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O/T: HEALTH Weight Lifting ... leg problems

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Andreas Thiel

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Hi,

maybe somebody knows something about this kind of issue, might be a little specific, though.

I have gained quite some weight - first with body weight exercises, then with weight lifting.
Recently my legs burn like hell when I take short walks. Many different joints and muscles are a little stressed, but that issue it really getting to me.

The numbers: I gained around 13kg (28 lbs) ... which happens to be a 20% change (roughly). My suspicion is that my legs don't really like that increase.
I do squats every second workout. Maybe deadlifts should also help!?
The first few times I was hoping this would go away soon, but it seems to be getting worse rather than better.

Has anybody had similar issues ... or does anybody know anything scientific that I should look into?
 

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Zcott

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Have you rested your legs, and if so how long for? Are you stretching?

Maybe take an ice bath and give your legs a rest for a week to fully recover.
 

SWHi

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Hi,

maybe somebody knows something about this kind of issue, might be a little specific, though.

I have gained quite some weight - first with body weight exercises, then with weight lifting.
Recently my legs burn like hell when I take short walks. Many different joints and muscles are a little stressed, but that issue it really getting to me.

The numbers: I gained around 13kg (28 lbs) ... which happens to be a 20% change (roughly). My suspicion is that my legs don't really like that increase.
I do squats every second workout. Maybe deadlifts should also help!?
The first few times I was hoping this would go away soon, but it seems to be getting worse rather than better.

Has anybody had similar issues ... or does anybody know anything scientific that I should look into?
Hi mate, great to see that you are progressing physically.

Its hard to know for sure without more info and I definitely don't claim to be any sort of expert although I have been training for a long time and have had similar problems.

If you are new to squatting and deadlifting with heavier weights, its pretty normal that your body will have to go through an adaptation phase, I sometimes have time off from weights training to focus on other aspects of my training and whenever I jump back into barbell work, it usually takes about 2 weeks for my body to adjust to the new loads, this results in a lot of stiffness and soreness for days after training.

Mobility training, foam rolling or massage gun as well as yoga or anything of the like is very beneficial if you plan to continue building yourself up, i'd actually argue that its necessary to spend a small amount of time per week working on your mobility and flexibility, further down the line you will run into more problems if you don't counterbalance all of the heavy load you are putting on your body.

Hope this can help a little, its hard to know what is wrong for sure but i'd definitely look into some mobility style training. I have a book at home called 'becoming a supple leopard' its the bible when it comes to mobility and keeping your body healthy, injury prevention etc. I would recommend that for sure! Great resource to have on hand.
 

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I've accumulated plenty of injuries already over my life and the one thing that's helped more than anything is mobility training.

Kelly Starrett is the man when it comes to mobility as well as applying it to weight & athletic training.

If you really want to dive deep, pick up Becoming a Supple Leopard by Kelly.

But I've found a lot more value from his video streaming platform The Ready State which has a whole library of prescription-like exercises that give you immediate relief.

Just realized I sound like an affiliate for him....but honestly, I've been in pain for a long time and this is the only stuff that works.
 

SWHi

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I've accumulated plenty of injuries already over my life and the one thing that's helped more than anything is mobility training.

Kelly Starrett is the man when it comes to mobility as well as applying it to weight & athletic training.

If you really want to dive deep, pick up Becoming a Supple Leopard by Kelly.

But I've found a lot more value from his video streaming platform The Ready State which has a whole library of prescription-like exercises that give you immediate relief.

Just realized I sound like an affiliate for him....but honestly, I've been in pain for a long time and this is the only stuff that works.
Fellow supple leopard cult follower!

I first found out about Kelly Starrett from Firas Zahabi, not sure if you may know him or not but he's a pretty big MMA coach, he does an AMA podcast quite regularly and they are so good for learning about everything related to health fitness etc, would be worth looking into for OP as well if you want to continue building your knowledge on training as he's a master trainer and knows his stuff!
 

James Klymus

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Hi,

maybe somebody knows something about this kind of issue, might be a little specific, though.

I have gained quite some weight - first with body weight exercises, then with weight lifting.
Recently my legs burn like hell when I take short walks. Many different joints and muscles are a little stressed, but that issue it really getting to me.

The numbers: I gained around 13kg (28 lbs) ... which happens to be a 20% change (roughly). My suspicion is that my legs don't really like that increase.
I do squats every second workout. Maybe deadlifts should also help!?
The first few times I was hoping this would go away soon, but it seems to be getting worse rather than better.

Has anybody had similar issues ... or does anybody know anything scientific that I should look into?
If you’re doing squats, you’re working all your leg muscles. Including the small tendons and joints.

If you’re consistently getting stronger, then all of the tendons and joints will adapt to the heavier weight as you make slow steady progress.

I would make sure you’re taking days to recover too. I’m a big fan of 3 intense training sessions a week. That leaves me 4 days to recover.

I would take a couple days off and see if they stop burning. Also make sure you’re eating enough food.
 

s.wirat13

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Hi,

maybe somebody knows something about this kind of issue, might be a little specific, though.

I have gained quite some weight - first with body weight exercises, then with weight lifting.
Recently my legs burn like hell when I take short walks. Many different joints and muscles are a little stressed, but that issue it really getting to me.

The numbers: I gained around 13kg (28 lbs) ... which happens to be a 20% change (roughly). My suspicion is that my legs don't really like that increase.
I do squats every second workout. Maybe deadlifts should also help!?
The first few times I was hoping this would go away soon, but it seems to be getting worse rather than better.

Has anybody had similar issues ... or does anybody know anything scientific that I should look into?
Hi Andreas, I'm working as a sport physio here. I don't know how much I can help without having a physical examination but I'll try my best. Need more info, though.

1 How long have you been exercising?
2 Is the load still the same as you use to workout? If not, how much have you changed them? What is your program progression?
3 How much is your leg days in a week? How about your rest day?
4 How does the pain feel? (numb, dull, sharp, tingling, etc)
5 How much would you rate your pain from 0-10 in each following time of the day: morning, afternoon, evening and at night?
6 What are the other activities that aggravate your pain? and what ease it?
7 Do you feel the pain over the whole legs or is there any specific part?
8 Any underlying disease?
 

Azure

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You gained 28 lb and that was a 20% increase to your total bodyweight?

How quickly was this weight put on? 28lbs is a very significant amount of weight to add, especially at a low bodyweight. I'm running a fairly substantial AAS regimen, and I'd be extremely happy if I end up gaining that much lean weight in the next year. Doing so naturally would/should take several years.

From the sounds of it, your joints and tendons haven't adapted to the added weight and are not able to support the increased pressure. For every 1lb of added bodyweight, the increased pressure on the knees can be up to 30% more.

Without adequate time to adapt to this pressure, your lower joints suffer big time. Typically you only really see the type of rapid weight gain that will cause significant joint pressure when people begin a steroid cycle(s) much earlier than they should.

Look into joint strengthening exercises, up your dosages of calcium and vitD. Consider getting some blood work done, there may be an underlying factor here that is aggravating in addition to the added weight. Check your serum concentration of vitd, get a hormone panel to rule out any type of thyroid issues. Rapid weight changes in either direction as well as joint pain can both be indicators of a thyroid imbalance.
 

Bigguns50

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My experience with weight gain (muscle): I had a year or so of massive gains. I was super strong, big, and scary. But....my body hated it. I got winded walking up a flight of stairs. My quads and calves burned walking a half block. Flexibility...not so much. Over the past 4 years, I've downsized. I feel 100% better and my bloodwork is spot on.
 
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Andreas Thiel

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Thanks for the replies :)

@Zcott

No stretching ... but rest. The ergonomics at home could be a problem. At work I made sure I sit high enough for my legs to form a right angle. At home I sit a lot lower than that. Can't easily change that, because of the way the desk is built. Just thought of another way to fix that, though.
Because of other issues I did take one week rest periods ... two times I think. They alone did not change much.

@SWHi / @Mammoth

Bought the book. Just going to believe that it is a case of the productocracy at work, that is when people start sounding like affiliate partners ^^. Not cheap, not going to lie, but an easy purchase.

The weights I lift don't sound crazy. I do squats with the same weight I use for military press: around 15kg. Don't have a proper rack so I start by lifting the weights from the ground and over my head at this point. I also think it is mostly my heart rate that slows me down, not the muscles. More details below. Used a black roll when my back was trolling me, will look into what else I can do with that.

@James Klymus

Yeah, 3 full body workouts ... alternating A-B-A and B-A-B weeks on Mon, Wed and Fri. And I took whole weeks off two times.
In the beginning I filled Tue and Thu with Kettlebell Swings ... which I now skip most of the time because something in my body complains. In one of the weeks that I took off I did Kettlebell Swings instead of weight lifting.

@s.wirat13 / @Azure
I wrote the following early 2019 ...:
5. Finish the year above the 70kg barrier (I reached 65kg recently - up from 63kg and am around 187cm tall ... ouch
and I remember I reached almost 70kg by December but went back to 67 before I started gaining weight again in 2020.
That was all body weight. I think I did around 1,5 months more body weight in 2020, from then on it was weight lifting.

Can't get my hands on weights right now, but I think I'd raise them for the deadlifts if I didn't also experience unrelated (at least I think so) hip and loin issues. I do them with the maximum I have ... same as for bench press and barbell rows: 40kg + 8kg bar.

I started lower but continuously added on to that level fairly quickly.

I don't have a dedicated leg day ... and if deadlifts don't count as leg training then I do either 1 or 2 leg workouts per week, depending on the A-B-A or B-A-B cycle.
A: bench press, barbell rows, squats, B: pull-ups, military press, deadlifts

To describe the pain: There is almost no pain until I leave the house. I can tell that the next walk will be a challenge, that is pretty much it. I know some of that kind of pain from soccer. The immediate direction changes that involve the muscles in the shin come really close. It is pretty much like muscle soreness there, but extending upward through more muscles ... slightly beyond the knee. It is not the most intense pain and I don't notice it most of the time. Burning pain describes it pretty well .. can't say I remember much numbness or cramps or anything. I notice it when I walk ... to work in the morning, but especially when I withdraw money on weekends. That involves 2x 20 minutes of walking. The first steps are just annoying and after roughly 10 minutes it becomes a mental challenge to keep going.

Thanks @Azure, I am beginning to take this seriously. I have started with Creatine a few weeks ago and maybe that was a bit early? I'll read and add stretching etc.
If things don't improve that way I'll see a doctor ... or several.
 
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Andreas Thiel

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My experience with weight gain (muscle): I had a year or so of massive gains. I was super strong, big, and scary. But....my body hated it. I got winded walking up a flight of stairs. My quads and calves burned walking a half block. Flexibility...not so much. Over the past 4 years, I've downsized. I feel 100% better and my bloodwork is spot on.
Thanks ... that does sound like an experience that I should listen to. Scary stuff.
Downsizing is a bad solution for me personally. I feel like I might as well jump in front of a truck as an alternative solution.
 

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Bigguns50

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Thanks ... that does sound like an experience that I should listen to. Scary stuff.
Downsizing is a bad solution for me personally. I feel like I might as well jump in front of a truck as an alternative solution.
It all depends on where you are in your journey and what your goals are. Strength/size, ego driven, health, longevity. No right answer. Only your answer matters.
 

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Nutrition, water, sleep. All on point?
Blood work from doctor?
Massage therapist, what do they say?
Take a quick pop in to a physical therapist. Could be adaptation, muscle imbalance, or simply hydration (i get charlie horses in my thighs if low on water. very painful).

tldr; get experts to review and provide advice. then make your best decisions. AND then you have a framework for next time
 
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Andreas Thiel

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Nutrition, water, sleep. All on point?
Blood work from doctor?
Massage therapist, what do they say?
Take a quick pop in to a physical therapist. Could be adaptation, muscle imbalance, or simply hydration (i get charlie horses in my thighs if low on water. very painful).

tldr; get experts to review and provide advice. then make your best decisions. AND then you have a framework for next time
I think I sleep enough in general and drink enough on week days. Maybe slightly too little over the weekend.
Nutrition is probably too heavy on the carbs, don't yet know how to fix that.
I avoid doctors but if things get worse, sure. I'll have to consult an expert.

I do kinda feel like inflammation in different places might be something to look into.

Thanks for the pointers.
 

Bigguns50

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I had information issues as well. My C reactive protein (CRP) was high. I'm big on bloodwork...it actually saved my life once. I changed to a whole food, plant based diet. There's a LOT to learn but after 3.5 yrs, all is really, really, good.
 
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Andreas Thiel

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I had information issues as well. My C reactive protein (CRP) was high. I'm big on bloodwork...it actually saved my life once. I changed to a whole food, plant based diet. There's a LOT to learn but after 3.5 yrs, all is really, really, good.
Genetically speaking I should be all over regular check-ups. My family is really F*cked. My brother and sister are both unable to work. My mother has serious autoimmune issues (Hashimoto's disease).

The thing is ... over the years there were probably 100 reasonable explanations for our issues and none of the presribed cures actually helped.
There is a certain risk that some autoimmune issue is contributing. My mother started experiencing issues roughly around my current age. But I feel like the odds of identifying an actual problem that can be addressed are near zero. Might be a nasty bias I have ... sure ...
 

Bigguns50

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Genetically speaking I should be all over regular check-ups. My family is really F*cked. My brother and sister are both unable to work. My mother has serious autoimmune issues (Hashimoto's disease).

The thing is ... over the years there were probably 100 reasonable explanations for our issues and none of the presribed cures actually helped.
There is a certain risk that some autoimmune issue is contributing. My mother started experiencing issues roughly around my current age. But I feel like the odds of identifying an actual problem that can be addressed are near zero. Might be a nasty bias I have ... sure ...
I have an autoimmune disease as well. One reason I changed my diet. It helped immensely, but for the past year, it's been hell. No worries though. I understand that disease can be 'switched' off. The gene can be deactivated. I've spent countless hours researching (Google Scholar and such). I fully expect to get this gene turned off....it's a puzzle. Complicated. But there are solutions.

I'm having a full DNA of my gut biome mapped as I type this. While this is new research, it looks interesting. I'll have a personal probiotic formulated for any abnormalities I may have. This all takes time so we'll see.

My point with all this is don't quite. Do. Not. Quite. The medical community is amazing ! Don't follow the mainstream media.

One more quickie...3.5 yrs ago I completely ruptured my right quadriceps tendon (read, tore in half). Big surgery. 189 days in rehab (some numbers stay with us). Last week I hiked up over 1,600 ft, 5 miles. No problem. I'm not bragging. Anyone can do anything. Oh yea. I'm 58, so there's that too. Don't quite.
 

AceVentures

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I think I sleep enough in general and drink enough on week days. Maybe slightly too little over the weekend.
Nutrition is probably too heavy on the carbs, don't yet know how to fix that.
I avoid doctors but if things get worse, sure. I'll have to consult an expert.

I do kinda feel like inflammation in different places might be something to look into.

Thanks for the pointers.
After 3 years of serious bodybuilding training, I've learned a thing or two.

I had all kinds of leg pains. Body pains. All pains. I thought it's OK cause I'm sore from lifting and being so active. WRONG.

You shouldn't feel in pain.

If your legs hurt, its your body warning you of potential injuries ahead.

STOP what you're doing, because you might make some irreparable damage.

First, drop down in weight across your heavy movements, and rework fundamentals. Ensure proper form. Get deep burn. Work in the 12-15 rep range for 2-3 weeks. This will help with stability, balance, control, and any way you might have been overcompensating with wrong muscle groups, leading to pain.

Next, start a mobilirt routine ASAP. I recommend daily. Idc who you are, if you're not doing proper mobility work, your lifting catches up eventually and youre F*cked with pains and injuries.

I recommend looking up AthleanX and adopting several of his different routines into your own fot specific pain areas. Spend 15-20 mins daily on stretching. The best way to do it is to do it however is to do yoga. 20-30 minutes a day has changed my life.

Before each workout, do 10-20mins of stretching + foam rolling. On your off days, do foam rolling. During the mornings, do foam rolling. I think you get the point - passive recocery aint enough. You need to do deep tissue work in order to properly heal and endure more weights.

If anything I've said seems like too much, or is too woo-woo seeming, reread it and ask me anything you want. I promise you if you do this part right you'll go much further. For one, you'll avoid injury and setbacks, and two, you'll be MUCH more in tune with your body and what you're capable of. You'll also be cured of most pains.

Cheers.
 

sparechange

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Most likely over training and under resting, seems to be a common problem. In the world of weight lifting less is actually more, unless you are juicing it up.

The trainer of Canadas best athlete GSP recommends to never be sore from a workout.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dKJzSvm6FI
 
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s.wirat13

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Thanks for the replies :)

@Zcott

No stretching ... but rest. The ergonomics at home could be a problem. At work I made sure I sit high enough for my legs to form a right angle. At home I sit a lot lower than that. Can't easily change that, because of the way the desk is built. Just thought of another way to fix that, though.
Because of other issues I did take one week rest periods ... two times I think. They alone did not change much.

@SWHi / @Mammoth

Bought the book. Just going to believe that it is a case of the productocracy at work, that is when people start sounding like affiliate partners ^^. Not cheap, not going to lie, but an easy purchase.

The weights I lift don't sound crazy. I do squats with the same weight I use for military press: around 15kg. Don't have a proper rack so I start by lifting the weights from the ground and over my head at this point. I also think it is mostly my heart rate that slows me down, not the muscles. More details below. Used a black roll when my back was trolling me, will look into what else I can do with that.

@James Klymus

Yeah, 3 full body workouts ... alternating A-B-A and B-A-B weeks on Mon, Wed and Fri. And I took whole weeks off two times.
In the beginning I filled Tue and Thu with Kettlebell Swings ... which I now skip most of the time because something in my body complains. In one of the weeks that I took off I did Kettlebell Swings instead of weight lifting.

@s.wirat13 / @Azure
I wrote the following early 2019 ...:

and I remember I reached almost 70kg by December but went back to 67 before I started gaining weight again in 2020.
That was all body weight. I think I did around 1,5 months more body weight in 2020, from then on it was weight lifting.

Can't get my hands on weights right now, but I think I'd raise them for the deadlifts if I didn't also experience unrelated (at least I think so) hip and loin issues. I do them with the maximum I have ... same as for bench press and barbell rows: 40kg + 8kg bar.

I started lower but continuously added on to that level fairly quickly.

I don't have a dedicated leg day ... and if deadlifts don't count as leg training then I do either 1 or 2 leg workouts per week, depending on the A-B-A or B-A-B cycle.
A: bench press, barbell rows, squats, B: pull-ups, military press, deadlifts

To describe the pain: There is almost no pain until I leave the house. I can tell that the next walk will be a challenge, that is pretty much it. I know some of that kind of pain from soccer. The immediate direction changes that involve the muscles in the shin come really close. It is pretty much like muscle soreness there, but extending upward through more muscles ... slightly beyond the knee. It is not the most intense pain and I don't notice it most of the time. Burning pain describes it pretty well .. can't say I remember much numbness or cramps or anything. I notice it when I walk ... to work in the morning, but especially when I withdraw money on weekends. That involves 2x 20 minutes of walking. The first steps are just annoying and after roughly 10 minutes it becomes a mental challenge to keep going.

Thanks @Azure, I am beginning to take this seriously. I have started with Creatine a few weeks ago and maybe that was a bit early? I'll read and add stretching etc.
If things don't improve that way I'll see a doctor ... or several.
This is what I gather from what you say (which still need more thorough questions and there are a lot more to be questions and indeed, need a physical examination)

One thing I'm sure, just like the others have said, is that it is a prolonged over-training. For every workout, you are completely fine to feel the soreness but never the pain. It is your body telling you that something isn't right and you should try to find the problem before continuing.

According to what you say, your muscle is in the proliferation phase, with some tissue damage. So we can rule out inflammation or any chemical level related injury. It is mechanical related which involve muscle activation. I suspect muscle or nerve interface which involve more examination. I think you should look up the Compartment Syndrome. You seem to have problems in other areas too. The cause of this may come from hip, knee, back or even foot if we dig it deeper.

What I suggest to you to do right now is to skip all the leg workout right now. Rest for a couple of day and see how does it feel. Doing a gentle full body stretch in the morning and evening (If it is painful, stop and see physio). Have more protein, vitamins and omega 3 to speed up the recovery.

Take my hypothesis as a grain of salt because there are so many topics we need to probe on and physical examination is needed. If thing is not better after resting for a couple of days, please see the physio.

PS. Rest is a vital part of your workout. It is a part of your progression too.
 
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Andreas Thiel

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How many days between workouts?
Workouts: Mon, Wed, Fri ...
For Squats it is basically: Mon, Fri, Wed - Repeat

@sparechange

Looks interesting. I'll watch the video when I have the time.

This is what I gather from what you say (which still need more thorough questions and there are a lot more to be questions and indeed, need a physical examination)

One thing I'm sure, just like the others have said, is that it is a prolonged over-training. For every workout, you are completely fine to feel the soreness but never the pain. It is your body telling you that something isn't right and you should try to find the problem before continuing.

According to what you say, your muscle is in the proliferation phase, with some tissue damage. So we can rule out inflammation or any chemical level related injury. It is mechanical related which involve muscle activation. I suspect muscle or nerve interface which involve more examination. I think you should look up the Compartment Syndrome. You seem to have problems in other areas too. The cause of this may come from hip, knee, back or even foot if we dig it deeper.

What I suggest to you to do right now is to skip all the leg workout right now. Rest for a couple of day and see how does it feel. Doing a gentle full body stretch in the morning and evening (If it is painful, stop and see physio). Have more protein, vitamins and omega 3 to speed up the recovery.

Take my hypothesis as a grain of salt because there are so many topics we need to probe on and physical examination is needed. If thing is not better after resting for a couple of days, please see the physio.

PS. Rest is a vital part of your workout. It is a part of your progression too.
Took a first glimpse at Compartment Syndrome. The part about circulation seemed interesting.
I currently wear jeans that might just be to tight around the waist ... bought them 10kg ago.
Just a first thought that came to mind, though. Mostly this is one reason in favor of consulting an expert.

I did an "Osteopath" Google search ... and am thinking about how I want to play this. Another round of volume based training to spot issues is on the table. Making an appointment as soon as I can force myself to do it is another. Hip mobility is my personal suspect right now. It is something that people commented on way back when I did martial arts.
Stretching the bigger muscles in the upper leg felt important this morning. Guess I will rest and go through the Leopard book ... try to self diagnose for a while, unless it becomes obvious that things get worse rather than better.
 

Jon L

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Like some of the other responders on here, I've done a fair amount of weightlifting over the years. I'm not a professional (doctor, PT, etc), but I have read a fair amount, and been there done that myself.

This seems like a bad kind of pain to me. You don't seem to be training enough to have it be something simple like overtraining or the like. If it were me, I'd see a sports medicine doctor. A regular family practice doc, unless they happen to have an interest in sports medicine, will probably be pretty useless. (i've seen a few about weightlifting injuries, and I get the distinct feeling when talking to them that I know more than they do about what we're talking about.) A sports medicine doctor, however, will likely be really helpful. Some of them can be amazing.

I also agree with the advice above that this kind of pain is telling you something. You need to back off and let it resolve itself, or you could start to cause irreparable harm. This kind of damage usually doesn't happen all at once (though it can). It will build up until you've made a mess of yourself.
 

Matthew Hinton

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Things that have helped me most when I ran into this problem:

Decreasing weight and focusing on perfect form.

Create tension where it should be in the muscles and get familiar with how that feels.

Don’t sacrifice form to add weight.

Leave 1-2 reps in the tank instead of doing all you can do every workout. Especially if your hitting legs 3 times a week.

Think of it as practicing the movement and not just moving as much weight as possible.

Provide your muscles with the right amount of stimulus to grow. No more, no less.
 
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Andreas Thiel

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@Patrick Besong

Thanks. It is mostly the outside of my lower leg .. but it extends upward slightly beyond the knee.
Maybe tight clothing has to do with it, but there is no numbness involved. Just soreness.
That is why I am still leaning towards wrong form / movement as the cause.

@Matthew Hinton

Trying to do this after reading about the proper form in "Become a Supple Leopard".

Findings so far:

I think I may have given up on involving glutes and core when I walk at some point ... mostly just falling forward with each step.
I suppose I still tried to not let the arch of foot collapse, but controlled the movement mostly from the ankles.
With the extra weight I have gained, maybe that became more problematic over time.
Now I am trying to control the movement more from the hips ... meaning I walk around like a T-800 (without the impressive body and not naked).

I think I have the mobility for most tests, but need to actually remember to do things properly. When it comes to Pistols (just the stance, not the actual motion) I have a hard time. But I think it is more of a strength / control issue rather than range of motion. More interesting is probably that my sholders are usually pulled up and forward, so I try to get the mid-line stabilization right as often as possible.

Noticed several issues with movements that I don't think contribute to the leg pains, but they are still interesting ... like not stabilizing the shoulders when I bench press, knees wobbling inward casually for the last few Squat repetitions and not quite finishing the tunnel movement between the archetypical stances sometimes.
 

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