Are moral standards scripted for the poor?

[Dino_saur]

Hello Din here, Found the book and forum yesterday, I consider myself quite awake yet MJ’s book got my stubbornness for working years on my art passion and nothing clicks,

Back to the topic it has been on my mind that the people in control are not ‘educated’ by moral standards.

Are Coca-Cola going to feel bad killing tons of people with sugar?

Are doctors(some) going to feel bad selling you on the most expensive plan to cure you while there are cheaper ways?

The more I look I find more examples like get people addicted on pain killers?
The market just makes money it has no time for morals, perhaps morals are keeping me poor?

up for discussion,
Din

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Mathew Verble]

Mmmm. I think that if you have a strong belief system in any way can certainly slow you down.
Being fluid is extremely important in all endeavors.

The biggest moral compass to business from what I've gathered is are you fulfilling a markets needs/wants.

If you make available something someone wants. Are you morally obligated to tell them they can't have it if it has sugar in it? I think you are probably morally *right* to include a warning label if there's inherent danger. But I'm pretty sure you are legally obligated anyway in most cases.

Pain pills, cigarettes, alcohol (easy low hanging fruit I know) all come with labeling and or warning pamphlets of the dangers. You sign a ton of paperwork for a medical procedure and can ask your Dr or gooogle if there are other avenues.

The consumer has an obligation to use some form of intelligence before making a purchase. If they choose your item to buy, unless you have a monopoly which rarely exists anymore, I dont understand what kind of moral obligation could hinder offering it.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

There are a lot of broad generalizations going on here. It doesn't make any sense as a question.

 

[Private Witt]

I could make an immense amount of money at this point if I broke my moral codes.

Also if I broke governmental laws that I know I most likely could get away with but is just not worth the sweat.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Mathew Verble]

Edit*

I think I misdirected my opinion.
If I'm just looking at *is it scripted*

I def remember as a child some Saturday morning cartoons that would have the *sleezy*salesman with the greased up hair and cigar and suit selling his own grandmother out of her last coin. With a sort of foggy background that always loomed around him.

So I def feel like there is or was a scripted narrative back in the saturday morning cartoon days that selling products made you a *bad guy* and not near as upstanding as the dining room newspaper reading father in the sparkling white kitchen enjoying his 2 days of freedom or caffeinating his 9 to 5 before leaving Johnny and the misses for the day.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

Edit*

I think I misdirected my opinion.
If I'm just looking at *is it scripted*

I def remember as a child some Saturday morning cartoons that would have the *sleezy*salesman with the greased up hair and cigar and suit selling his own grandmother out of her last coin. With a sort of foggy background that always loomed around him.

So I def feel like there is or was a scripted narrative back in the saturday morning cartoon days that selling products made you a *bad guy* and not near as upstanding as the dining room newspaper reading father in the sparkling white kitchen enjoying his 2 days of freedom or caffeinating his 9 to 5 before leaving Johnny and the misses for the day.

Y'all need to listen to the podcast episodes by @Kak regarding this.

It does not pay to be a crook. It simply doesn't. It might appear to work for a little while, but it never works in the end.

Look at Bernie Madoff - he was not a real businessman. He was a scammer. He is now in prison. Or Epstein - we know how that went.

No, you will make the most money by providing real value, not ripping people off with perceived value that does not live up to expectations.

That's bad for your business.

Also, it depends on what your morals are. If you believe that having money is evil, you better quit right now because you're never going to make it. That's not a good moral. However, if you believe in treating people fairly and dealing honestly, that will actually help you.

 

[Dino_saur]

Mmmm. I think that if you have a strong belief system in any way can certainly slow you down.
Being fluid is extremely important in all endeavors.

The biggest moral compass to business from what I've gathered is are you fulfilling a markets needs/wants.

If you make available something someone wants. Are you morally obligated to tell them they can't have it if it has sugar in it? I think you are probably morally *right* to include a warning label if there's inherent danger. But I'm pretty sure you are legally obligated anyway in most cases.

Pain pills, cigarettes, alcohol (easy low hanging fruit I know) all come with labeling and or warning pamphlets of the dangers. You sign a ton of paperwork for a medical procedure and can ask your Dr or gooogle if there are other avenues.

The consumer has an obligation to use some form of intelligence before making a purchase. If they choose your item to buy, unless you have a monopoly which rarely exists anymore, I dont understand what kind of moral obligation could hinder offering it.

So the ‘rich’ made selling questionable items legal by writing their own laws I think. I get your point sir but I always have second thoughts when I see that poor guy lose all his money gambling.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Dino_saur]

There are a lot of broad generalizations going on here. It doesn't make any sense as a question.

Hey man I’m not a smart guy, can you tell me how do I make this question make sense?

 

[Dino_saur]

I could make an immense amount of money at this point if I broke my moral codes.

Also if I broke governmental laws that I know I most likely could get away with but is just not worth the sweat.

Hey man, The moral I’m addressing is more long term or ‘soft’ like a can of coke is not going to kill you but it takes time, Also there are clear things we shouldn’t do and are bad.
Also question for you are there some morals that are not law-breaking or doesn’t hurt people that if you give up can make you more money? Because I’m thinking the same.

 

[Dino_saur]

Y'all need to listen to the podcast episodes by @Kak regarding this.

It does not pay to be a crook. It simply doesn't. It might appear to work for a little while, but it never works in the end.

Look at Bernie Madoff - he was not a real businessman. He was a scammer. He is now in prison. Or Epstein - we know how that went.

No, you will make the most money by providing real value, not ripping people off with perceived value that does not live up to expectations.

That's bad for your business.

Also, it depends on what your morals are. If you believe that having money is evil, you better quit right now because you're never going to make it. That's not a good moral. However, if you believe in treating people fairly and dealing honestly, that will actually help you.

Hey man, I do believe In value and does not suggest harming people or cheating people, like I look at the porn industry, There is always a need. Am I a bad person if I sell porn? But the customers are happy and it’s real value. This is bugging me. An example that is more close to my heart my dad is sick and he is addicted to sugar, all my love can’t stop him from eating cake and drinking coke. Those things have value to him but I know the responsibility is on him, but it takes two hands to clap, this is what’s bugging me.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Dino_saur]

Y'all need to listen to the podcast episodes by @Kak regarding this.

It does not pay to be a crook. It simply doesn't. It might appear to work for a little while, but it never works in the end.

Look at Bernie Madoff - he was not a real businessman. He was a scammer. He is now in prison. Or Epstein - we know how that went.

No, you will make the most money by providing real value, not ripping people off with perceived value that does not live up to expectations.

That's bad for your business.

Also, it depends on what your morals are. If you believe that having money is evil, you better quit right now because you're never going to make it. That's not a good moral. However, if you believe in treating people fairly and dealing honestly, that will actually help you.

I believe honestly is everything you have in business. So if I have to sell candy because the market demands it I just frankly tell them it kills you slowing but it will still sell(maybe even better like cigarettes sell better with warnings) That way I’m a honest man that sell things that make you happy but kills you long term.

 

[Private Witt]

Hey man, The moral I’m addressing is more long term or ‘soft’ like a can of coke is not going to kill you but it takes time, Also there are clear things we shouldn’t do and are bad.
Also question for you are there some morals that are not law-breaking or doesn’t hurt people that if you give up can make you more money? Because I’m thinking the same.

Yah I fit that category as I dabble in multiple industries that are considered vice sectors and there are tons of paths to take to make large amounts of money by selling certain things that both can instantly and take time to destroy my client base.

Yes on the second question, I have personal morals that hold me up from exploiting others. There is no question if I got a little dirty but still inside the law I can change both my personal and business finances greatly, but I wake up every day with no worries about my past and current behavior and just watch all the shitbricks implode themselves and just keep to the moral standards I have both imbedded naturally and developed throughout my life and business journey.

 

[Dino_saur]

Yah I fit that category as I dabble in multiple industries that are considered vice sectors and there are tons of paths to take to make large amounts of money by selling certain things that both can instantly and take time to destroy my client base.

Yes on the second question, I have personal morals that hold me up from exploiting others. There is no question if I got a little dirty but still inside the law I can change both my personal and business finances greatly, but I wake up every day with no worries about my past and current behavior and just watch all the shitbricks implode themselves and just keep to the moral standards I have both imbedded naturally and developed throughout my life and business journey.

Yeah man I feel you, at the end of the day is can you sleep at night.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Matt Sun]

The fact that immoral people can make a lot of money doesn't mean that morality prevents you from doing so as well. There are many examples of moral people that make cash (Mj Demarco to name just 1, but basically every rich organic farmer or producer of goods that don't intoxicate your clients). Like would you say making cars is immoral ? No... And car manufacturers are very rich. I think you are just putting the focus on certain companies instead of others.

I like looking at ways to compete with this companies, like if you made a sweet drink that's also healthy (hint, it exist, it's called kefir).

Just don't get the limiting belief that you must be immoral to succeed when reality is that is not true.

 

[Private Witt]

Yeah man I feel you, at the end of the day is can you sleep at night.

Yes for sure and I'm in media and in the industry public eye and wake up to all sorts of attacks but those who come after me personally with nonsense are making mistakes. I know all about how Ive behaved and while I sleep like crap at night due to insomnia issues, its not because of my behavior. Will not lie there has been temptation as the payoff to be dirty can be huge and easy to get away with the more developed with what you do.

 

[Dino_saur]

The fact that immoral people can make a lot of money doesn't mean that morality prevents you from doing so as well. There are many examples of moral people that make cash (Mj Demarco to name just 1, but basically every rich organic farmer or producer of goods that don't intoxicate your clients). Like would you say making cars is immoral ? No... And car manufacturers are very rich. I think you are just putting the focus on certain companies instead of others.

I like looking at ways to compete with this companies, like if you made a sweet drink that's also healthy (hint, it exist, it's called kefir).

Just don't get the limiting belief that you must be immoral to succeed when reality is that is not true.

Hey Matt that’s a great point, that might me my calling to make a better product not only emotionally valued but also healthy. Yet everything has two sides it’s like how we choose to stand I guess? It seems everything has a bad side if I look for it.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Johnny boy]

Is coca cola bad?

Why is that your decision to make? Who should make that decision? An organization of elected officials? A single leader?

How about the billions of people on earth, each able to choose freely to either buy it or not buy it, and have the freedom to do so?

That's why the free market is so beautiful. It's the original decentralized force. Each man must work for his money. His work makes the money matter to him. His hours and his effort and a piece of his life went into each dollar, and he gets to choose what happens to that dollar. If he decides coca cola deserves his dollar, what moral right do you have over this man? Are you his mother? He is free and should decide what deserves the money he has earned with his time and effort and intelligence.

Together there are billions of economic decisions each day. What to buy, what not to buy, where to buy it, etc. And the people who produce these things are motivated to make good decisions to serve these consumers otherwise they cease to exist. The business owner wants to be rich. He has to produce something of value in an efficient enough way to make a profit. The employee is motived to work doing something reasonable for reasonable pay. He can work anywhere he wants. A job paying $1 an hour would get no takers in america because they can go get something better. So the company has to have an efficient enough system to pay workers a rate at which they will work there, and still make a profit. The consumer is motivated to make good purchasing decisions otherwise he wastes the money he's earned. Each piece of the machine has authentic motivations and each persons decisions are guided by these motivations each and every day. What a beautiful, elegent, justified system.

It's given us every modern luxury and the incredible wealth we enjoy today. Even a person with hardly any skills can work a mindless job and live in a house that has the incredible technologies of electricity, running water, watching tv. It's a miracle and these things exist because of the power of the free market.

The free market is moral because it allows people to make their own decisions.

Your subjective morality is not the authority. You don't get to make decisions for other people. Business people laugh at you talking about morality not because they are bad people, but because they know that manipulative people use 'morality' as a justification for control.

You might say "oh, so the moral compass of our society is the almighty dollar?"

In economic choices, yes. The personal motivations and subjective views of each free man guides their economic decisions. As it should.

 

[ljean]

I am all for having the complete freedom to make my own choices when it comes to food, drinks, drugs, alcohol, etc. However, the dilemma arises when the government uses my tax dollars to subsidize health care. Would I rather pay for my neighbor's lung cancer treatment after 50 yrs of cigarette smoking, or would I prefer that smoking was outlawed...?

 

[Kevin88660]

Hello Din here, Found the book and forum yesterday, I consider myself quite awake yet MJ’s book got my stubbornness for working years on my art passion and nothing clicks,

Back to the topic it has been on my mind that the people in control are not ‘educated’ by moral standards.

Are Coca-Cola going to feel bad killing tons of people with sugar?

Are doctors(some) going to feel bad selling you on the most expensive plan to cure you while there are cheaper ways?

The more I look I find more examples like get people addicted on pain killers?
The market just makes money it has no time for morals, perhaps morals are keeping me poor?

up for discussion,
Din

Complex answer. Yes and No and not the way you think it is.

The stereotype that successful business people are selfish is just plain wrong. People who built large organization hiring thousands of people or more with millions of recurring revenue from millions of satisfied customers, are selfish people pursuing their own agenda and interest only? Chances are successful business people are on average much much less selfish than average people.

Lying and cheating your way do not work. If you sell sth expensive people are already assume you might be cheating them, when you even aren’t. So it is not as easy as you assume. Customers are not idiots either.
The more successful you are the chances are you are more ethical than your competitors and you treat them better, and far more ethical than average joe on the street.

The way that business people might be seen as “immoral” because business people hace to be more “flexible” and not confined to the rigid rules that people get indoctrinated from schools since young. If you have the mindset that you only cross the road when the light is green then nothing gets done, and probably you are best suited working for a government bureaucracy.

Successful Founders are often accused “stealing an idea from someone”, spamming ads on platforms and public spaces when they have no marketing budget, putting some marketing spin to market themselves without telling outright lies when they need their first customer or investors badly…Civilian values and code of conduct cannot help you survive in a war zone. You have to be “street smart” and play dirty when the circumstances dictate.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Guest-5ty5s4]

The way that business people might be seen as “immoral” because business people hace to be more “flexible” and not confined to the rigid rules that people get indoctrinated from schools since young. If you have the mindset that you only cross the road when the light is green then nothing gets done, and probably you are best suited working for a government bureaucracy.

This is a really good point.

There is a severe lack of creativity and the ability to be a "self starter" with most people.

People who fall into that average category are going to view you as "immoral" simply for breaking out of a box!

It doesn't even have to be something bad - it could be as simple as finding a new way to do something, but they still don't like that. You have to be willing to think differently.

 

[Mattie]

Hello Din here, Found the book and forum yesterday, I consider myself quite awake yet MJ’s book got my stubbornness for working years on my art passion and nothing clicks,

Back to the topic it has been on my mind that the people in control are not ‘educated’ by moral standards.

Are Coca-Cola going to feel bad killing tons of people with sugar?

Are doctors(some) going to feel bad selling you on the most expensive plan to cure you while there are cheaper ways?

The more I look I find more examples like get people addicted on pain killers?
The market just makes money it has no time for morals, perhaps morals are keeping me poor?

up for discussion,
Din

i believe for myself I believe you can have a business with morals. It just depends on the product or business. There's lots of materialistic objects or products you can design and make it out of earth's resources.

Your always going to find both sides of the coin in the business world in any social class.

I think if your talking about the poor, there is looting, hustling, stealing, even murdering and going to the Pawn shop. I wouldn't consider this moral. I had a friend killed by this scenario because someone stole their property.

Middle class can do the same thing by stealing stuff from the wealthy neighborhoods and blending in easily.

I wouldn't even assign a social class to the question. It's more of an individual basis of what they decide for themselves is moral or immoral in the way they interact in society, do business, and who they associate themselves with in general.

 

[Deleted70138]

How about the billions of people on earth, each able to choose freely to either buy it or not buy it, and have the freedom to do so?

That's too primitive of a thinking. Sucrose affects gut bacteria and fungus (E.g. Candida), which later signals your brain to take more refined sugar. Also, there are so many cognitive biases exploited by corporations, that "freedom of choice" can't really exist among laity.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Kevin88660]

This is a really good point.

There is a severe lack of creativity and the ability to be a "self starter" with most people.

People who fall into that average category are going to view you as "immoral" simply for breaking out of a box!

It doesn't even have to be something bad - it could be as simple as finding a new way to do something, but they still don't like that. You have to be willing to think differently.

Airbnb get the growth started by spamming on craglist with bots. Uber Ceo had assigned staffs to sign up competitors apps and jammed them with fake request to paralyze them. These happened in the early days when they had limited resources and used method that might be seen as unscrupulous.

I am not saying that you should agree and applaud their behavior. But the average business people is not, and should not be someone who only cross the road when the green light is on. Or else they will achieve nothing.

 

[WJK]

So the ‘rich’ made selling questionable items legal by writing their own laws I think. I get your point sir but I always have second thoughts when I see that poor guy lose all his money gambling.

The point is that the poor guy has a choice here. He doesn't have to gamble. He can make another choice. It's not the rest of the world's obligation to take care of him when he acts against his interests. You cannot save a person from themselves.

 

[Dino_saur]

I am all for having the complete freedom to make my own choices when it comes to food, drinks, drugs, alcohol, etc. However, the dilemma arises when the government uses my tax dollars to subsidize health care. Would I rather pay for my neighbor's lung cancer treatment after 50 yrs of cigarette smoking, or would I prefer that smoking was outlawed...?

Hi ljean, I think in this case the government is using the ‘healthcare moral reason’ to collect more of your tax money.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Dino_saur]

Complex answer. Yes and No and not the way you think it is.

The stereotype that successful business people are selfish is just plain wrong. People who built large organization hiring thousands of people or more with millions of recurring revenue from millions of satisfied customers, are selfish people pursuing their own agenda and interest only? Chances are successful business people are on average much much less selfish than average people.

Lying and cheating your way do not work. If you sell sth expensive people are already assume you might be cheating them, when you even aren’t. So it is not as easy as you assume. Customers are not idiots either.
The more successful you are the chances are you are more ethical than your competitors and you treat them better, and far more ethical than average joe on the street.

The way that business people might be seen as “immoral” because business people hace to be more “flexible” and not confined to the rigid rules that people get indoctrinated from schools since young. If you have the mindset that you only cross the road when the light is green then nothing gets done, and probably you are best suited working for a government bureaucracy.

Successful Founders are often accused “stealing an idea from someone”, spamming ads on platforms and public spaces when they have no marketing budget, putting some marketing spin to market themselves without telling outright lies when they need their first customer or investors badly…Civilian values and code of conduct cannot help you survive in a war zone. You have to be “street smart” and play dirty when the circumstances dictate.

Hi Kevin, Yes I agree I feel like making money is like a war with other business and products , the idea of being ‘fair’ will cripple you in the war zone. And that’s the point competition will strike if they see that crack in you.

 

[Dino_saur]

This is a really good point.

There is a severe lack of creativity and the ability to be a "self starter" with most people.

People who fall into that average category are going to view you as "immoral" simply for breaking out of a box!

It doesn't even have to be something bad - it could be as simple as finding a new way to do something, but they still don't like that. You have to be willing to think differently.

Yes thechosen1, Uber was seen immoral from my place from the local taxi drivers XD

 

[Dino_saur]

i believe for myself I believe you can have a business with morals. It just depends on the product or business. There's lots of materialistic objects or products you can design and make it out of earth's resources.

Your always going to find both sides of the coin in the business world in any social class.

I think if your talking about the poor, there is looting, hustling, stealing, even murdering and going to the Pawn shop. I wouldn't consider this moral. I had a friend killed by this scenario because someone stole their property.

Middle class can do the same thing by stealing stuff from the wealthy neighborhoods and blending in easily.

I wouldn't even assign a social class to the question. It's more of an individual basis of what they decide for themselves is moral or immoral in the way they interact in society, do business, and who they associate themselves with in general.

Hey Mattie, Yes I agree everyone has their own bar, when A and B are both picking apples if A invented a ladder and pick more apples B can decide to call him cheating or make a ladder himself. It all comes to the ‘average’ people since we morally agree the more people do a thing it becomes ‘right’ Yet I think average joe is not too smart and can be manipulated easily like watching TV. If B is a master on manipulating masses A using a ladder is going to be ‘immoral’ to a large group.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Dino_saur]

That's too primitive of a thinking. Sucrose affects gut bacteria and fungus (E.g. Candida), which later signals your brain to take more refined sugar. Also, there are so many cognitive biases exploited by corporations, that "freedom of choice" can't really exist among laity.

Hi Zaratustra, Yes that’s what I mean saying it takes two hands to clap. Products are weaponized and improving daily by a large group of smart people Vs you the consumer. Like Instagram is designed to be as addictive as possible.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

Yes thechosen1, Uber was seen immoral from my place from the local taxi drivers XD

Oh and it still is. New York City politicians like Alexandria O'casio Cortez (AOC) wanted to keep Uber out of the city to protect the unions - even though the people wanted Uber.

It's dumb, really.