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SEBASTlAN

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Time freedom?
Location freedom?
Financial freedom?

Employees lack the first and second. These guys (and the homeless) lack the third.
 
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I have to admit that living in one of the most expensive cities of the world, it’s crossed my mind to move to a more remote location and just “enjoy life”. Meaning I wouldn’t have to deal with employees, investors, building a business and all the pain that comes with that. But then every time I think it through, it doesn’t add up.
I’m 10 min from downtown with restaurants, humans, life and yet I’m also next to mountains and water. It’s beautiful and sunny, my friends are all here and building a business is a lot of fun (when it freaking works! It can be very frustrating too, I’m sure we all know the feeling). Without challenges, I feel my mind would atrophy. I’d be bored and want to get back “into the game”. In the end, cashing out and moving out feels no different than giving up. Suddenly, it’s depressing to think about it.
@MTF wrote a post about living the hard way. It’s applicable here too.

I went for a bike ride, climbed to the 1st lookout of Cypress mountain and took a photo. All within an hour from leaving my house. Saw lots of people with happy faces along the way. Hard to complain ... pic attached. Thats my dream. I just need to be successful enough to keep it, grow it and help my kid learn the way.

5E42545E-3F4E-47E1-8FC6-963C6B948AFD.jpeg
 
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Harman

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It's wild. The idea of sacrificing a potential future and re-imagining it as a gain makes my head hurt. At least this is how I'm interpreting this. This couple made a decision and I wish them the very best. There are definitely aspects to their story that I find upsetting but I'm not going to try to justify their decisions in my own head.

I did want to touch on this though:
1622331703356.png

Once again, their choice. Hopefully she's truly happy about this aspect. My wife will always tell me not to spend a lot on her for anniversary/b-day/christmas/etc.. But I do anyways, because I love the way her eyes light up when I nailed the perfect gift for her.

My drive to achieve TRUE financial freedom stems a lot from my desire for the people I love the most to have a better life. I want my wife to not have to stress about things breaking down or budgeting for grocery shopping, I want to be able to afford piano lessons, dance lessons, and any sports my kids want to participate in. My in-laws live with us and I want to be able to bear that burden fully without relying on outside help.

I want to provide the best that I can for my family and not have to sacrifice b/c we couldn't afford it.

I dunno. I seek a rich life for myself and for my loved ones. I've identified those things that will get me there.

I understand that different people want different things.

I'm with MJ on this, let the couple do their thing, but man, the way the media is playing their story is the true crime.
 

Mathuin

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I have to admit that living in one of the most expensive cities of the world, it’s crossed my mind to move to a more remote location and just “enjoy life”. Meaning I wouldn’t have to deal with employees, investors, building a business and all the pain that comes with that. But then every time I think it through, it doesn’t add up.
I’m 10 min from downtown with restaurants, humans, life and yet I’m also next to mountains and water. It’s beautiful and sunny, my friends are all here and building a business is a lot of fun (when it freaking works! It can be very frustrating too, I’m sure we all know the feeling). Without challenges, I feel my mind would atrophy. I’d be bored and want to get back “into the game”. In the end, cashing out and moving out feels no different than giving up. Suddenly, it’s depressing to think about it.
@MTF wrote a post about living the hard way. It’s applicable here too.

I went for a bike ride, climbed to the 1st lookout of Cypress mountain and took a photo. All within an hour from leaving my house. Saw lots of people with happy faces along the way. Hard to complain ... pic attached. Thats my dream. I just need to be successful enough to keep it, grow it and help my kid learn the way.
That looks awesome! A similar thing to what you are talking about happened to John Somnez from Bulldog Mindset. He retired at 33 due to his real estate investments and moved to hawaii and he hated it.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-cGLisPbXA
 

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You’re not free of something if you’re whole existence is defined by it.

You win the internet post of the week.
 

MJ DeMarco

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It is done and heading to all of the podcast apps... LOL


Great analysis of what few people refuse to say...

This might be "time freedom", but it's not "financial freedom."

And to call it so is lie, and a lie to yourself just to check a box for a narrative.

Just because CNBC says this kind of financial fanaticism is financial freedom, doesn't make it true.

My next video on YouTube will be on this, which anyway, is long overdue.
 

Madame Peccato

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Great analysis of what few people refuse to say...

This might be "time freedom", but it's not "financial freedom."

And to call it so is lie, and a lie to yourself just to check a box for a narrative.

Just because CNBC says this kind of financial fanaticism is financial freedom, doesn't make it true.

My next video on YouTube will be on this, which anyway, is long overdue.

You can't have time freedom without (at least partial) financial freedom. I don't know if you can fully describe it statistically, but having 0% financial freedom and 100% time freedom, like these people, sounds miserable.

I'd rather be a little less free (having to work, say, 10 hours per week), and have way higher financial freedom.

BUT. Like I mentioned in my last post, they have at least "some" financial freedom. In fact, the guy has a course about financial freedom. Is it a guru course? You can bet your a$$. If it works it works though. Surely he has some leverage on his money thanks to this.

I'm grateful for news like this one. They let me polish my views of the fastlane, and remind me that there are extremes I want to avoid.
 
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Off-topic:
W: Let's toast our lifestyle with some champagne!

M: Uh, we don't have any champagne and we can't afford to buy any for this photo-shoot.

W: Damn, you're right. But in a news article about financial independence, shouldn't we splurge and just buy it?

M: No, we didn't budget for champagne -- that's how we're financially free now! We can't break our budget just because a magazine wants us us to.

W: I'll go pump some water from the well -- they'll never know.


M: Yes, great idea!

Woman pumps water and returns filling the champagne flutes with water.

M: Toast darling! Here's to being financially independent!
Meanwhile someone, somewhere in the world is filling champagne bottles with soda water and sells them for $5 a pop.

On Topic:

There was a post written by some lower level of Microsoft employee (lets stray away
from that it was MS, it could be any other company).
So he was waiting at the cafeteria and Steve Ballmer came to order a muffin.
Cafeteria worker said the price.
Steve looked inside wallet, searched for a bit and didn't find smaller bill.
So he took $20, gave it to worker, took his muffin and walked away.


I'm not saying that being rich means you should overpay.
The point is that financial freedom should let you do whatever
you want to do that can be legally paid for.

Financial freedom is when you start thinking how or what to do,
instead of thinking about its affordability.
 

e_fastlane

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If the stock market lost 50% of its value and stayed there for the next 3 years, would you need to get a job? If yes, you're not financially independent. If you can't spend more than $50 a month at a nice restaurant because of your radical "budget", you're not financially independent.

Funny how the word "financial independence" has lost its meaning...
Where are you getting this information? Seems like you setup a weak strawman just to knock it down. They have a 1.2 mil portfolio and they spend 40k a year.

There are tools (like here) that will run simulations on every single possible outcome depending on when you put your money in last 100+ years. Taking out 40k a year ADJUSTED for inflation for 40 years would result in ZERO historical failures. That means that if today they have 1.2million in their portfolio, tomorrow a recession hits that is as bad and long as the great depression... They can keep taking out and inflation adjusted 40k EVERY YEAR and even then they won't run out of money. Thats even considering the ABSOLUTE worst historic case scenario. So where are you getting that they are at the whims of the stock market? They are as solidly financially independent as you realistically can be, as long as they never want to spend more lavishly than now. Nothing is guaranteeing that the next 40 years won't be worse than any other 40 year period we have ever had, and maybe they run out of money. But it's not like anyone is chopping off their hands. So they can always go back to work. But if we are talking about such extreme case scenarios, none of us are financially secure for the rest of our lives either. Try starting your own business while living in the USSR. Nothing is guaranteeing we won't have that here in 30 years either.

I don't disagree that this isn't the lifestyle I would want to live either, but that is just a value judgement. As long as they are happy with the lifestyle, why should they care about our opinion on it. Makes no more sense than insisting chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla. Biophase seems to be the only poster on here that is able to separate fact from moral judgements. I know people that are not ambitious and just don't care for material things or extravagant experiences. What are they supposed to do, consume just to impress the rest of us?

Again, I agree with your opinion on their lifestyle and I agree that it is sappy for media to be glorifying them. I just don't agree with your claim that they can't be financially independent in their situation and how harshly you're morally judging them for choosing a different lifestyle.
 
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Kak

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I know people that are not ambitious and just don't care for material things or extravagant experiences. What are they supposed to do, consume just to impress the rest of us?
But the article paints a picture where they actually clearly do care about such things...

He had a supercharged corvette, Yamaha sport bike, a Cadillac CTS, that “indulgent” 1600 square foot home with a pool, daily meals out...

He clearly DOES like that shit, but decided not to have any of it and to be self righteous about not having it.

Desiring to go out for a meal every day and then preceding to budget $50 per month for it is not financial independence. They are very dependent on a budget. It’s literally wasting life.

If you’re not doing what you want, you should be figuring out how to do what you want. They, instead, are ignoring what they actually want out of life.

I understand there are minimalists. I understand that there are people that don’t give a damn, but they aren’t those people.
 
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Kak

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There are tools (like here) that will run simulations on every single possible outcome depending on when you put your money in last 100+ years. Taking out 40k a year ADJUSTED for inflation for 40 years would result in ZERO historical failures.
Until there is. Have you ever looked at a graph of hyperinflation? There’s no constant to play the math off of.

I‘d easily bet the people with the average conservative, lazy, Edward Jones portfolio are going to lose HARD to inflation over the next 40 years.

Only the intelligent and creative are going to gain.
 

e_fastlane

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But the article paints a picture where they actually clearly do care about such things...

He had a supercharged corvette, Yamaha sport bike, a Cadillac CTS, that “indulgent” 1600 square foot home with a pool, daily meals out...

He clearly DOES like that shit, but decided not to have any of it and to be self righteous about not having it.

Desiring to go out for a meal every day and then preceding to budget $50 per month for it is not financial independence. They are very dependent on a budget. It’s literally wasting life.

If you’re not doing what you want, you should be figuring out how to do what you want. They, instead, are ignoring what they actually want out of life.

I understand there are minimalists. I understand that there are people that don’t give a damn, but they aren’t those people.
Does he still want those things? MJ use to have a lambo and now drives a middle class car. Basically same story for both my business partner and I.

I am DEFINITELY not saying I know that they aren't just BS'ing both themselves and us. Who knows.
Until there is. Have you ever looked at a graph of hyperinflation? There’s no constant to play the math off of.

I‘d easily bet the people with the average conservative, lazy, Edward Jones portfolio are going to lose HARD to inflation over the next 40 years.

Only the intelligent and creative are going to gain.
I assume you are using the word hyperinflation in a colloquial way to signify high inflation rather than in it's actual meaning (inflation on the order of 50% PER MONTH.)

The calculators use the history of the last century for both market and inflation. So Yea, it does account for crazy inflation, like in the 70s, 80s, etc

Obviously the best way to best inflation is having a business. No arguments there. But having money in the market is a distant 2nd best atleast.

If you mean actual hyperinflation, we all have bigger problems, business owner or not.

Lastly, I didn't spend much time looking into these people at all. A light look does show he has some kind of online business selling masterminds or something like that....... Seems to me there is more to the story than just living on 40k......Maybe some kind of business afterall and we are all just hating that he got free advertisement on the media!
 

MJ DeMarco

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now drives a middle class car.

I drive a $75,000 truck (my daily driver) not a Chevy Malibu.

I just don't agree with your claim that they can't be financially independent in their situation and how harshly your morally judging them for choosing a different lifestyle.

You missed the point.

I don't care about their modern day ascetic lifestyle. Good for them.

However, no matter how you want to slice it, these folks are NOT financially independent.

My issue isn't with how these folks live -- I could give a shit.

My issue is with the media (and them) redefining financial freedom. Well if these are the new rules, guess what?

I'm now identify as a billionaire.

Why?

I have a networth of a billion+ pennies, so now, I'm a billionaire because I say so, and it is my new definition. And everyone needs to respect it.

If you want to go through life with this delusional definition of "financial freedom" be my guest.

If you want to dumb down "financial independence" into this form of financial fanaticism, be my guest.

And you're at the wrong forum to argue for it.

Want to know what real financial freedom looks like?

It means living your life, every day, without financial restraint. Notice those words, "financial" and "restraint".

Financial = Money.
Freedom = Without restraint.


Do these people live financially without restraint? Nope, not even remotely close. It's like an 400 lb obese person wanting culture to label them "healthy."

When you're truly financially free, YOU KNOW IT.

YOU FEEL IT.

YOU LIVE IT.

NO CALCULATOR IS NEEDED.

NO RESTRAINT IS NEEDED.

When I go to a restaurant, I have no budget. I can eat and drink whatever I want. And every day.

If I want to take a first class flight to Costa Rica and spend two months there, I can.

When I go to a store, I have no budget. I can fill the shopping cart until it holds nothing more -- with whatever I want. That last time I looked at a price at a store was 20 years ago.

When I go to a car dealership, I have no budget -- if like that Lamborghini, I can buy it and three more, and pay cash for it with nothing else changing for me financially.

The word "budget" is not in my daily, weekly, or monthly vocabulary unless it relates to a multi-million-dollar house -- which is not a daily, weekly, or monthly expenditure.

My daily existence is not ruled by an authoritarian dictator known as money.

FREE from money? LOL X 1000 - NO, these poor folks are OWNED by money.


Where are you getting this information? Seems like you setup a weak strawman just to knock it down.

Actually, that comment was based on supposition, not based on some extensive financial calculator.

Nonetheless, you proved my point by posting a calculator.

I don't need a calculator --again, because I live truly financially independent.

Financial independence doesn't need a calculator for daily, weekly, or monthly living.

If these folks can survive a 50% market decline and a 3 year recession it still doesn't change the facts: They do not have financial freedom, they have time freedom.

It's no strawman that the guy admitted he had to give up dining out, his cars, and other passions all for this suck fest.

I get it, he's proud for owning his time and I agree with that foundation.

However there's a big difference between time freedom + time AND financial freedom. The panhandling bum on the street also has time freedom, as does the unemployed college graduate who still lives at home with his parents, but they don't have financial freedom.

In all cases, every penny needs to be religiously monitored and worshiped.

It's a cult and Money is their Jim Jones.

Enjoy the Koolaid...
 
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Kak

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A $75,000 truck is middle class?
A $30,000 ATV/Rock crawler is middle class?

Uh, OK.



You missed the point.

I don't care about their modern day ascetic lifestyle. Good for them.

However, no matter how you want to slice it, these folks are NOT financially independent.

My issue isn't with how these folks live -- I could give a shit.

My issue is with the media (and them) redefining financial freedom. Well if these are the new rules, guess what?

I'm now identify as a billionaire.

Why?

I have a networth of a billion+ pennies, so now, I'm a billionaire because I say so, and it is my new definition. And everyone needs to respect it.

If you want to go through life with this delusional definition of "financial freedom" be my guest.

If you want to dumb down "financial independence" into this form of financial fanaticism, be my guest.

And you're at the wrong forum to argue for it.

Want to know what real financial freedom looks like?

It means living your life, every day, without financial restraint. Notice those words, "financial" and "restraint".

Financial = Money.
Freedom = Without restraint.


Do these people live financially without restraint? Nope, not even remotely close. It's like an 400 lb obese person wanting culture to label them "healthy."

When you're truly financially free, YOU KNOW IT.

YOU FEEL IT.

YOU LIVE IT.

NO CALCULATOR IS NEEDED.

NO RESTRAINT IS NEEDED.

When I go to a restaurant, I have no budget. I can eat and drink whatever I want. And every day.

If I want to take a first class flight to Costa Rica and spend two months there, I can.

When I go to a store, I have no budget. I can fill the shopping cart until it holds nothing more -- with whatever I want. That last time I looked at a price at a store was 20 years ago.

When I go to a car dealership, I have no budget -- if like that Lamborghini, I can buy it and three more, and pay cash for it with nothing else changing for me financially.

The word "budget" is not in my daily, weekly, or monthly vocabulary unless it relates to a multi-million-dollar house -- which is not a daily, weekly, or monthly expenditure.

My daily existence is not ruled by an authoritarian dictator known as money.

FREE from money? LOL X 1000 - NO, these poor folks are OWNED by money.




Actually, that comment was based on supposition, not based on some extensive financial calculator.

Nonetheless, you proved my point by posting a calculator.

I don't need a calculator --again, because I live truly financially independent.

Financial independence doesn't need a calculator for daily, weekly, or monthly living.

If these folks can survive a 50% market decline and a 3 year recession it still doesn't change the facts: They do not have financial freedom, they have time freedom.

It's no strawman that the guy admitted he had to give up dining out, his cars, and other passions all for this suck fest.

I get it, he's proud for owning his time and I agree with that foundation.

However there's a big difference between time freedom + time AND financial freedom. The panhandling bum on the street also has time freedom, as does the unemployed college graduate who still lives at home with his parents, but they don't have financial freedom.

In all cases, every penny needs to be religiously monitored and worshiped.

It's a cult and Money is their Jim Jones.

Enjoy the Koolaid...
And you did this without crypto? :rofl:
 

redshift

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They should rename this movement T.I.R.E - i.e Tired of Living.
 
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@MJ DeMarco nailed it.
This forum brings together entrepreneurs. This is the absolute worst and wrong place to try to argue that living on a budget is financial freedom. The whole point of what we all try (and some of us succeed in doing) is to avoid sacrificing and settling for less. The whole point here is a pursuit of more, so much more that “budget” isn’t in our vocabulary.

Choosing not to buy a luxury car is different than not being able to afford one.
 

Andy Black

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One of my favourite lines is from MJ:

“Money is proof you helped your fellow man.”

I like earning my money by helping people.
 
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Kevin88660

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I think there is a lot of limitations to this as discussed by others, besides living an insane frugal life.

1)Rather high salary than average joe is required. How every FIRE leader was once working in IT
2) Extreme good investment return and macro market dependent
3) Usually semi-retirement rather than full retirement

I would personally think this is great path provided that it is being marketed objectively, instead of being sold as the full solution.

I think this is great if it is marketed as one option to get "first pot of gold", a term that is used frequently in the Chinese speaking community. Every great riches needs to start with somewhere with a first pot of gold.

Instead of aiming semi-retirement at 1 million, just go for 400k so that you can aim for a business life full time. Never worried about rental and initial investment again. Again only applicable if you have a high income and didn't invest at the top of the market.
 
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Black_Dragon43

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Perhaps the most drastic change they made was limiting their restaurant budget to $50 per month, a difficult task for Steve, a restaurant aficionado who says he once made a point to visit an eatery a day for a full year.
Yes, they set their restaurant budget to $50 per month, you wanna know why?

BECAUSE

brass-balls-gggr1.jpg

THEY HAVE NO BALLS!

That's WHY!


You know, when I was younger, I thought I was a strong lad because I never drank.

And then I grew up and figured out that I didn't drink because I had no BALLS.

That's why I was avoiding all the "difficult" things too.

"Oh I don't like this, let's not do it!"

And as I grew a bit more, I realised that actually...

Avoiding these stressors... whether it's drink, emotional stress, and so on...

Is actually making you weak. Controlled stress is good, and it actually makes you stronger and more resilient.

What these FIRE mindset guys don't get is that they're making themselves satisfied with LITTLE, because they're AFRAID they can't have more. They're AFRAID they'll be poor - that's why they don't spend. They're AFRAID they cannot create BILLIONS in wealth. That's why they save so much...
 

MJ DeMarco

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Things I'll take to my grave...

An abundance of fulfilling memories, rich experiences, a legacy, an impact on the world, real financial freedom for my heirs, and a lifetime of joy knowing I lived life to the fullest and settled for nothing.

Things I won't take to my grave...

Regret
and a forlorn realization that I spent the back half of my life stuck in a trailer micromanaging every dollar in and out of my life.
 
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What happens to these retired people if she gets pregnant? Lol, that will poke a few holes in their budget
They stopped poking a while ago. Not in the budget.
Hahaha.
 

MJ DeMarco

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They stopped poking a while ago. Not in the budget.
Hahaha.

Let's try to be nice.

I don't want to judge people's decisions/lifestyles -- I know a lot of people who don't want children -- I'm judging/critiquing their delusion that they are financially free.

Of course, the real travesty would be wanting children, but resigning, "We can't have kids because it's not in the budget."

Which is my entire point.

You're not free of fiscal constraints, you are handcuffed by them.
 
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biophase

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It means living your life, every day, without financial restraint. Notice those words, "financial" and "restraint".

Financial = Money.
Freedom = Without restraint.


Do these people live financially without restraint? Nope, not even remotely close. It's like an 400 lb obese person wanting culture to label them "healthy."

When you're truly financially free, YOU KNOW IT.

YOU FEEL IT.

YOU LIVE IT.

NO CALCULATOR IS NEEDED.

NO RESTRAINT IS NEEDED.

When I go to a restaurant, I have no budget. I can eat and drink whatever I want. And every day.

If I want to take a first class flight to Costa Rica and spend two months there, I can.

When I go to a store, I have no budget. I can fill the shopping cart until it holds nothing more -- with whatever I want. That last time I looked at a price at a store was 20 years ago.

When I go to a car dealership, I have no budget -- if like that Lamborghini, I can buy it and three more, and pay cash for it with nothing else changing for me financially.

The word "budget" is not in my daily, weekly, or monthly vocabulary unless it relates to a multi-million-dollar house -- which is not a daily, weekly, or monthly expenditure.

My daily existence is not ruled by an authoritarian dictator known as money.

FREE from money? LOL X 1000 - NO, these poor folks are OWNED by money.

I think the question is where is the financially free line to each person? Remember it's all relative to the mindset of the person. I think I am financially free, however I can't afford a yacht or a private jet. Someone who is making $100k a year, they would look at me and say that I'm financially free. But someone with $25M probably would not.

We talk about someone sacrificing by not going to restaurants. A billionaire would talk about me sacrificing by not flying private. I think I'm ok at my current net worth level. Someone wealthier may not, they may think I'm taking my foot off the pedal too early.

I think it's all relative, but I also agree that there is a poverty point where I roll my eyes when someone tells me they are financially free. It could be someone living in a tiny home in the middle of nowhere for me, for someone else it could be someone living in a free and clear house, but has only $2k coming in a month to live.

Like MJ, I don't look at restaurant prices. I can buy many things without thinking about it. But I can't get a new Mclaren without really thinking about it.
 
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Guest-5ty5s4

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I think the question is where is the financially free line to each person? Remember it's all relative to the mindset of the person. I think I am financially free, however I can't afford a yacht or a private jet. Someone who is making $100k a year, they would look at me and say that I'm financially free. But someone with $25M probably would not.

We talk about someone sacrificing by not going to restaurants. A billionaire would talk about me sacrificing by not flying private. I think I'm ok at my current net worth level. Someone wealthier may not, they may think I'm taking my foot off the pedal too early.

I think it's all relative, but I also agree that there is a poverty point where I roll my eyes when someone tells me they are financially free. It could be someone living in a tiny home in the middle of nowhere for me, for someone else it could be someone living in a free and clear house, but has only $2k coming in a month to live.

Like MJ, I don't look at restaurant prices. I can buy many things without thinking about it. But I can't get a new Mclaren without really thinking about it.
I think this makes the most sense.

Everyone has a “budget” in some way. You can’t buy anything and everything, even if you’re Jeff Bezos.

Sure, consumer goods and experiences become virtually unlimited... But then you look at real estate and realize even the richest individual can only buy a block or two in New York City.

And don't forget stuff like spaceflight or more exotic ideas and experiences... Those are not commodities you can just "purchase," even as a billionaire. There is so much beyond financial freedom.
 
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