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OFF-TOPIC They want to amend the IL constitution to eAT tHE rICH

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MJ DeMarco

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When I first read this thread, my first thought was, "Whew, glad I live in Arizona, that would never happen here."

Boy was I wrong.

Wow, Californians move to AZ in droves, And they bring their socialist policies with them. Whoda thunk.

I've been in AZ for 23 years. Pretty much loved every year.

However this year something changed. We noticed it was the first year ever in 2+ decades that we considered to leave, at least the metro area. Between the traffic, the air quality, the shift in politics, the CV19 overreach, we started discussing it. The state has been infected with same disease that is killing Texas, and that disease is called California. And get this, our governor, senate, and house are controlled by Republicans, so this isn't just about left-wing ideology. And now after learning of this prop, the writing is on the wall, at least if it passes. I found it of a bit "prophetic" (and shocking) that such a proposition even made it to the ballot-- Arizona tends to stop these ridiculous things from making it to the ballot -- but insightful that our ideas about leaving were not unfounded.

I left Chicago 23 years ago for the same freaking reason, aside from lack of sunshine -- and it was the best decision I ever made in my life. At this point, I'm not even sure how Arizona can survive when it comes to the water supply. I live in a farming type area with horses, chickens and even cattle. When I leave my neighborhood, it's bumper to bumper traffic. It's a bit of an odd mix to feel like you're in the country, but gridlock is everywhere as soon as you leave the fields behind.

The good news is, I expect the proposition to be defeated. I have faith that Arizonians are smart and not stupid enough to fall for the "it's for the children" narrative. I refuse to be forced to pay tens of thousands of dollars for an "education system" which teaches children that people like me, are the enemy -- and I should be punished accordingly. It's like being forced to fund the gallows for which I will be hung.

Nope.

I'll move to Costa Rica or the middle of Montana before I willingly accept that BS. And I'll be gloriously happy with the decision -- when you have a cancerous tumor, you remove it...

...in this case, you leave it.
 

Kak

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So uh.. I just got this as a pamphlet in the mail, they want to change the flat rate income tax in IL to be able to randomly assign a tax rate to "the wealthy" and the arguments "pro-change" they give....... it's like Bernie wrote it. Idk, you be the judge. Somewhere in a deep forest a bald eagle loses a feather (?)
@Kak


Can't say I am surprised.

Communism, coming to a country near you.

At what point does the government "own" the means of production? What percentage?

With 75% taxation... Do you really own your business? No. You just manage it for the government. They own 3x more of what YOU PRODUCE than you. Think about that...

With a full blown communist revolution where the government nationalizes everything, how much more could they get out of someone than 75%? Probably nothing. They have just got everyone fooled into thinking that they own their businesses at this point.

I would argue this is when people Galt off to 3rd world beach and stop shaving.
 
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JAJT

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What doesn't help is that the average person has no clue how taxation works at the corporate level.

Your average person, and literally EVERYONE I've talked to about the subject, thinks that companies pay "zero tax" because "loopholes".

They really don't like it when you explain that Amazon has paid literally billions in tax, it just happens to not SPECIFICALLY be "income tax". By the time I start explaining how you can't tax profit if there is none they've already moved onto other arguments, moved the goal posts, or simply said "well it's still not right".

What's worse is that if you google "how much tax does (company) pay", you get 99% of articles explaining that they paid zero, how immoral it is, how much they earned vs the zero they paid, etc... You practically have to look at their damn year end finance report to find the amounts they've paid in other taxes. Nobody is reporting on how much they DID pay, just how much they DIDN'T, despite that being a number that doesn't matter because it didn't apply!

Not to mention that anything the owner, managers, or employees bring home is taxed, every purchase the company makes is taxed, all real estate the company owns is taxed, etc, etc, etc...

Companies pay tax. A lot of it. Just not "income tax". Because you can't pay tax on $0. It's really not hard to grasp.

But all the media and misconception leaves people thinking that rich people and companies pay literally nothing in tax. This makes it easier to support silly "tax the rich" concepts. Education in this area really needs to be increased.
 

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SamRussell

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"fair" tax. That word has been abused. "Fair" is whatever two consenting parties agree... stealing a person's wealth because you can't produce anything of value yourself isn't fair. Punishing someone for making the things that you value is just plain stupid.

We're seeing an inversion of morality.
 

MJ DeMarco

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Illinois: It's like eating your left arm because you're hungry!
 

MJ DeMarco

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Well, I just learned today that Arizona has its own "soak the rich" plan.

If Proposition 208 passes in Arizona it will be my last year as having Arizona as my primary residence. I will move. Prop 208 is basically a tax on the rich, compliments of the socialist idiots that have moved here, and the teacher's unions. If it passes, it will make Arizona one of the highest taxed states in the country, at least for people like me.

If it passes, I leave.

It is that simple.

IMG_1343.JPG
 

BizyDad

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Well personally I won't be affected.
Not with that kind of attitude you won't. ;)

"Well personally I won't be affected, yet."

There I fixed it for you. :smile:
 

WJK

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So uh.. I just got this as a pamphlet in the mail, they want to change the flat rate income tax in IL to be able to randomly assign a tax rate to "the wealthy" and the arguments "pro-change" they give....... it's like Bernie wrote it. Idk, you be the judge. Somewhere in a deep forest a bald eagle loses a feather (?)
@Kak


Those who aren't successful, hate those who are. When I was young and working very hard, while I got my education, they said I needed to get a life. I was stupid to work so hard. And I didn't need higher education -- just an Mrs. degree (marrying the right man). When I was in middle years, they told me that I was just lucky to have a good career and my life on track. They were blown away that I had it together and they didn't. They didn't connect my hard work and education with that success. Now that I am retired and enjoying the fruits of my labors, they really want to tax me to point that I must give it all back. They want their share. Uh? Where were they when I was work, saving and investing?
 

Kak

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Well a lot of people here in America seem to be against school choice and private education. I wonder why? Maybe because it's become an indoctrination not an education.

I couldn't care less about public policy concerning "education." My only opinion is that they should be honest and rename it to obedience training and conditioning.

If my kids learn from me, of course, the world will label it "indoctrination." I call what public schools are doing "indoctrination."

Go look up and read the pledge of allegiance. My kids aren't saying that shit. I can't believe I did without thought.

They'll all say it is privilege that my kids got to learn from me. SO WHAT? Parents should be responsible to, and set examples for, their children. We don't have kids to create wards of the state. Identical drones of parroted statism. Why even have kids if this is what parenting is about?

They will be fortunate enough to be born into a home that believes in freedom and self-education. It is part of the legacy I can share. God only knows if my kids will ever be allowed to be my financial beneficiaries. If that is going to be how it goes, they damn sure will benefit from my name.

The question lies with who is right and who is wrong. Freedom, my friends, is right. No argument. You believe in freedom or you're wrong.

All of this said, my kids will never set foot in a public school building, which the mere existence of, churns my stomach.

Stupidity is the reason for the world's problems. Assumed and default education is the reason for stupidity.
 
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BellaPippin

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reedracer

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We'll all become 'tax birds' and fly to where the tax rate weather is fairer.
Today that's Puerto Rico. I really need to move there.
 

James Klymus

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I keep seeing the commercials for the "Fair tax" whenever I watch hulu. It sucks when you're trying to relax, then you see some political BS that gets you worked up. Gotta love election season.

And also, All of the normies love to hear "make the wealthy pay their fair share", But in reality the wealthy will just move somewhere more tax friendly, Like PR. Then they take all that tax revenue, and opportunity with them, leaving behind a state that will become objectively worse.

It's what California is doing, And a lot of wealthy people are leaving NY city due to the instability, rioting and unfair lockdowns. These people in office pander to the politically ignorant, even if it messes up their state's tax revenue
 

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"fair" tax. That word has been abused. "Fair" is whatever two consenting parties agree... stealing a person's wealth because you can't produce anything of value yourself isn't fair. Punishing someone for making the things that you value is just plain stupid.

We're seeing an inversion of morality.

When discussing taxation here are two more words that also get abused: stealing and punishing. It's also interesting that you redefined the word fair to suit your perspective. Your definition of the word doesn't actually exist.

The idea of a progressive tax has been bandied about since the days of the founding fathers and first implemented by Lincoln. It is a decidedly American innovation on governance. Now the land of Lincoln wants to pursue that policy further and people want to lose their minds and civility.

Let's keep in mind that this country was arguably greatest in the years after WWII (if you fall for the propoganda). Fun fact, that was also the period of our highest ever taxation rates as a country.

We seemed to come through that ok.

So let's not abuse history by suggesting that any of this debate is some new "inversion of morality".

No one calls the following ideas immoral or unfair.

"To whom much is given, much will be required".

"With greater power comes great responsibility".

Progressive taxation is founded on the same moral principle. Every form of taxation has its issues and consequences, and I enjoy hearing intelligent commentary on the pros and cons of those.

But this comment was just more propoganda to counter the other propoganda, and I just wanted to call it out as such. I don't believe in villifing either side of the debate as "immoral". That solves nothing. It only sews further division.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for higher taxes or less taxes here. I'm advocating for civility in our discourse and a greater awareness of historical context.
 

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thechosen1

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When discussing taxation here are two more words that also get abused: stealing and punishing. It's also interesting that you redefined the word fair to suit your perspective. Your definition of the word doesn't actually exist.

The idea of a progressive tax has been bandied about since the days of the founding fathers and first implemented by Lincoln. It is a decidedly American innovation on governance. Now the land of Lincoln wants to pursue that policy further and people want to lose their minds and civility.

Let's keep in mind that this country was arguably greatest in the years after WWII (if you fall for the propoganda). Fun fact, that was also the period of our highest ever taxation rates as a country.

We seemed to come through that ok.

So let's not abuse history by suggesting that any of this debate is some new "inversion of morality".

No one calls the following ideas immoral or unfair.

"To whom much is given, much will be required".

"With greater power comes great responsibility".

Progressive taxation is founded on the same moral principle. Every form of taxation has its issues and consequences, and I enjoy hearing intelligent commentary on the pros and cons of those.

But this comment was just more propoganda to counter the other propoganda, and I just wanted to call it out as such. I don't believe in villifing either side of the debate as "immoral". That solves nothing. It only sews further division.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for higher taxes or less taxes here. I'm advocating for civility in our discourse and a greater awareness of historical context.
wow. I disagree with everything you said. Appeal to tradition, with premises I don’t believe in (no, FDR abusing his presidential terms was not our greatest period in history - the generation who fought in the wars are just called the “greatest generation.”)

the quotes you used also are not commonly used to raise taxes. You’re using power/ responsibility to replace the common communist phrase of “from each according to his ability to each according to his need,” which, if you actually talk to people, many disagree with. It’s a terrible way to build an economy because it’s designed to cannibalize itself.

Anyway, we can politely disagree, just thought I would point out your assumptions about what others believe are wrong...

If you want to know what the other side believes, ask them.

dont tell them what they believe.
 

SamRussell

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Progressive taxation is founded on the same moral principle.

I don't believe in villifing either side of the debate as "immoral". That solves nothing. It only sews further division.

It isn't the politest way to discuss the issue, but it is the most accurate.

Seeming as you have said this is a moral issue... and given that we have two diametric opinions, one must be moral and the other immoral... why shy away from making a judgement?

Other things that sow division: Straw man arguments, ad hominem. Random statements with no reasoning. Etc.
 

Jon L

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We all have a crush on Hank Rearden, duh. In my mind he looks like Michael Fassbender and Jessica Chastain is Dagny Taggart.
I listened to the autobiography of Henry Ford a bit ago, and am now working my way through JD Rockefeller. Its almost as if Atlas Shrugged was written about these various titans of industry back then...
 

James Klymus

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Coincidentally, I've already been looking at all those places before I even knew about the Prop, even Washington and South Dakota. This Prop 208 thing actually has made it quite a possibility. My home in Sedona will be my secondary residence, I'll take primary elsewhere. I will have no hesitation in leaving since we've already been discussing it.

Wow, Californians move to AZ in droves, And they bring their socialist policies with them. Whoda thunk.

I thought it was silly that people were worried that people would bring their socialist policies with them to Arizona. Now not so much. It seems like Montana, the Dakotas, Wyoming etc will be the last frontier for American values.

When these people vote for this shit, Why do they not understand that wealthy people have the means and connections to just pick up and leave, and take their money and tax revenue with them? And if things got so bad in America, they would move to another country. It's like the cat/tuna analogy. These people are trying to chase after the rich, and capture them, forcing them to pay higher taxes. But they can't be caught, they can only be attracted at their own will, Ex. Puerto Rico. Low taxes have attracted a lot of wealthy people.
 

WabiSabi

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I don't like to get conspiratorial, But I don't think "the system" (School, government) will ever teach the general pop.

This. The U.S school system is so laughably bad; it's a stretch to even call it education at this point. I don't think it's conspiracy, I think it's just incompetence. Socialism inherently appeals to the ignorant, uneducated and lower class.

There's never been a better time for privatized education. We have the technology and teachers. Use the best teachers, videos, graphics, powerpoints, worksheets. Why settle for mediocre and bloated school systems? Anyone with an internet connection should have access to a QUALITY education, irrespective of where they live.

Things started to go downhill when we stopped following the Greek and Roman models and those that forget history are doomed to repeat it.
 

BellaPippin

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This is the future of America if leftest take and maintain control. They firmly believe that wealthy people are evil and the source of their problems.

Canada is the last frontier, but nobody wants to freeze 364 days of the year
 

xmartel

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Canada, eh!
Canada is the last frontier, but nobody wants to freeze 364 days of the year

It's not any better up here. We already have a tiered income tax system at the federal and provincial levels.
It's amazing how people keep thinking a flat tax isn't fair, they don't seem to understand how percentages work. If you make more money, you pay more money in tax.

We also have other ridiculous taxes such as a carbon tax.
 

thechosen1

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Canada is the last frontier, but nobody wants to freeze 364 days of the year

No offense to any Canadians here, in fact, you're better without most of us

Wow I just looked up taxation in Canada and was shocked that (at least for federal income taxes) y’all have lower rates than we do in the US... lol
It's not any better up here. We already have a tiered income tax system at the federal and provincial levels.
It's amazing how people keep thinking a flat tax isn't fair, they don't seem to understand how percentages work. If you make more money, you pay more money in tax.

We also have other ridiculous taxes such as a carbon tax.

I've been saying this since I was 15. No, I was not a 15 year-old billionaire (lol) or son of a billionaire. The question has always been... why do we have progressive taxation levels if percentages inherently scale on their own?

Oh well, griping about government is not helpful for the fastlane. But sometimes I can't help it :)
 
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Here

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It was written 35 years earlier
That's fascinating, I didn't realize the gap was that small. Just looked it up and apparently he chose the 80s because he wanted to show the vision would be happening in their lifetimes if things didn't turn around fast. #todayilearned
 

WabiSabi

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Let's keep in mind that this country was arguably greatest in the years after WWII (if you fall for the propoganda). Fun fact, that was also the period of our highest ever taxation rates as a country.

The west was at it's peak sometime pre-WWII, The U.S was just the last man standing. Pretty easy to compete when half of Europe is a smoking crater and the other half is mismanaged by communists.
 

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Canada is the last frontier, but nobody wants to freeze 364 days of the year
Hey it's not THAT bad. Look Tim Hortons is still open!
 

Saavedra

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When discussing taxation here are two more words that also get abused: stealing and punishing. It's also interesting that you redefined the word fair to suit your perspective. Your definition of the word doesn't actually exist.

The idea of a progressive tax has been bandied about since the days of the founding fathers and first implemented by Lincoln. It is a decidedly American innovation on governance. Now the land of Lincoln wants to pursue that policy further and people want to lose their minds and civility.

Let's keep in mind that this country was arguably greatest in the years after WWII (if you fall for the propoganda). Fun fact, that was also the period of our highest ever taxation rates as a country.

We seemed to come through that ok.

So let's not abuse history by suggesting that any of this debate is some new "inversion of morality".

No one calls the following ideas immoral or unfair.

"To whom much is given, much will be required".

"With greater power comes great responsibility".

Progressive taxation is founded on the same moral principle. Every form of taxation has its issues and consequences, and I enjoy hearing intelligent commentary on the pros and cons of those.

But this comment was just more propoganda to counter the other propoganda, and I just wanted to call it out as such. I don't believe in villifing either side of the debate as "immoral". That solves nothing. It only sews further division.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for higher taxes or less taxes here. I'm advocating for civility in our discourse and a greater awareness of historical context.

Taxation is theft. If you don't pay taxes, they violently put you in jail. By force. With guns. How is that moral.
 

WabiSabi

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Taxation is theft. If you don't pay taxes, they violently put you in jail. By force. With guns. How is that moral.

Because you (de jure) benefit from the protection and laws of the state. Human beings without government would kill, and steal from each other indiscriminately. Not many people would willingly live in an area where no rules exist. Human nature is brutal, violent, and self destructive. If some viking came around burned my house, and jacked my stuff I'd pay a dude (the state) to protect my property.

The problem with the state these days is the social contract (de facto) is being broken on many levels. It's losing it's legitimacy through incompetence and mismanagement, in some ways like a failed state.

It'd be nice if we didn't have to pay taxes but it's a necessary evil. I have a bigger problem with government incompetence.
 

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MJ DeMarco

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Where would you go? Nevada? Wyoming? Texas?

Coincidentally, I've already been looking at all those places before I even knew about the Prop, even Washington and South Dakota. This Prop 208 thing actually has made it quite a possibility. My home in Sedona will be my secondary residence, I'll take primary elsewhere. I will have no hesitation in leaving since we've already been discussing it.
 
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