Why All The Secrecy? Here's Why...

[MJ DeMarco]

So I was reading a great entrepreneur thread over at Reddit that @JasonR provided and the topic got downvoted pretty bad because he wasn't very forthcoming with his website address and his product. Of course, the "Redditors" called it a calamity, and even some started to say he was in some type of MLM.

Years ago when I owned my business, I used to frequent another forum. Back then, the business was routinely generating 6-figures monthly in profit. (PROFIT, not revenue). As I participated in the forum more and more, the more and more I was queried for my website's address.

What is it?​

What do you do?​

Please tell me!​

Can you link to your site?​

I refused each and every time and here's why:

As you know, any executed idea thrown out on the internet is ripe to be taken, copied, or borrowed. It's not unusual. The spirit of entrepreneurship is to take an idea, and make it better. Improve it. Efficiency. Convenience. Whatever that is.

However, what usually IS NOT KNOWN, is how much $$$$ that idea is making. If someone discloses "I'm making $200k/mo doing this and here's the website!" - then immediately that idea has placed a target on it's back.

The result is new competitors that enter the space, most of which, cannot execute on the idea.

So what's the problem with that? Competition is good, right?

While these competitors aren't a threat in the long term, they threaten the short term in the form of:

1. Increased PPC / ad costs (they flood the same ad space you're in, driving costs up.)
2. Increased customer service (Hey, did you see xxxxyyyy.com? Is that you guys?)
3. Business model damage (After they poorly execute the same business model you're doing, it can impact your business model -- "Eh, we tried that shit, it don't work.")

IMO, the danger isn't disclosing the idea, but disclosing how much $ the idea is generating. This gives wantrepreneurs an insight into what's possible WITHOUT exposing them to the process of making it happen. In other words, they see "EVENTS"! (Wow, that site is making how much??)

Of course, the above isn't true for products/services that have strong entry barriers, or for concepts/ideas that aren't easily replicable -- those barriers usually are enough to keep the idea-hoppers away.

The point of this post is to explain WHY some people are a little wary about disclosing specifics about their company, their website, and their profits.

In the end, I always thought publicly disclosing my business and attaching profit figures to it was like letting a bunch of mosquitoes into my bedroom -- yea, they won't kill me, but they will bite me here and there, and ultimately, annoy the f*ck out of me.

 

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[limitup]

Absolutely. My first highly successful online business was something I decided to pursue because I saw a for sale listing on bizbuysell. When I saw the website for sale, with all their financial details listed, I couldn't believe that such a simple business/site could make so much money.

Long story short I started a competing site, made my own improvements, made a small fortune, and literally cut their business in half over the next few years.

Had they simply not publically listed their revenue/net figures in their for sale listing, I would have never even noticed their little business.

 

[Vigilante]

One of my worst business ideas ever was picked up by a national publication and went viral. 50 people knocked it off. I blew through 50,000 in advertising trying to make it successful. It was a dog. Meanwhile, all 50 wannabe knockoffs met a painful death one at a time, and I enjoyed every single slow painful death as I watched them all bleed out.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Absolutely. My first highly successful online business was something I decided to pursue because I saw a for sale listing on bizbuysell. When I saw the website for sale, with all their financial details listed, I couldn't believe that such a simple business/site could make so much money.

Long story short I started a competing site, made my own improvements, made a small fortune, and literally cut their business in half over the next few years.

Had they simply not publically listed their revenue/net figures in their for sale listing, I would have never even noticed their little business.

Incredible story ...

We can then say that doing so also exposes your idea to people who CAN execute, giving them the knowledge of the possible payoff.

 

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[AllenCrawley]

People automatically think it's because you're afraid of the competition. They fail to think about it critically as you've explained here.

From that thread...

I'm having a really hard time not posting your site address right now. You can either out execute everyone or you can't. Execution is the only protection. In business, there is no hiding as a mystery brand for very long.

Personally, I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit. Quit worrying about people wanting to copy you. It's not nearly as easy as you think. Your problem will always be obscurity not piracy.

BTW, as someone with a similar sized company but much fewer transactions your order label printing video was awesome! That's got to be a great feeling and a bit "oh shit" all at the same time.

Yes, Jason will out execute every new would be competitor. That is not the issue. Why expose yourself to unnecessary headaches that will drain your resources, time and sanity.

 

[JEdwards]

I even remember a time after I lost a business and finally came across a different idea and I told not even five FRIENDS and within a few short months, this idea started showing up EVERYWHERE around town. So, even without disclosing execution or numbers of this B&M idea, it didn't matter. My takeaway from this experience was to lead people in a different direction altogether without the big picture, and then sit back and watch the idea that was mentioned magically spring up.

It's actually kinda funny nowadays seeing people go down a path that you already know will have issues.

That is 100% true in the 90's when I had a bunch of stores and was making money hand over fist, I had a bunch of old employees go off and start their own. At one time there were at least 8-10 stores run by my ex guys. All made money. Then when it ended it ended, They thought they were great business men, but they weren't. Now every now and then I run into one here selling cars, or working at Best buy. They made money cause the industry was great then, as soon as the business really got tight it was over.

One guy actually laid it on for an hour about how he lost his house cars, owes the IRS hundreds of thousands of dollars. I was like it was fun though and you were daddy for a while right? And he was like Yea.

My point, someone can steal every idea on here, like Zens business, they can make a little money for a time, but truth is they are not Zen and sooner or later they will end up at best buy talking about how great it was in the old days.

 

[DeletedUser2]

I like big markets where other sharks swim.
we have laid out the exact path to execution 5 different times. the contacts, the phone numbers, made warm intros. everything.
only 1 tried to do it. and they ignored everything we told them. they made no money, in the same niche (they even borrowed some of our inventory, our websites, and tech) and just couldn't execute their way out of a wet paper bag.

Execution trumps, capital, brains, market research, copy cats, etc. its utterly amazing what some testicular fortitude and elbow grease can accomplish.
bring on the competition.


PS. we were told today, that after 20 some odd months, we now have one of the best converting offers out there. SHIT. it only took 20 months to beat some of the best? yep. just TONS of work.
Z

 

[Vigilante]

This thread is super fascinating to me. @Vigilante would you care to explain a bit more about this failure i.e. what you did correctly, what you would've done differently, etc? $50k is a very expensive lesson and I'd love to know what you learned in the process. Appreciate you.

Sure.

I listened to everyone tell me how brilliant my idea was. I didn't test the market. After I launched, none of the people who told me how brilliant I was bought the service. People tell you what you want to hear, especially when you are "selling" people on a concept, and especially when you surround yourself with people who affirm your every breath.

Neither did anyone else. The market voted with their checkbooks. There was no need.

I could have used someone telling me I was stupid. (Welcome to the Fastlane Forum!)

Spending $50k on advertising in a single major metro market means my message ran repetitively for several weeks. We had to pull the plug, because absent of the advertising, the business sold exactly zero. The model was unsustainable.

But because the company was highly visible, it was copied. And copied. And copied. All across the United States, and even tiptoed into Europe.

Everyone copied a bad idea. It was an epic failure, and a lesson in due diligence.

 

[JEdwards]

I know I posted this in another thread but Seems fitting here. Someone on the site who had been here only a few weeks wrote me this note.

Basically I want to get into the same business. Can you tell me what it's about? I know you've said that there are already people doing it on this forum, and that you are not reinventing the wheel but I just can't tell what you are doing and I really really want to know.

Please don't flame me or start thinking of me as an idiot for wanting the easy way. I am interested in the idea, because maybe I can make it better or find a twitch.

Do your own homework Marv..

 

[RHL]

So, as someone who was thinking of posting a process thread, this puts me in a tough spot. Is it best to wait until I'm rich and on a roll before sharing anything, to wait until the competition can't possibly catch up? It's really sad that the blow-by-blow can't be shared without risking imitators destroying your brand. We could learn so much more if people could just learn to be original and back off.

 

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[JasonR]

Right, and I did not post my site initially, but someone got smart and decided to post it on the thread, but it got buried.

I also had someone straight rip my landing page. albeit in another niche. Lesson learned the hard way.

 

[JEdwards]

Just be proud you were the first Vig...

Reminds of this local Dumbass that made a device you can plug into the power cord on your TV that will control the hours that your kids watch. This was like in 2006., which I thought was kind of late to the party. but he was a friend of a friend, so I heard him out. He sat down and went on and on about how great his idea was, the whole time I was thinking this is so stupid. He left, I Forgot about it.

Then on my way to the office one day, I see it. A big billboard. How many hours do you let your Kids Watch TV?? With a Pic of the box, with a call to order number. He literally took out 50 of these all over town. Nice way to spend 30k. Never saw him or the crap item again.


And just so you all know I have spent 100's of thousands of dollars in advertising trying to sell crap that didnt work. Spent over 100k last year on a stupid idea. But it wasen't stupid when I was thinking about it. Oh well, you take the good with the bad.

 

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[socaldude]

And don't forget your competitors that are ALREADY in your line of work. It ridiculous how unethical some competitors can be and how much they keep track of you. Don't be surprised if they know your name or where you live. You can be damn sure that if you post your business and you disclose how you are able to get orders out so quickly or cheaply that it will affect your business.

 

[JasonR]

I like big markets where other sharks swim.

So much, this! Never before have I realized the value in this single, simple sentence.

I may have to shut down for a little bit, not a fan of the attention..I'm a laid back, very low key sort of guy. I just like to inspire people in any way I can, even with what I'm doing now that is relatively small to some people, but pretty huge to others.

 

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[QDF]

When someone creates a thread like that trying to help people, they can either give away their niche/product, or they can give away their process. Giving both away is like shooting yourself in the foot. It might not kill you, but could make it a hell of a lot harder to get things done.

So naturally, people who are trying to help others like Jason did are left with two choices: either talk about the product OR the process, but not both. If you ask me, I want to know the process, but the reality is that most people focus on the product. I bet if he simply talked about the product, he wouldn't have had near the responses asking him for his process.

 

[AllenCrawley]

There's been talk before of a 'super duper secret INSIDERS's INSIDERS section' but it really boils down to not sharing too much information. If you really have a concern that someone is going to rip your business, steal your IP and/or become a competitor DO NOT post what your product is, your business name, your website... PERIOD.

Some businesses shared here have such a high barrier to entry it really doesn't matter too much but if your product or service has a low entry your can expect someone to copy you if you share too much.

I do think there should be more vetting or qualification to become an INSIDERS but if you want to be able to share more detailed info with others for the purpose of working thru a specific problem or challenge specific to your product or whatever then it's important to develop relationships with members off this forum...

Meet people in person, build that trust, and you don't have to wait for something like this to pop up.
Not to come off harsh, but just hoping to motivate you. The real trust comes in person.

There are a few people here that know much more about my business than I've shared here. It's because I trust them explicitly. That trust came from meeting them face to face and building that relationship with them.

What has happened to Jason is horrible and makes me angry. Let me ask a question. Would not knowing what his business was have made his posts here any less valuable? Absolutely NOT. Why? Because the lessons and experience he shared are universal.

I get it. When we see someone driving an exotic car the first thought is usually, "I wonder what they do for a living?". It's our nature to be inquisitive. When someone shares how successful their business is we naturally want to know what it is but ultimately, for the sake of this forum, it's not vitally important we know.

 

[Kak]

I know I posted this in another thread but Seems fitting here. Someone on the site who had been here only a few weeks wrote me this note.




Do your own homework Marv..

Lol. Wow. The only possible reason for entering would be the money they see. They don't know shit about what you do but they assume they want to.

 

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[Blueskies4me]

The first business my daughter started at 15 was a really cool advertising project that she started as a civics assignment and it grew. She won a major national contest and had offers from the CEO of the company By Kids for Kids (BKFK.com) who had partnerships with Hanes etc. Another competitor from the same contest took her idea and changed the name then actively marketed to her clients. She didn't have a problem keeping the loyalty because her customers knew her but it was a rotten thing for her to have to experience after the product development and testing we went through.

However, karma or whatever you ascribe to will come calling. She's now 18 and has a full ride scholarship to college and is better for the experience of having run her own business. I'm happy. She's happy.

 

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[AndrewNC]

access to a super INSIDERS section

While this is a great idea to have a 'trusted INSIDERS' section, don't wait on that to unfold to start networking with people like this.

I just got off an hour long phone call with someone who saved me $5,000 on adwords spend.... how did I become part of his INSIDERS circle?

I got off the computer, went to an event, made friends with him and now we help eachother out....more than 18 months after we met.

I have my expertise, he has his.

Meet people in person, build that trust, and you don't have to wait for something like this to pop up.

Not to come off harsh, but just hoping to motivate you. The real trust comes in person.

 

[Lex DeVille]

I tried giving my last brilliant idea away.

Nobody wanted it.

Wtf?!

Now you have to ask yourselves...

Did the idea suck?

Or, did I reverse psychology all of you into not competing with me?

Muahahahahahaha

 

[rkmalo1]

IMO, the danger isn't disclosing the idea, but disclosing how much $ the idea is generating. This gives wantrepreneurs an insight into what's possible WITHOUT exposing them to the process of making it happen. In other words, they see "EVENTS"! (Wow, that site is making how much??)

I've done a lot of thinking about @JasonR 's situation over the past 24hrs and I think the quote above is basically 100% the reason why businesses get ripped off on forums like this. I'll never get it but I do know there are a ton of wantrepreneurs even on the inside, which plain and simple, it sucks!

This is by far my favorite business forum, mainly basically I deeply believe the Fastlane philosophy and I like MJ, Bio, Vig, Allen, Jason, Eskil, Kak, ICK, Jack, Vick, and a few other people here who are kicking a$$ and telling their stories. Even though I go through phases of being a frequent member on the forum, I have learned and implemented so much from all of them. I hope, one day, to be able to provide value to others like they have to me without even knowing it.

So I was thinking ...

I would HAPPILY pay $30 a month more to have access to these guys (while hopefully providing my own value) if there was some type of "super inside" part of the forum where only people generating $10k/month in revenue (or some figure) via a business could join.

Much like Andrew does at ecommercefuel:

http://www.ecommercefuel.com/ecommerce-forum/

Store owners must be generating at least $5,000/month in revenue. It’s not an enormous requirement, but is enough to ensure that participants are making a serious effort at running their own stores and have some real-world experience to share.

I'm not a member of that forum because I chose this one, but hear good things, he specifically caters to eCommerce though. I might try it out sometime but now right now, I barely have the time for this one.

I truly hope that this happening to Jason AGAIN (first Bio) does not dilute the Fastlane forum (edit: it already has with Jason leaving!). I can guarantee other members that at least $10k-$20k/month (of the $70-$120k/month) of revenue we generate every month is a direct result of things we have implemented from tips and topics discussed on this forum. These idiots that pull shit like this DO NOT understand how selfish and what shitty people they truly are.

 

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[TopChef]

I know I posted this in another thread but Seems fitting here. Someone on the site who had been here only a few weeks wrote me this note.




Do your own homework Marv..

Lol. Jack. You could have told Marv that you had made millions inseminating pigs, and then seen what happened next.

But, Jack "Nice Guy" Edwards.

 

[RHL]

I don't doubt that Zen's way of thinking is correct, it's just hard before you have millions of dollars and the infrastructure and confidence built up to know for a fact that not only that you can, but in every case, you WILL steamroll your competition, which Zen has, it's hard to want to lay it out there. It's tough to want to risk a lower the barrier to entry, and reduce the headaches for your competition.

I didn't know how to do a single thing I needed for my fastlane plan before I found the need. I had to develop all those skills from scratch (many are still in the embryonic stage), make huge mistakes, go back and redevelop and fine tune, get something passable, tune some more, now we're getting somewhere, and so on. As a result, you bet you're a$$ I'm worried about lazy people who already had those skills in place, but couldn't find their way to meeting needs with them. I'm working my butt off to get the skills they already have but aren't utilizing correctly, and I'm making their mistakes for them to boot.

The number of people who drop into Fastlane Forum with with the first post, "HAY GUISE TELL ME HOW TO GET TEH SWEET MONAYS" (heck, I got about 12 PMed-variations of that after the Viper thread, and a manager at McDonald's could afford a used Viper if they were clever about it)," tells me there's a large undercurrent of non-contributing process-haters out there looking for the event that will make them some cash (great example of that in the comments of that Yahoo story about the 27-year-old millionaire).

If someone can't use Google to find the tax laws in their state or look up how to build a wordpress or something, information that litters the internet and is freely accessible from multiple sources, I can't imagine what they'd do to escape the bother of actually having to work hard to get a fastlane started (hopefully nothing, then there wouldn't be a problem). As a result I'm feeling a little timid.

Then again, maybe this is just more excuse making. Maybe I just need to...

 

[Vigilante]

And his business was first exposed due to the super sleuths at Reddit. He had done a pretty decent job of casting vision without creating competition until his Reddit AMA.

 

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[Greg R]

Another angle that I haven't seen mentioned is the idea that you gain value from other forum members when you share your business on the forum.

*This may be controversial*

If you read through some of the more successful progress threads, you will see a pattern.

That those who do share their product get much more out of the Forum Collective Mind than those who don't. Ultimately the execution is in the hand of the owner, but the Forum can help think through critical situations and offer great input.

Is there a way to get valuable input while being discreet? Sure. But the more information that you provide, the more that people can help.

Unfortunately, progress threads that have shown to be perceived as successful often get ripped off. And it sucks for those who put the work in.

Here you have a trade off.

If you are going to share your business, you can expect to get valuable information and resources, but you can also have the reasonable expectation to get to get ripped off if your are successful.

A high barrier to entry is a factor, but we've seen some very high barrier businesses still get ripped.

For me, I am transparent by nature and it could be my biggest flaw. In my progress thread on the INSIDE, I've revealed my industry, heck even the type of product that I am making. It really stinks that I have to hold back the rest.

To offset this, I've made incredible relationships with other forum members who help each other outside of the forum. Through DMs, phone conversations, and meetups we can all freely discuss what we are doing without worrying about the vultures. And man it is a shame that people aren't more transparent on here, because some Forum members are doing some incredible things off the Forum. But I don't blame them.

 

[limitup]

I think it has to do with the barriers to entry. If there are none, personally I'd never talk about it. But honestly you shouldn't really be too worried about competition. I mean, if you are, what does that say about your business model? It's one thing to not share anything until you're up and running with a nice "head start" but at the end of the day as soon as you release it to the world people will find it anyway.

The business I mentioned in my earlier post was literally the simplest thing you could possibly imagine and literally anyone with half a brain could have "cloned" it, and improved on it, in less than a month like I did.

 

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[JEdwards]

Was it simple lack of results that turned the idea into a stupid idea? Or were there other revelations that made you realize it was a bad idea?

Sometimes your success makes you think you are smart. When you are not. The service we offered, just didnt work the way I assumed it did.

 

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[theag]

Can we have a forum for people with their own ideas who are well and truly on the road executing them and won't be interested in others ideas but want to share theirs with people who won't steal them so they can get proper specific help without the risk.

that already exists and is called skype, phone or personal meetings

 

[AllenCrawley]

And his business was first exposed due to the super sleuths at Reddit. He had done a pretty decent job of casting vision without creating competition until his Reddit AMA.

Yes, don't do a reddit AMA if you don't want people to know what your biz is.

 

[Justin W.]

In the end, I always thought publicly disclosing my business and attaching profit figures to it was like letting a bunch of mosquitoes into my bedroom -- yea, they won't kill me, but they will bite me here and there, and ultimately, annoy the f*ck out of me.

I must admit, I always loved your crystal-clear analogies.