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The Worldwide C0VlD-19 Coronavirus Pandemic Discussion Thread...

Jon L

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Some of you guys.... wow.

This is how tyranny is rolled out: with the pleading of people who are scared of their own shadow.
Its not, though. Hitler came to power only after a very long re-education effort. He brainwashed an entire generation.

The current cultural climate of the US is not one where anything close to that would happen. We have way too much of a Don't Mess with Texas attitude for that to work. Give us 20 years of grinding poverty though? That would soften us up a bit.

Beyond that, none of us are suggesting that we do this across the board. This ankle monitor made the news because its newsworthy - in other words, its far outside the norm of what is going on here.
 
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ChickenHawk

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Some of you guys.... wow. This is how tyranny is rolled out: with the pleading of people who are scared of their own shadow.
I see what you're saying, but the real problem here is that we're not allowed to deal with this one-on-one or as a local community. In reality, if you know your neighbor has C0VlD-19, and you see them wandering around the maternity ward, you should be able to drag them out and beat them senseless, while wearing a HazMat suit, of course.

But as it stands now, that sort of thing will get you arrested. Thus, we turn to ankle monitors and what-not. Not an ideal solution, I agree. But there you have it.
 

lowtek

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This brings up a topic that I've been mulling over.

In Schenck v. United States, Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes made the famous statement, “The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic.”

Why? What's the big deal?

Because people could get killed in the resulting stampede.

Similarly, we don't give suicide bombers freedom to circulate in society with a loaded vest and backpack.

Neither do we protect the rights of an active shooter in a school, workplace, or shopping center.

If somebody was going around to hospital rooms and nursing homes and making people drink poison, there would be mass outrage.

In other words, the law has NEVER protected anyone who is going around killing people.

There's a lot of discussion around the fact that this lockdown is "taking away our rights."

But in this particular situation, we never had the right in the first place to go around killing people.

If you have the virus, YOU ARE a weapon. You circulate in society, and people could die.

So of course people with the virus should be quarantined.

If someone is like "I don't wanna," tough.

We wouldn't tolerate a school shooter who said, "I don't wanna stop killing people." They'd be taken down.

But here's where it gets really messy, and where the current policy feels super sketchy.

Let's set aside for a moment the people who KNOW they're positive and flaunt the quarantine because they're just selfish and inconsiderate like that. Hopefully that would be a minority of people, and hopefully that minority would be able to be dealt with.

What is FAR more concerning is that asymptomatic people are spreaders.
  • If I don't suspect that I might have the virus, why would I stop circulating in society?
  • Even if I suspect that I might have the virus, I cannot get tested unless I am bad enough to be hospitalized.
So nobody can know at this point who is infected. Nobody can know who it's safe to hang out with. Nobody can know where it is and isn't safe to go.

In a typical quarantine, the infected people would be isolated and separated from society.

In this case, that never happened.

Therefore, the only way for somebody like me to keep from getting infected is to quarantine MYSELF.

OK, up to this point, while it's regrettable that better quarantining and contact tracing wasn't carried out, it's all well and good if I choose to exercise my right to quarantine myself.

Where it gets really tricky, and where a lot of people are objecting (and where I admittedly haven't succeeded in sorting out my own thinking on the matter) is the fact that now it's not up to me or you to choose. EVERYONE is quarantined.

On one hand, it seems like, "duh. That's what they have to do to get this virus under control."

On the other hand, it legitimately looks like a massive overreach of power and control. And we're kidding ourselves if we think they're going to give it back when this is all over.

First of all, there is no comparison between a virus that kills a minute fraction of the healthy people it infects, and an active shooter.

Second, you absolutely have a right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater, provided there is actually a fire. It is not the speech that is restricted, but the act of causing a panic. It's interesting you bring this up, because it highlights the fact that inciting panic is considered a crime, yet that is precisely what some (not really the people on this forum) are doing. Whipping up a panic just to take away our liberties.

Third, If we're going to argue that (knowingly) going outside with a virus that can kill people is sufficient to get our liberty revoked without due process, then why not do that for the flu?

While it has a far lower CFR, this is a distinction of quantity, not of quality. At what point do we draw that line?
 

MoneyDoc

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First of all, there is no comparison between a virus that kills a minute fraction of the healthy people it infects, and an active shooter.

Second, you absolutely have a right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater, provided there is actually a fire. It is not the speech that is restricted, but the act of causing a panic. It's interesting you bring this up, because it highlights the fact that inciting panic is considered a crime, yet that is precisely what some (not really the people on this forum) are doing. Whipping up a panic just to take away our liberties.

Third, If we're going to argue that (knowingly) going outside with a virus that can kill people is sufficient to get our liberty revoked without due process, then why not do that for the flu?

While it has a far lower CFR, this is a distinction of quantity, not of quality. At what point do we draw that line?
Seems like one person gets me.
 
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Kak

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Some of you guys.... wow.

This is how tyranny is rolled out: with the pleading of people who are scared of their own shadow.

Yep.

Let me remind folks that they, as well as the vast majority of the world, are likely are going to get infected anyway despite all the tyrannical measures they can wet dream up.

This needs to happen because we can’t hide in our homes forever. We need recoveries not tyranny.

Thank you @lowtek and @Thoelt53 for standing up for liberty.
 

MTF

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To me the biggest difference between this and the Flu is that you don't know if you have it. That is the biggest unknown and it is scary for both people who are afraid of getting it and for people who are afraid of giving it to others.

Let's say MJ wanted to do a poker night. With the flu, if you come over and are coughing, sound horrible and sniffling, everyone at the table will say, get the f*ck out of here you can't play. But most likely, the person would have never gone to poker night in the first place because he knows that he is sick.

With C0VlD-19, everyone could be feeling fine, no signs of any sickness. We play poker for 4 hours and 2 weeks later we all have it. And worse is that we all brought it back home to people we live with and can be responsible for their death.

That is the unknown that will not go away until we get a vaccination. Many people will never ever take that chance. This is why this is different.

Not interested in the "it's not like the flu" discussion. Just wanted to point out that technically you may be able to pass on the flu to someone else before you know you are sick, as well as while you are sick.

From CDC:

People with flu are most contagious in the first three to four days after their illness begins. Most healthy adults may be able to infect others beginning 1 day before symptoms develop and up to 5 to 7 days after becoming sick. Children and some people with weakened immune systems may pass the virus for longer than 7 days.

Symptoms can begin about 2 days (but can range from 1 to 4 days) after the virus enters the body. That means that you may be able to pass on the flu to someone else before you know you are sick, as well as while you are sick. Some people can be infected with the flu virus but have no symptoms. During this time, those people may still spread the virus to others.

source: How Flu Spreads
 

ChrisV

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Quick thought experiment. HIV / AIDS has a transmission rate of only 2% (through vaginal intercourse.) Someone has HIV and still demands they have the right to have unprotected sex with whoever they want. They say it's their right to do what they want. They continue to have unprotected sex on a daily basis. Should the government have the right to restrain them?
 
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Jon L

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Yep.

Let me remind folks that they, as well as the vast majority of the world, are likely are going to get infected anyway despite all the tyrannical measures they can wet dream up.

This needs to happen because we can’t hide in our homes forever. We need recoveries not tyranny.

Thank you @lowtek and @Thoelt53 for standing up for liberty.
I've been trying to figure out why you think this way ... what is it that you believe that brings you to this conclusion. I believe its likely that we will prevent people from getting it if we quarantine for a bit longer, and then do massive testing afterwards. We'll keep the percent of the population that gets it to the single digits. That will save millions of lives in the US alone. Sounds like you don't think that's possible?
 

lowtek

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Its not, though. Hitler came to power only after a very long re-education effort. He brainwashed an entire generation.

The current cultural climate of the US is not one where anything close to that would happen. We have way too much of a Don't Mess with Texas attitude for that to work. Give us 20 years of grinding poverty though? That would soften us up a bit.

Beyond that, none of us are suggesting that we do this across the board. This ankle monitor made the news because its newsworthy - in other words, its far outside the norm of what is going on here.

I get that you're not arguing for it to be done across the board, I believe you are personally well intentioned, but you are not the one calling the shots. Once the precedent has been set, that power will be abused. This is not debatable. It's fact.

No, it won't take 20 years of grinding poverty for tyranny to come. It only took some planes crashing into some buildings for people to agree to literally get microwaved (well, millimeter waved but with no studies on long term effects) every time they fly.

One guy tried to use a shoe bomb, and now all of us have to remove our shoes to fly.

It's been almost 20 years since 9/11, yet we still have the TSA. We've already killed Bin Laden, yet the Patriot Act is still in full force.

The powers you give the government now will never be relinquished. Ever.
 

Kak

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I've been trying to figure out why you think this way ... what is it that you believe that brings you to this conclusion. I believe its likely that we will prevent people from getting it if we quarantine for a bit longer, and then do massive testing afterwards. We'll keep the percent of the population that gets it to the single digits. That will save millions of lives in the US alone. Sounds like you don't think that's possible?

In order to do that, they will have to be able to control every single case. Domestic and imported. Every single one. They weren’t able to do that at 1 case, 5 cases, 50 or 5000. Today we stand at nearly 250k cases in this country.

It is impossible to control. If we somehow do, I will be the first to eat my words, but I don’t see it happening.

The implications of what it would take to actually achieve this level of control are absolutely terrifying to me.
 
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Jon L

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I get that you're not arguing for it to be done across the board, I believe you are personally well intentioned, but you are not the one calling the shots. Once the precedent has been set, that power will be abused. This is not debatable. It's fact.

No, it won't take 20 years of grinding poverty for tyranny to come. It only took some planes crashing into some buildings for people to agree to literally get microwaved (well, millimeter waved but with no studies on long term effects) every time they fly.

One guy tried to use a shoe bomb, and now all of us have to remove our shoes to fly.

It's been almost 20 years since 9/11, yet we still have the TSA. We've already killed Bin Laden, yet the Patriot Act is still in full force.

The powers you give the government now will never be relinquished. Ever.
there's a pretty big gulf between what happened in the Soviet Union, Germany, North Korea, and the inconvenience of having to take our shoes off before we have to board a plane.

I agree with you that we are slowly having our liberties taken away. I don't think that's because of crises like this though. Our whole attitude towards freedom has changed over the course of time - in both good times and bad. Our education system has tilted towards teaching students to hate large portions of the US and our history. If you want to freak out about something, that would be a better place to focus your energies. A nation that has a good understanding of its values won't be troubled by a temporary need to restrain citizens.
 

Jon L

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In order to do that, they will have to be able to control every single case. Domestic and imported. Every single one. They weren’t able to do that at 1 case, 5 cases, 50 or 5000. Today we stand at nearly 250k cases in this country.

It is impossible to control. If we somehow do, I will be the first to eat my words, but I don’t see it happening.
I think they can ... with 10s of millions of tests. They didn't have the testing infrastructure in place when the thing first started.

You're right though ... time will tell.
 

Kak

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A nation that has a good understanding of its values won't be troubled by a temporary need to restrain citizens.

There is nothing so permanent as a temporary government program. -Milton Friedman

Keep people from their history, and they will easily be controlled. -Karl Marx
 
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WillHurtDontCare

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The powers you give the government now will never be relinquished. Ever.

"Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program."
 

Thoelt53

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Its not, though. Hitler came to power only after a very long re-education effort. He brainwashed an entire generation.

The current cultural climate of the US is not one where anything close to that would happen. We have way too much of a Don't Mess with Texas attitude for that to work. Give us 20 years of grinding poverty though? That would soften us up a bit.

Beyond that, none of us are suggesting that we do this across the board. This ankle monitor made the news because its newsworthy - in other words, its far outside the norm of what is going on here.
Maybe in Texas and a few select states in the South and Midwest.

The East and West Coasts love big government and will happily succumb to tyranny without even realizing it, just as it has happened again and again throughout history. Which leads us to a nation divided.

I’m glad you brought up ole Abe Lincoln in another post. He is a prime example of abuse of power leading to overreaching government and massive death.

This is why it’s dangerous to lack care and knowledge of history. History is written by the victors, and history taught in US schools is censored by the DoE.

Prior to the Civil War there was no federal income tax. The federal government collected revenue in the form of tariffs that mostly benefitted manufacturing interests in the North. The South, being predominately rural, had to rely on imported manufactured goods, which led to a major tax collecting discrepancy as more and more tariffs were introduced over the years.

Unable to come to a resolution, the southern states began to secede from the Union. Lincoln was unwavering in his promise that no state could legally, nor would otherwise be allowed to, secede. So in order to “preserve the Union” Lincoln provoked aggression from the South by restocking Fort Sumpter. The ensuing war killed ~700,000 all because the federal government refused to give up its tax collecting powers.
 
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Thoelt53

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Quick thought experiment. HIV / AIDS has a transmission rate of only 2% (through vaginal intercourse.) Someone has HIV and still demands they have the right to have unprotected sex with whoever they want. They say it's their right to do what they want. They continue to have unprotected sex on a daily basis. Should the government have the right to restrain them?
Only if they have been convicted of a crime.

You didn’t specify that this person is withholding the fact that they are HIV positive. If we assume that they disclose this fact prior to the act, then there is no crime.
 

Jon L

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Maybe in Texas and a few select states in the South and Midwest.

The East and West Coasts love big government and will happily succumb to tyranny without even realizing it, just as it has happened again and again throughout history. Which leads us to a nation divided.

I’m glad you brought up ole Abe Lincoln in another post. He is a prime example of abuse of power leading to overreaching government and massive death.

This is why it’s dangerous to lack care and knowledge of history. History is written by the victors, and history taught in US schools is censored by the DoE.

Prior to the Civil War there was no federal income tax. The federal government collected revenue in the form of tariffs that mostly benefitted manufacturing interests in the North. The South, being predominately rural, had to rely on imported manufactured goods, which led to a major tax collecting discrepancy as more and more tariffs were introduced over the years.

Unable to come to a resolution, the southern states began to secede from the Union. Lincoln was unwavering in his promise that no state could legally, nor would otherwise be allowed to, secede. So in order to “preserve the Union” Lincoln provoked aggression from the South by restocking Fort Sumpter. The ensuing war killed ~700,000 all because the federal government refused to give up its tax collecting powers.
I'm not sure what your point is. Mine is that we are a long ways off from anything approaching actual tyranny.

People here in the US complain of things like 'tyranny' and 'corruption.' Yeah, things aren't perfect here. However, people in countries where actual tyranny and corruption exist laugh at us.
 
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Kak

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Maybe in Texas and a few select states in the South and Midwest.

The East and West Coasts love big government and will happily succumb to tyranny without even realizing it, just as it has happened again and again throughout history. Which leads us to a nation divided.

I’m glad you brought up ole Abe Lincoln in another post. He is a prime example of abuse of power leading to overreaching government and massive death.

This is why it’s dangerous to lack care and knowledge of history. History is written by the victors, and history taught in US schools is censored by the DoE.

Prior to the Civil War there was no federal income tax. The federal government collected revenue in the form of tariffs that mostly benefitted manufacturing interests in the North. The South, being predominately rural, had to rely on imported manufactured goods, which led to a major tax collecting discrepancy as more and more tariffs were introduced over the years.

Unable to come to a resolution, the southern states began to secede from the Union. Lincoln was unwavering in his promise that no state could legally, nor would otherwise be allowed to, secede. So in order to “preserve the Union” Lincoln provoked aggression from the South by restocking Fort Sumpter. The ensuing war killed ~700,000 all because the federal government refused to give up its tax collecting powers.

Yes. Many don’t know the truth about the civil war. Most think it was about slavery.

Lincoln didn’t sign the emancipation proclamation until September of 1862. It didn’t become law until the first day of 1863. The war had been going on for over a year before slavery became part of the argument.
 

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Only if they have been convicted of a crime.

You didn’t specify that this person is withholding the fact that they are HIV positive. If we assume that they disclose this fact prior to the act, then there is no crime.

I don't think that the guys who were confirmed to be infected, yet continued walking around the streets as if nothing happened were carrying signs saying "I have Corona Virus".

They KNEW that they were carriers, and they didn't give a damn about how many others they could infect. Isn't that an irresponsible behavior?
 

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lowtek

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I don't think that the guys who were confirmed to be infected, yet continued walking around the streets as if nothing happened were carrying signs saying "I have Corona Virus".

They KNEW that they were carriers, and they didn't give a damn about how many others they could infect. Isn't that an irresponsible behavior?

He isn't saying it's responsible. He's saying they are accorded due process.
 

ChrisV

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Only if they have been convicted of a crime.

You didn’t specify that this person is withholding the fact that they are HIV positive. If we assume that they disclose this fact prior to the act, then there is no crime.
Yes, they knowingly have HIV and withholding that fact from their potential sexual partner.

I'm not an attorney but I'm fairly certain the government has the right to impose quarantines and have done so during various plagues.


LOUISVILLE, Ky. — Some judges are now ordering C0VlD-19 patients who are refusing to stay home to wear GPS ankle bracelets.

According to court records, a patient who tested positive for the disease went shopping on March 21, WTVO reported. For defying orders from doctors, city and state leaders, the judges are holding them legally liable.

The coronavirus is considered a federal “quaratinable” communicable disease.

Under Kentucky law, the Louisville Metro Public Health and Wellness has the authority to issue an “order of isolation,” which local law enforcement can enforce.

If the patient leaves their home or violates any of the conditions of the detention, they could be arrested or face charges.
 
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ChickenHawk

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He isn't saying it's responsible. He's saying they are accorded due process.
So what would you suggest? Bob is diagnosed with C0VlD-19 and refuses to stay home. What is your proposed solution?
 

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I'm not sure what your point is. Mine is that we are a long ways off from anything approaching actual tyranny.

People here in the US complain of things like 'tyranny' and 'corruption.' Yeah, things aren't perfect here. However, people in countries where actual tyranny and corruption exist laugh at us.
Sorry if I wasn’t clear.

I had a few points.

You previously mentioned Abe Lincoln and the Civil War, which I felt was a prime example of the danger that central governments pose. This is speculation, however, a divided nation could in fact lead to tyranny. Our history has shown us how far our own government will go to preserve itself.

Tying into my previous point is that a lack of care or knowledge of history is extremely dangerous. Most people understand the Civil War to be about slavery and state’s rights. Neither is really true. The war was fought over secession due to completely unfair taxes in the form of tariffs. Knowing this completely changes the narrative of US history. History tends to repeat itself when people forget the past.

The Civil War killed ~700,000 people, meanwhile C0VlD-19 is forecast to kill a fraction of that in the US.

Which is the bigger threat? C0VlD-19 or our own government? What if our choices today lay the ground for a totalitarian regime in the US 20 years from now?

Are you familiar with democide?

 
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GPM

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So I just got off the phone with one of my best friends. Turns out their entire family got sick with C0VlD-19.

His wife is about 6 months along with twins, and is considered higher risk so she had to go in for an ultrasound. She was a little bit sick and they would not take her. A few days passed and the baby-doctor said that they need to take her in no matter what due to the twins situation. Ultrasound lab told her they would take her if she got a COVID test, so she did. Lo and behold it ended up positive. Meanwhile her symptoms continued to get worse and worse. I guess it got so bad that they almost went into emergency, but ended up not going in the end. She is also a nurse, and he is a parametric, so they wouldn't be messing around.

My friend ended up being sick for like a day or two, and their kids had about a 24 hour cold symptoms. No big deal. The wife was sick for nearly 15 days! They are in the clear now though, but talk about scary.

On to how they got it. My friends brother visited them a few weeks ago and he was not sick. A few days after that visit he got a call from whatever government agency is handling this and told him that one of his coworkers tested positive for COVID and that he needs to stay home and isolate for 2 weeks. He ended up getting sick a few days later. About a week after he was sick is when my friends family started to feel sick. So yea, this is going around from people who feel fine and are not showing any symptoms.

Also some extended family in Mexico is also sick with it. An elderly aunt figure through marriage is on breathing machines and they said that she won't survive, and her entire family (grown children and spouses, their children, all of their friends) are sick as well.

My wife keeps showing me videos from Ecuador of bodies on the street. Crowds of people with masks on and some collapsing and needing to be dragged. Family members carrying bodies of other family members on tarps, each person to a limb. Bodies being loaded into the back of vehicles. Bodies covered in sheets outside of doors on the streets because there is no collection and no way to get rid of them. And last but not least, bodies being burned in the streets on pyres...

I have zero way of knowing for sure if any of those videos from Ecuador are real or not, and frankly they are so disturbing I don't want to even google it. I wish my wife would stop looking at them as it is seriously stressing and freaking her out. She is very worried about her family in Mexico as they are very poor and things there are not even remotely close to being handled how they are in Canada. I guess time will tell how this all plays out.

For now everyone keep safe!
 

ChrisV

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Okay, did a little legal research and the government does hold the right to apprehend individuals who might be infected with a communicable disease that could further a public health emergency.


31826

Again, I'm not an attorney - but I'm fairly certain that a judge isn't going to break the law to detain someone he has no legal right to, so I'm fairly certain that he's within his legal scope of power. The consequences of him essentially illegally detaining someone would be pretty serious for a judge.

@Esquire is the only attorney I know on the forum. Maybe he can shed some light.
 

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