You Don’t Have to be a Freelancer

[Kak]

3 thoughts:

1. The beautiful people have it so easy, don't they?

2. I think it counts. More people should pony up for the INSIDERS.

3. Only $7k? Bro, step it up. Let's go! It's called the FASTLANE forum not the 7k cakewalk. You've had 90 whole days. Sharpen that pencil. You're basically proving Kak's point that copywriting skills don't mean much. Them good looks don't last forever.

Who am I kidding, you're probably going to age like fine wine...

#makeFLFtoughagain

You think I’m trying to shit on people. I’m not. I’m trying to help them see alternatives and understand that they don’t have to settle. Make no mistake that’s what this is.

This forum was founded on principles that form a solid business. CENTS. We used to take no prisoners with MLM crap and affiliate marketing.

CENTS is totally ignored now. It’s not an objective measurement any longer. Now it’s all about “feelings.”

Again I say, you’re an unskilled idiot until you’re not. I’m helping people out of that problem not helping them wallow in it.

So berate me all you want, you of all people know deep down where my heart is on this.

 

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[Carlitos]

I came here because I received a notification that my name was mentioned, I couldn't find it, lol I was about to leave when i decided to start reading this thread. The reason why I didn't want to read it was because i now hate copywriters lol ( Will explain here)

But first is an honor that @BizyDad has mentioned me I almost cried seriously. Is a lonely road being an entrepreneur, and is a lonely position being on top. I actually embraced the loneliness, but there are times you want to be at least recognized for your hard work.


A few months back I hired a copywriter, I paid $500 for 600 words. This was supposed to be an amazing copy for a service I was trying to push more for. I decided to keep the copy, we are messing around with the pictures, structure of the page to see how it performs between now and June. By June if I don't see improvements we are changing the copy only.

Keep in mind I also do understand that design wise, structure etc of the page is also important. I am not a copywriter by any means, but I did write a copy for my bread and butter service, and I was closing a lot of leads like crazy, The next day the page was published I was already generating leads organically lol

With AI now I strongly believe copywriters, content writers are done. I am actually trying to get more in to AI to see how I can incorporate this in to my business. I don't know where to start, is a lot of information.

 

[Xavier X]

@Kak I think you have a good point, and mean well for those you're offering advice. To preface, I'm not involved in copywriting. However, you might be overselling the doom and gloom of a freelance or copywriting path, for beginners.

We can all agree these things aren't "entrepreneurship," in the actual sense, but it's one step in the right direction.
You've said, "you’re a unskilled idiot until you’re not," a few times, but also contradicted that a few times.

If someone who writes like a 12-year old can't make $100/hr copywriting (like you said), what stops them from acquiring the skill to do so? They're an unskilled idiot, until they're not, right? I started learning Spanish in my early 30s, and can now have conversations in Spanish. In that same way, the non-native English speaker, who writes like a 12-year old can sharpen his command of the language.

You make it sound as though copywriting/freelancing is an entrepreneurial death sentence. Like if they engaged it at the onset of their journey, they've somehow excluded themselves from any future business success. You go on to challenge people to name any former copywriter who has succeeded in the business world. I'm not sure how you arrived at this assertion, but I find it odd. It's nearly like saying "show me someone who held a 9-5 and later succeeded in an unrelated business."

If anything, an independent copywriter or freelancer is closer to being an entrepreneur/business owner than a 9-5er. These people offer a service, manage client acquisition, offer customer service, issue quotes, invoices etc. Again, while these aren't "entrepreneurs," in the ideal sense, they're executing the same self-driven processes required for true entrepreneurship.

Combine that with an ability to earn an income doing so, I'd say it's decent practice for the real deal. Whether they fail in business or succeed in other fields depends on their own individual business ideas and its execution. Their failure would have little or nothing to do with their start as a copywriter or freelancer.

Once again, I think you mean well, and it's a mostly valid point, it might just be oversold.

 

[Lex DeVille]

@Kak I think you have a good point, and mean well for those you're offering advice. To preface, I'm not involved in copywriting. However, you might be overselling the doom and gloom of a freelance or copywriting path, for beginners.

We can all agree these things aren't "entrepreneurship," in the actual sense, but it's one step in the right direction.
You've said, "you’re a unskilled idiot until you’re not," a few times, but also contradicted that a few times.

If someone who writes like a 12-year old can't make $100/hr copywriting (like you said), what stops them from acquiring the skill to do so? They're an unskilled idiot, until they're not, right? I started learning Spanish in my early 30s, and can now have conversations in Spanish. In that same way, the non-native English speaker, who writes like a 12-year old can sharpen his command of the language.

You make it sound as though copywriting/freelancing is an entrepreneurial death sentence. Like if they engaged it at the onset of their journey, they've somehow excluded themselves from any future business success. You go on to challenge people to name any former copywriter who has succeeded in the business world. I'm not sure how you arrived at this assertion, but I find it odd. It's nearly like saying "show me someone who held a 9-5 and later succeeded in an unrelated business."

If anything, an independent copywriter or freelancer is closer to being an entrepreneur/business owner than a 9-5er. These people offer a service, manage client acquisition, offer customer service, issue quotes, invoices etc. Again, while these aren't "entrepreneurs," in the ideal sense, they're executing the same self-driven processes required for true entrepreneurship.

Combine that with an ability to earn an income doing so, I'd say it's decent practice for the real deal. Whether they fail in business or succeed in other fields depends on their own individual business ideas and its execution. Their failure would have little or nothing to do with their start as a copywriter or freelancer.

Once again, I think you mean well, and it's a mostly valid point, it might just be oversold.

I no longer view freelancing or copywriting as a step in the right direction for entrepreneurship.

What almost always happens is people start freelancing, but can't get it off the ground, so they either keep freelancing indefinitely for side cash or they quit. When I talk to them years later, they're back in a job or doing nothing.

The people who succeed with freelancing were always going to succeed regardless of where they started. So they might as well spend their time taking swings at business rather than learning a skill to sell so they can eventually have enough money someday to take swings at business.

Learning copywriting was good for me, but I think success would've come faster if I never started freelancing. That said, I didn't get my start in freelancing, and I was always going to succeed...

For most people, freelancing is a huge time suck with little payoff. They're constantly prospecting for clients, not getting responses from clients, can't figure out what they're doing wrong, lack problem-solving skills so they can't overcome their limitations. Even when they do get clients, they make low pay, earn just enough to get by (but usually not even that much) and end up giving most of their time to clients. They spend the rest of their time trying to get more clients.

Forget learning copywriting, freelancing with ANY skill is a time suck that doesn't pay off for most people. And that's when they're using Upwork which practically hands you clients on a platter.

That's what I've seen.

 

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[BizyDad]

You think I’m trying to shit on people. I’m not. I’m trying to help them see alternatives and understand that they don’t have to settle. Make no mistake that’s what this is.

This forum was founded on principles that form a solid business. CENTS. We used to take no prisoners with MLM crap and affiliate marketing.

CENTS is totally ignored now. It’s not an objective measurement any longer. Now it’s all about “feelings.”

Again I say, you’re a unskilled idiot until you’re not. I’m helping people out of that problem not helping them wallow in it.

So berate me all you want, you of all people know deep down where my heart is on this.

I said no such thing. I don't think you are dumping on people. I said you dump on an industry and a skill set. And you are.

It is one thing to try and open people's minds to other possibilities. That's really cool of you.

But repeated rants about freelancing being a terrible starting point are both off the mark and not helpful.

Doesn't owning burger franchises violate CENTS? I mean, if you want to champion CENTS, then champion it.

But wait, owning several Burger King sounds like a good idea to me. Not everything always has to adhere to CENTS. I see having a CENTS business as the goal, not the starting point.

Now how does one get the skills? Go to school, read, get a job, freelance, or start a business. Ok, maybe starting with a bonafide business is the best place to start. Ok. But does that mean that reading or freelancing is a terrible starting point?

It really depends on the person. We all got to go through what we got to go through in life to get to where we're going to get to.

Forget learning copywriting, freelancing with ANY skill is a time suck that doesn't pay off for most people.

This is something that can be said about starting a business too. It really doesn't pay off for most people.

Winner gonna win, learners gonna learn, earners gonna earn. But that doesn't mean that they should all start with a cents business. Some people gonna start start off with Amazon FBA or a marketing agency, Or they're going to start by reading The Millionaire Fastlane , and that's okay too...

I think you and Kak suffer from the bias of having "made it" and from your vantage point on the mountaintop, you can see way better paths up mountain. I'm not even saying you guys are wrong necessarily.

But to the person starting off at the bottom, putting one foot in front of the other, whether that is reading a book, getting a job, freelancing, or starting a business, the most important thing they could do is take those steps. They have to walk their path. They can't see the path you see. Or maybe they see it, and they don't feel like they have the endurance or the gumption to face it. So they take a path they think they can handle.

And that's okay. But like you said, the important thing is not to get stuck there.

For anybody reading this, keep taking the steps you need to take to get you where you want to go. And it doesn't matter if more successful people tell you you are doing it wrong. It's your life. No one else is going to hike your mountain road for you. Do what you got to do. The most important thing an entrepreneur can do is make their own mistakes and learn from them.

We blast guys like Dave Ramsey for giving advice that they didn't follow themselves. But in this Lex and Kak are both in that boat now. And I think that's funny.

I came here because I received a notification that my name was mentioned, I couldn't find it, lol I was about to leave when i decided to start reading this thread. The reason why I didn't want to read it was because i now hate copywriters lol ( Will explain here)

But first is an honor that @BizyDad has mentioned me I almost cried seriously. Is a lonely road being an entrepreneur, and is a lonely position being on top. I actually embraced the loneliness, but there are times you want to be at least recognized for your hard work.

Bro. Keep going homie. You're not alone. I'm rooting for you. You can DM me anytime you need to talk.

Shoot, you could probably DM Kak or Lex too. They're good dudes and know more about a lot of stuff than I do.

Do me a favor. I couldn't find your thread, but can you please share it here in this one so people can read your progress?

 

[Carlitos]

Bro. Keep going homie. You're not alone. I'm rooting for you. You can DM me anytime you need to talk.

Shoot, you could probably DM Kak or Lex too. They're good dudes and know more about a lot of stuff than I do.

Do me a favor. I couldn't find your thread, but can you please share it here in this one so people can read your progress?

Here it is Boss, just recently updated it, this year i will be able to updated more, I will share my company name, and a lot of you guys would be able to follow my channel. I will be doing more of a Vlogging style.

I actually have a local youtuber that's wanting to interview me lol I'm holding it up a bit for the right time but is coming.

HOT! - EXECUTION - Signed a lease on a shop (Service Shop in the Auto Industry)

I been putting off this thread for a while already. All though I do keep a diary on this business journey, ideas, issues and solutions that comes along mostly everything gets documented in it. It would be nice to also have an execution thread here in TFLF. If you go back to a few of my threads...

www.thefastlaneforum.com

 

[Kak]

Doesn't owning burger franchises violate CENTS? I mean, if you want to champion CENTS, then champion it.

But wait, owning several Burger King sounds like a good idea to me. Not everything always has to adhere to CENTS. I see having a CENTS business as the goal, not the starting point.

It wasn’t a guy owning a few franchises thing. It was a guy built 5 restaurants thing. It is his own chain. Agreed that buying franchises violates control and some of them like Chick Fil A violate time and scale too.

My point with him as an example was that was a guy that got to learn from one of the most profitable restaurant models on the planet and apply some of what he learned to his own venture.

He’s a PERFECT example of someone who looked at his job as a learning experience instead of a dead end way to make ends meet.

We blast guys like Dave Ramsey for giving advice that they didn't follow themselves. But in this Lex and Kak are both in that boat now. And I think that's funny.

I think this had something to do with the burger franchise CENTS thing you misunderstood. But I’m not “giving advice I don’t follow.” I think you implying hypocrisy here is off base.

Shoot, you could probably DM Kak or Lex too. They're good dudes

Correct. I’m inspired by ambitious people that will do what they can to make things happen and always happy to help.

 

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[Carlitos]

Correct. I’m inspired by ambitious people that will do what they can to make things happen and always happy to help.

What part of Texas you in?

 

[NeoDialectic]

You think I’m trying to shit on people. I’m not. I’m trying to help them see alternatives and understand that they don’t have to settle. Make no mistake that’s what this is.

This forum was founded on principles that form a solid business. CENTS. We used to take no prisoners with MLM crap and affiliate marketing.

CENTS is totally ignored now. It’s not an objective measurement any longer. Now it’s all about “feelings.”

Again I say, you’re a unskilled idiot until you’re not. I’m helping people out of that problem not helping them wallow in it.

So berate me all you want, you of all people know deep down where my heart is on this.

I understand your and @Antifragile point of view, but I think you guys may be having difficulty empathising with those that aren't wired the same way as you. Not only that, but not everyone has the same values or end goals.

I may agree with alot of what you espouse, but no matter how technically "correct" your advice is; For those that aren't as driven as you, it just sounds like your screaming from an ivory tower.

Advice like "have you ever sold anything online or worked for yourself" is meant to meet people where they are at.

To give an example outside our field....Smokers know that they just have to quit. Duh. You aren't uncovering some deep lost knowledge on them if you told them that. It's just a choice bruh. Just stop..... For some people that even works. But for many people, finally quitting involved a much more turbulent path that involves alot of trial/error, baby steps and bite sized chunks. You clean your room one paper at a time.

 

[Kak]

I understand your and @Antifragile point of view, but I think you guys may be having difficulty empathising with those that aren't wired the same way as you. Not only that, but not everyone has the same values or end goals.

I may agree with alot of what you espouse, but no matter how technically "correct" your advice is; For those that aren't as driven as you, it just sounds like your screaming from an ivory tower.

Advice like "have you ever sold anything online or worked for yourself" is meant to meet people where they are at.

To give an example outside our field....Smokers know that they just have to quit. Duh. You aren't uncovering some deep lost knowledge on them if you told them that. It's just a choice bruh. Just stop..... For some people that even works. But for many people, finally quitting involved a much more turbulent path that involves alot of trial/error, baby steps and bite sized chunks. You clean your room one paper at a time.

I know you haven’t been here very long, but this forum used to be a place for big dreams. This forum used to be a place that helped others who were legitimately interested in bigger things. Countless people were chasing big and cool things. That energy was still there at the 2020 meetup.

Today there is very little legitimate interest in bigger things. There is frankly little interest in entrepreneurship in general. It’s all odd jobs, side hustles, freelancing and 100k a year dreams.

I view this move as a disappointment. I know countless people that have spent time here and started great entrepreneurial ventures. People who would even, to this day, credit this forum with cutting that learning curve. It always pissed me off that they would just evaporate after, but that’s another discussion.

The spirit of the forum has changed. I’m now unreasonable for thinking we should be helping others make bold moves instead of being a clapping seal when they decide to chase a $500 a month freelance gig. That mentality is not going to attract the real life changing helpfulness out of other entrepreneurs, and my patience for being "the unreasonable one," for sharing and encouraging the truth about how people actually build wealth, is waning.

Heck, it worked for me! But now I'm "ivory towers and gated neighborhood Kak" that "doesn't understand." You're right, I don't. I don't understand why we are burying the truth.

We, as entrepreneurs, are supposed to be unreasonable. Being reasonable is to be accepting of the status quo. I’m concerned my actual entrepreneurial ambition has expired here. I find that to be a shame.

 

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[BizyDad]

What are your current favorite progress threads @Kak?

Still wondering. I rattled 10 off the top of my head while drowsy. I think entrepreneurship is still happening here on this forum. Maybe it is less than previous, I really haven't been around long enough to say.

But I remember when I first joined up, I would see you commenting on other people's progress threads. I don't see that anymore. Maybe we're just not following the same threads...

It's from me on the outside looking in, it's just my perspective, that at some point you limited your interaction to the rant thread, your radio show, and a handful of other topical or "garbage, make jokes" type of threads.

I know you haven’t been here very long, but this forum used to be a place for big dreams. This forum used to be a place that helped others who were legitimately interested in bigger things. Countless people were chasing big and cool things. That energy was still there at the 2020 meetup.

Today there is very little legitimate interest in bigger things. There is frankly little interest in entrepreneurship in general. It’s all odd jobs, side hustles, freelancing and 100k a year dreams.

I view this move as a disappointment. I know countless people that have spent time here and started great entrepreneurial ventures. People who would even, to this day, credit this forum with cutting that learning curve. It always pissed me off that they would just evaporate after, but that’s another discussion.

The spirit of the forum has changed. I’m now unreasonable for thinking we should be helping others make bold moves instead of being a clapping seal when they decide to chase a $500 a month freelance gig. That mentality is not going to attract the real life changing helpfulness out of other entrepreneurs, and my patience for being "the unreasonable one," for sharing and encouraging the truth about how people actually build wealth, is waning.

We, as entrepreneurs, are supposed to be unreasonable. Being reasonable is to be accepting of the status quo. I’m concerned my actual entrepreneurial ambition has expired here. I find that to be a shame.

People come on here, make big proclamations, and get laughed at. Mocked.

And now we're wondering why people aren't sharing big dreams here?

And we all know that once big business gets going, it gets harder and harder to maintain or disclose on threads.

Maybe it is a shame that things aren't as they used to be. But being the forum Grandpa commiserating about the good old days isn't exactly helping. No one is asking you to be a seal (although that does sound like a shot at people).

I wonder if you opened up your think bigger coaching program if you would have a different perspective on what was going on around here. Maybe entrepreneurship is still happening and you just not seeing it in the same way as 2020.

 

[Kevin88660]

Forget learning copywriting, freelancing with ANY skill is a time suck that doesn't pay off for most people. And that's when they're using Upwork which practically hands you clients on a platter.

That's what I've seen.

Any skill?

 

[Fox]

I know you haven’t been here very long, but this forum used to be a place for big dreams. This forum used to be a place that helped others who were legitimately interested in bigger things. Countless people were chasing big and cool things. That energy was still there at the 2020 meetup.

Today there is very little legitimate interest in bigger things. There is frankly little interest in entrepreneurship in general. It’s all odd jobs, side hustles, freelancing and 100k a year dreams.

I view this move as a disappointment. I know countless people that have spent time here and started great entrepreneurial ventures. People who would even, to this day, credit this forum with cutting that learning curve. It always pissed me off that they would just evaporate after, but that’s another discussion.

The spirit of the forum has changed. I’m now unreasonable for thinking we should be helping others make bold moves instead of being a clapping seal when they decide to chase a $500 a month freelance gig. That mentality is not going to attract the real life changing helpfulness out of other entrepreneurs, and my patience for being "the unreasonable one," for sharing and encouraging the truth about how people actually build wealth, is waning.

We, as entrepreneurs, are supposed to be unreasonable. Being reasonable is to be accepting of the status quo. I’m concerned my actual entrepreneurial ambition has expired here. I find that to be a shame.

I relate to this POV also and see where you are coming from. Back when I first joined the forum there were a lot of "going for millions" treads and there was a strong entrepreneurial vibe for sure.

Which has dropped off.

But then the question becomes... what does the forum do about it? And how much can be done?

Pretty much every younger guy I know these days who is crushing it has a "head down" mentality. They are in general low key and don't post too much on social or online in general. The idea of documenting on a forum is maybe not that appealing.

This might just be the next generation coming up who has to weight up the pros versus cons of sharing online.
Cancel culture, communism mindsets, hate mobs, mass outrage and so on.

Back ten years ago this was not the case. Forums were the place for connecting with like minded people and shooting the sh*t. But nowadays a lot of that is done behind closed doors in tight circles or private groups.

So there is a cultural shift here. And the nonsense of the last few years has probably accelerated it. Look at Mr Beast and the reaction to his recent eye surgery video - the top 1% achieving dudes are massive targets.

If I had to guess why some of the younger guys on here who have absolutely crushed it don't post more often - it would be this. It is a risk versus rewards equation and as much as they love the forum its hard to be documenting the journey regularly.

To me this means either two things:

- Someone goes out and interviews BIG Fastlane style people and puts that content front and center on the forum to set the vibe. Basically a massive pump of fresh Fastlane blood and inspiration.

- And/or a private or elite part of the forum for top members to connect with (and for new members to aim for).

But... this requires a ton of work from MJ and I don't think it is reasonable to expect him to do anymore for free.
So things are at a bit of a stalemate in that direction.

The thing with the freelancing is that it is what is left in the vacuum. If the new freelancer folk had the inspiration and guidance to keep progressing on to bigger things, then it wouldn't be an issue.

*If* I ran the forum this is probably what I would do.

- Weekly free interviews from top outside Fastlane style people posted up on the forum

- INSIDERS group at $XXX per month where people can jump on calls and network etc. The price tag would be to maintain the rest of the forum and ensure an excellent INSIDERS service with lots of activity.

But, MJ is a saint to run this forum for years the way he has and managing those ideas would be nearly a fulltime job.

@Kak, these are just my own ideas. I am curious what you could see being done also.

 

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[Xavier X]

I agree with Kak that a lot of the recent threads have tilted toward "I'm 15 years old with no skills, and want to make $800 million in 13.5 months" types. Big dreams, but no elements or credentials to make it sound plausible.

On the other hand, I also agree with BizyDad, as I've seen many threads where a new member presents a lofty idea or goal. Even with credentials suggesting they can pull it off, it's sometimes dismissed or even mocked by more established members.

So there's certainly a bit of simultaneous pushing and pulling happening on the forum at times.

 

[NeoDialectic]

I know you haven’t been here very long, but this forum used to be a place for big dreams. This forum used to be a place that helped others who were legitimately interested in bigger things. Countless people were chasing big and cool things. That energy was still there at the 2020 meetup.

Today there is very little legitimate interest in bigger things. There is frankly little interest in entrepreneurship in general. It’s all odd jobs, side hustles, freelancing and 100k a year dreams.

I view this move as a disappointment. I know countless people that have spent time here and started great entrepreneurial ventures. People who would even, to this day, credit this forum with cutting that learning curve. It always pissed me off that they would just evaporate after, but that’s another discussion.

The spirit of the forum has changed. I’m now unreasonable for thinking we should be helping others make bold moves instead of being a clapping seal when they decide to chase a $500 a month freelance gig. That mentality is not going to attract the real life changing helpfulness out of other entrepreneurs, and my patience for being "the unreasonable one," for sharing and encouraging the truth about how people actually build wealth, is waning.

We, as entrepreneurs, are supposed to be unreasonable. Being reasonable is to be accepting of the status quo. I’m concerned my actual entrepreneurial ambition has expired here. I find that to be a shame.

I don't personally think there is anything unreasonable about being bold or having high aspirations. I also don't think @BizyDad or others are implying that anyone should temper their aspirations. The primary pushback that I am seeing is the strong implication from your posts that it is the only path. There is room here for the people wanting to run a fortune 500 with 1000s of employees and those aspiring to a small business with as few employees as possible. Both can be wildly successful at fulfilling a person's values.

Your voice here is an important one. Plenty of people are ready for your message, which may be what jumpstarts their progress.

I've got a thread that I believe is as clear of a step by step as you can get in one thread on how to find a ecommerce product and get them off the ground asap with minimal requirement for investment. We have used the same exact process to start a new line of products that are already selling! Any of the people passing it by could have been in our current shoes! Yet with 100s of likes, I think only 2 or 3 people are even talking about trying it out in the thread. I used to link new people to it to get them going, but nowadays, I find myself linking a more primitive and more straightforward message, but a powerful one: @Andy Black JUST START thread. It just meets people where they are at that much better. @fastlane_dad and I have been brainstorming how we can better reach these people where they are at and take them to the Promise Land, but it's a tough needle to thread.

Maybe a good compromise could involve better policing of general areas and sorting things into the subforums? I know I rarely step into the investing forum as I don't agree with most of the conversations on there as they relate to wealth (crypo mania and basically gambling). Would it bother you if people are talking about copywriting in the copywriting subforum?

 

[Kevin88660]

I relate to this POV also and see where you are coming from. Back when I first joined the forum there were a lot of "going for millions" treads and there was a strong entrepreneurial vibe for sure.

Which has dropped off.

But then the question becomes... what does the forum do about it? And how much can be done?

Pretty much every younger guy I know these days who is crushing it has a "head down" mentality. They are in general low key and don't post too much on social or online in general. The idea of documenting on a forum is maybe not that appealing.

This might just be the next generation coming up who has to weight up the pros versus cons of sharing online.
Cancel culture, communism mindsets, hate mobs, mass outrage and so on.

Back ten years ago this was not the case. Forums were the place for connecting with like minded people and shooting the sh*t. But nowadays a lot of that is done behind closed doors in tight circles or private groups.

So there is a cultural shift here. And the nonsense of the last few years has probably accelerated it. Look at Mr Beast and the reaction to his recent eye surgery video - the top 1% achieving dudes are massive targets.

If I had to guess why some of the younger guys on here who have absolutely crushed it don't post more often - it would be this. It is a risk versus rewards equation and as much as they love the forum its hard to be documenting the journey regularly.

To me this means either two things:

- Someone goes out and interviews BIG Fastlane style people and puts that content front and center on the forum to set the vibe. Basically a massive pump of fresh Fastlane blood and inspiration.

- And/or a private or elite part of the forum for top members to connect with (and for new members to aim for).

But... this requires a ton of work from MJ and I don't think it is reasonable to expect him to do anymore for free.
So things are at a bit of a stalemate in that direction.

The thing with the freelancing is that it is what is left in the vacuum. If the new freelancer folk had the inspiration and guidance to keep progressing on to bigger things, then it wouldn't be an issue.

*If* I ran the forum this is probably what I would do.

- Weekly free interviews from top outside Fastlane style people posted up on the forum

- INSIDERS group at $XXX per month where people can jump on calls and network etc. The price tag would be to maintain the rest of the forum and ensure an excellent INSIDERS service with lots of activity.

But, MJ is a saint to run this forum for years the way he has and managing those ideas would be nearly a fulltime job.

@Kak, these are just my own ideas. I am curious what you could see being done also.

It could be just a seasonal once in a decade entrepreneurial interest in the past.

When entrepreneurship looks cool on TV with sharktank reality show there will be new blood coming in with big ideas.

As things are often easier said than done. Many will quit. Some who took a big financial loss need time to recover, through working at a job. The minority winners as you said, not all will disclose their progress for various personal reasons.

As the past 3-4 years the virus, and broad economic uncertainty is no friendly towards those who took more risk in business, even many business owners are shifting towards survivor mindset now. It is not strange that business as a whole is not attracting ambitious newcomers.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Would it bother you if people are talking about copywriting in the copywriting subforum?

We have this, and have had it for years, it just isn't labeled "copywriting".

 

[Antifragile]

Is a lonely road being an entrepreneur

It doesn’t have to be lonely. FYI.

PS I stand with @Kak on this, 100%.

@NeoDialectic I appreciate your tag and response. I hear you. Yet, I feel that being ambitious and “unreasonable” with our aspirations is the definition of a entrepreneur mindset. We create great things.


With that… I’m done with this topic. Do whatever the hell you want, is my message. You’ve been warned. Don’t think small or you’ll remain small forever.

 

[Andy Black]

We have this, and have had it for years, it just isn't labeled "copywriting".

View attachment 46986

Dammit. I never even saw this subforum. I may start moving progress threads there.

 

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[heavy_industry]

I never even saw this subforum.

I think it's because there are 5 huge panels at the top of the site that make up 50% of the page height on desktop.

I think a lot of users don't even scroll down to the subforums categories, and they just browse the forum by viewing the latest posts in the top panel (statistics).

 

[Andy Black]

Is there a difference between going out on your own doing carpet cleaning / lawn care vs doing web dev / short videos?

Aren't they all forms of self-employment? You have to get clients, have to provide a service, have to get paid, have to deal with troublesome clients and non-payers/late-payers, and eventually hit a ceiling where you can't earn any more for your hours worked, even after raising prices. Then you need to figure out how to scale using various business models that likely include people, processes, and technology.

 

[PureA]

I think it teaches a lot of transferable lessons to be a 'freelancer'. Often it is the best opportunity someone has.

People get comfy with it though, like anything.

I see guys making 300k+ on upwork without building any systems or infrastructure to hire/scale/productise (blows my mind). Maybe they are happy with where they are?

At 18 I couldn't get my mind around people not wanting to build the largest, profit-spewing business that they could. Why would you ever get a job? I thought to myself...

Now, I totally see why people desire jobs. Imagine switching your brain off at 5pm and all weekend... certainty of a stable paycheck.. etc

There is a spectrum, like anything. But for perhaps 95%+ of the population they are never going to run a business and don't desire to either. And for some of us, employment isnt even an option. It's homeless or success.

Freelancing is somewhere in the middle, for some its their destination, and they're happy. For some its a stepping stone.

There is some survivorship bias at play here, but I totally agree. You couldn't imagine Jack Dorsey, or Elon running a web design agency to get started...

I think entrepreneurship is intuitive to some of us, some us not. And for those that could be a great entrepreneur but don't have the initial intuition, freelancing is a great place to get a feel for things and teach you a few lessons along the way whilst earning a bit of cash.

 

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[BizyDad]

Jack Dorsey got his massage license 4 yrs before Twitter was founded.

Why is it so hard to think of successful people as once having struggled to figure out what they were going to do next?

Elon's origin story is so riddled with @Kak isms it actually is striking. For example, Elon once held a job that required him to wear a bonafide hazmat suit. And his first company was built by "partnering" with a bigger company to use their software so he could build what he wanted to bring to market.

 

[Kevin88660]

Jack Dorsey got his massage license 4 yrs before Twitter was founded.

Why is it so hard to think of successful people as once having struggled to figure out what they were going to do next?

Elon's origin story is so riddled with @Kak isms it actually is striking. For example, Elon once held a job that required him to wear a bonafide hazmat suit. And his first company was built by "partnering" with a bigger company to use their software so he could build what he wanted to bring to market.

Just looking at a pure business perspective it really depends on what is the difference between freelancing and a business…the line is not clear cut.

1) It could be a simple criticism on the choice of business and industry. White collar free lancing like web design and copywriting is saturated while physical labor self employment like car washing is not.

2) It could be a criticism on scalability. Freelancing generally have limited scalability compared to scalable business. But again it is not too bad afterall. You could always hire more freelancer and convert them into employee later and you have a more scalable business for yourself.

3) Freelancing grows too slowly without manpower and capital injection, which cost money. I think this is true barrier that stops most people from doing a business in a classical sense, with some industry experience and products that passed product market fit, started renting office and hiring more staffs.

Not having the money is one thing. The fear of losing the money is also another point, and often valid. Many people jumped into the food business, signed a one year lease and renovated the place, hired chef, bought machine, and eventually lost money or end up in debt.

Most people are not ready for heavy investment due to lack of industry experience and missing product market fit. Going back to the food business experience if someone made good money 2-3 years of good money self made selling ice cream on the cart in the neighborhood he or she good be a good position to expand the business and take some more financial risk. But before that happens he or she looks more like a solopreneur/freelancer pushing ice cream carts in the neighbourhood.

 

[Oso]

Figure I'll weigh in here, as someone fighting themselves with this.

Quick background: worked mostly retail, construction, and warehousing growing up. Always interested in tech, never went to school for it. Practiced coding growing up here and there, but nothing in-depth. I earned my full stack web development certification at 32 (34 now). I've never wanted to own an agency myself.

First developer job: realized how stupid simple it is to run a "marketing" company. The difficult part is running a GOOD marketing company. One that provides real, legitimate value. Anyway, I left my first dev gig and started picking up random clients here and there to host myself. Nothing fancy, but I provided value I could prove. I quickly got to the point of my "freelancing" paying for my monthly bills. I capped it as I never wanted to risk it turning into a full-blown "agency."

Now: sometime recently, I messaged @Andy Black about PPC. He recommended I offer it to clients, despite the fact this may force me into more of an "agency" position. I followed his advice (though I ended up getting a few certifications after-all, sorry Andy, I sold out!). Learned it well enough to feel confident offering it as a service. Offered it, had a few clients in a few weeks, and a handful or two of reviews a couple of months later.

Unfortunately, I am slowly turning into an agency, but I'm training and guiding my people as well as possible. I have to as we're completely remote. Communication is key. I estimate once I hire on 2-3 more people, I can focus solely on ensuring my team is good and the business grows.

I considered myself a freelancer at the very beginning. I consider myself an extremely small "business owner" now (screw you, it's a legitimate LLC, lmao).

Back to the post: I love being able to work from home, I'll completely admit it. If/when I have another child or two, it'll be even sweeter. That said, I have always wanted to offer a "physical service," so to speak, but lack current skills in said industries/fields.

Not to mention there is a knowledge gap between myself and Google. What I mean is, I remember @Johnny boy mentioning he has a friend that creates headstones; something along those lines (please correct me if I'm wrong). That sounds fascinating and I'd love to look into something similar, but let's be real: outside of Google'ing "THINGS I CAN DO WITH DEAD PEOPLE" (which might have the FBI looking at you), how would one potentially find these opportunities?

Not to make excuses, as I'm sure a large portion of people jump on internet businesses because "they're easy," and/or "you can charge people XX,XXX and do NOTHING! HAHAHAHA!" Just take a look at websites for "marketing companies." You'll quickly tell which ones are (probably) worth the money and provide value, vs which ones make you wonder how they've been in business for so long. Still, there are opportunities that exist, but you'd never find them unless you randomly heard about it, worked in/with a connecting industry, etc.

I don't want to drop years of tech experience to learn how to be a plumber, despite the fact I'd ultimately want to be doing something with my hands. At least, something that doesn't have me sitting in front of my computer with my dick in my hand for 15 hours/day.

Cheers.

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

There are some great points in this thread from both @MJ DeMarco and @Kak .

To address the subject matter at hand: I’d never recommend someone without good English skills to become a copywriter as their freelance job. And I turn many people away almost weekly in my Discord server or on here who ask if that’s what they should do. And I don’t mean good English as a second language skill, but rather good English as a first language.

Many people would point to me and say that I started selling copywriting at 15/16, while ignoring the fact that I was educated in English my whole life, despite not being from an English speaking country. I speak English better than my native language, lived in the UK for many years, AND write better than 95% of native speakers. Back in school I found writing very easy.

I’d write for fun. Writing 1,000 words would take me 30 minutes and it took other people hours. I wanted to earn some money, asked myself what my best skills were at that point, writing was one of them, I researched what’s the most effective way to make money with writing, and came across copywriting. I didn’t even know what that was at first, I honestly thought it had to do with copyrights LOL!

Now going back to your point @Kak - you seem to want to advise people to start CENTS based businesses faster, without necessarily getting a job or freelancing before. But I’m not sure what the advice is. You’ve said you did it and gave your example as well as that of a few other people. But aside from making people think that it’s doable there isn’t much advice in there about how to get started on this journey.

Most of the members here based on my data (which I’ve collected from years of selling stuff on the forum) are from outside of US. So put yourself in not the poorest country but not the richest either. Say Italy…

You’re a 20 year old in Italy, you’re just finishing your degree, and you want to be entrepreneurial and start a CENTS based business. What do you do? What are the steps?

I’m not asking for “go to xyz bank” kind of steps, but general steps. What activities would you be involved in to first find the CENTS based activity and then get started with it? Reading the newspaper? Attend Rotary networking events? Researching online?

I think helping people with the first steps towards doing this is the way to go if you want to promote more CENTS. When I was 20 and living in the UK, I desperately wanted to start a CENTS based business. But I didn’t have a clue how. So I kept freelancing and making $3-10K/mo from that. And if I didn’t know how I’m quite sure most people don’t at that age. I had (well, have I guess) an official IQ of 160, got admitted to Oxford, quite a smart guy. And still I had no clue how to do this.

It’s not that people don’t want to start CENTS businesses, very often it’s that they don’t know HOW.

 

[Andy Black]

Now: sometime recently, I messaged @Andy Black about PPC. He recommended I offer it to clients, despite the fact this may force me into more of an "agency" position. I followed his advice (though I ended up getting a few certifications after-all, sorry Andy, I sold out!).

You sell out!

Unfortunately, I am slowly turning into an agency,

You don't have to become an agency. I've no desire to create an agency.

A productised service? Yes.

Run ads to my own products? Yes.

Lots of ways to monetise Google Ads skillz.

 

[Simon Angel]

What's with this thread? If people want to freelance and are fulfilled doing that, they shouldn't feel ashamed or sit in silence.

I'd wager the freelancers/solopreneurs/whatever here are some of, if not THE best around.

And people here can connect with said freelancers, work with them on a project, and get incredible value in return. After all, not every one of the aforementioned goes about their work with a TMF mindset.

Freelancers who can actually get shit done are scarce and in VERY high demand. And I love that I have established a valuable, in-demand skill that I can fall back on.

Do I want to do this for the rest of my life? Certainly not.

But my goals in life aren't just related to business. And, for the time being, I make more than enough money for my needs and wants with 1 hour of copywriting/email marketing per day on average. And I continue to earn more and more for that same amount of time as I renegotiate my deals with my clients.

An amount, might I add, that is significant here in Bulgaria. I've done the math and to get the same quality of life I have here but in the U.S., I'd have to earn $100-150K per year while working for 1 hour per day. I could only imagine if I was from a third-world country...

Oh, and the taxman here takes 10% of your profit.

I second what @NeoDialectic said. People have different values. For you, @Kak, it looks like entrepreneurship is something you've tied to your identity and continually find meaning in. For someone like me, it's more of a means to an end than some higher calling.

 

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[rpeck90]

I think the point @Kak was making is that it's fine to get seed money together, but there's a difference between aspiring to "live at the beach" and building a business that has assets & intellectual property. The latter is more difficult because it requires investment in time and money. Starting out may look the same, but the results are different.

Much of the kickback seems to be from people who see "freelancing" as a CENTS business, when it isn't. I believe the book "The E-Myth" covers the topic in depth. @Kak's point is that there is a whole world of opportunity out there; having the means to go and get your piece of the action shouldn't be limited to an obscure skill you've learned to monetize. You need to think big - employees, systems, products, advertising, innovation, risk.

The reason "copywriting", in particular, is popular is because there is zero downside. As @Black_Dragon43 pointed out - some people are born to write. Some people can write exceedingly well, sometimes in languages not native to them. If you're one of these people, and are naturally drawn to writing, then by all means pursue it. The barrier to entry is basically zero, meaning anyone can attempt it. If you can blend it with "real world" expertise, you may be able to make a decent living from it. But a decent living is not a multi-million, or multi-billion, dollar business.

I think helping people with the first steps towards doing this is the way to go if you want to promote more CENTS. When I was 20 and living in the UK, I desperately wanted to start a CENTS based business. But I didn’t have a clue how. So I kept freelancing and making $3-10K/mo from that. And if I didn’t know how I’m quite sure most people don’t at that age. I had (well, have I guess) an official IQ of 160, got admitted to Oxford, quite a smart guy. And still I had no clue how to do this.

The process for building a business is thus: -

1. Hustle
2. Product
3. Scale

"Freelancing" comes in the hustle phase. CENTS comes in the "product" phase.

Most people are stuck in step 1 because they're not "real" entrepreneurs. Real entrepreneurs will do 1 to get 2; for example Howard Hughes spent some time employed at American Airways before buying TWA.

The big problem I found myself is how to create a product that is world class. That's why I started looking into branding and have been making progress in this regard. I'll post an update when I have something substantive to share.

 

[Andy Black]

Posted this morning in another thread:

Worried freelancing isn't a businesss?

Check out these podcasts, the first one in particular:

• www.tropicalmba.com/services
• www.tropicalmba.com/scale
• www.tropicalmba.com/consulting

In that first one there's a sliding scale like:

Employee
-> Contractor/Freelancer
-> Consultancy/Agency
-> Productised Service
-> Platform


High level plan:

1. Get some valuable skills (ideally by consulting to clients rather than taking courses and doing certifications).
2. Figure out how to get paid.
3. Scale.

Business is simple:

• Help people. Get paid. Help more people.
• Start. Sell. Scale.

** Business gets complicated because we don't keep it simple. **


Good luck!