The Worldwide C0VlD-19 Coronavirus Pandemic Discussion Thread...

[RazorCut]

@RazorCut as the saying goes, hindsight is 20/20. And we're still a long way from having any real hindsight on this virus. We're all trying to make the best decisions we can based on the information available at the time. As we learn something new, we adjust - at least that is what intelligent people do.

That's not hindsight though. That's common sense. The UK and USA were not pioneers. There was plenty of prior evidence around to have made pivotal decisions well beforehand. The problem is pretty much everyone in power was more concerned with the short term economic consequences.

After these major disasters there is always an inquiry to see how things could have better been handled. We learn from them but rarely do follow through years later when complacency causes us to fall back into the old ways and stand with our hands in our pockets for way too long.

 

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[Timmy C]

That's not hindsight though. That's common sense. The UK and USA were not pioneers. There was plenty of prior evidence around to have made pivotal decisions well beforehand. The problem is pretty much everyone in power was more concerned with the short term economic consequences.

After these major disasters there is always an inquiry to see how things could have better been handled. We learn from them but rarely do follow through years later when complacency causes us to fall back into the old ways and stand with our hands in our pockets for way too long.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

But we are going into politics again, and I don't want to call trump a moron again, but I just did....

Ok I'll shut up now.

 

[Thoelt53]

For F*cks sake people, stop blaming the administration and the government as a whole.

The government is not responsible for any of us. We are responsible for ourselves.

That said, the US ranked best prepared for a pandemic. We the people should have filled the gaps instead of waiting for someone else to do it for us.

But it’s easier to blame the government than to take personal responsibility. That goes for everyone, myself included. When this is all through with I know for certain I won’t be relying on anyone but myself when the next pandemic hits.

Here's the Johns Hopkins study President Trump referenced in his coronavirus news conference

The Global Health Security Index, issued in October by the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, assessed 195 countries on their readiness to deal with the threat of an epidemic or pandemic. Overall, the results were not encouraging.

hub.jhu.edu

What we’re seeing in this thread, and in the world, is an ideological disagreement between individualism and collectivism. Unfortunately that problem has extremely deep roots and won’t be corrected any time soon.

 

[RazorCut]

For F*cks sake people, stop blaming the administration and the government as a whole.

The government is not responsible for any of us. We are responsible for ourselves.

I beg to differ. The Government are paid to protect the interests of its people. They are elected to do that and have been from the days of the tribe onwards. To say that only we are responsible for ourselves in not only shortsighted it is tantamount to declaring anarchy. It your government were not responsible for your well-being there would be no armed forces to protect you. No laws to stop your fellow man killing you without fear of repercussions. No protection to stop businesses feeding you poison and calling it food. No education system to teach your children. You would live in fear of your life every day and never go anywhere without constantly looking over your shoulder whilst always carrying a gun in your hand.

 

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[Kak]

10 MILLION Americans are now unemployed.

Dow slides 360 points, capping volatile week as US reports job losses in March

U.S. stocks fell Friday after job gains came to a sudden halt in March as a result of layoffs and a hiring slowdown from coronavirus pandemic.

www.usatoday.com

6099 Americans have died.

For every one person that has died. We have 1640 out of work.

For every 30 Americans that have died from Coronavirus, you could fill a football stadium with unemployment applicants.

 

[Trevor Kuntz]

Wow, very impressive!!! My mind is just exploding with new ideas!!!

 

[Thoelt53]

I beg to differ. The Government are paid to protect the interests of its people. They are elected to do that and have been from the days of the tribe onwards. To say that only we are responsible for ourselves in not only shortsighted it is tantamount to declaring anarchy. It your government were not responsible for your well-being there would be no armed forces to protect you. No laws to stop your fellow man killing you without fear of repercussions. No protection to stop businesses feeding you poison and calling it food. No education system to teach your children. You would live in fear of your life every day and never go anywhere without constantly looking over your shoulder whilst always carrying a gun in your hand.

We simply don’t share schools of thought my friend.

We don’t pay governments, governments take (steal) money in the form of taxes. If we were paying government I could elect to keep my money, just as I can choose to not pay my cable bill. The cable company cannot force me to pay them.

That is very beginning of where our beliefs will differ, collectivism vs individualism, and with that being said we won’t agree on much about the topic, if anything at all.

 

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[RazorCut]

That is very beginning of where our beliefs will differ, collectivism vs individualism, and with that being said we won’t agree on much about the topic, if anything at all.

I'm not so sure. The world is not that black and white my friend. But Atlas Shrugged is certainly not the answer.

 

[Rivoli]

But in the meantime, he's allowed to walk around, knowingly spreading a highly contagious disease? This is silly. Do we let people walk around a school naked? Do we let people walk around cursing at strangers? Do we let people walk around spitting on people? The people in this idiot's vicinity have rights, too, and this jackass is infringing on them.

As a society, we restrict behavior all the time in line with our norms, customs, and public safety. For example, the naked guy has due process, too. Okay, fine, arrest him or whatever. But he isn't allowed to walk around naked while his court case is pending.

You would love living in China!

 

[Rivoli]

10 MILLION Americans are now unemployed.

Dow slides 360 points, capping volatile week as US reports job losses in March

U.S. stocks fell Friday after job gains came to a sudden halt in March as a result of layoffs and a hiring slowdown from coronavirus pandemic.

www.usatoday.com

6099 Americans have died.

For every one person that has died. We have 1640 out of work.

For every 30 Americans that have died from Coronavirus, you could fill a football stadium with unemployment applicants.

America at its last peak (1950’s) would have never shut down the country for a flu.

 

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[Kak]

On a lighter note... Today is my 4th year wedding aniversary...

The plan, amidst this coronavirus shit show, is to give my wife an anniversary she can remember.

This evening it is take out from the restaurant where we first met. I have a card table, two chairs, table cloth and a candle. We will be eating in the empty parking lot. Next to my old suburban because this crap won't fit in the Mercedes.

I can't remember what we did last year... But we won't forget this one.

 

[ChrisV]

US unemployment rises to 4.4% in March amid coronavirus

That was the worst job loss since March 2009 during the depths of the global financial crisis, and the biggest single-month jump in the jobless rate in more than 45 years, the report said.

www.hindustantimes.com

Commandment of control strikes again.

 

[ChickenHawk]

You would love living in China!

Medical quarantines have been part of Western Civilization for hundreds, possibly thousands of years. The only reason they seem "foreign" to us now is because this is the first time we're living through one personally.

 

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[ChrisV]

America at its last peak (1950’s) would have never shut down the country for a flu.

Lmao wait.. the 1950's were the peak of what exactly?

I genuinely hope you don't think that the United States was wealthier in 1950 than it is in 2020.

I'm actually scared to hear this answer.

 

[ChrisV]

Medical quarantines have been part of Western Civilization for hundreds, possibly thousands of years. The only reason they seem "foreign" to us now is because this is the first time we're living through one personally.

A case from 1907:

Mary Mallon (September 23, 1869 – November 11, 1938), also known as Typhoid Mary, was an Irish-born cook believed to have infected 51 people, three of whom died, with typhoid fever, and the first person in the United States identified as an asymptomatic carrier of the disease. Because she persisted in working as a cook, by which she exposed others to the disease, she was twice forcibly isolated by authorities, and died after a total of nearly three decades in isolation.

Mary Mallon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kak]

On a lighter note... Today is my 4th year wedding aniversary...

The plan, amidst this coronavirus shit show, is to give my wife an anniversary she can remember.

This evening it is take out from the restaurant where we first met. I have a card table, two chairs, table cloth and a candle. We will be eating in the empty parking lot. Next to my old suburban because this crap won't fit in the Mercedes.

I can't remember what we did last year... But we won't forget this one.

The black rectangle strikes again.

I gave them a call about their take-out hours. I have removed the name of the place because the last thing I want to do is get them in any kind of trouble... Which sucks, because they deserve high praise not shaming from assholes.

I explained that it is our anniversary and not only did we meet there, but we also got engaged there. I asked if we could eat our take out order at one of their patio tables in the back near the lake. Not only did he say that is just fine, he is going to put down the table cloth and give us 50% off of a bottle of wine.

Private dining, courtesy of coronavirus. Just like the forum dinner with Glen Stearns. You have not because you ask not.

 

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[Sethamus]

I'm curious if the people who are for government controlled quarantine for covid19 would be behind a very similar occurrence during WWII.
japanese-relocation
The last line of a quote from former Supreme Court Justice "racial discrimination of this nature bears no reasonable relation to military necessity and is utterly foreign to the ideals and traditions of the American people. "

Replace racial with whatever you would like to call this episode. The more rights we lose the less American America becomes.

 

[MTF]

Italy: the real number of C0VlD-19 cases in the country could be 5,000,0000 (compared to the 119,827 confirmed ones) according to a study which polled people with symptoms who have not been tested, and up to 10,000,000 or even 20,0000,000 after taking into account asymptomatic cases, according to Carlo La Vecchia, a Professor of Medical Statistics and Epidemiology at the Statale di Milano University.

This number would still be insufficient to reach herd immunity, which would require 2/3 of the population (about 40,000,000 people in Italy) having contracted the virus [source].

The number of deaths could also be underestimated by 3/4 (in Italy as well as in other countries) [source], meaning that the real number of deaths in Italy could be around 60,000.

If these estimates were true, the mortality rate from C0VlD-19 would be much lower (around 25 times less) than the case fatality rate based solely on laboratory-confirmed cases and deaths, since it would be underestimating cases (the denominator) by a factor of about 1/100 and deaths by a factor of 1/4.

source: Italy Coronavirus: 119,827 Cases and 14,681 Deaths - Worldometer

 

[QDF]

Italy: the real number of C0VlD-19 cases in the country could be 5,000,0000 (compared to the 119,827 confirmed ones) according to a study which polled people with symptoms who have not been tested, and up to 10,000,000 or even 20,0000,000 after taking into account asymptomatic cases, according to Carlo La Vecchia, a Professor of Medical Statistics and Epidemiology at the Statale di Milano University.

This number would still be insufficient to reach herd immunity, which would require 2/3 of the population (about 40,000,000 people in Italy) having contracted the virus [source].

The number of deaths could also be underestimated by 3/4 (in Italy as well as in other countries) [source], meaning that the real number of deaths in Italy could be around 60,000.

If these estimates were true, the mortality rate from C0VlD-19 would be much lower (around 25 times less) than the case fatality rate based solely on laboratory-confirmed cases and deaths, since it would be underestimating cases (the denominator) by a factor of about 1/100 and deaths by a factor of 1/4.

source: Italy Coronavirus: 119,827 Cases and 14,681 Deaths - Worldometer

I don't want to speak for Vigilante, but I think this may have been the point he was trying to make earlier -- that it is much more contagious and more wide-spread than previously thought. If this is the case, the mortality rate would be much lower than 1% and herd immunity (at least at some level) would be achieved sooner than expected as a result.

This isn't to say that it still wouldn't cause a complete collapse of the medical system if we let it burn uncontrolled through society, or that we should do that.

As testing in the US becomes more widespread in the months to come, a lot of evidence should be coming out to further prove this one way or the other. For now, it doesn't really change how we approach it much.

 

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[GIlman]

I don't think that the guys who were confirmed to be infected, yet continued walking around the streets as if nothing happened were carrying signs saying "I have Corona Virus".

They KNEW that they were carriers, and they didn't give a damn about how many others they could infect. Isn't that an irresponsible behavior?

with other illnesses knowingly placIng someone at risk can result in liability. For instance having HIV or herpes and not notifying a partner can result in big settlement lawsuits. Although the 1:1 link as compared to std’s. Infecting someone with HIV

You might be surprised by my response to this... But you shouldn’t be. I have consistently supported freedoms and individual liberty for 11 years on this forum. I believe what I preach. We will 100% certainly disagree, hopefully respectfully. Keep in mind the lynchmob is on your side so my opinions don’t really matter. You will get your way.

Here goes: I don’t want to lock someone up, arrest someone, throw tracking devices on their ankles or imprison anyone for “walking around” in public. I don’t think he should be locked in his home like a convicted criminal. This is NOT OK WITH ME.

By leaving our homes we, the healthy, are taking calculated risk. We obviously know this. Chances are there are 5 more infected, yet undocumented, cases in that same grocery store.

This is all made more interesting by the likelihood that most of us will get this. So this guy, Bob, gets basically imprisoned by the government to put off the inevitable when the rest of us get this?

Now when he/she is purposely coughing on or spitting on people we have an assault problem and a completely different scenario.

@Kak, this is not meant to be an attack at all, just genuinely curious the limits of your reasoning on this. I am very hands off from the government in general, and have great concerns about the power grab that certainly is happening now.

What are your proposed limits of the government?

What about tuberculosis, another highly contagious terrible disease to have. We have been quarantining people for centuries for this illness, and do to this day. Is it ok for people with Tuberculosis to just freely go out into public, knowing that hundreds and or thousands of people will suffer downstream from this person. If they are put into quarantine but break it, we know that it will have a huge human and economic impact.

What about drunken driving, this is another case of someone though careless regard for the safety of others poses an eminent and mortal threat the the safety and security of others. Why do we pull people over driving drunk? It’s it their right to drive drunk? Just because you can quantify who and what are damaged in drunk driving, does that change anything?

This is the point, they are knowingly placing others at risk. There are an enormous # of laws and regulations to prevent others from knowingly exposing you to risk. Do you think any regulation or law that limits someone’s ability to knowingly place others in substantial risk, which could be easily avoided, should be abandoned?

Thanks for your replies, it’s interesting to unpack how people think, helps to relate to others.

 

[Ved Vardhan]

Some Good news !! may be we are near to finding a vaccine . Finger crossed !!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTCCqWzkr48

 

[WillHurtDontCare]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1245292019318210560

View: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1245292019318210560?s=20

 

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[Sethamus]

with other illnesses knowingly placIng someone at risk can result in liability. For instance having HIV or herpes and not notifying a partner can result in big settlement lawsuits. Although the 1:1 link as compared to std’s. Infecting someone with HIV


@Kak, this is not meant to be an attack at all, just genuinely curious the limits of your reasoning on this. I am very hands off from the government in general, and have great concerns about the power grab that certainly is happening now.

What are your proposed limits of the government?

What about tuberculosis, another highly contagious terrible disease to have. We have been quarantining people for centuries for this illness, and do to this day. Is it ok for people with Tuberculosis to just freely go out into public, knowing that hundreds and or thousands of people will suffer downstream from this person. If they are put into quarantine but break it, we know that it will have a huge human and economic impact.

What about drunken driving, this is another case of someone though careless regard for the safety of others poses an eminent and mortal threat the the safety and security of others. Why do we pull people over driving drunk? It’s it their right to drive drunk? Just because you can quantify who and what are damaged in drunk driving, does that change anything?

This is the point, they are knowingly placing others at risk. There are an enormous # of laws and regulations to prevent others from knowingly exposing you to risk. Do you think any regulation or law that limits someone’s ability to knowingly place others in substantial risk, which could be easily avoided, should be abandoned?

Thanks for your replies, it’s interesting to unpack how people think, helps to relate to others.

I think his argument was that anyone currently out in public today is aware of the risk of getting it from everyone else who is in public. If you do not want to catch it, then you practice social distance and keep yourself quarantined. Your argument of drunk driving doesn't compare at all. You are able to drink in public, you are able to freely go from state to state per federal law as long as you have passed a driver's education. However, when you drink and drive you put others UNKNOWINGLY at risk of harm. That is the difference. If I am driving I cannot know the risk of you being drunk on the same road. If I go out to hang with a group of friends this afternoon I am fully aware of the risk and so does everyone else.

 

[GIlman]

I think his argument was that anyone currently out in public today is aware of the risk of getting it from everyone else who is in public. If you do not want to catch it, then you practice social distance and keep yourself quarantined. Your argument of drunk driving doesn't compare at all. You are able to drink in public, you are able to freely go from state to state per federal law as long as you have passed a driver's education. However, when you drink and drive you put others UNKNOWINGLY at risk of harm. That is the difference. If I am driving I cannot know the risk of you being drunk on the same road. If I go out to hang with a group of friends this afternoon I am fully aware of the risk and so does everyone else.

But if you know your status, and someone else does not, then for all intents and purpose they are unknowingly being put at risk by that person. The infected person knows that they are putting the uninfected at risk.

What about someone with HIV, is it ok for them to have sex with someone and not tell them? If protected? What about unprotected? Everyone having sex knows the risk. Does an HIV positive person have any responsibility to others from contracting the illness?

I know drunk drivers are on the road, I know there is a risk of being hit by a drunk driver, but that is not used as justification for drunk drivers being prosecuted. It’s illegal to drive drunk because the driver, having knowledge of their impaired state, are responsible to act in a way so as not to put others in eminent danger. I don’t see any difference between drunk driving and CV on a fundamental level.

that is what negligence is. Causing harm to another when there is knowledge you could cause harm and did not act in a reasonable way to prevent that harm

 

[ChrisV]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1245292019318210560

View: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1245292019318210560?s=20

I like his point. I don't know if 'any' startup is likely to succeed, but what is clear is there's a shit ton of opportunity out there. Any time the market changes, or there's a need to fill there's opportunity.

Trust me, there are many needs to fill right now.

As entrepreneurs we should be ready to pivot at any moment. People see mass unemployment? I see mass opportunities everywhere. Opportunities for delivery services. Opportunities to sell the things that Amazon is taking 30 days to ship.

People see the stock market crashing? I see Blue Chip stocks 70% off. These stocks that are down? You know damn well they’re gonna go back up. Warren Buffet / Berkshire Hathaway did the exact same thing (bought stocks when the market crashed after COVID panic) and made enough money to buy the McDonalds corporation in three days.

All he does is wait for the market to panic and gobble up all those stocks that are basically guaranteed to go back up. He follows the exact technique listed in The Intelligent Investor.

Jobs don’t get lost, they just move to new sectors. Now is the perfect opportunity to create those new sectors.

Strippers staff ‘Boober Eats’ delivery service during coronavirus lockdown

Human's still have the same wants and desires they had 2 months ago. Human biology hasn't fundamentally changed.

 

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[Thoelt53]

with other illnesses knowingly placIng someone at risk can result in liability. For instance having HIV or herpes and not notifying a partner can result in big settlement lawsuits. Although the 1:1 link as compared to std’s. Infecting someone with HIV


@Kak, this is not meant to be an attack at all, just genuinely curious the limits of your reasoning on this. I am very hands off from the government in general, and have great concerns about the power grab that certainly is happening now.

What are your proposed limits of the government?

What about tuberculosis, another highly contagious terrible disease to have. We have been quarantining people for centuries for this illness, and do to this day. Is it ok for people with Tuberculosis to just freely go out into public, knowing that hundreds and or thousands of people will suffer downstream from this person. If they are put into quarantine but break it, we know that it will have a huge human and economic impact.

What about drunken driving, this is another case of someone though careless regard for the safety of others poses an eminent and mortal threat the the safety and security of others. Why do we pull people over driving drunk? It’s it their right to drive drunk? Just because you can quantify who and what are damaged in drunk driving, does that change anything?

This is the point, they are knowingly placing others at risk. There are an enormous # of laws and regulations to prevent others from knowingly exposing you to risk. Do you think any regulation or law that limits someone’s ability to knowingly place others in substantial risk, which could be easily avoided, should be abandoned?

Thanks for your replies, it’s interesting to unpack how people think, helps to relate to others.

I won’t answer for @Kak, however we share some beliefs so I’ll put in my own bit.

There is legal precedent in this country that requires due process to isolate a person with TB, see Greene v. Edwards.

I don’t think anyone here is saying that the government cannot, under any circumstance, isolate someone with an infectious disease. However, in order to do so, the government must provide due process.

DUI is a crime, and due process also applies to drunk drivers. The government cannot detain you after purchasing alcohol because of the potential risk that you may drink and drive. It is not until you are caught committing the crime of DUI that you will be arrested, charged, appearance in court, so on and so forth.

 

[Sethamus]

But if you know your status, and someone else does not, then for all intents and purpose they are unknowingly being put at risk by that person. The infected person knows that they are putting the uninfected at risk.

What about someone with HIV, is it ok for them to have sex with someone and not tell them? If protected? What about unprotected? Everyone having sex knows the risk. Does an HIV positive person have any responsibility to others from contracting the illness?

I know drunk drivers are on the road, I know there is a risk of being hit by a drunk driver, but that is not used as justification for drunk drivers being prosecuted. It’s illegal to drive drunk because the driver, having knowledge of their impaired state, are responsible to act in a way so as not to put others in eminent danger. I don’t see any difference between drunk driving and CV on a fundamental level.

that is what negligence is. Causing harm to another when there is knowledge you could cause harm and did not act in a reasonable way to prevent that harm

Why do people with other STds not get prosecuted, or some states not have laws preventing this?(this is state mandated not federal).

I would argue consent and intent to harm. If I go in public I still know that I am likely to talk to someone that has the virus and it is easily spread. If the person has no intent on giving it to me then they cannot be charged and I consent to the risk by being there. For HIV, the person knowingly has it and is knowingly doing an act that can transmit it(unprotected sex without telling partner). If someone knowingly has HIV and accidentally gives it to someone other than sex, than they cannot be charged. Are you going to lock up everyone with HIV as well? A cut on their finger puts me in danger, or a medic that has to help them in am accident. In your thinking they should be locked up and only allowed in other HIV communities, as going out in public would put people in danger in a multitude of ways with their knowledge of harm.

I think it all comes down to how likely you are to cause permanent harm to others. Curable std- charged with reckless endangerment, HIV - possibly charged with capital murder depending on circumstance.

 

[GIlman]

I think it all comes down to how likely you are to cause permanent harm to others. Curable std- charged with reckless endangerment, HIV - possibly charged with capital murder depending on circumstance.

based on this quote alone, that is rationale for people quarantining with CV.

The difference with HIV is the exposure risk is negligible except though sexual interactions or in a medical or similar setting. But the principle is exactly the same.

What about tuberculosis then? Is it because it is less common that it is now fair to quarantine these people. This also is a highly communicable disease spread easily in the air alone. Do you want people with tuberculosis running around in public infecting 1000’s causing unlimited human suffering and financial harm?

or are you assuming that everyone will get this anyway, an unfounded assumption at this moment in history, but still a valid assumption. What is the rationale, because to me it seems to be a tough argument to make that someone with a highly contagious significantly lethal condition should be free to knowingly expose people to the illness.

one more thought experiment. If someone goes out in public with CV, knowingly exposing people to their air and significantly risking them. If that is ok, should it also be ok for people with CV to lick the handrails and elevator buttons in YOUR apartment or workplace. In both instances they knowingly and purposefully doing activities that put people at risk. There is fundamentally no difference, both create the same risk of harm, which they knowingly do.

 

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[Sethamus]

based on this quote alone, that is rationale for people quarantining with CV.

The difference with HIV is the exposure risk is negligible except though sexual interactions or in a medical or similar setting. But the principle is exactly the same.

What about tuberculosis then? Is it because it is less common that it is now fair to quarantine these people. This also is a highly communicable disease spread easily in the air alone. Do you want people with tuberculosis running around in public infecting 1000’s causing unlimited human suffering and financial harm?

or are you assuming that everyone will get this anyway, an unfounded assumption at this moment in history, but still a valid assumption. What is the rationale, because to me it seems to be a tough argument to make that someone with a highly contagious significantly lethal condition should be free to knowingly expose people to the illness.

one more thought experiment. If someone goes out in public with CV, knowingly exposing people to their air and significantly risking them. If that is ok, should it also be ok for people with CV to lick the handrails and elevator buttons in YOUR apartment or workplace. In both instances they knowingly and purposefully doing activities that put people at risk. There is fundamentally no difference, both create the same risk of harm, which they knowingly do.

So I don't feel like going around and around on the same subject when neither mind is going to change. So this will be my last post.

 

[ChrisV]

Why do people with other STds not get prosecuted, or some states not have laws preventing this?(this is state mandated not federal).

THEY DO GET PROSECUTED.

Criminal transmission of HIV - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Criminalisation of HIV Non-Disclosure

I'm sorry... i have to back out of this thread for a while. I literally have friends who have family members in the ICU due to this and we're talking about this all this dumb shit like guys right to knowingly spread a deadly disease (criminal negligence.)







If you're not in NY, you'll fully understand all this in a few weeks; because you're next.