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You guys are too hard on Higher Education, in my opinion. Here’s why.

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GoGetter24

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Interesting that even in a society with so much higher education, nobody is taught that...

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Correlation doesn't imply causation.
Correlation doesn't imply causation.
Correlation doesn't imply causation.
 
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MJ DeMarco

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A lot has changed in just a few short years.

The % of degrees that have ZERO economic value or cultural demand is probably greater than three-fourths, or 75%. So instead of educating our youth, the university system has become an indoctrination camp, propagandizing our youth to be useful idiots ready to join the ranks of the victim ideology and the party that panders to it.

Yes, I'm hard on "higher education" because higher education has gone from degrees in electrical engineering, medicine, and computer programming to philosophy, political science, and gender studies.

The latter is NOT worth any kind of debt. Period. And I don't give a damn what any chart manufactured by a government organization says.

poor-me.jpg
 

ChrisV

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I also see that university has brought me:

• networking skills

• ability to sort and criticize fake / false news

• open to new ideas and challenging theories

• work ethic and problem solving skills.

While a lot of these skills are not quantifiable, I feel like their importance should not be over looked. I don't think that I would have ever seeked out books like Unscripted or learned to do personal research if it wasn't for the environment and network that University put me in.

YES YES YES. The ability to sort Fact from Bullshit is literally the most valuable skill I’ve ever learned. And in college, that is pounded into your head. Where’s your reference? Is it a credible source? Are there studies to back that up? Did the Author of those studies have any conflicting interests that might bias their results? Any financial interests? Who did the study? How

Many participants were in the study? Was it double blinded and placebo controlled?



I don’t know where I’d be without the scientific method.



PNzk0JA.jpg



Philosophy taught me about Logical Fallacies and reasoning.

RHR7NB1.jpg



Anecdotal vs Empirical evidence. Academia simply taught me how to get to the bottom of truth. It taught me how to distinguish fact from faction which is literally the most valuable skill I have.





But let me also clarify this, which I’m not sure if I mentioned I never went to college in the thread... I didn’t go to college. I take online classes from reputable colleges online for the sake of enrichment. But what they teach in those MOOCs is the same class they teach in campus. But I have a tremendous respect for academia as a whole. For example I’ve taken many courses from Harvard (many were FREE,) and let me tell you Harvard is an amazing brand. They care so much about education and value it so much. People have a totally incorrect perception of Harvard. They’re seen as elitist, stick up, complicated, and they’re actually the complete opposite. If you’re from a family who makes under $65,000/yr… between their scholarships and FAFSA, you literally pay nothing. Your tuition is literally $0.

But even pdf you have to pay full price, tuition at Harvard is only about 45K, which is about average.

From their site: Amount that parents making less than $65,000 are expected to contribute. Ninety percent of American families would pay the same or less to send their children to Harvard as they would a state school
wWdSF0Q.png


chc95Zo.png


Cost of Attendance | Harvard College


Harvard is a great brand. They truly care about education and bettering the world, and I’ve gotten tremendous value from their classes. I took their famous CS50 and Justice classes just for fun. They offer tons of their famous courses for free on their site. That being said, if I had to pay tens of thousands of dollars for what I’ve learned from Academia, I would probably feel different.
 

ChrisV

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The % of degrees that have ZERO economic value or cultural demand is probably greater than three-fourths, or 75%. So instead of educating our youth, the university system has become an indoctrination camp, propagandizing our youth to be useful idiots ready to join the ranks of the victim ideology and the party that panders to it.

@MJ DeMarco

yiHoioR.jpg
 
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ChrisV

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A lot has changed in just a few short years.

The % of degrees that have ZERO economic value or cultural demand is probably greater than three-fourths, or 75%. So instead of educating our youth, the university system has become an indoctrination camp, propagandizing our youth to be useful idiots ready to join the ranks of the victim ideology and the party that panders to it.

Yes, I'm hard on "higher education" because higher education has gone from degrees in electrical engineering, medicine, and computer programming to philosophy, political science, and gender studies.

The latter is NOT worth any kind of debt. Period. And I don't give a damn what any chart manufactured by a government organization says.

View attachment 20925
But that’s also anecdotal. Sure, a certain percentage of people haven’t gotten their value out of a degree, but what about the people who have? For us to make valid inferences we have to at the whole picture.

I agree that Academia has somewhat become a liberal shitshow. All these assholes at Colombia or Brown with their safe-spaces and trigger warnings and cry-baby victim mentality have really skewed the academic realm.


And I don't give a damn what any chart manufactured by a government organization says.

Okay trust me, I value and respect your perspective and opinion, otherwise I wouldn’t even be here and I actually agree with a lot of what you’re saying... but I’ve spent years studying Data Science and to say "any chart manufactured by a government organization" is to literally accuse the Bureau of Labor Statistics of data fraud. It’s widely known that college graduates, on average, earn more. Pew Research Center and Gallup Polls (which are literally the two most highly respected data science firms in the country, who are not affiliated with the government at all) have similar findings.

A2p4GjN.png


rX4A3rv.png




VLclfWF.jpg


c6ywl2j.jpg


Note how the areas with low levels of educational attainment are the same areas that have high levels of poverty. They’re nearly mirror images.

Like I said, I do respect your perspective and opinion on this, but College Graduates just earn more. I agree, it’s still a slow lane approach, but College graduates, on average, simply make more than non-grads. You may have personally had a bad experience with college, but that’s not necessarily representative of the average. It’s one data point out of millions. To answer the question of “is a degree worth it” we can’t just look at one or two or even 10 samples... we have to take a representative sample.

Trust me, I had a bad experience with college too. I went for my Business Administration degree and after a couple months I’m like ‘are you freaking serious? i could have learned 10x more if i just cracked open a book.”... which is what I ended up doing. It’s also worth noting that I went to a Community College thinking it would be the same thing (big mistake,) and private colleges are 100x better.

Now how the specific degrees add up is a different story, and it’s always been well known that a Liberal Arts degree only serves to waste paper, and that same paper would have been more valuable if it were turned into say... toilet paper.... those aren’t the only degrees offered.

From a survey:

QgA40RX.png

VPY8ZxD.gif

To say that a degree is completely worthless is a little bit of a longshot. If there was a button that could download all the knowledge attained in 4-8 years of college, and also give you the certificate.. pushing that button would have no value? Maybe your situation is unique, but it would have no value to other people either?

A lot of people feel their degree was worth the money.

cIvsMYX.png


I also agree that what I’ve learned via online classes was very valuable, even though I don’t have the piece of paper proving my knowledge.

The causal reasons for success are complex. Success does suffer a ‘filtering’ effect. In other words it’s hard to figure out if someone is successful because they went to Harvard, or if they went to Harvard becasue they’re successful. The evidence seems to point to both having an impact, the latter being stronger. But I can write an entire topic on that itself.
 

MTEE1985

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I don’t believe anybody is trying to say that a degree is worthless, what I’m seeing with higher education is that degree programs are being created for no other reason than to have them. (You mean I can’t make $250k or go fastlane in gender studies MJ?)

I agree with @ChrisV in that employees can add a tremendous amount of value. Down here in Tucson we have Raytheon employing thousands of engineers, scientists etc. who are all “highly educated” and who do in fact provide lots of contribution. There are lots of people out there who cannot fathom not being an employee and for them, yes, better to be the employee with a piece paper that says they’re “smarter” than others.

Where we go astray as a society is the notion (and government urging) that college guarantees success regardless of your major.
 

socaldude

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Another way of looking at it is asking if college isn't being too hard on it's students? What about the government?

They're overcharging for an outdated and useless education.

Charge $50k or $100k then teach you something useless?

How is that for value and customer service?
I think thats worse than someone who has the balls to question academia. :smuggy:
 
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SteveO

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Okay trust me, I value and respect your perspective and opinion, otherwise I wouldn’t even be here and I actually agree with a lot of what you’re saying... but I’ve spent years studying Data Science and to say "any chart manufactured by a government organization" is to literally accuse the Bureau of Labor Statistics of data fraud. It’s widely known that college graduates, on average, earn more. Pew Research Center and Gallup Polls (which are literally the two most highly respected data science firms in the country, who are not affiliated with the government at all) have similar findings.
I usually try to avoid getting into these discussions. It really is a matter of opinion. But, here goes.

Seems to me that the people that are disciplined enough to work hard and get through the higher education process are the same ones that would still produce without that education. Most jobs can be learned though.

AND... you are talking jobs. Some of us don't talk jobs.
 

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Got any charts for business owners?
 

ZCP

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I have an engineering degree. I own several businesses. Does that mean my degree got me the money?
Kind of ...... first business was an engineering consulting business.

My dad had a CS degree. He eventually sold real estate and built houses. Does that mean his degree got him the money? No.

My 13 yr old told me last night that he had to have a 4 year degree to get a real estate license and sell real estate. Wonder who told him that? Teacher with a degree. Is she a real estate person? No. Has school / grandparents / ads online / tv told him he has to get a degree to get ahead? Yes. Does he need to? No.

I think we 'bang on education' for what it has become ...... high school 13th grade. No rhyme or reason to a career. A way for the college / university / state to make money. It no longer serves its purpose because ALL of the sheep are told to go. (Some people just don't need to be in University.) Blue collar is bad. Trades are bad. College football gets a lot more play than Mike Rowe.

What if instead of debating the worth of a degree, we spent our time teaching kids how to add value?
That is what I am doing......

Then the system would sort itself out. Kids would pay for what they needed to be able to add value. Not what they were told worked when their grandparents were coming into adulthood.
 
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Chromozone

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@ChrisV

I think there's a little bit of a misrepresentation here.

I don't think anyone is saying that education is bad or evil. It has its place and a lot of the technologies we take for granted today came from Universities and very educated folk.

The bigger picture that I got from Unscripted and TMF is that the market doesn't give a poo about your education.

The market is selfish and wants what it wants.

So, yes go to Uni or College, but go in with your eyes open and don't dare complain when your BS degree doesn't even provide enough value to society that you can't afford to move out your mothers basement.
 

AFMKelvin

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@ChrisV

I think there's a little bit of a misrepresentation here.

I don't think anyone is saying that education is bad or evil. It has its place and a lot of the technologies we take for granted today came from Universities and very educated folk.

The bigger picture that I got from Unscripted and TMF is that the market doesn't give a poo about your education.

The market is selfish and wants what it wants.

So, yes go to Uni or College, but go in with your eyes open and don't dare complain when your BS degree doesn't even provide enough value to society that you can't afford to move out your mothers basement.

Nailed it.
 

ChrisV

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I usually try to avoid getting into these discussions. It really is a matter of opinion. But, here goes.

Seems to me that the people that are disciplined enough to work hard and get through the higher education process are the same ones that would still produce without that education. Most jobs can be learned though.

AND... you are talking jobs. Some of us don't talk jobs.
Jobs and businesses are the same thing when boiled down to their essence. As an employee you’re selling your services to an employer in the same way your mechanic sells his services to you.

It’s just a long term contract that’s paid a flat rate.

But yes, I do understand this is an entrepreneurial forum.

Seems to me that the people that are disciplined enough to work hard and get through the higher education process are the same ones that would still produce without that education. Most jobs can be learned though.

There is some research to suggest that this is true, to an extent. But at the end of the day, if you want to be a physicist, you need the training. If you want to be an electrician, you need the training. Hard work pays, but so does experience. With experience you can get jobs done faster increasing your productivity and increasing the value you provide. So a slightly lazy veteran electrician might make more than a hardworking newbie.
 
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rollerskates

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I'm a big fan of education, but not necessarily school. For instance, getting a degree in gender studies and then being $150K in debt is not the kind of education that's useful.

Getting an MD is useful. But honestly, if people could just be minimally educated to communicate using logic and think critically, society would be far better off.
 

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Jobs and businesses are the same thing when boiled down to their essence. .....
Then you are missing the fastlane component. Reread the books. Slow down. Open your thinking. See things from a different perspective.
 

ChrisV

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@ChrisV
The bigger picture that I got from Unscripted and TMF is that the market doesn't give a poo about your education.

The market is selfish and wants what it wants.

So, yes go to Uni or College, but go in with your eyes open and don't dare complain when your BS degree doesn't even provide enough value to society that you can't afford to move out your mothers basement.
What about when the market needs say.. Data Scientists. That’s a good example because Data Scientists are in high demand and low supply, so there’s a goldmine there. Same with Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning. So how do land a position doing Data Science AI or ML without training?

Same with nurses, physicians, psychologists, astrophysicists, engineers, neuroscientists, etc.
 
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SEBASTlAN

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The good thing about having a higher education, though, is that you've a skill which allows you to work in an industry, and you end up with domain knowledge.

90%+ of the time you can gain that skill outside of school for a fraction of the cost and time.
 
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ChrisV

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Then you are missing the fastlane component. Reread the books. Slow down. Open your thinking. See things from a different perspective.


No, I get it. Listen, I’m on your guys’ side. Buttttt, sometimes I feel like the rhetoric around here can err on the side of:

“Going to college and getting job is for brainwashed idiots You’re going to just graduate with massive amounts of debt and have to wait tables the rest of your life and even if you DO make it.. you’re going to be a 9-5 slave corporate whipping boy the rest of your life and have to give back rubs daily to Upper management”

And I think a more moderate/balanced approach would be healthy. Like

“Listen, college certainly isn’t the best way to millionaire status. You want to become a millionaire? Start a business. One that fills a market demand that’s scaleable and can be automated. So college definitely isn’t the best way to million, but it can help you build a skillset that can help you build a pretty damn good life for you and your family.”

College Grads make more. Period. There’s not a shred of data to suggest otherwise. I don’t think it’s fair to paint the “go to college, get a job” thing as such a horrible fate that’s just as bad as slavery.

What about people who work at Apple? Or Google? Or Tesla.

Again, like I said.. I’m on your guys’ side totally love the idea of running businesses.

That being said, I would accept a job at Tesla in a minute. Imagine every day going to work knowing that your products are literally saving the planet and changing history. Or Space X. Literally being part of the team that helped colonize Mars. I think that’s actually more exciting than the Graphic Design company I’m currently running.

And while we’re on the subject of Space X or Tesla.. good luck safely getting a rocket into space without a PhD in physics

That being said, Elon Musk has specifically said he doesn’t care if someone went to college or not


But THAT being said, I don’t know how much I trust a self-taught physicist, in the same way I’m not sure I’d trust a self-taught surgeon or psychiatrist. I mean it would be nice to live in a world where your skills were all that mattered, but the reality is most em
 
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ChrisV

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95% of the time you can gain that skill outside of school for a fraction of the cost and time.
How are you going to prove that on a resume? That only works if you want to start a business. Not everyone wants to start a business.

In the employment market, it’s hard to submit a resume that says "I’m really good at Microbiology... trust me.”

Compare that to say “graduated with Honors from Princeton with a PhD in Microbiology 2004 - 2012” Having the degree from a reputable University shows that you passed all those classes and have that knowledge from a legal, degree granting institute.
 
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I have 4 college degrees and I use them every day -- just NOT like my colleges intended.
The internet has opened up the possibility of doing a Fastlane business. That didn't exist when I was younger. And almost everything was closed to women until the mid-1970s. So, here's my take on college...
1. It's your education. Use it how you see fit. Bend it. Mold it. Ride it as far as it will take you. Then fill the gaps with additional education.
2. A college degree isn't worth as much anymore with the availability of online education.
In the past, few had the luxury of going to college. Barbers & priests did the doctoring. Rich men did the attorney, accounting and administrative work for the rulers. Almost no one could read except for a select few. Society needed job skills (farmers, smiths, potters, carpenters, warriors, etc.) -- not thinking skills. Now it's reversed.
3. Most professional fields require a lot of specialization. The colleges, for the most part, are way behind the times.
4. Education has become the ultimate personal choice. I love all the information available. This is a golden time to be alive. The gatekeepers have lost their power!

ABOUT-^-GATEKEEPER.jpg

I spend a lot of time everyday educating myself. You should never stop learning!
 

SteveO

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Jobs and businesses are the same thing when boiled down to their essence. As an employee you’re selling your services to an employer in the same way your mechanic sells his services to you.
Don't agree. Seems that we will not be on the same page. Not necessary for me to respond anymore.
 

ChrisV

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Don't agree. Seems that we will not be on the same page. Not necessary for me to respond anymore.
It’s all trade. You’re trading your services for their money. There’re differences but From a philosophical perspective, it’s simply a trade.
 
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Chromozone

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What about when the market needs say.. Data Scientists. That’s a good example because Data Scientists are in high demand and low supply, so there’s a goldmine there. Same with Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning. So how do land a position doing Data Science AI or ML without training?

Same with nurses, physicians, psychologists, astrophysicists, engineers, neuroscientists, etc.

Lol, I am a physician! :rofl:

(But, I'm not going to hand over my future to an employer!!)

I think you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

Everyone agrees education has its place. The world does really need more (good) physicians.

But you are completely ignoring the fact that many many people hate their job, don't have any money, don't have time to spend with their family, are literally wasting their lives away when they could be doing so much more.

You're a data scientist - why don't you look into the correlation (and yes causation in this case) between the modern education system/job market and anxiety/depression/suicide rates.

I can point you towards some studies if you would like. :p
 

ChrisV

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I can point you towards some studies if you would like. :p

I would love that. Shoot. I’m actually really interested in reading these.

And no, I’m not even arguing really. I agree with and subscribe to the Fastlane approach for the most part. Again, I just feel like it’s healthy to see both sides.

At the end of the day, regardless of your trade a job is going to give you a steady stream of work and clients, but there are tradeoffs be cause you’re at the mercy of that employer and how they want to treat you. You have to play by their rules and follow their directions because they’re the one who holds the bag of treats.


Or you can throw it all away, build your own database of clients and not be beholden to anyone. It’s hard work and it’s risky and there are lots of ups and down, but if you do it right you don’t owe anybody anything.

And yes, a lot of people hate their jobs. But a lot of people love their jobs too.

mDO2gFJ.gif


My point is mainly, while it may not be for us - some people are happy with going to college then getting a job.

My feeling on this really come from the fact that I have such a tremendous respect for the academic community and academia (as a physician you’ll likely appreciate this,) and the empirical way of thinking that comes with it. I have such a great respect for these universities and how much work the scientific community done for humanity that I just don’t think it’s fair to get on their case. So much of the society we know enjoy and love, wouldn’t be possible if it weren’t for the role universities play.
 
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ChrisV

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I have 4 college degrees and I use them every day -- just NOT like my colleges intended.
The internet has opened up the possibility of doing a Fastlane business. That didn't exist when I was younger. And almost everything was closed to women until the mid-1970s. So, here's my take on college...
1. It's your education. Use it how you see fit. Bend it. Mold it. Ride it as far as it will take you. Then fill the gaps with additional education.
2. A college degree isn't worth as much anymore with the availability of online education.
In the past, few had the luxury of going to college. Barbers & priests did the doctoring. Rich men did the attorney, accounting and administrative work for the rulers. Almost no one could read except for a select few. Society needed job skills (farmers, smiths, potters, carpenters, warriors, etc.) -- not thinking skills. Now it's reversed.
3. Most professional fields require a lot of specialization. The colleges, for the most part, are way behind the times.
4. Education has become the ultimate personal choice. I love all the information available. This is a golden time to be alive. The gatekeepers have lost their power!

ABOUT-^-GATEKEEPER.jpg

I spend a lot of time everyday educating myself. You should never stop learning!
I love you. This is my favorite reply in the whole thread. A formal education is becoming obsolete because of the internet.
 
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MTEE1985

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Am I going crazy or is everybody basically arguing the same point?

Nobody is saying college is a necessity to succeed and nobody is saying college is the dumbest thing in the world.

Everybody seems to be saying it is not the one size fits all solution that society portrays it to be.

Check out this excerpt on confirmation bias (which I believe MJ writes about in Unscripted ) while this is in reference to investing, I see a strong correlation to our education system, where the time and money spent on education leads to a perception of greater ability and greater value to the world but in reality there is a certain point where it is mostly fluff. (Outside of being an MD etc. as previously mentioned)
 

SteveO

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I worked for HP. I had a PhD chemist, electrical engineer with a master's degree, and mechanical engineer working for me in the R&D department. I was in charge of over 40M in test equipment along with the failure analysis direct reports. I also had as many as 20 technicians, all with degrees working for me at one time. I did not even have a 10th grade education.

I went to work there as an assembler and janitor on the night shift. I rapidly worked my way though the ranks. Even though the successes were mounting, I quit to move on to my own businesses. All the others remained... making less money and enjoying less freedom.

I am a small sampling of the statistics. But, this was my experience and colors my perception.
 
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MJ DeMarco

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To say that a degree is completely worthless is a little bit of a longshot.

So you post a chart on fallacies then lob up a fallacy? LOL.

That's called a strawman.

You won't get ANYONE here to say that a degree is completely worthless. That's absolutism. Binary logic.

If someone wants to pay $X thousands for a college degree in Art History, that's their prerogative. Or data science. Or law. Whatever.

Not sure why you've posted this particular thread here (your other stuff is actually quite good) you'd probably get a better reception at Reddit, just make sure you drop in the popular buzz phrases like "pay your fair share" and "pay gap" - that will ensure maximum upvotes.

And BTW, as I mentioned in Unscripted , the charts you've posted don't mean shit.

A student that can get into Harvard will not be kept out of Harvard.

A student who is learning disabled and/or low-IQ and/or struggles acclimated to a structured environment that can't get into Stanford, won't go to Stanford.

There's the basis for your government charts.

Who's going to make more moola? Duh, most likely the kid that got into college.

You'll NEVER find any real data to support your theory because there is a self-filtering process in place.

Booksmart, above-average intelligent, "normal" students go to college, their lower-IQ, rebellious (not to mention impoverished) and less-structured peers do not.

The data is paramount to saying...

Studies show that students born with 2 legs run faster than those born with 1!

Duh.

What about when the market needs say.. Data Scientists. That’s a good example because Data Scientists are in high demand and low supply, so there’s a goldmine there. Same with Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning. So how do land a position doing Data Science AI or ML without training?

Same with nurses, physicians, psychologists, astrophysicists, engineers, neuroscientists, etc.

J-FN-C... another strawman.

No ONE here has ever said college is absolutely worthless, regardless of the major or degree.

I'm not going to have another pointless debate about college, especially when you're argument is based on binary logic and strawman arguments.

Am I going crazy or is everybody basically arguing the same point?

Yes, with the premise of the strawed statement of "A college degree is worthless" whereas NO ONE here is saying that, including me.

Thread closed and over.
 
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