Why I despise Pickup Artistry, and how to have a fulfilling sex life.

[ChrisV]

Okay to answer the question about whether men or women want sex more, the general answer is that men care more about sex. In general. But again, there are some caveats. Heres a good graphical depiction from a Tinder study

So yes, in general, women have the advantage. But if you're a male in the top 20%, you have the advantage. Women have to be choosier because evolutionarily they've had the burden of childbirth. If a woman gets pregnant, that's 9 months of pregnancy, and 18+ years of child rearing. Men don't have that burden necessarily. Furthermore women want to make sure a man is committed in the case she DOES get pregnant. But they will forgo that commitment if the guy is of high enough genetic quality to make the pregnancy worth it, even if he is not guaranteed to commit. In lay terms a woman who is an 8 will F*ck a guy who is a 10 even without commitment. Because now she has a baby with high quality DNA so if she's stuck in a single mother situation its not as bad as if she had a baby with a guy who is a 6 (lower survival value) This also explains the 'slut' phenomenon. Women on the low end of the totem pole will accept almost ANY genetic material, even without commitment. The difference between her and Marilyn Monroe is that Marilyn Monroe was F*cking JFK and Marlen Brando (high quality genetic material) whereas the girl who is called a 'slut' is F*cking guys of average genetic material.

Now this has nothing to do with the slut-shaming I referred to earlier. A girl at a club isn't generally accepting ANY genetic material... she's only letting the highest quality guys go home with her, which is why you see women rejecting men at clubs and bars. They're simply not up to the standards she's looking for. These girls are not 'sluts'... 'sluts' are the ones with low standards.

I still stand by the statement that its not that different for men and women. "A guy who sleeps around is a stud"... no, he's only a 'stud' if he's sleeping around with quality women. If he's F*cking every fat crack addicted woman, he's now not much of a stud, is he. But the same is true of women. Marilyn Monroe was revered because she landed quality men.

But this still illustrates that, for men, your best option is commitment. Because as illustrated earlier, a man who is an 8, without commitment, can usually only sleep with women who are 6's. But with commitment, men can date women who are equal to them. Ie, 9's can land other 9's.

 

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[Real Deal Denver]

I've noticed that women are more sexually assertive than I've ever seen.

Ever? Like hey man, what is ever? Six years? Better get another graph to back you up.

Testosterone is directly correlated with mating success in basically every animal, including humans.

Now we have that much cleared up. Thank you, Professor.

I could totally call up NASA right now and get a job if I wanted... how's that for results?

I like this one totally, because it's like way cool, for sure.

Your diction betrays you. What am I talking to here - a freakin millennial that has seen too many YouTube Jordan Peterson lectures and now wants to be him? Ow - that one kind of strikes home doesn't it?

I'm going to have to disagree here. You can't compare a Hollywood bombshell celebrity like Marilyn Monroe to normal women. Marilyn Monroe was a sex symbol, she oozed sex. Take your average, off the street girl that dresses like a stripper, parties, f*cks 5 guys a week on Tinder....maybe she's a waitress, maybe she's a nurse, doesn't matter - girls aren't' looking up to her, girls don't wish they were here, girls will gossip behind her back, say mean stuff to her face when they're drunk and warn men about her. If you've ever spent time with a group of women over wine, you hear a lot of gossip, mean and vindictive shit said about their so called friends. Women don't want to be labelled as a *slut*, it's terrifying to them - it's almost the same as being labelled a *creep* for men.

Excellent analysis. However, as we see again, not everyone gets it...

Marilyn Monroe was revered because she landed quality men.

And here is another reason Monroe was not revered;



But we're on the topic of flirting and pickups - so let's not go too deep. We'll stay in the shallow end of the pool. Just thought you'd like to know what women and men also think about your revered goddess. Hussy - slut - bitch - all kinds of names for her.

Because as illustrated earlier, a man who is an 8, without commitment, can usually only sleep with women who are 6's. But with commitment, men can date women who are equal to them. Ie, 9's can land other 9's.

And there you have it. All we need to know. Of course, who rates the babes and the stud muffins will forever remain a mystery. I imagine there are a lot of 8's that think they are a 10 as that's human nature. But don't give up, if you are an 8, and you land a 9.2 - you're doing great man - totally great, fur sure dude.

Such deep profound thinking.

So glad I'm not in my 20's and 30's anymore. Fur sure.

Here, for the ladies, are a few prime tens...

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

This thread has gone off the deep end.. I’m grabbing popcorn.

 

[MTEE1985]

This thread has gone off the deep end.. I’m grabbing popcorn.

I’m grabbing scotch.

When did talking to girls turn into a 12 step program?

Maybe I’m getting old being 34 and all but I remember the artistry of meeting girls being:
1. See girl
2. Say hi


@ChrisV @Real Deal Denver love you both, the forum is a better place with you in it.

 

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[DayIFly]

Now this has nothing to do with the slut-shaming I referred to earlier. A girl at a club isn't generally accepting ANY genetic material... she's only letting the highest quality guys go home with her, which is why you see women rejecting men at clubs and bars. They're simply not up to the standards she's looking for. These girls are not 'sluts'... 'sluts' are the ones with low standards.

Can this really be described as a "high standard" though? If she doesn't qualify as long-term relationship material because she isn't his looksmatch and he's simply on a rebound or it's about convenience, etc. and she knows this (through similar situations), then it's the definition of having a "low standard". I mean what meaning is there talking about genetic material if there's no pregnancy involved, there is no goal the "high standard" is aiming for.

In the same way, you could say that she's not up to his standard because he won't stay with her and she won't have any offspring with him. In my opinion, there appears to be ground for calling this behavior slutty, especially if it's done regularly with full knowledge. Maybe it's "Look, it's 2019, bro.", I can accept that, but it's more a carefree / having fun attitude and not some high standard / genetic material theory which makes it look nicer and nobler. We aren't animals which are solely ruled by instincts, the high standard would be to look for a looksmatch to hookup with which has the potential to blossom into something more. If this is not the goal, because the "stud" is hotter, and the goal is fun, then so be it. This also applies to men btw.

The question appears to be in what way modern hookup culture is influencing the strategy for monogamy. I see that more and more of the (delayed) effects are slowly beginning to manifest at the edges (where communities rise up and grow). Women complaining about men not being interested in long-term relationships while at the same time ignoring their looksmatches and seeing their hookup partners as the golden standard. Men complaining that they were being ignored in their 20s, going MGTOW because they don't want to be the last resort for women past their prime (who had their fun in the past). There are also men having too high standards, thinking they can score models with average looks by studying some stupid openers or reading some pseudo-evolutionary nonsense. We have a mismatch in expectations and a lack of long-term thinking. There are no rules anymore.

That's why good-looking people always recommend to simply "be yourself," this is based on a positive feedback loop because with good looks you can get away with pretty much anything, even creepy behavior is charming. This is also why game "works" for some and not for others, there is no game. This is of course only about the extreme edges, as I said above, most people I know are quite functional. But the trend remains. I unfortunately expect that exacerbating ideologies/ideas will be spread because dysfunctional people generally spend more money on entertainment and other substitutes.

 

[Kevin88660]

Can this really be described as a "high standard" though? If she doesn't qualify as long-term relationship material because she isn't his looksmatch and he's simply on a rebound or it's about convenience, etc. and she knows this (through similar situations), then it's the definition of having a "low standard". I mean what meaning is there talking about genetic material if there's no pregnancy involved, there is no goal the "high standard" is aiming for.

In the same way, you could say that she's not up to his standard because he won't stay with her and she won't have any offspring with him. In my opinion, there appears to be ground for calling this behavior slutty, especially if it's done regularly with full knowledge. Maybe it's "Look, it's 2019, bro.", I can accept that, but it's more a carefree / having fun attitude and not some high standard / genetic material theory which makes it look nicer and nobler. We aren't animals which are solely ruled by instincts, the high standard would be to look for a looksmatch to hookup with which has the potential to blossom into something more. If this is not the goal, because the "stud" is hotter, and the goal is fun, then so be it. This also applies to men btw.

The question appears to be in what way modern hookup culture is influencing the strategy for monogamy. I see that more and more of the (delayed) effects are slowly beginning to manifest at the edges (where communities rise up and grow). Women complaining about men not being interested in long-term relationships while at the same time ignoring their looksmatches and seeing their hookup partners as the golden standard. Men complaining that they were being ignored in their 20s, going MGTOW because they don't want to be the last resort for women past their prime (who had their fun in the past). There are also men having too high standards, thinking they can score models with average looks by studying some stupid openers or reading some pseudo-evolutionary nonsense. We have a mismatch in expectations and a lack of long-term thinking. There are no rules anymore.

That's why good-looking people always recommend to simply "be yourself," this is based on a positive feedback loop because with good looks you can get away with pretty much anything, even creepy behavior is charming. This is also why game "works" for some and not for others, there is no game. This is of course only about the extreme edges, as I said above, most people I know are quite functional. But the trend remains. I unfortunately expect that exacerbating ideologies/ideas will be spread because dysfunctional people generally spend more money on entertainment and other substitutes.

I totally agree with you on the mismatch of expectations. Men and women tend to overestimate their value in the market place a lot.

I think the hook up myth is overblown. People always imagine others hooking up. I last checked the stats college grad in America has four life time sexual partners and none college grads has six.

Think about it. This means that above average calibre people tend just have 2-3 sexual partners in their entire life. This is basically about having 2-3 relationships before marrying their husband or wife at age 30! Boring and typical!

The stats also match well with what I observe in real life. It is not being religious or deliberately conservative. People are just too busy to pursue this lifestyle due to study or work. This generation of millennials are more geeky and intellectual. In addition to that they are dealing with a harsh job environment. I just think that we should be cautious in making generalization to assume whatever social trends we see are due to people hooking up.

 

[Kevin88660]

One thing that has changed is porn. It's everywhere. And kids are watching it more than ever. Young boys have seen more naked women before they turn 15 than most adults have seen in a lifetime. What's weird about the world is as the porn-ification of society accelerates, the less and less sex men are having. We've all seen that study that found men between 18-30 are haven't the least amount of sex in history (see WaPo link below), with 30% of these men being sexless. Women are still getting laid though. I wonder why?

Tinder/Instagram make it easy for women to get lots of sexual attention, both wanted and unwanted. It's also why many men aren't getting any attention from these women, only the very top few are getting selected. so online dating won't work for most men...and as men learn this, they try to find other ways to meet women, that's where they will inevitably find things like PUA/Game, or just retreat into the land of porn, video games and drugs. Depression will follow as life loses meaning for many of these men.

As for the pussification of men in the millennial era (my generation), lower testosterone levels and sperm counts are part of the problem. It has been documented (see GQ link below), that sperm counts have been dropping every year since WW2, and kids born today have far less testosterone than their grandparents, and most healthy men in their 20s have the equivalent T levels as a 60 year old man. There is a fear that T levels will continue to drop at the current rate there will be point where men won't have enough testosterone to get an erection and impregnate women...and for those that can, their sperm counts will be too low for conception. This is called the ZERO SPERM level, where humanity will cease to exist (we will survive thanks to artificial inception). This is actually a very big problem, the causes are unknown, many link it to plastics and our sedentary modern environment.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/29/share-americans-not-having-sex-has-reached-record-high/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.278c969f972b

What Happens If We Hit Sperm Count Zero?

A strange thing has happened to men over the past few decades: We've become increasingly infertile, so much so that within a generation we may lose the ability to reproduce entirely.

www.gq.com

Well written post. I agree with you on many points. I am just over 30 and belong to the “older millennials”. Online Porn is a real problem.

I just disagree on the timing of events. I do not think people fail in online dating and then hence they seek pua for help. These are events of two different era.

PUA really get hyped up in the year 2000s after neil strauss wrote a book about the game in 2005. It boomed in 2007-2012 but slowly declined.

The social media dating and instalgram attention seeking game to me was more of a post 2012 era thing. This is the time that people are more trusting of internet as a platform to not only use for communication and commerce but also looking for dates and sexual attention.

PUA material at its core is written based on experience of guys hitting on girls in the early 2000s. It was a different generation of girls. For the dating and sexual market game girls only have 8 years and after that they will retire into serious monogamy or forced to retire as they receive no attention. Thats the hard reality. So if you think about the girls getting hit on in 2002/2003 versus 2018-2019 they are two generations apart!

So back in the early 2000s internet is still at its infancy. Girls go to clubs and bars to get hit on by guys. PUA is not just about how to get girls but it come with a nerd jock struggle dynamic in the anglo-american culture. In the pre-internet dating era when most people still have the balls to communicate face to face, the outgoing confident guys who are more athletic were getting female attention. So the nerds come out with their own system to “decode” the success in the game. They turn social interactions into theories and practice and seriously train for it. That was the gist.

Fast forward to 2018-2019. The landscape was different. Everyone is a nerd now. The girls are nerds too. It is a different generation of girls. They don't go to pubs. If guys approach then in supermarket the girls will freak out because they do not get used to this. They rather post more glam shots on instal gram to seek male validations .

 

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[NicholasCato]

So I agree with some things you’ve said, and some things I disagree with. Instead going on a long rant I’ll just quote somethings you’ve said here that are only half true.

Firstly I agree the PUA community can be cringe but here’s a difference between this

View: https://youtu.be/XbYNAZxcWh4


And videos that offer immense value like this

View: https://youtu.be/nZ1q07WHuOs



One of these videos is obviously made for teens, the other is an introduction to a legitimate path of many that leads to self actualization. I’m not going to waste a lot of time writing this so I’ll just jump into your statements…

“What I do have an issue with is the ways they go about it. For those that don’t know what “Pickup Artists” teach.. it’s essentially stuff like “Be cocky and funny” (a certain brand of humor where you bust a girls balls while acting like you’re totally ‘the shit.’) Advice like: “Don’t act too needy,” “Be mysterious,” “be unpredictable,” “don’t text her back too quickly””

Ok what’s wrong with being cocky and funny? Imagine the opposite a guy that’s completely dry (not in a humorous self aware way) and boring. What’s wrong with telling a guy that maybe he has to learn to make people laugh have a good time for them to like him. And maybe “busting a woman’s balls” to see if she can take a hit to the ego and laugh at herself like a healthy adult is a great way to weed out the insecure girls that just want you to pamper them with compliments..

Also not acting too needy is great advice. Reading over this thread is just blowing my mind… I’m going to use a example repeatedly in my reply that many of the business minded users here can understand… do you want to come off as a needy client to a potential business partner? Do you want a potential hire acting like HE NEEDS your job? Or would you rather have a hire who PRESENTS HIM OR HERSELF LIKE THEIR THE SHIT (The caps doesn’t represent anger btw I’m just emphasizing the point I’m trying to make).
In which world is it ok where “being yourself” = being needy to a woman would make her more attractive to you? This is solid objectively true advice you’re dismissing. Why? I don’t know. Nobody let alone women want someone who NEEDS them. We’re hard wired to ignore those types unless we’re talking about a narcissist.. but on to the next.

“In their view, liking one girl is a disease, and if you go and f— 10 girls, you’ll realize how ‘unspecial’ the first girl was. Make no mistake, this is pure psychopathic behavior. Literally. I have a friend who is a diagnosed sociopath, and he does things like this. The Pickup Artist community is literally trying to mold psychopaths.

Every woman is special. They all have unique personalities and quirks and each one of them is interesting in their own way. You should learn to love each and every one of them, rather than listening to some idiots trying to tell you that they’re all disposable f*ckdolls. Again, there’s nothing wrong with having sex with them, but the mentality promotes treating them as objects rather than real unique people with thoughts, feelings, fears, hopes, dreams and desires. This is the psychopathic part.”

You see when oneitis is usually brought up, it’s a typical case of a guy whose fallen horribly in love with a girl he’s just met BASED ON HER LOOKS ALONE (keep this in mind) and imagines a whole romantic life with her just because this woman in particular gave him some attention… now from a woman’s point of view imagine how extremely creepy that is…

• A guy whose judging you based solely on your looks 90% of the time..

• Falling madly in love with THE THOUGHT OF YOU..

• Building you up so much in his head he can’t act normal around you and actually get to know you person to person…

• A guy you know wants to eventually have sex with you. But sex with you is a big deal to him. But you know you’re JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER GIRL. There’s NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT HER... TO HER. So why not approach her with that? You’re just an average guy, she’s just an average girl. Only difference being you’re attracted to her and that’s no big deal. Treating her like she’s special.. without even knowing her? Life isn’t some 1950’s Hollywood romcom.

You see why these “gross pick up artists” tell you to go and talk to other girls with the intent of having sex with them when oneitis happens? It’s to take the pressure off. She’s not special.. inthe sense that she’s some goddess that should be cherished and only walk on a bed of the freshest white rose petals.. she’s special in the sense that she’s a human like us. She should be treated like one too. She can be judged, not liked for reasons she can’t really help, and be called out for BS like any other human on this planet.

And women want that.. they want to be treated as equal.. they don’t want some nice guy trying to “nice” his way into their pants. If telling a guy to be cocky and make a scripted effort to light heartedly poke fun at a girl will eventually have him take them off a pedestal then so be it. It’s the equivalent of being sold some shit you don’t want with some rah rah marketing buttering you up, versus finding a product that is honest and indifferent with its marketing. (See? another business example)

“And don’t get it twisted. These Pickup Artists don’t really care about the sex. If they just wanted sex, there are much easier and less time-consuming ways to go about it. Just get a prostitute. Or get a girlfriend. But they don’t just want the sex. They want the ego validation. They want to earn the sex.”

It’s so laughable to me how you’re villainizing this idea of wanting to earn sex while at the same time listing prostitution as a viable option if all you want to do is bang a woman… tough to say but it really brings up a questionable mentality on your part (not taking shots, but really man. Read that statement) MEN WANT TO EARN THINGS BASED ON THEIR SKILL AND MERIT.
That last sentence could basically sum up this whole post here but yeah. I don’t see anything. Absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying the sport of attracting a woman and being playful and flirty, and feeling like you earned sex from her.

Your statement basically reads like this to me:

“there are much easier and less time consuming ways to loose weight. Just get liposuction. But no these “fitness artists” want the ego validation. They want to go to the gym and WORKOUT”

To sum up my thoughts on this post. The whole thing reads as if you think women are being manipulated to the bedroom with these tactics. I have something to tell you. Women aren’t that stupid. They know when a guy is trying to pick them up the second they make eye contact. This isn’t some evil man going after an innocent holy woman with his book of diabolical pick up techniques. These are two adults playing the game that must be played in some capacity for them both to reach a mutually beneficial goal of sex (yes women like sex too!).

So yeah basically all I have to say is

• Canned pickup lines WORK in the sense that it breaks the ice, makes her laugh, gives the guy something he can always pull out when he doesn’t know what to say.. another business example. Pickup is pretty much cold calling. Are you saying copy doesn’t work? Having something ready to say doesn’t free up a ton of mental space that would otherwise paralyze you into not taking action?
• Cocky and funny works because it’s telling the guy to try to think of the girls needs for one second atleast to make her laugh and put her in a good mood but also be “cocky” in the sense that you’re on her same level and can say things that might offend her because she’s just a human being.. just like your guy friends, as an adult she should be able to take some criticism or hear something she might not want to hear.
• Oneitis is a thing. Ask any girl in this forum how many creepy guys made them the special one because he was lonely and had no other girls in his life.. it’s just baffling to me how you can deny this as a real thing that happens.. you KNOW guys like this. And you KNOW they never get the girl.

I don’t get this thing that happens in self help / business communities where guys dismiss solid info they found through PUA after they’ve spent a healthy amount of time in that world. I get it.. the community is extremely douchey and womanizing to say the least, but that’s the Internet.. worse can be said for the entrepreneur online community.


There are definitely things a man has to do and/or can do to improve his chances with women. That’s an absolute objective fact. This idea of “just be yourself” is about as big of a societal lie as “just follow your passion and you’ll be rich”.

You shouldn’t be yourself. You should be your best self the self you’ve always dreamed of being. Sometimes an aspect of that best self is being able to make a stunning 10/10 woman feel sexy and desired by what you say and how you say it. And maybe some of that skill can be learned through pick up artistry..

What if “being myself” = my whole wardrobe being Pokémon shirts, cargo pants, and my favorite cologne was axe body spray? Do you think any woman would want to be seen with me? I’m sure your answer would be some women are into that.. yes very very VERY few, are into that but you see my point.

Again I agree with some things you say and others I just don’t see how you could view them as the true when the reality of the matter really doesn’t line up. This post to me reads as a personal experience. like you’ve dabbled in pickup but ended up finding a girl and now the whole PUA thing just looks silly from the other side. I get that but it doesn’t invalidate the act of a guy who has no clue with women, choosing to go out and get some experience with women using pick up as a vehicle to do so. And it’s not manipulation. You’re completely underestimating the intelligence of the average woman by thinking a guy can use a line to have her running naked to the bedroom... It’s in the act of the initial approach (inspired and driven by PUA), and the vibe that happens in the interaction not in the “PUA tactics”. 50% of communication is non verbal. Hope this helps.

 

[ChrisV]

I’m grabbing scotch.

When did talking to girls turn into a 12 step program?

Maybe I’m getting old being 34 and all but I remember the artistry of meeting girls being:
1. See girl
2. Say hi


@ChrisV @Real Deal Denver love you both, the forum is a better place with you in it.

I'm mostly just trying to clarify my own position on this, and engaging people can help you organize your thoughts.

And yes, it pretty much is that simple. But if someone's like Golem from Lord of the Rings, that's not gonna work so well.

 

[ChrisV]

And I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm a Data Scientist who works mainly in the Social Sciences, so understanding human nature is important to me.

 

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[ThisIsNotIt]

Lol. I've been lurking for a while on this forum and never posted, but had to make an account just to say that this is the cringiest thread I've read on this forum. Surprised it's gotten this long. For the young guys out there, listen to the business and financial advice on this forum but disregard the "dating/women" talk here, it's just the blind leading the blind as those succesful with dating really don't discuss/overanalyze dating this way. Just know that spending one night with a girl will teach you much more than reading about "dating advice" from "dating experts" on the internet will.

 

[ChrisV]

Lol. I've been lurking for a while on this forum and never posted, but had to make an account just to say that this is the cringiest thread I've read on this forum. Surprised it's gotten this long. For the young guys out there, listen to the business and financial advice on this forum but disregard the "dating/women" talk here, it's just the blind leading the blind as those succesful with dating really don't discuss/overanalyze dating this way. Just know that spending one night with a girl will teach you much more than reading about "dating advice" from "dating experts" on the internet will.

I don't even know what his guy is talking about. This isn't an advice thread. It's a "shut the f--- up with the PUA bullshit" Public Service Announcement since this cancer has been infiltrating the forums as of late. I don't do 'pickup' I don't care about 'pickup,' and thinking about yourself as 'successful with dating' is slimey in and of itself. Dating is not a f---ing 'skill.' It's about meeting and connecting with another human being. "Bro, I'm a master dater... I totally am the best dater you've ever seen. I'm really successful at dating." It's a nonsensical mentality.

The rest of the stuff is just to dispel myths from a research and psychology perspective.

I've been lurking for a while on this forum and never posted

And thank god for that.

Note to self: I really have to work on not responding to trolls. It's like my kryptonite. I said I was pretty much done with this thread a while ago, but I keep getting sucked back in with the email notifications. Definitely something I need to work on.

 

[NicholasCato]

@ChrisV no reply to my previous post? It seems you skipped over that one.. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the things I brought up...

Also dating is not a skill? That’s like saying throwing parties isn’t a skill. A date is basically a party of two.. So conversation, hosting, and flirting aren’t things you can improve on? What’s going on here?

 

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[ZF Lee]

Also dating is not a skill? That’s like saying throwing parties isn’t a skill. A date is basically a party of two.. So conversation, hosting, and flirting aren’t things you can improve on? What’s going on here?

Communication. And empathy.

These are the skills at play.

Some of the stuff can be applied to sales, which is why a few dating gurus do move into sales later on.

Nothing wrong with a skill, as long your intent is good.

 

[ChrisV]

@ChrisV no reply to my previous post? It seems you skipped over that one.. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the things I brought up...

I'm trying to not reply to every post in this thread, as I've already spent more time than I intended to with this this thread since I didn't realize it was going to get the amount of response it got. But sure, I'll respond.

I agree with the beginning but I feel like in a number of points, you misunderstood the central point of what I wrote.

Example:

Also not acting too needy is great advice. Reading over this thread is just blowing my mind… I’m going to use a example repeatedly in my reply that many of the business minded users here can understand… do you want to come off as a needy client to a potential business partner? Do you want a potential hire acting like HE NEEDS your job? Or would you rather have a hire who PRESENTS HIM OR HERSELF LIKE THEIR THE SHIT (The caps doesn’t represent anger btw I’m just emphasizing the point I’m trying to make).

There's nothing wrong with being 'unneedy.' But be genuinely unneedy rather than doing stuff like intentionally waiting to respond to texts. That shit is just pathetic to me. If you wait a little bit to respond to her texts because you're working on a business assignment and will get back to a girl when you're finished, there's nothing wrong with that. But sitting there like "I'm not going to respond to her text because I want to show her how cool and unneedy i am!" is just playing games.

And no, I don't want a needy business partner. But I also don't want a business partner who feigns being 'unneedy' in an attempt to procure work from me under false pretenses. Someone who in reality is just a desperate Gil. I don't want a potential hire to be 'acting' like anything. It's false advertising. I want a genuine, competent employee who presents himself truthfully. And those genuine competent employees generally have many options so they're naturally going to act in a way that's not needy. I definitely don't want an employee who is consciously trying alter his verbal and nonverbal cues in an attempt to hide his desparation. One that's trying to make it seem like he's a more high-quality employee than he really is.

Neediness is a symptom. Not the problem itself. The issue is:

addressing symptoms of low self-esteem while not addressing the self-esteem itself.

Being needy or clingy is a sign that there's deeper stuff going on. It's almost like telling someone that the cure to a cold is to stop sneezing. There has to be a distinction between the symptoms and the root causes.

You shouldn’t be yourself. You should be your best self the self you’ve always dreamed of being.

Bingo. And I said that. I said "When you're genuinely competent, you can just be yourself," not some cliche "just be yourself" bullshit.

There are definitely things a man has to do and/or can do to improve his chances with women. That’s an absolute objective fact.

I never said otherwise.

This idea of “just be yourself” is about as big of a societal lie as “just follow your passion and you’ll be rich”.

Again, never said that. I said that when you have genuine confidence and work to become your best self, you can just be yourself. If 'just being yourself' means being 43 years old and still living in your parents basement, then no.. don't be him. But that does not mean you should go out and pretend that isn't you. It doesn't mean you should adopt the 'body language and voice tone' of a non-World-of-Warcraft player. It means get off your F*cking a$$ and do something with your life. It's about becoming your best self, then as a result of actually being a cool dude, you'll attract high quality romantic situations.

Get therapy to work on your confidence issues, go to the gym, develop some style (but your own style, not somebody else's,) find your life purpose and actually be someone that girls want to be around. All of these things are still being yourself... they're just being the the version of yourself you actually want to be. Rather than doing this some 12-step bullshit guide to falsifying relationships like @guy93777 posted earlier:



That's pure psychopathy. It goes back to what I said earlier in the thread:

Yes, my criticism does not extend to guys like the RSD camp. Those guys are big advocates of Eckhart Tolle and Personal Development.

I think it boils down to the following: are you more focused on improving your advertising, or are you more focused on improving your product. Traditional PUA focuses on the advertising, where I advocate improving the product. Advertising is important too, but without a great product, its manipulation.

 

[Kevin88660]

On the issue of objectifying people, of course we should recognize that everyone (men or women) has unique qualities and should not be treated as merely an object.

My point of view is somewhere in the middle. You must develop the ability to see other people as objects and also much more than an object. It very much depends on the context also.

Just think about it in the context of relationship, guys are supposed to hit on girls and expect to get rejected on a regular basis. It is a numbers game. If he is going to imagine the girls as special angels even before he speak to them his confidence is going to get crushed very quickly. He might even get vengeful. Just see the ladies as your sales targets and he will be in a much better mental state. “Okay you don’t like me. That’s fine. Next.” If you dated her for three months already that’s a different case.

I will give another example in the corporate world. I am sure that you might have met kind managers and boss who see you as more than a number for the KPI or profit. But do not forget that you are called “Human Resource” for a reason. Just think about that.

Seeing people as objects is not to deny the individual unique qualities that the person has. The ultimate aim of objectifying people in the context is to make rational and efficient decision without getting interfered by emotions.

 

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[Mattie]

“be yourself” advice that is VERY destructive.

Always worked for me. Seriously, always was like that for me. You're either a natural or not. I believe some people have to work harder for it than others. All about the way you speak number one, how you act, how you behave, and sure, you go through the growing pains, but if you're not authentic, you're just leading someone to believe you're something your not. They accept your for who you are, or they don't.

 

[ChrisV]

This post to me reads as a personal experience. like you’ve dabbled in pickup but ended up finding a girl and now the whole PUA thing just looks silly from the other side. I get that but it doesn’t invalidate the act of a guy who has no clue with women, choosing to go out and get some experience with women using pick up as a vehicle to do so. And it’s not manipulation. You’re completely underestimating the intelligence of the average woman by thinking a guy can use a line to have her running naked to the bedroom... It’s in the act of the initial approach (inspired and driven by PUA), and the vibe that happens in the interaction not in the “PUA tactics”. 50% of communication is non verbal. Hope this helps.

And no, it's not so much from personal experience. My knowledge of this pickup stuff is just from seeing it all over Reddit and various articles. I mean I read David Deangelo's Double Your Dating when I was like 18 and dumb, but I've never really used the tactics. I've also read "The Game" because it was fascinating. I've read stuff but don't follow much. I find you can gain insight even if you don't agree with the materials. For instance I love reasing the Bible even though I consider myself an Atheist. But regarding dating much of my knowledge about the 'economics' of dating that I was talking about earlier is from my study of the Social Sciences, not the Pickup Community and (for example) OKCupid had this really amazing Data Science blog that I followed that answered a lot of really cool questions like "what race gets the most messages," and other interesting dating related questions. What I was talking about earlier is definitely not 'pickup,' but more Social Science. I mean you wouldn't even get a lot of what I've written thus far from those PUA guys, as their stuff really isn't that sophisticated.

I prefer listening to say, Diana Fleischman:

View: https://youtu.be/r0Mueu1--ew?t=119


And again, it's not the whole genre. Someone linked to that RSDMax guy, who I have no objections to ethically:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bA-bNvJ5aM

I agree with that because you should always be developing as a person.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

Has this thread motivated ANYONE to create a business?

Obvi it wouldn’t be a Hot Post if a lot of us weren’t at least a little curious about this crazy drama bs. Idk about you all but as far as I’m concerned talk is cheap. You can read a ton of stuff about dating (or business or web design or being a flipping doctor!) but until you actually go out and DO something nobody cares.

Q: What can we ALL agree on?
A: Unless we get single men and single women talking to each other in real life nobody is ever going to meet their future mate.

How can we facilitate that in our individual communities?

I will happily repost this question every time one of these threads pops up.

Today I spent an afternoon w/ some girlfriends discussing an idea I’ve had over and over again but haven’t pursued because, frankly, I don’t care enough to do it. Every single time I do my single friends IMMEDIATELY get excited.

Here’s the Idea:

What if someone started organizing small groups of singles say 5 men and 5 women to meet every weekend at different small businesses/ activities? Or developed an app that did? Or a newsletter? Or ANYTHING???

To weed out narcissists and unstable types you could have questionnaires, a culture of Friends For 6 Months First, a values test or make one weekend the time when everybody has to make fun of each other, constantly? (Just FYI unstable ppl can’t handle being made fun of and if you created a community AIMED towards healthy friend relationships they wouldn’t stick around for long.)

In other words a dating app that IS NOT about dating as much as it’s about meeting TONS of other singles in real life situations: the Batting Cage Weekend, the Pole Fitness Weekend, the Golfing Weekend, the Salsa Weekend, the Painting Class Weekend, the Escape Room Weekend, the Book Discussion Weekend etc.

In other words, centering the entire thing around going out, being healthy without alcohol, and having fun??

Being uncomfortable, challenging yourself intellectually, physically and emotionally with a group of the opposite sex might actually facilitate REAL LIFE friendships between men and other men, men and women, or women and women.

People feel so incredibly isolated. How can we as entrepreneurs fix that?

If you added in a blog or newsletter that discussed some of the points in this thread or specific PUA or (if you’re Chris Anti-PUA) stuff that might get the convos flowing. You could have a Skype group per area. A person could design specific questions every member IS FORCED to ask everybody else at least once during the weekend. Etc, etc, etc.

This is just off the top of my head mind you.. here’s my point.

TLDR

This thread indicates a Real Problem: People don’t want to be alone.

We need to direct this thread (and allllllll the ones that will pop up after it) towards figuring out a Real Solution that somebody could turn into a business.

Whatcha think?

 

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[guy93777]

This thread indicates a Real Problem: People don’t want to be alone.

i don't think so

i think that this topic really shows that men have become weak


and they don't really know how to manage women anymore


well explained here :


seduction is a fight between yin and yang energy

push and pull as explained here :




a woman is seduced when the yin ( female energy ) and yang ( male energy )have found the right harmony

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVbGjIHN3A4








do you think a woman will be attracted by this :








or by this ?







i don't know. maybe the first picture is the right one. i am just asking

smart people know the answer.

 

[CareCPA]

I feel like I'm saying this more and more often, but this thread got weird.
Maybe it started out weird, I'm not really sure, but it definitely got weirder as it went along.

 

[ChrisV]

I feel like I'm saying this more and more often, but this thread got weird.
Maybe it started out weird, I'm not really sure, but it definitely got weirder as it went along.

Yea, owning this thread is almost like having a retarded kitten. Like... you bring the kitten home and it's really cute at first, but then it starts walking into walls and shit and you realize the extent of it's retardation. But you also don't want to leave it alone to go astray because it will probably get stuck in the self-cleaning litterbox or drown in the bathtub or choke on a cat toy or something. Now you just have to accept being the owner of a retarded cat.

I'd probably close it if I could. But then I'm just as guilty for continuing to engage it.

 

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[lowtek]

FYI: Guy93777 is the formerly banned user GMS17D.

Anyway, just because there is a market for something doesn't make it right.

There's a market for cocaine and sex trafficking ... does that make it OK too?

Damn, what did he get banned for? Some of his more crack pot posts were amusing.

By the way, I'm pretty sure he rejoined. I've seen some other posts that are very very similar in style and substance. I can point them out when I see them, but the name eludes me at the moment.

On topic: Thanks @ChrisV for making this thread. The observation about ego validation is spot on.

 

[Kevin88660]

i don't think so

i think that this topic really shows that men have become weak


and they don't really know how to manage women anymore


well explained here :


seduction is a fight between yin and yang energy

push and pull as explained here :

View attachment 25753


a woman is seduced when the yin ( female energy ) and yang ( male energy )have found the right harmony

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVbGjIHN3A4








do you think a woman will be attracted by this :


View attachment 25751





or by this ?


View attachment 25752




i don't know. maybe the first picture is the right one. i am just asking

smart people know the answer.

I guess that men prefer the gladiator but women prefer the first classy rich dude surrounded by chicks.

Men always do shits that women do not care.

 

[NicholasCato]

I'm trying to not reply to every post in this thread, as I've already spent more time than I intended to with this this thread since I didn't realize it was going to get the amount of response it got. But sure, I'll respond.

I agree with the beginning but I feel like in a number of points, you misunderstood the central point of what I wrote.

Example:



There's nothing wrong with being 'unneedy.' But be genuinely unneedy rather than doing stuff like intentionally waiting to respond to texts. That shit is just pathetic to me. If you wait a little bit to respond to her texts because you're working on a business assignment and will get back to a girl when you're finished, there's nothing wrong with that. But sitting there like "I'm not going to respond to her text because I want to show her how cool and unneedy i am!" is just playing games.

And no, I don't want a needy business partner. But I also don't want a business partner who feigns being 'unneedy' in an attempt to procure work from me under false pretenses. Someone who in reality is just a desperate Gil. I don't want a potential hire to be 'acting' like anything. It's false advertising. I want a genuine, competent employee who presents himself truthfully. And those genuine competent employees generally have many options so they're naturally going to act in a way that's not needy. I definitely don't want an employee who is consciously trying alter his verbal and nonverbal cues in an attempt to hide his desparation. One that's trying to make it seem like he's a more high-quality employee than he really is.

Neediness is a symptom. Not the problem itself. The issue is:



Being needy or clingy is a sign that there's deeper stuff going on. It's almost like telling someone that the cure to a cold is to stop sneezing. There has to be a distinction between the symptoms and the root causes.



Bingo. And I said that. I said "When you're genuinely competent, you can just be yourself," not some cliche "just be yourself" bullshit.



I never said otherwise.



Again, never said that. I said that when you have genuine confidence and work to become your best self, you can just be yourself. If 'just being yourself' means being 43 years old and still living in your parents basement, then no.. don't be him. But that does not mean you should go out and pretend that isn't you. It doesn't mean you should adopt the 'body language and voice tone' of a non-World-of-Warcraft player. It means get off your F*cking a$$ and do something with your life. It's about becoming your best self, then as a result of actually being a cool dude, you'll attract high quality romantic situations.

Get therapy to work on your confidence issues, go to the gym, develop some style (but your own style, not somebody else's,) find your life purpose and actually be someone that girls want to be around. All of these things are still being yourself... they're just being the the version of yourself you actually want to be. Rather than doing this some 12-step bullshit guide to falsifying relationships like @guy93777 posted earlier:

View attachment 25743

That's pure psychopathy. It goes back to what I said earlier in the thread:

Thanks for clearing up your points. I see we’re on the same page. But even still, to play devils advocate, I think there’s a place for this douchey analytical side of PUA for guys that are COMPLETELY lost. Maybe they have to adapt some persona before they can evolve to being their true selves. We’ve all done it at some point. Lol

But yes I do agree that fixing the root problem is and should be the main priority. I guess I was spoiled with RSD when I got into pickup because they always talked about fixing your “inner game” (basically inner peace) so you can advance past the technical and just be you

 

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[ChrisV]

Great talk on this: Good v. Evil, Light v. Dark Triad, PUAs & Red Pill: Morality in the Survival of the Fittest

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy_gh6__EOQ

 

[Andy Black]

Oh man this whole concept has my brain exploding.

On this forum ppl discuss the extreme importance of validating a business idea pre launch.

In this thread you mentioned how the unstable types try to earn validation through others but it’s just .. empty.

So really the question I’m gonna be contemplating is, how does one go about validating one’s self?

How do you validate yourself?!?

Hmmmmmmm..... I stayed up too late.

Someone told me to repeat this: “I am enough, because I say I am.”

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

Someone told me to repeat this: “I am enough, because I say I am.”

For individuals who have never seriously struggled with addiction, codependency, brokenness, abuse, or their own sanity ... sure. They believe in themselves. For those of us who have travelled darker paths it’s not enough to say a phrase and not know how to even begin to believe it. I needed more than just words, for many years.

All kinds of amazing ppl worked very hard to convince me to be kind to myself, to forgive myself, to love myself. It helped but mostly because they loved me first. I did not always respond well.

This thread made me connect business validation (a concept I am quite familiar with) and PERSONAL validation, which I had never considered.

Thankfully, I have much more personal validation now (an acceptance of who I am, joy and mostly peace) but it’s taken a long time to get here and a lot of ppl fighting my error-filled self-loathing limiting belief systems (that were not based on any truth but what I said)

I don’t want to break a forum rule and discuss religion. Suffice to say, finding validation or approval or encouragement from a good authority figure is necessary for growth. Ppl need role models.

But it’s not enough.

People need approval but getting it from only other flawed human beings will leave us unfulfilled. I had my big eureka and it was good. I asked myself “What would I need to do to have a clear conscience before my God at the end of the day, to feel validation?

Some ppl would answer relationships; some ppl would say accomplishments.

Mine was a long list of accomplishments. Then I realized that everything on the list would only make ME happy with ME for a short while. I could attempt to validate my own self by my own actions.. but

God said “My Grace is sufficient for you for power is perfected in weakness.”

So being messy is ok.

Scripture also says: “Diligence is a man’s precious possession.”

So working to clean up the mess is good as well.

I think, for me, to feel validated is to hold both of those ideas in my heart. I’m already validated, I’m becoming validated, I will be validated.

TLDR: No worries, enjoy your Scotch.

 

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[Choate]

I dunno what to say. On one hand, we're denouncing PUA in this thread while on another pushing substitute advice which seems like it's essentially just the same thing but more 'household friendly'. A lot of truisms and generalizations from all sides which aren't bringing value to anyone.

I think it goes to show that even when people try their best to bring a different perspective to this topic that it will still turn into a shitshow. I'm glad this forum generally avoids it.