect as well.

First of all, the whole thing seems legit. There was really a student group, which local newspapers have written about and they have really tried to make a vehicle. The guy really had CAE drawings and work that was categorized and I will be able to see that with an NDA.

He told about an oceanography institute in Hamburg that wants to buy this device for around 5-6 millions. This should probably "cover the costs", which I agree as well.

About time horizon: he did not really give a time when he wants to see the MVP, but I assume this will be around 1-2 years.

He was absolutely not hesitant about giving me equity, but we did not talk about how much, yet.

I also asked him what I can expect and he said "a secure income" for the next 2-3 years. I should not be expecting a multimillion exit like a software company in a few years.

He also talked about his current company, where everyone is paid well and that "we dont really need more than that" and that they were committed to being everywhere, in the space and in deep sea. (They made some projects for space agencies as well)

All in all, I had the feeling that I was talking with a technically interested guy, who wants to realize a dream but he is not in this for earning money or getting wealthy, which turned me off hugely. It felt very "communal", where I am driven more by greed.

I do not care about my contribution to science or to the society at this point. I am all about what benefit I can offer to get paid as much as possible, not about societal progress or any other altruistic motives.

I already have "a secure income" as an employee, where I work way less and I get paid substantially good. Why would I put so much effort into a gadget that will not really bring me a lot of money? It is just pointless.

 

[cmh]

All in all, I had the feeling that I was talking with a technically interested guy, who wants to realize a dream but he is not in this for earning money or getting wealthy, which turned me off hugely. It felt very "communal", where I am driven more by greed.

This gave me a chuckle. I appreciate your honesty. I've become more this way through the general process of getting jaded, so I understand it. For much of my life I've hated the thought of being a 'money-grubber'. What made me way more serious about money was having to work for a bunch of total slimeballs. I realized that I never want to allow people like that to control me again.

That said, I still subscribe to the Unscripted ideal of creating value for the market.

 

[ygtrhos]

This gave me a chuckle. I appreciate your honesty. I've become more this way through the general process of getting jaded, so I understand it. For much of my life I've hated the thought of being a 'money-grubber'. What made me way more serious about money was having to work for a bunch of total slimeballs. I realized that I never want to allow people like that to control me again.

That said, I still subscribe to the Unscripted ideal of creating value for the market.

Let me guess, you are from a first-world country, right?

 

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[cmh]

Let me guess, you are from a first-world country, right?

I live in the US, so I grew up in a first-world country that is also the main province of a global empire. Now, that empire is dying and the country is getting more third-world each year. Not trying to be political at all, just noticing the steady decline in infrastructure and education over my lifetime.

And you?

Edit to add: I see that you asked me a question and I never responded. I did join a small company once with a promise of equity. I was lured away from a job with pay and benefits for just a job with pay. I was willing to forgo benefits to get equity in a company with big oil and gas earning potential. That got rugged very quickly, and was a big part of my "FTE" that lead me to pour way more effort into my own company.

Now, to be fair, within a few weeks of starting work there, I was unsure if I even wanted equity in that company at all. I've declined equity in one other situation a few years ago because I thought one of the partners was untrustworthy. Now I have several partners in my company, and they are great. Overall, my advice is to cling to the C in CENTS and avoid getting into a position where you are not the main driver and the main beneficiary.

Something else I've learned is that most employees don't in fact want to be owners. I projected onto them and made the mistake of thinking that everyone would want to buy into the company they work at, but that's just not true. Truly, biz ownership isn't for everyone!

 

[ygtrhos]

I am Turkish. I was lucky enough to be born into a upper mid-class family.

Not willing to change the subject here, so I will not dig more into it. Anyone with experience with engineering startups is welcome to comment.