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The Worldwide C0VlD-19 Coronavirus Pandemic Discussion Thread...

Bearcorp

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I’m old enough to be salty about the way the pandemic has been handled, and the impact that’s had on many companies, mine to a smaller degree than others, a number of companies I work with in different capacities, friends companies, and businesses, small to large in general. From ones I use, to ones I observe, wether that be locally or globally.

It’s not that I disagree with what your saying specifically, it’s that you’ve joined this thread long after all these points have been discussed, and rather than me not agreeing with you, your point of view is “it doesn’t affect or impact me so I don’t get it” Wether that’s business related, mental health related, whatever it might be.

You’re right though, your free to share your point of view on this thread, you haven’t done anything wrong according to the forum guidelines, so continue to be bemused about how the rest of the world lives.
 
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ChrisV

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DayIFly

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I guess I am just an extreme introvert then...I got use to being alone when going hard in entrepreneurship, as I am working/researching all the time. I can comfortably have zero social interaction for months and be completely happy.
I think the cause of increased suicide or depression is not the lockdown, but because people lack purpose.

What most people’s lives focus on is just getting drunk on the weekend, watch sports, etc. So essentially this was their purpose in life, but it has been taken away.
As a thoughts experiment, what if your internet connection got suddenly taken away for good? Would you then have lost your purpose? Would you finally feel like it's appropriate to leave your dwelling grounds for once, after enjoying the comfort of monthslong zero social interactions? Well, guess what, you can't, the governmnet says so, deal with it. Everybody has their own way to cope with life's struggles..
 

WillHurtDontCare

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WillHurtDontCare

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Didn't expect to see Zizek on this forum. Good stuff, thank you for this video.

Edit: Halfway through the video - Zizek is interesting, the interviewer, meh. He keeps asking Zizek what he thinks about communism as a label, and it is a mark of lesser minds to give too much value to labels. The combined volumes of Das Kapital amounted to what, 1,000-2,000 pages? And you think that any a label can adequately condense that thought?

Zizek also stated that he used to be a Heideggerian, which would certainly complicate the idea of him merely being a student of Marx. IIRC, he said that he's a Hegelian, which mean that he aligns his ideas more with Marx's teacher than with Marx. But as I mentioned previously, labels are pseudo-understanding or even negative understanding, where you think that you know something but you don't.

Also, the interview's conflation of authoritarianism and communism was annoying. Communism certainly had its authoritarian elements, possibly the worst out of any regime in history; but to treat authoritarianism and communism as the same thing means that you'll miss authoritarianism when it pops up elsewhere. We've seen ample authoritarianism at all levels of democratic government lately. It's part of human nature.

My lazy analysis: Zizek was interesting, but too much "You're a communist? But communism bad. You should be a Zizekist instead" by the interview. Worth watching though for Zizek.
 
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Bearcorp

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MitchM

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To me this whole pandemic has told the story of the collective versus the individual (freedom).

The following is not to discount the threat, but to put it in the proper context. Also, I want to state that I’m not against there being measures taken to reduce the toll that the pandemic takes... although I am of the opinion that individuals should be taking the bulk of the responsibility. So:
  • 61,000 Americans died from the flu in the 2017 season
  • Roughly 40,000 Americans die from car accidents every year, with 3mil non-fatal injuries
  • Over 600,000 deaths from cancer in 2019
  • Roughly 50,000 deaths from suicide each year
  • Roughly 300,000 deaths due to obesity each year
As you can see, I’ve only selected five causes of death that are non-age related, and we have already passed the million mark.

Death is always looming over us and yet we still go on with our lives as usual. We do it to such a degree that many of us become obese, smoke heavily, drink and drive, etc... all while knowing the risks.

The reason we are seeing such a response to this virus is because, in this instance, what other people are doing matters. Of course, this holds true for many other infectious diseases (such as the flu), but this is a NEW threat! With a new threat comes fear.

What happens when you mix together fear and collective responsibility? Well, you inevitably get abuse of power.

You get people advocating to have their rights taken from themselves and others - “for their own good.”

It would be one thing if this virus were actually as deadly as we were initially led to believe, but even with the facts we have now - we already gave an inch. Too late. Each side has already picked their battle and dug their trenches.

As a side note, I’m not personally of the belief that most people keeping tight restrictions are doing it because they are power hungry. I think fear plays a large role. “What happens if we loosen up control and it leads to more deaths - and I’m to blame for it?” for example. It is certainly a mixed bag of motivations.

And now we see one of the defining features of social media’s last five years coming into full throttle and having a real effect. Virtue signaling.

You’d think all of these people who want to protect the sick and elderly with an authoritarian hand would be doctors and nurses. You’d think that they donate 50% of their yearly salary to cancer research. You’d think they were courageous individuals speaking up about the plague of obesity that is killing hundreds of thousands.

Once again we see that when a simple solution is offered by big daddy government, people are all too ready to support it under the guise of ethics. Of course I’m sure that most of them really do believe it is the right thing to do, but it’s dissonant.

With this pandemic, a harsh light has been cast on what our future holds when a more serious threat inevitably comes.

The majority will again lobby for some form of enslavement, as it is the “rational” thing to do.

I don’t want to sound over-dramatic, but I’m afraid that this will serve as a litmus test for when the question of liberty or death has real teeth to it. A 1 in 10,000 chance of dying is just too much for us who have the comfort of Netflix and a government that can keep handing out checks.

America is truly divided. The rights of the individual have become laughable to the majority, and with ease. As a whole, we have no philosophical bearings. We’ve become distant from our foundations.

Worse than C0VlD-19, a mind-virus has proliferated and prospered in America’s weakened, comfortable, and deluded minds. If there is a cure, it’s better ideas.

Unfortunately, even the ability of those to spread seems to be weaker and weaker as time passes.
 

David Harrison

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I think Levine puts things into perspective, and this was "before" the scam!
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=135&v=aOfbUiDhjCE&feature=emb_logo


Also, read this article of his, it'll explain how TV creates the zombie nations.

When you're arguing inside the "narrative", the matrix has YOU. ; )
 
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DayIFly

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Didn't expect to see Zizek on this forum. Good stuff, thank you for this video.

Edit: Halfway through the video - Zizek is interesting, the interviewer, meh. He keeps asking Zizek what he thinks about communism as a label, and it is a mark of lesser minds to give too much value to labels. The combined volumes of Das Kapital amounted to what, 1,000-2,000 pages? And you think that any a label can adequately condense that thought?

Zizek also stated that he used to be a Heideggerian, which would certainly complicate the idea of him merely being a student of Marx. IIRC, he said that he's a Hegelian, which mean that he aligns his ideas more with Marx's teacher than with Marx. But as I mentioned previously, labels are pseudo-understanding or even negative understanding, where you think that you know something but you don't.

Also, the interview's conflation of authoritarianism and communism was annoying. Communism certainly had its authoritarian elements, possibly the worst out of any regime in history; but to treat authoritarianism and communism as the same thing means that you'll miss authoritarianism when it pops up elsewhere. We've seen ample authoritarianism at all levels of democratic government lately. It's part of human nature.

My lazy analysis: Zizek was interesting, but too much "You're a communist? But communism bad. You should be a Zizekist instead" by the interview. Worth watching though for Zizek.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIQp4KMwqwk

Sorry, I couldn't contain myself.
 

Kak

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I am going to call it for @Rivoli. He was right all along and I’m about to put this thread on mute.
It has been fun, but I’m probably going to die an early death of rage sourced heart disease if I keep this up.

I might have to go sailboat shopping just to equal me out.


Coronavirus. Is. A....




NOTHINGBURGER
 

ChrisV

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joo know... thee same ees with donald trump *sniffle* *sniffle* *slurp* he ees the ooltamate example of post-----modernity.... eef you look at bernie sanders *sniffle* he ees a traditional moralist

Lol, the actual reason Zizek does that is because he has a nervous Tic. He hates speaking publicly (and hates people in general) but they all want him to speak so bad that he just does it.
 
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Kak

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This quote is a fake. You should check your sources, this is part of the problem, you know, people repeating nonsense without questioning anything by themselves.

It sure sounds like something he would say...

"The greater the crime perpetrated by the leadership, the less likely it is that the people will ever believe their leaders to be capable of perpetrating such an event." ~ Adolf Hitler

"It is a quite special secret pleasure how the people around us fail to realize what is really happening to them." ~ Adolf Hitler

"Let me control the textbooks, and I will control the state." ~ Adolf Hitler

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." ~ Adolf Hitler

"Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death." ~ Adolf Hitler

"The receptivity of the masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous. In consequence of these facts, all effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these in slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand by your slogan." ~ Adolf Hitler

"It is not truth that matters, but victory." ~ Adolf Hitler

"By means of shrewd lies, unremittingly repeated, it is possible to make people believe that heaven is hell - and hell heaven. The greater the lie, the more readily it will be believed." ~ Adolf Hitler

"To whom should propaganda be addressed? To the scientifically trained intelligentsia or the less educated masses? It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses." ~ Adolf Hitler

"Why nationalize industry when you can nationalize the people?" ~ Adolf Hitler
 
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DayIFly

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It sure sounds like something he would say...
It doesn't matter, it's fake... A lot of such quotes are fake, that's why they don't have proper citations, so gullible people can parrot it.
 

NovaAria

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It sure sounds like something he would say...

"The greater the crime perpetrated by the leadership, the less likely it is that the people will ever believe their leaders to be capable of perpetrating such an event." ~ Adolf Hitler

"It is a quite special secret pleasure how the people around us fail to realize what is really happening to them." ~ Adolf Hitler

"Let me control the textbooks, and I will control the state." ~ Adolf Hitler

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." ~ Adolf Hitler

"Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death." ~ Adolf Hitler

"The receptivity of the masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous. In consequence of these facts, all effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these in slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand by your slogan." ~ Adolf Hitler

"It is not truth that matters, but victory." ~ Adolf Hitler

"By means of shrewd lies, unremittingly repeated, it is possible to make people believe that heaven is hell - and hell heaven. The greater the lie, the more readily it will be believed." ~ Adolf Hitler

"To whom should propaganda be addressed? To the scientifically trained intelligentsia or the less educated masses? It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses." ~ Adolf Hitler

"Why nationalize industry when you can nationalize the people?" ~ Adolf Hitler
Replace the name with any current politician and it would still work, honestly.
 

Vigilante

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Not going to name names, but one of our resident experts (not a doctor) repetitively cited this source and other modeling that drew their data from it in promoting his own expertise, and openly mocked those skeptics of this data. Now, it turns out, those ignorant conspiracy theorists here at the forum, including Ravioli, were 100% right and our resident experts were 99% wrong.

The ONLY upside is that sanity triumphs in the long run. Now we just need to figure out how to remedy the damage the "experts" did.

https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/m...GQu8wDlG4OD0iAXmVC7ESIdn7JwYBd5FHU1F4Y5659aVM
 

WillHurtDontCare

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I am going to call it for @Rivoli. He was right all along and I’m about to put this thread on mute.
It has been fun, but I’m probably going to die an early death of rage sourced heart disease if I keep this up.

I might have to go sailboat shopping just to equal me out.


Coronavirus. Is. A....




NOTHINGBURGER

@Kak what I'm about to say is about the idea of the coronavirus being a nothingburger rather than a personal response.

Asking whether the coronavirus was a nothingburger implies that the consequences of the last 2-3 months were just a temporary hiccup and that we'll go back to the way things were.

The coronavirus had massive impact and we're just getting started. And whatever "normal" looks like in the coming months / years, it will be different than whatever "normal" used to be.

Regardless of the health impact of this virus, the coronavirus was an event that shook the entire planet. It was a giant wrench thrown into the global idea of "business as usual." We're only beginning to see the consequences of the decisions made in response to the coronavirus.

I haven't organized these ideas into a coherent worldview yet, but here are some key things to pay attention to.
I'll develop this thesis more as become able to do so, but the key idea is that the future will be different, and that this event wasn't just a 3 month hiccup in regular life.
 
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ChrisV

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Not going to name names, but one of our resident experts (not a doctor) repetitively cited this source and other modeling that drew their data from it in promoting his own expertise, and openly mocked those skeptics of this data. Now, it turns out, those ignorant conspiracy theorists here at the forum, including Ravioli, were 100% right and our resident experts were 99% wrong.

The ONLY upside is that sanity triumphs in the long run. Now we just need to figure out how to remedy the damage the "experts" did.

https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/m...GQu8wDlG4OD0iAXmVC7ESIdn7JwYBd5FHU1F4Y5659aVM
You completely and utterly missed the point of everything I said. I'm already regretting re-following this thread.

I am not stating whether the model was wrong or right. We already know that the models were likely problematic as they used flawed data - which was the best we had at the time. I'm not saying they were wrong or right. I'm saying YOU CAN NOT USE THE CURRENT DEATH TOLL AS EVIDENCE OF THE MODELS ACCURACY.

PERIOD, END OF STORY.


It doesn't matter if the model was complete shit and was the worst prediction in humanity. Even if not one goddamn person died, you still can not use the actual deaths as evidence of that. Period. This is not up for debate.

The rules of logic are not a soft science. They are a hard discipline like Math or Physics. You can not make up your own math. You can not make up your own physics. And you can not make up your own logic rules.

1589829381766.png

Actually if you want to know the truth, Neil Furgussons model was pretty goddamn accurate. I've actually read these entire papers.

Neil Ferguson predicted 26,000 - 48,000 deaths in the rightmost column (Case Isolation, Home Quarentine, Social Distancing, Public School Closure labeled PC_CI_HQ_SD Column) how many actual UK deaths were there? 34,796. He predicted ~500K UK deaths if we did nothing - the "Do nothing" column



33027
Predicted deaths with Social Distancing measures? 26K-48K.
Actual deaths with social distancing measures? 34K

Predicted deaths without Social Distancing measures? 500K
Actual deaths without social distancing measures? WE DON'T KNOW BECASUE THE UK WENT ON LOCKDOWN.

But regardless, there's a possibility of Neil Ferguson's model being a fluke because at @GIlman noted they under-calculated the amount of asymptomatic cases in the calculations. Time will tell how much of a difference that made, but for now I'm not guessing.

Regardless you can not use the social distancing column as evidence that the "do nothing" column was wrong. Even if it does turn out to be wrong, you can not use the actual numbers as evidence of that. It's a logical non-sequitur. It.... does... not.... follow. It is a formal fallacy.

In other words, even if you are right your conclusion of the 'models being wrong' are just as much of a fluke as Rivoli's. It relies on a logical impossibility to come to the conclusion therefor even if you come to the correct conclusion it's an accident. It's like if you were doing a math problem, it doesn't matter if you got the right answer if your way of solving the problem was wrong. It's just a fluke.

How many times am I going to have to say the same exact thing?

@lowtek can you please comment on this? Maybe I'm just not explaining this in the right way.
 

David Harrison

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I've been following world events for the past thirty years based on various "readings".

Note: "readings" are different policies written down (for all to see), emanating from major political bodies around the world.

During these years the plans have been implemented at varying degrees. And I've witnessed the narrative accompanying these "acts".
What most people fail to acknowledge is the long term perspective. And in doing so, become embroiled in the "myopic" debates I witness on this thread.

There's a good film called "now you see me", and it shows precisely what I'm talking about in a little card trick:

"When Lionel was young, he asked a man to sign a card for a trick. Lionel then places the signed card inside a hollowed-out part of a tree. The tree grows around the card. Twenty years later, Lionel asks the same man to sign a card. Lionel then saws the old tree in half to reveal the card from twenty years ago".

Please don't argue with one another; it's at times like these we 'd be wise to learn to work together. And I'm "deadly" serious.
Time to put our ego's to bed...
 

Thoelt53

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You completely and utterly missed the point of everything I said. I'm already regretting re-following this thread.

I am not stating whether the model was wrong or right. We already know that the models were likely problematic as they used flawed data - which was the best we had at the time. I'm not saying they were wrong or right. I'm saying YOU CAN NOT USE THE CURRENT DEATH TOLL AS EVIDENCE OF THE MODELS ACCURACY.

PERIOD, END OF STORY.


It doesn't matter if the model was complete shit and was the worst prediction in humanity. Even if not one goddamn person died, you still can not use the actual deaths as evidence of that. Period. This is not up for debate.

The rules of logic are not a soft science. They are a hard discipline like Math or Physics. You can not make up your own math. You can not make up your own physics. And you can not make up your own logic rules.

View attachment 33029

Actually if you want to know the truth, Neil Furgussons model was pretty goddamn accurate. I've actually read these entire papers.

Neil Ferguson predicted 26,000 - 48,000 deaths in the rightmost column (Case Isolation, Home Quarentine, Social Distancing, Public School Closure labeled PC_CI_HQ_SD Column) how many actual UK deaths were there? 34,796. He predicted ~500K UK deaths if we did nothing - the "Do nothing" column



View attachment 33027
Predicted deaths with Social Distancing measures? 26K-48K.
Actual deaths with social distancing measures? 34K

Predicted deaths without Social Distancing measures? 500K
Actual deaths without social distancing measures? WE DON'T KNOW BECASUE THE UK WENT ON LOCKDOWN.

But regardless, there's a possibility of Neil Ferguson's model being a fluke because at @GIlman noted they under-calculated the amount of asymptomatic cases in the calculations. Time will tell how much of a difference that made, but for now I'm not guessing.

Regardless you can not use the social distancing column as evidence that the "do nothing" column was wrong. Even if it does turn out to be wrong, you can not use the actual numbers as evidence of that. It's a logical non-sequitur. It.... does... not.... follow. It is a formal fallacy.

In other words, even if you are right your conclusion of the 'models being wrong' are just as much of a fluke as Rivoli's. It relies on a logical impossibility to come to the conclusion therefor even if you come to the correct conclusion it's an accident. It's like if you were doing a math problem, it doesn't matter if you got the right answer if your way of solving the problem was wrong. It's just a fluke.

How many times am I going to have to say the same exact thing?

@lowtek can you please comment on this? Maybe I'm just not explaining this in the right way.
You didn’t read the link.
 
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NovaAria

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@Kak what I'm about to say is about the idea of the coronavirus being a nothingburger rather than a personal response.

Asking whether the coronavirus was a nothingburger implies that the consequences of the last 2-3 months were just a temporary hiccup and that we'll go back to the way things were.

The coronavirus had massive impact and we're just getting started. And whatever "normal" looks like in the coming months / years, it will be different than whatever "normal" used to be.

Regardless of the health impact of this virus, the coronavirus was an event that shook the entire planet. It was a giant wrench thrown into the global idea of "business as usual." We're only beginning to see the consequences of the decisions made in response to the coronavirus.

I haven't organized these ideas into a coherent worldview yet, but here are some key things to pay attention to.
I'll develop this thesis more as become able to do so, but the key idea is that the future will be different, and that this event wasn't just a 3 month hiccup in regular life.

The problem isn't what the virus did, it's how policy makers handled it.
If airports were closed from the very beginning, and entrants had to get PCR tests or spend 14 days in quarantine, tourism would have suffered. But the rest of the country wouldn't have had to. A controlled burn when a country had only a handful of cases would have given us all herd immunity by now.
The problem is that people saw the news and what was happening in China and said "Eh, won't reach us." But when it did reach us, they looked at what the neighbor did and copied his homework, even though the neighbor was doing math and we were having poetry.

Mind you, from the very beginning, I was in Team Lockdown. The problem now is that the lockdown has come and should have left ages ago. Governments all over the world are being reactive instead of proactive. Waiting for cases to spike then locking down everything, even where it doesnt make sense. Now every economy is suffering and everyone is opening up again. Did they change anything? Did they learn a thing? Will they start planning and thinking 1 year or at least 3 months ahead? I am willing to bet that they will not.

So, ultimately, the world is changing but not because of the virus. The virus was mishandled, and some saw an opportunity to powergrab and took it. But I expected absolutely nothing less from the professional vultures we call politicians.
 

Thoelt53

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The problem isn't what the virus did, it's how policy makers handled it.
If airports were closed from the very beginning, and entrants had to get PCR tests or spend 14 days in quarantine, tourism would have suffered. But the rest of the country wouldn't have had to. A controlled burn when a country had only a handful of cases would have given us all herd immunity by now.
The problem is that people saw the news and what was happening in China and said "Eh, won't reach us." But when it did reach us, they looked at what the neighbor did and copied his homework, even though the neighbor was doing math and we were having poetry.

Mind you, from the very beginning, I was in Team Lockdown. The problem now is that the lockdown has come and should have left ages ago. Governments all over the world are being reactive instead of proactive. Waiting for cases to spike then locking down everything, even where it doesnt make sense. Now every economy is suffering and everyone is opening up again. Did they change anything? Did they learn a thing? Will they start planning and thinking 1 year or at least 3 months ahead? I am willing to bet that they will not.

So, ultimately, the world is changing but not because of the virus. The virus was mishandled, and some saw an opportunity to powergrab and took it. But I expected absolutely nothing less from the professional vultures we call politicians.
Was the virus actually mishandled? “Mishandled” implies accidental. At this point it would seem more deliberate.

Governors of the seven most affected states (accounting for more than 50% of US COVID deaths) forced long term care facilities to accept recovering COVID patients.

Where is the logic in that? To free up hospital beds? At the expense of the elderly?

Experts said from the very beginning that we needed to protect the elderly. Nursing homes needed to be restricted. Yet our governors sent sick people to recover in them. Meanwhile they closed schools to “prevent the spread.”

This whole situation was deliberately “mishandled.” Make of that what you will, but the reality is that we are living under decree ordered by governors under direction of the CDC and Dr. Fauci‘s NIAID.

This began as an effort to flatten the curve, quickly turning into a ‘new normal’ where we cannot resume normal life until a vaccine is administered to 7.8 billion people.

It’s total bullshit.

Government found an opportunity to exploit. The dipshit majority that can’t think for itself fell for it hook, line and sinker.
 

ChrisV

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You didn’t read the link.
I was responding to the comment. And I skimmed the link. I take info from sources like “lowderwithcrowder.com” with a grain of salt (a tablespoon, rather.)
 
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Thoelt53

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