The death of the nuclear family

[ChickenHawk]

Interesting on the red state-blue state comparison. I've lived in a red state for a while now, but I lived in a blue state until I was almost 30. It's not just the women who tend to be more traditional in red states. The men are different too.

Generally speaking, if a guy in a blue state tells his buddies, "Hey, I can't do XYZ tonight, because I have plans with my wife," he stands a good chance of being called pussy-whipped. In a red state, the friends are much more likely to support a guy who loves and respects his wife and reinforce that view. Also, in red states there aren't nearly as many bars or clubs, and people are a lot more family-friendly.

In any event, I think it's become far too common to bash men these days. Guys aren't allowed to be guys anymore, and I don't mean sleeping around or lording themselves over women. I mean that they're not really allowed to be masculine or protective (note, I'm not saying psycho-jealous, there's a total difference.)

Here's an interesting aspect related to fiction. The alpha male characters are almost always supernatural. They're werewolves or vampires, because real men aren't allowed to be strong and protective. Personally, I think it's a shame.

 

[socaldude]

When girls cheated on me in the past I didn't take it seriously and I didn't take it personally. It was their choice and their right, it was their responsibility. I would be honest about my feelings and state my needs and professionally terminate the relationship because I want better and I COULD get better people in my life. There are millions of girls out there, all with different personalities and different values and i'm gonna get all depressed over just 1 person? Give me a break.

The older I get(i'm 21) the more of an a**hole I become(in a nice way ), the more I want to get away from depending on other people. I don't want my happiness to be dependent on very volatile external circumstances like a cheating lying girlfriend, I want all of these pleasures in life to be SECONDARY to my PRIMARY internal happiness and self esteem that is untouched by external factors.

I always think of romantic partners just like I think about business partners. Do you want a partner that lies all the time, spends the business profits on parties and drugs, is uncooperative , is immature, irresponsible?

I choose people whose VALUES closely match mine.

 

[ChickenHawk]

Here's my guess: You're dating the wrong kinds of girls. Sometimes, the ones that seem all sparkly when you first meet them aren't really quality down deep inside.

About Feminism: Even as a woman, and someone who's been very glad to see women move forward, I do agree that certain aspects of hard-core feminism have damaged the family and our country as a whole. There are far too many kids growing up without the nurturing and stability they need. But in this case, I think men and women are both to blame. We don't always focus on what's really important.

 

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[Runum]

There are too many variables to be painting relationships with a broad brush. Yes the divorce rates are very high but not all marriages end in divorce.

Several things I see from my experience. I enjoyed partying hard from 18-24. 18 was legal drinking age back then. Those girls that were partying were looking for fun too, they weren't serious. Around 24-25 I got bored and lonesome. I needed a partner, not someone I had to rescue. When I changed the pool I was fishing in and changed my attitude I met my wife. We have been together almost 30 years.

I think it's hilarious/interesting from both sides that people meet partying hard, get married, and then one of them wants to settle down and make a family. Usually the other one still wants to party. People are not projects to mold and change.

IMHO you have the wrong attitude and you are looking for a wife in the wrong pool. There are solid candidates out there that don't play the meat game at the clubs. You might try the grocery store, Starbucks, the book store, or your local elementary school(new teachers).

You night try a business meetup.com thing and network in those circles. I don't think the club scene is a healthy place to find a long term wife.

Good luck.

 

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[DennisD]

I totally understand when people say that. The thing is though, I've dated rich girls, poor girls, beautiful girls, "ugly" girls, intelligent girls, brain dead girls, extroverted girls, and introverted girls. Whether they're white, black, asian, latino, their story and "type" have never made a difference. That's not speaking from my own experience, but my own experience viewing every single relationship I have ever seen.

I think you're too close to the situation to see it clearly.
You date girls that you're into.
It just so happens that those girls, who you see as a viable option/fit for you, cheat.

It's like that one girl who keeps dating abusive drunken assholes, all her friends can see what's going to happen from the get go, but she somehow thinks it's different.

I have a friend, Lyle. 100% of the women he's attracted to turn out to be lesbians, and leave him for a woman. One drunken night he ranted about how "all girls are lesbians", blahblahblahblah. I'm like "no bro, you just dig lesbians". His experience was very narrow.. the same qualities that he finds attractive, apparently, are the qualities prominent in lesbians. You have no idea how many months it took to convince the dude that all women, deep down, weren't lesbians.

I'm 25, and I've had 4 serious relationships in my life. 4 girls I've said "I love you" to. And a few of what I call non-relationships.
None of those girls have cheated on me. The one girl who broke up with ME left me when her ex got into a car accident and she realized she still had feelings for him. Another girl continued to text her ex for an uncomfortable amount of time before we fought about it and she cut off all ties.
Not once has there even been a "close call" with a random stranger.

Incidentally, all the women I've dated have been really really smart. Creative, business minded, artistic, motivated, movers and shakers. These chicks would never go to vegas with the girls because they hate vegas.

What I get out of your situation? The chicks you're into are cheaters.
There's still hope for you, for the nuclear family, for families.

 

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[ChickenHawk]

Slightly off topic, but there's a real thought-provoking book called "The Fourth Turning." It discusses how things come and go in cycles, even though we (with our limited life-span) tend to see things as going in one direction or another. In these cycles, one of the things that changes is how gender lines are blurred.

For example, in the 1920s, gender roles were more blurred than they were in the 1930s. Think about it, the ideal woman in the 1920s had short hair and a boy-like figure. Then, curvy, feminine women came back into fashion. The line seems pretty blurred right now. After this period ends, according to this theory, there will once again emerge stronger differences between men and women.

The book was really interesting on a lot of levels. Aside from the cycles of the USA throughout its history, it also had some incredible insight on generational differences.

 

[dknise]

I'm going to attempt to relate this back to business.

Keep in mind I am 23 and the following may not apply to all demographics, but it certainly does to mine.

Some of you know that I broke it off with my girlfriend of 3 years last year because of cheating. In fact, the only girl I've ever not been cheated on by, was cheating on her boyfriend with me.

In the past year, I've had 6 micro-relationships that I ended within weeks. The last one involved a girl I was seeing for a month and I made very accurate depictions of what was going to happen. She went to Vegas with her girlfriends, I predicted she would meet someone, yell yolo, and hit the bedroom, and she would come back and lie about it, and that's EXACTLY what happened haha.

So, I went through a bit of an identity crisis. What's wrong with me? As it turns out, I don't think there is ANYTHING wrong with me. There are two common denominators in every one of the relationships I've had and witnessed, me and the female psyche. So if it's not me, it must be the female psyche.

Now I know what you're thinking, you arrogant a$$, why would you say that? Well for THE LONGEST TIME I kept blaming myself. I'm an alpha male. I'm opinionated. I go to the gym. I have lots and lots of money. I meet new girls who are interested in me constantly. I don't suck in bed haha. Every girl, including my cheating ex, comes crying back proclaiming their everlasting love and how sorry there are... So what's wrong?

I think feminism killed the nuclear family.

Do you know the percent of girls I know that idolize Marilyn Monroe? 100%. The percent that idolize Jenna Jameson and are in love with James Deen? 100%. The percent of girls I know who've cheated in a relationship (including my friends)? 100%. Just looking at statistics from askmen.com about how women feel about infidelity and cheating shows they actually believe they have a right to cheat. That's right. The girl who went to Vegas that I broke it off with began telling everyone I'm controlling and that I was telling her what to and not to do with her body. I could care less who she hooked up with in Vegas, but she was asking me for commitment, one sided commitment. She actually went on an entire rant about how it was her right to do what she wanted to in Vegas and I fully agree... but that doesn't mean I'm going to stick around a committed whipped man as I get treated like dirt. What happened when I turned around and did the same thing back (take into account I DIDN'T ask for commitment and straight forward told her there was none), all hell broke loose.

I always envisioned my life progressing forward as two people. I never envisioned myself being alone, but that's all starting to change. While men like myself created a generation where we look at ourselves as equals to women and look for true partnership in relationships, I think the vast majority of women my age are acting like your 1950's husband haha. It was wrong when the man did it and it's wrong when the woman does it.

My future now includes a sole individual progressing through life, myself.

So, what are your thoughts? Do you agree? Do you disagree?

Better yet... I'm foreseeing the death of the nuclear family. Divorce rates and infidelity rates are so incredibly high that it's virtually pointless to ever enter a relationship. The chance that I, in my demographic, will get cheated on in even a year long relationship now is what I am presuming to be 100%. SO, what new industries would pop up around the idea that long term relationships are a thing of the past? How will dating websites change? What new social clubs will pop up in a polyamorous society?


Just to clarify:
I am a REALLY really nice guy at heart. You may say I must have been an a**hole to deserve to get cheated on, but honestly, if I told you the full story (which would take hours), I think you would think the same too now. So, where am I at? I'm a socialite, I go to clubs, I have lots of friends, and I meet lots of people. When I know a girl is interested, I tell her straight up that I am not looking for commitment or a relationship. Things progress, shit goes down, girl asks for relationship, I decline, and everyone calls me an a**hole. I feel like I finally understand why "all guys are assholes." I'm not being an a**hole, I'm simply defending myself and my happiness. I've been waiting for that girl to come along and prove everything I think wrong, but I'm regretfully 100% right in my doomsday prophecies and I'm no longer waiting. If I judge my happiness based on a mythical faithful partner in life I'm going to be miserable. It's time to accept I am alone and learn to love it.

:coolgleamA:

 

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[H. Palmer]

Two quick reactions to your story.

First, it's your age. People at 23 live life to the fullest in a physical sense. When I was 23 I partied until 5 in the morning and 3 hours later I was taking notes in a college class. At 24 I had my first business in the day and drove to Amsterdam at night to party.

You don't recruit a wife from that scene. At 30 I had settled down and totally lost interest in going out. You start seeing other type of women and relationships last somewhat longer. Instead of women cheating on me I dated divorced women.

Few years later I met my wife and we've been together ever since. Frankly I think we both lost interest in the physical side of it. We both have our work and hobbies and that's it.

Second thing is this. Men and women may be equal under the law but they are not same. They are not even remotely similar in terms of psychology. What this means is that relationships between men and women can only be harmonious if they complement each other. Both have to play their own role.

This also means that relationships where both sexes try to play the same role, where both are providers with equal economic status and both are parenting and doing household work to the same extent, are doomed to fail.

It doesn't surprise me at all that in the US the rate of broken marriages in the Red states (conservative) is far lower than in the Blue states (liberal). In the end marriage is about committing to a clearly defined role. A man and a woman can complement each other or they can fight each other to exhaustion trying to be equal in everything.

 

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[DennisD]

In any event, I think it's become far too common to bash men these days. Guys aren't allowed to be guys anymore, and I don't mean sleeping around or lording themselves over women. I mean that they're not really allowed to be masculine or protective (note, I'm not saying psycho-jealous, there's a total difference.)

This is a core belief of mine about modern America.
Sad stuff.
Whenever I post a FB update that indirectly indicates/implies I serve as a protector/decision maker.
I get a handful of haters I knew from college saying that I'm "what's wrong with men today."
My girl actually jumps in and says she prefers it that way, and she's met with comments about how she's "brainwashed."

I've been saying for the past 7 months or so that there's a change brewing.
First there will be a traditional "man's man" resurgence (sometime in 2014/2015 it will be at it's strongest)
and then it will die down and (hopefully) be replaced with a 'humanist' view becoming popular.

 

[Tom.V]

I honestly believe if you look in any relationship, chances are everyone's cheating.

Perhaps if you only deal with scum. Just because you've been burned a time or two doesn't mean everyone is like that. Have a little faith in the human race, it's hard I know. But optimism goes a long way.

 

[dknise]

Here's my guess: You're dating the wrong kinds of girls. Sometimes, the ones that seem all sparkly when you first meet them aren't really quality down deep inside.

I totally understand when people say that. The thing is though, I've dated rich girls, poor girls, beautiful girls, "ugly" girls, intelligent girls, brain dead girls, extroverted girls, and introverted girls. Whether they're white, black, asian, latino, their story and "type" have never made a difference. That's not speaking from my own experience, but my own experience viewing every single relationship I have ever seen.

About Feminism: Even as a woman, and someone who's been very glad to see women move forward, I do agree that certain aspects of hard-core feminism have damaged the family and our country as a whole. There are far too many kids growing up without the nurturing and stability they need. But in this case, I think men and women are both to blame. We don't always focus on what's really important.

Agreed, but I don't think the work side of feminism has destroyed the family, it's the lack of equal respect for men. I send out love and never have it fully reciprocated, despite hearing heart felt "I love you"'s so much.



ps. I apologize if I sound angry, I am angry! There was only one thing I wanted in my life and that was a committed partner. All my entrepreneurship endeavors were for my partner and kids and I'm coping with the reality that I will probably never find that.

There are millions of girls out there, all with different personalities and different values and i'm gonna get all depressed over just 1 person?

That's just it, it's not just one person, it's every female on the planet I've ever met including my mom hahaha. I'm so depressed about it too. I've more than played the field which is why I've come to the conclusion that what I'm looking for is extremely rare.

The older I get(i'm 21) the more of an a**hole I become(in a nice way ), the more I want to get away from depending on other people. I don't want my happiness to be dependent on very volatile external circumstances like a cheating lying girlfriend, I want all of these pleasures in life to be SECONDARY to my PRIMARY internal happiness and self esteem that is untouched by external factors.

BOOM. Like reading straight from my heart haha. Your PRIMARY internal happiness that is external, I've been living life where my primary internal happiness stems from the success and happiness of my partner. Why do I seem like I'm a total a**hole now? Because I'm finally internalizing that happiness and putting myself before others. It's this external approach I've had to relationships that's caused me so much pain in my life.

I choose people whose VALUES closely match mine.

I only know a handful of people that share my values and they are men, in an all male fraternity organization. If I ever met a girl who shared those values, it would be game over haha, but this is what I'm talking about, I don't think I will ever find her.

 

[TopChef]

Things go in cycles dknise.

A lot of the things you are talking about are in the process of reversing themselves.

 

[Runum]

We are treading on the edge of dangerous waters in this thread. Go easy on the politics and religion please.

 

[Cosmicgirl]

Perhaps if you only deal with scum. Just because you've been burned a time or two doesn't mean everyone is like that. Have a little faith in the human race, it's hard I know. But optimism goes a long way.

Couldn't agree more.
To the OP - you sound massively emotionally immature, you've obviously been burnt and it has skewed you view of women as a species.
You cannot tar every woman with the same brush, that is ridiculous.
No, every woman does not cheat, don't be silly.

 

[arcola]

Couldn't agree more.
To the OP - you sound massively emotionally immature, you've obviously been burnt and it has skewed you view of women as a species.
You cannot tar every woman with the same brush, that is ridiculous.
No, every woman does not cheat, don't be silly.

Don't just ping in with your BS if you haven't read the whole thread. Women aren't saints. The facts are divorce and women infidelity is rising dramatically.

FYI 100% of the women he was mentioning did cheat...

 

[dknise]

So Cosmic, let me get your input on my latest situation:


I was out a couple weekends ago at my friends place for a very classy party, more like a cocktail party. A new friend of mine asks me to walk her to her car to get some wine, and knowing the area of Seattle I was happy to. On the walk we began talking about our views on life, what we do for work, etc etc. When we got back I noticed she was looking at me totally differently and my friends did too. If I could have written on paper the perfect girl, she's it. There were serious flirtatious vibes that everyone was picking up on. A few days later she asks me if I'd like to go on a coffee date with her to the new ferris wheel on our cities waterfront. I told her I would never be interested in such a person or time, and I was a little disgusted?

Why did I do that? Because I met her BOYFRIEND at the same time I met her. If she had broken it off with him because it just wasn't right and then we started something, that would have been amazzzinggg. But, she was actively pursuing to cheat on her boyfriend with me. My only thought is why wouldn't she do the same to me?

 

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[Tom.V]

I will never understand flame wars online. I thought this place was immune, guess not.

 

[theag]

I will never understand flame wars online. I thought this place was immune, guess not.

Maybe cosmicgirl is his disguised ex?

 

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[dknise]

Well I apologise, I was batting back at someone who said that I was a cheater. I don't know you to indirectly call you anything. Please accept my apology.

A different generation? Jeez, how old do you think I am? Hahaha

Thank you for your apology, and I apologize if I offended you in any way as well!

Well you said you've been with your partner for 16 years... so ideally it would be awesome if you were high school sweathearts and are literally livin the dream from my eyes haha. That would put you over the age of 30?

I'm 23, but most of the people I work with are in their mid-30's. The 27+ year generations don't seem to be having, or have had (when they were my age), the same experience as ALL of my friends and I are currently.

 

[Cosmicgirl]

My partner is 40, he has leukaemia. It is incureable and he has treatment to "manage it" if you can call it that. He is my world but I know that our days are numbered so to speak. I am facing the inevitable right in the face and it petrifies me. The thought of being without him makes me shake inside. We plan to marry next year.

I really do not understand people who take others for granted. Tomorrow really is a gift not a promise.

 

[Cosmicgirl]

Thanks man, life is cruel. We just have to make the most of every day and cherish the time that we do have.
I suppose we should all live like that? We all have an expiration date, just some are sooner than others.

 

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[FastLearner]

I have many male and female friends who are dating and not in long term relationships so I hear every twist and turn.

Experiencing and hearing are two different things, my friend. No offense, but we're in a different age bracket, anyone born from the mid-80's to the early 90's has a fair amount of experience with this sudden "boom" of gender mentality being reversed. The dating scene is a mess and I want no part in it, would much rather focus on my venture and worry about companionship when my life is where I want it to be.

 

[dknise]

Eh, depends on the girl man. There are different types out there, though I am fully aware of the type you are referring to. All I can say is keep the power roles in check, and you shouldn't have many problems with infidelity.

From my experience, there aren't "different types." Actually, according to the many polls done, the percentages of "successful" marriages and non-infidelity practically mirrors the Christian right here in the United States. For me it's a question then of if they actually believe what they are doing, whether they truly love the person they're with, or if it's for fear of existential consequence that they don't. I don't consider changing your actions based on fear to be genuine.

The perspective to the "power role" from my side has always been were equals. If I have to be a "I'm the man you're the woman" type of person, I'd rather be alone haha.

 

[dknise]

First, it's your age. People at 23 live life to the fullest in a physical sense. When I was 23 I partied until 5 in the morning and 3 hours later I was taking notes in a college class. At 24 I had my first business in the day and drove to Amsterdam at night to party.

Yup, we stay up till 8-9 in the morning often or even pull all nighters. If the reason my wife wants to get married is because she's getting old and needs to be responsible, that's not genuine at all. Like I said, that feels more like a pre-arranged conditional agreement based on finances and support than true love and partnership.

 

[TopChef]

Chicken hawk. This is because men in blue states have been supplanted by government programs like the welfare state. Women in these states have less of a need for men in traditional roles so they don't look for these traits in men.

This can work out just fine for blue state women just as long as our government never goes bankrupt. But that could never happen right?

 

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[dknise]

As far as red vs blue and more faithful in red, I think that falls into the correlation between religion. I do not however believe most religious people are family oriented faithful partners because its who they are, I believe they do it out of fear of fear of damnation. Its just not genuine.

 

[dknise]

I think you're too close to the situation to see it clearly.
You date girls that you're into.
It just so happens that those girls, who you see as a viable option/fit for you, cheat.

It's like that one girl who keeps dating abusive drunken assholes, all her friends can see what's going to happen from the get go, but she somehow thinks it's different.

Like I said, I've dated a lot of different types of people from different walks of life. All of them have made me form a negative outlook on the future of relationships. In addition to that, every, single, relationship, I have ever seen in my entire life between any two people, was exactly the same.

The last person that said "I've never been cheated on" was a close entrepreneur friend. I challenged him that his girlfriend probably had dirt, so within 5 minutes he opened his girl's email to prove she wasn't, typed into the search "suck dick" and found out she had infact been cheating on him for over two years. I honestly believe if you look in any relationship, chances are everyone's cheating.

God this is depressing haha.

 

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[splok]

What's wrong with me? As it turns out, I don't think there is ANYTHING wrong with me. There are two common denominators in every one of the relationships I've had and witnessed, me and the female psyche. So if it's not me, it must be the female psyche.

If you were talking to a friend who keeps getting scammed (craig's list, ebay, get rich quick stuff... whatever... I'm pretty sure we all know someone who always falls for something), and he came to the conclusion that he should never trust anyone, what would you tell him? Clearly the people who are taking advantage of him are at fault, but somehow he keeps managing to let it happen. That doesn't absolve them of blame of course, but he seems to be doing something that makes it possible. His conclusion isn't rational as shown by lots of other people in the world that have made deals where both sides were happy. Maybe he doesn't know anyone in his circle of friends that have had good deals, but that obviously doesn't mean that they don't exist.

One thing to always keep in mind is that while we can only control ourselves, we do exert certain influence that we aren't consciously aware of (for example, inadvertent communication though our body language ). Even if there are things totally outside of our influence that can affect our lives, it can be a beneficial delusion to assume that we're 100% responsible for everything that happens. Even if you're right that the problem lies entirely with the female psyche, believing that it's still somehow 100% in your control is a much more productive stance (unless you want to abandon your goal of having a happy relationship entirely).

Well for THE LONGEST TIME I kept blaming myself. I'm an alpha male. I'm opinionated. I go to the gym. I have lots and lots of money. I meet new girls who are interested in me constantly. I don't suck in bed haha. Every girl, including my cheating ex, comes crying back proclaiming their everlasting love and how sorry there are... So what's wrong?

You're assuming that all of these things are positives, and I think most men would agree. That doesn't mean that we're right though. We're not your target market, after all. However, even if most women would also agree, that doesn't mean they're right either. People are notoriously bad at really knowing what they want. Just consider the dating advice that most women give...

Consider that the very things that you think make you a great person may also be the things that attract the kind of partner that you don't want. I realize that that's really shitty to consider, but it doesn't mean that it isn't possible. That could explain why you're seeing this behavior universally too.

You say that all women that you know of behave like this, and as support you say that you've tried it with all different types of women. BUT all of those women had at least a couple of things in common: You were attracted enough to them to consider a relationship, and they were attracted enough to you to do the same.

When I know a girl is interested, I tell her straight up that I am not looking for commitment or a relationship.

I've been waiting for that girl to come along and prove everything I think wrong, but I'm regretfully 100% right in my doomsday prophecies and I'm no longer waiting.

While it may have been outside factors before, now it sounds like a totally self-fulfilling prophesy. You're never going to get a girl to prove you wrong now because your idea girl wouldn't even consider you because you tell her straight up that you're not looking for commitment or a relationship.

There was only one thing I wanted in my life and that was a committed partner.

I have no idea about your situation of course (so sorry if this is way off base, but just consider for a minute that it may not be), but this sounds very much like a number of friends that I've had over the years. From my knowledge of them, I'll speculate that this makes you a bit needy in a relationship and that that is very attractive/endearing to women at first (which is why you have no problem attracting them) but that it gets old/tiring after a while, and you end up pushing them away.

 

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[Mike Kavanagh]

I am a fan of Polyamorous relationships. IE; Open relationships, as long as safe sex is practiced.

There is nothing like being single though. I can really do whatever I want, as long as the bills are paid.

On the flip, it is nice for someone to be there to hold you accountable.

 

[zoomzoom]

I think you are right dknise, "the feminist movement" did radically change transform the way that men and woman view their relationships in general... just watch an hour of music videos and you'll see what's valued today.

That's not to say that every girl/woman has the same YOLO values and will cheat on you, there are some that don't follow the trends of culture and WILL VALUE their commitment to you.

Like I tell my kids, look at how a person (that you are interested in) respects, themselves and their family and you can predict how they will respect and value you and your relationship