The Worldwide C0VlD-19 Coronavirus Pandemic Discussion Thread...

[Mattie]

This pretty much sums up the whole situation

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Ah...jump the trolley off the track and let it fall off the cliff would be ideal! Wishful thinking I know.

 

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[MoneyDoc]

This pretty much sums up the whole situation

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Why aren't you saying the Influenza falls under the same problem? Not everyone gets a vaccine. There's still 3-5 million cases worldwide per year. To me, it looks like the same problem, no?

Not as aggressive as COVID? Doesn't matter. There's still deaths.

And I don't see how its economy vs death. No economy = no food = death. We're taking a lot of stuff for granted. How about we cut government programs and then shutdown the economy? You're still up for it? It's easy to say "they're choosing economy over people's lives" when you're getting ANY amount of FREE money from the government.

And by the way, I don't believe it is an economy vs people situation. That's exaggerating it quite a bit.

 

[Mattie]

Kentucky is forcing coronavirus patients to wear ankle monitors

This is messy.

futurism.com

Geez...might as well use the old ball and chain!

 

[Kak]

Kentucky is forcing coronavirus patients to wear ankle monitors

This is messy.

futurism.com

Wow. This is egregious.

 

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[ChickenHawk]

Why is this shocking though? It's expected. It's a new virus. There's 7.8 billion people on earth. Of course it's going to spread like crazy.

You don't find it shocking that a brand new illness -- something highly contagious that didn't exist until just a few months ago -- has infected at least a million people worldwide and is doubling at a pretty staggering rate? I can't say I'm terribly surprised, since I've been in the SomethingBurger camp from the beginning, but the reality is still crazy to watch.

Here's a recent headline.
Worldwide coronavirus cases top 500,000, doubling in just over a week
This headline is only a week old. Now we're at a million cases and growing. Expected or not, yeah, I guess I do find the reality pretty darn shocking.

 

[E-Sharp]

Let's say we get 10 million worldwide cases in 1 year until the vaccine is ready to go. What difference does that make? Deaths? I don't recall all these "all lives matter" posts when it comes to other diseases (of course all lives matter but sometimes nature wins). Why haven't we advocated for those as some of you are so intensely for this? What's the difference?

Which of these other diseases have overwhelmed healthcare systems across the globe? When has there been a massive spike in symptomatic patients in a short time period (1-2 months) during which there weren't enough resources to provide care for all of those patients?

Or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

 

[MoneyDoc]

Which of these other diseases have overwhelmed healthcare systems across the globe? When has there been a massive spike in symptomatic patients in a short time period (1-2 months) during which there weren't enough resources to provide care for all of those patients?

Or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

Not all healthcare systems are overwhelmed. Not all countries are affected as bad as USA, Italy, Spain, Iran.

A contagious virus spreading amongst a dense population like in NY, what do you think the outcome would be? You think hospitals won't be overwhelmed? Mortality rate is still lower than originally thought. This stuff is all expected is what I'm saying.

 

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[Bekit]

Well, we just reached 1 million confirmed cases worldwide. Crazy how that exponential math works.

Yep.

Remember what they were saying when we passed 300,000?

"It took 67 days from the first reported case to reach 100,000 cases, 11 days for the second 100,000 cases, and just four days for the third 100,000 cases."

Remember all the tweets when we passed 500,000?

"We went from zero to 250,000 in 4 months and then registered another 250,000 in just a week."

We're going to see that same effect with the speed that we reach the second million, and then the third.

 

[ChickenHawk]

Regarding Making Infected People Wear Ankle Bracelets

Wow. This is egregious.

But is it really? Infected or exposed people have been violating quarantine from almost since the beginning -- going shopping, eating out, attending father-daughter dances, visiting maternity wards, etc. Too many people are selfish idiots who seem to think their "little trip to the grocery store" is more important than the health of their neighbors.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't need ankle bracelets to make sure these idiots stay home. Unfortunately, we're not in that world, and if I had this sickness, I'd much rather have an ankle bracelet than be tossed into a quarantine center with other sick people to die or get better. (This is what China did.) Here in the USA, there was also a case where a confirmed person flat-out said he wasn't going to stay home, so the police felt compelled to guard his house to protect his neighbors.

I know that most of us are strong individualists here, but people with highly contagious diseases have long been discouraged from going out in public. The method of quarantine varies, but the necessity remains. Personally, I think it's pretty cool that we have a method that's not nearly as intrusive or dangerous as what's been required in the past.

 

[ChrisV]

Note those Ankle bracelets are only for the idiots who continually refuse to stay home.

I've only heard of one or two cases.

Coronavirus patient put on house arrest for refusing ‘stay-at-home’ order

Some judges are now ordering C0VlD-19 patients who are refusing to stay home to wear GPS ankle bracelets.

fox4kc.com

Regarding Making Infected People Wear Ankle Bracelets

But is it really? Infected or exposed people have been violating quarantine from almost since the beginning -- going shopping, eating out, attending father-daughter dances, visiting maternity wards, etc. Too many people are selfish idiots who seem to think their "little trip to the grocery store" is more important than the health of their neighbors.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't need ankle bracelets to make sure these idiots stay home. Unfortunately, we're not in that world, and if I had this sickness, I'd much rather have an ankle bracelet than be tossed into a quarantine center with other sick people to die or get better. (This is what China did.) Here in the USA, there was also a case where a confirmed person flat-out said he wasn't going to stay home, so the police felt compelled to guard his house to protect his neighbors.

I know that most of us are strong individualists here, but people with highly contagious diseases have long been discouraged from going out in public. The method of quarantine varies, but the necessity remains. Personally, I think it's pretty cool that we have a method that's not nearly as intrusive or dangerous as what's been required in the past.

It's a tough situation. I mean there's no reason someone with C0VlD-19 should be going out into public, but people from the United States are just so used to the word "freedom" that we're not used to this.

Honestly those people with ankle bracelets are lucky in comparison to what the government can do. If you knowingly have HIV and have sex without telling someone, you're charged with attempted murder. If you knowingly have C0VlD-19 and are irresponsible, and that irresponsibility results in someone's death there could be definitely be a precedent manslaughter after all this calms down.

 

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[biophase]

Why aren't you saying the Influenza falls under the same problem? Not everyone gets a vaccine. There's still 3-5 million cases worldwide per year. To me, it looks like the same problem, no?

Not as aggressive as COVID? Doesn't matter. There's still deaths.

To me the biggest difference between this and the Flu is that you don't know if you have it. That is the biggest unknown and it is scary for both people who are afraid of getting it and for people who are afraid of giving it to others.

Let's say MJ wanted to do a poker night. With the flu, if you come over and are coughing, sound horrible and sniffling, everyone at the table will say, get the f*ck out of here you can't play. But most likely, the person would have never gone to poker night in the first place because he knows that he is sick.

With C0VlD-19, everyone could be feeling fine, no signs of any sickness. We play poker for 4 hours and 2 weeks later we all have it. And worse is that we all brought it back home to people we live with and can be responsible for their death.

That is the unknown that will not go away until we get a vaccination. Many people will never ever take that chance. This is why this is different.

 

[James Klymus]

But is it really?

Yes, it is.

I don't care what the circumstances are. I don't care if its a highly contagious disease that makes me shit my pants every 5 minutes. You do not forfeit your civil liberties. Ever.

You have to draw the line some where, and forcing innocent people into ankle bracelets is not acceptable. The government is treating those people like children, and that is very, very worrisome.

Edit: I saw that they were doing this to people who were being jerks and were sick and refused to stay home. I was under the impression that they were doing it to innocent civilians.

 

[biophase]

Yes, it is.

I don't care what the circumstances are. I don't care if its a highly contagious disease that makes me shit my pants every 5 minutes. You do not forfeit your civil liberties. Ever.

You have to draw the line some where, and forcing innocent people into ankle bracelets is not acceptable. The government is treating those people like children, and that is very, very worrisome.

But this isn't a normal person walking around. It is someone that knows that they have a contagious disease. I don't think that this is an innocent person in that regard. What if this guy is the waiter serving your parents at a restaurant? Or he's behind you in line at the grocery?

 

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[Andy Black]

The government is treating those people like children, and that is very, very worrisome.

The weekend after being asked to socially distance in Ireland there were a few pubs packed with people singing Neil Diamond's "Touching Me, Touching You". There were even groups of people drinking together wearing Coronovirus t-shirts. I wouldn't even say they were acting like children - that's an insult to children.

 

[Jon L]

Yes, it is.

I don't care what the circumstances are. I don't care if its a highly contagious disease that makes me shit my pants every 5 minutes. You do not forfeit your civil liberties. Ever.

You have to draw the line some where, and forcing innocent people into ankle bracelets is not acceptable. The government is treating those people like children, and that is very, very worrisome.

Edit: I saw that they were doing this to people who were being jerks and were sick and refused to stay home. I was under the impression that they were doing it to innocent civilians.

when you're under an order to stay home, and you don't, you're lucky that all that happens to you is that you're now wearing an ankle bracelet.

If this gets worse, the government can declare martial law and force everyone to stay home, at gun point. So, an ankle bracelet? Yeah, its startling. But I don't care.

 

[Jon L]

The weekend after being asked to socially distance in Ireland there were a few pubs packed with people singing Neil Diamond's "Touching Me, Touching You". There were even groups of people drinking together wearing Coronovirus t-shirts. I don't even want to say they were acting like children - that's an insult to children.

Seriously. My kids know better than that.

 

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[Thoelt53]

Note those Ankle bracelets are only for the idiots who continually refuse to stay home.

I've only heard of one or two cases.

Coronavirus patient put on house arrest for refusing ‘stay-at-home’ order

Some judges are now ordering C0VlD-19 patients who are refusing to stay home to wear GPS ankle bracelets.

fox4kc.com

It's a tough situation. I mean there's no reason someone with C0VlD-19 should be going out into public, but people from the United States are just so used to the word "freedom" that we're not used to this.

Honestly those people with ankle bracelets are lucky in comparison to what the government can do. If you knowingly have HIV and have sex without telling someone, you're charged with attempted murder. If you knowingly have C0VlD-19 and are irresponsible, and that irresponsibility results in someone's death there could be definitely be a precedent manslaughter after all this calms down.

It’s egregious because these people haven’t been convicted of a crime, yet the state has given itself the power to lock a tracking device to their ankle.

You want to arrest these repeat offenders and give them a fair trial? By all means, the judge could even hold them without bail.

The bottom line is there needs to be due process. A crisis cannot be allowed to dissolve the fabric of our legal system.

Historically, in times of crisis, people BEG the government to expand its power to come and “save” them. The problem is that the government can’t save you, or me, and will only abuse that power in the future. There are thousands of years of precedent here, and the modern world/USA are not immune.

The US was ranked as being the most apt nation to handle a pandemic. There are areas that we now know can be improved on for the next one. Forfeiting liberties and expanding government powers WILL NOT solve this pandemic or any future pandemics.

 

[Thoelt53]

But this isn't a normal person walking around. It is someone that knows that they have a contagious disease. I don't think that this is an innocent person in that regard. What if this guy is the waiter serving your parents at a restaurant? Or he's behind you in line at the grocery?

He hasn’t been convicted of a crime. It is unlawful to treat an innocent person like a convict.

The man needs to be arrested, charged with a crime, and then deemed guilty of the crime in a fair trial.

That is how our legal system works.

 

[Thoelt53]

when you're under an order to stay home, and you don't, you're lucky that all that happens to you is that you're now wearing an ankle bracelet.

If this gets worse, the government can declare martial law and force everyone to stay home, at gun point. So, an ankle bracelet? Yeah, its startling. But I don't care.

Your lack of care is dangerous. It completely discards due process in the name of safety.

There’s a disturbing number of folks here who are deficient in history.

 

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[Thoelt53]

Coronavirus: NJ Gov. Orders State Police To Commandeer Needed Medical Supplies

The order came as New Jersey saw deaths related to C0VlD-19 illness jumped 182 in 24-hours to a total of 537.

newyork.cbslocal.com

Here we go... state sanctioned property theft.

 

[James Klymus]

But this isn't a normal person walking around. It is someone that knows that they have a contagious disease. I don't think that this is an innocent person in that regard. What if this guy is the waiter serving your parents at a restaurant? Or he's behind you in line at the grocery?

Yeah, I edited my post. Didn't see that he was acting like a jerk and refusing to stay home.

 

[Jon L]

Your lack of care is dangerous. It completely discards due process in the name of safety.

There’s a disturbing number of folks here who are deficient in history.

Abraham Lincoln did it ... way back in history. We seemed to survive just fine.

President Lincoln suspends the writ of habeas corpus during the Civil War

John Merryman, a state legislator from Maryland, is arrested for attempting to hinder Union troops from moving from Baltimore to Washington during the Civil War and is held at Fort McHenry by Union military officials. His attorney immediately sought a writ of habeas corpus so that a federal...

www.history.com

I get what you're saying. It is dangerous. But, what's more dangerous? Bunches of people running around infecting people with a deadly virus? Or an isolated time and place where we forced people to behave?

 

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[James Klymus]

The weekend after being asked to socially distance in Ireland there were a few pubs packed with people singing Neil Diamond's "Touching Me, Touching You". There were even groups of people drinking together wearing Coronovirus t-shirts. I wouldn't even say they were acting like children - that's an insult to children.

A lot of kids my age (embarrassingly) were out in chicago drinking over st patricks day weekend (Right when people were starting to get concerned here in the US), and the bars were packed.

The mayor was PISSED

 

[NovaAria]

In an ideal world, we wouldnt need to put ankle bracelets on people.

But in an ideal world, we wouldnt have this bullshit:


These people endangered themselves, their children, their parents, their whole F*cking economy because they did not take the threat seriously.

Yes, it's stepping on people's civil rights. But they are endangering everyone else and their whole country's economy.

 

[GIlman]

Regarding Making Infected People Wear Ankle Bracelets

But is it really? Infected or exposed people have been violating quarantine from almost since the beginning -- going shopping, eating out, attending father-daughter dances, visiting maternity wards, etc. Too many people are selfish idiots who seem to think their "little trip to the grocery store" is more important than the health of their neighbors.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't need ankle bracelets to make sure these idiots stay home. Unfortunately, we're not in that world, and if I had this sickness, I'd much rather have an ankle bracelet than be tossed into a quarantine center with other sick people to die or get better. (This is what China did.) Here in the USA, there was also a case where a confirmed person flat-out said he wasn't going to stay home, so the police felt compelled to guard his house to protect his neighbors.

I know that most of us are strong individualists here, but people with highly contagious diseases have long been discouraged from going out in public. The method of quarantine varies, but the necessity remains. Personally, I think it's pretty cool that we have a method that's not nearly as intrusive or dangerous as what's been required in the past.

Note those Ankle bracelets are only for the idiots who continually refuse to stay home.

I've only heard of one or two cases.

Coronavirus patient put on house arrest for refusing ‘stay-at-home’ order

Some judges are now ordering C0VlD-19 patients who are refusing to stay home to wear GPS ankle bracelets.

fox4kc.com

It's a tough situation. I mean there's no reason someone with C0VlD-19 should be going out into public, but people from the United States are just so used to the word "freedom" that we're not used to this.

Honestly those people with ankle bracelets are lucky in comparison to what the government can do. If you knowingly have HIV and have sex without telling someone, you're charged with attempted murder. If you knowingly have C0VlD-19 and are irresponsible, and that irresponsibility results in someone's death there could be definitely be a precedent manslaughter after all this calms down.

Ankle monitors have a long history of use when people refuse to observe medically mandated quarantines. Just look up Tuberculosis and ankle monitors.

 

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[ChrisV]

Edit: I saw that they were doing this to people who were being jerks and were sick and refused to stay home. I was under the impression that they were doing it to innocent civilians.

That was my fault, I should have added the other link. Edited.

 

[lowtek]

Some of you guys.... wow.

This is how tyranny is rolled out: with the pleading of people who are scared of their own shadow.

 

[NovaAria]

If you're going to do that, then you can have the phone simply record all the other phones that get within 6' of it, and if someone tests positive, they can broadcast that information to every phone they were within 6' of within the previous two weeks.

That way, people will know if they've potentially been exposed.

I believe that this is exactly what South Korea implemented, followed quickly by China.
There is lots of talk around of implementing systems like these in many countries, mine included, but we're getting close to a 1984 kind of set up here, and no government would refuse such an opportunity...

 

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[EVMaso]

You might be able to do that with bluetooth since basically everyone carries a phone at this point. If you get within 6 inches of another cellphone it can beep.

If you're going to do that, then you can have the phone simply record all the other phones that get within 6' of it, and if someone tests positive, they can broadcast that information to every phone they were within 6' of within the previous two weeks.

That way, people will know if they've potentially been exposed.

China did something like this with QR code scanners. Every time you leave your house, you have a QR code on something (not sure what it is, maybe a piece of paper? Some sort of ID) that gets scanned by a member of the party. EVERY BLOCK you get scanned. This information gets put into a database. If a scan indicates that you were near anyone who is infected, you are not allowed to go further.

It was a big twitter thread I posted a few pages back, someone was describing what their employee in China was going through.

 

[Bekit]

Regarding Making Infected People Wear Ankle Bracelets

But is it really? Infected or exposed people have been violating quarantine from almost since the beginning -- going shopping, eating out, attending father-daughter dances, visiting maternity wards, etc. Too many people are selfish idiots who seem to think their "little trip to the grocery store" is more important than the health of their neighbors.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't need ankle bracelets to make sure these idiots stay home. Unfortunately, we're not in that world, and if I had this sickness, I'd much rather have an ankle bracelet than be tossed into a quarantine center with other sick people to die or get better. (This is what China did.) Here in the USA, there was also a case where a confirmed person flat-out said he wasn't going to stay home, so the police felt compelled to guard his house to protect his neighbors.

I know that most of us are strong individualists here, but people with highly contagious diseases have long been discouraged from going out in public. The method of quarantine varies, but the necessity remains. Personally, I think it's pretty cool that we have a method that's not nearly as intrusive or dangerous as what's been required in the past.

This brings up a topic that I've been mulling over.

In Schenck v. United States, Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes made the famous statement, “The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic.”

Why? What's the big deal?

Because people could get killed in the resulting stampede.

Similarly, we don't give suicide bombers freedom to circulate in society with a loaded vest and backpack.

Neither do we protect the rights of an active shooter in a school, workplace, or shopping center.

If somebody was going around to hospital rooms and nursing homes and making people drink poison, there would be mass outrage.

In other words, the law has NEVER protected anyone who is going around killing people.

There's a lot of discussion around the fact that this lockdown is "taking away our rights."

But in this particular situation, we never had the right in the first place to go around killing people.

If you have the virus, YOU ARE a weapon. You circulate in society, and people could die.

So of course people with the virus should be quarantined.

If someone is like "I don't wanna," tough.

We wouldn't tolerate a school shooter who said, "I don't wanna stop killing people." They'd be taken down.

But here's where it gets really messy, and where the current policy feels super sketchy.

Let's set aside for a moment the people who KNOW they're positive and flaunt the quarantine because they're just selfish and inconsiderate like that. Hopefully that would be a minority of people, and hopefully that minority would be able to be dealt with.

What is FAR more concerning is that asymptomatic people are spreaders.

• If I don't suspect that I might have the virus, why would I stop circulating in society?
• Even if I suspect that I might have the virus, I cannot get tested unless I am bad enough to be hospitalized.

So nobody can know at this point who is infected. Nobody can know who it's safe to hang out with. Nobody can know where it is and isn't safe to go.

In a typical quarantine, the infected people would be isolated and separated from society.

In this case, that never happened.

Therefore, the only way for somebody like me to keep from getting infected is to quarantine MYSELF.

OK, up to this point, while it's regrettable that better quarantining and contact tracing wasn't carried out, it's all well and good if I choose to exercise my right to quarantine myself.

Where it gets really tricky, and where a lot of people are objecting (and where I admittedly haven't succeeded in sorting out my own thinking on the matter) is the fact that now it's not up to me or you to choose. EVERYONE is quarantined.

On one hand, it seems like, "duh. That's what they have to do to get this virus under control."

On the other hand, it legitimately looks like a massive overreach of power and control. And we're kidding ourselves if we think they're going to give it back when this is all over.