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The Antiwork Movement, Lazy or Enlightened?

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Fox

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Ya, he did well there all things considered - I’d say the pressure of being live on Fox News is massive.

That presenter was super passive-aggressive also - no need to make it personal.

I want to read into the whole movement more but it seems like a bunch of people who feel something is wrong but don’t see any way forward that doesn’t feel equally as rigged.

We are super lucky on this forum to have a community that makes the path as clear as possible. But for many who haven’t been exposed to the right principles, it probably seems like stumbling around in the dark. They can feel it’s broken but can’t see anything to move towards.

Honestly, I kinda get this guy on some level. Why go work at a dead-end job for years and have zero to show for it. He likes philosophy and animals but what’s missing is a way to do that work in a fulfilling/valuable/profitable way.

With a different approach, he could have been a guy with a cool animal-based business who reads books and studies in his own free time. You can see he wants something like that but he just doesn’t grasp how to make it possible.

It’s pretty sad - just seems like a generation of people left behind from a lack of strong and caring leaders. No winners with this.
 
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ekateriv

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I reread the Sovereign Individual last week and they absolutely predicted movements like this. The truth is that the state has failed to prepare the workforce for the great unbundling that has come in this age. Everybody's expectations are lifetime employment and a defined benefits pension of mid-late 20th century which has, let's face it, been a huge anomaly in the history of civilization. This was extremely time/technology-specific and had to do with massive economies of scale in production and violence. As such large industrial complexes and the state could redistribute the income of highly productive individuals to the masses. Together with democracy it propagated the illusion that all output and skills are equal. We all know that it's just not true.

Because nowadays a lot of value can be created by a single person with an unmistakable attribution (eg. engineer writing the code), it is difficult for support functions to claim credit for their work and top earners increasingly have a very specific skillset that is gained through a highly specialized education/experiences. That leaves the rest of the population highly exposed to automatable or commodifiable tasks. As the authors of Sovereign Individual explain a job that you can learn in a day is NOT skilled. In fact, any job you can learn by going through a specific course or by attaining a generic qualification will become automated sooner or later.

There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but it absolutely doesn't align with the portrayal of how you become successful pushed by our educational institutions and media. There are in fact a ton of institutions that brainwash us into the slave lifestyle - the monthly mortgage payments, student loans, phone payment plans etc. Promotion is typically seen as success, but what it typically leads to is magnitudes more stress and time spent on making someone else rich, for marginally more money. I've seen many highly educated and high IQ people fall into this trap. It's honestly quite incredible to watch unhappy, unhealthy and stressed out people trying to convince themselves into believing that they are living the dream.

Based on these insights I am seriously considering foregoing formal education for my kids and homeschool atl east until they show interest in it themselves. There's really no point to having them grow up accustomed to 9-5 style workweek, group think and A for effort type of reward systems.
 

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With a different approach he could have been a guy with a cool animal based business who reads books and studies on his own free time. You can see he wants something like that but he just doesn’t grasp how to make it possible.
thus why we are / should / will / have / continue to leave bread crumbs. lot of people to save out there.

i like the subreddit a lot MAINLY because it is getting people to question the status quo. maybe they'll stumble on one of those breadcrumbs like i did!
 

Antifragile

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That subreddit is kind of imploding right now.
One of the mods went on Fox News and terribly represented the sub.
Video:
Comments on /r/videos talking about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/sd39qe View: https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/sd39qe/reddit_mod_gets_laughed_at_on_fox_news/


Then on /r/antiwork there were a ton of arguments and everyone was trying to get the mods removed in this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/sdb68w View: https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/sdb68w/sorry_doesnt_cut_it_mods_are_not_leaders_of_this/


EDIT: the /r/antiwork subreddit is now set to private (I'm guessing by the mods).

Maybe this is what happens when a movement gets so big with such a diverse range of opinions within it and no clear leadership.


I still had the subreddit open when they went private, here are the posts on the front page:

View attachment 41812

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This is so fascinating. The movement had a lot of merit about terrible employers, but imo it also had a lot of people that just wanted to jump on the gravy train of "eat the rich". What I found interesting was the amount of people that did not understand the concept of value and how employers make decisions about their employees. They believed that just having a college degree was valuable and not what they actually could contribute to a company.

I've been on live TV and can tell you it's F*cking stressful. The first time on national TV I mispronounced my own name! I think I died a little in that moment. Yeah, it's not easy. So I think the mod did alright.

The message clarity is missing. It's not his fault either. It's a big group with everyone thinking "anti-work" and meaning something different.

I jumped on the "hating" wagon here quick because my frame of reference was from how well we treat our employees. But then there are plenty of employers who are horrible too.

The problem is in the name. "Anti-work". It's catchy but sends the wrong message. In short, I am not sure how much better the mod could have done... or anyone else from that group.
 
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Andy Black

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They believed that just having a college degree was valuable and not what they actually could contribute to a company.
I guess they’ve been told “Get a degree and become more valuable.”
 

MJ DeMarco

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The problem is in the name. "Anti-work". It's catchy but sends the wrong message.

Anti-corporate could be better. I haven't sought a job description in decades, but some of the job descriptions are downright hilarious and utterly sad. No wonder they're pissed off.

I'm sure the average job seeker is tired reading about your corporation's "fast paced environment" lol.

In short, I am not sure how much better the mod could have done

Yea I was actually expecting a train-wreck, but it was pretty cogent.
 

ZCP

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@MJ DeMarco should sponsor them on a rebrand for 'anti script'
maybe hit up their mods and offer to put a white sticker over UN on your book and it be ANTI - SCRIPTED
 
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Tjack102

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I'm embarrassed to say I go in that sub(or used to anyway) to read/troll ridiculous posts and comments from people who don't understand why they don't get paid more simply because they exist. Honestly I have a hard time believing that who or whatever is behind those usernames are real people. You have some people who legitimately think they should be paid like 50/hr to flip burgers. I couldn't help but mess with somebody that said "janitors should be paid the same as doctors".

There's people who straight up don't wanna work and want to make art all day because they think UBI will save them. People who think landlords are "evil and do nothing but extract wealth because they didn't physically build that house", but seem to be okay with giant banks and corporations owning said house.

Then you have the, imo, reasonable people who want better treatment from employers. Complaining about unreasonable qualifications such as a master's degree for a $15/hr job. Maybe 40 hrs a week is unnecessary and outdated. They think work is fine and that landlords aren't evil and they catch hell from everyone they disagree with (I've gotten my downvotes lol).

Combine all that with all the fake texts, creative writing prompts, and brigading businesses of bad reviews and I can't see how that sub can viewed as anything but entertainment.

In a way I believe how they think is the other side of the same coin as the people around here. Who the hell wants to work 40+ years with no guarantee of retirement or until they die? Whichever comes first. They just go about it the wrong way imo. They're arguing for how they think the world "should" be. How the Government "should" be.
 
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srodrigo

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I'm embarrassed to say I go in that sub(or used to anyway) to read/troll ridiculous posts and comments from people who don't understand why they don't get paid more simply because they exist.
I managed to get permabanned within an hour with only two comments. That's what happens with you disagree with righteous entitled folks. I'm glad though, less time to waste on pointless arguments.

One folk was demanding that billionaires are "abolished" and everyone gets $1 million. Not only they think that's not crazy thieving, but they don't even stop to think that with that million they could only wipe their a$$, as they wouldn't even be able to buy food when the groceries shop owner gets their million too and close shop. Why even bother replying...

I get that maybe working 40 hours a week is a thing from the past, but nothing stops you from working less if you negotiate with your employer or go freelance. That's the only thing worth discussing, together with unrealistic work demands/conditions (and job descriptions). But I got the feeling that, no matter how much they want to sugar-coat it, most just want to do nothing all day and get paid handsomely, specially the ones with "anarcho-communist" tags.
 
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Fox

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The comments on the original video (linked in the first post) are super interesting...

Screenshot 2022-01-27 at 13.39.08.png

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This is the result of locking everyone inside for two years.

A lot of regular-type people have seen how much of a scam the system is and how little of a reward there actually is.

It will be interesting to see what happens next.
 

nothingness

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Remember when it comes to Reddit, that's the place where one of the highest upvoted communities exists to mock people who refused to be "vaxinated" from Covid then subsequently died with it.
yHwIH0q.png
 

ZF Lee

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Now it seems the folks are making an exodus to r/WorkReform

Not only does the name sound better...but the initial discussion (besides the vents on r/antiwork mod mess) is more open to learning about 'spreading the message in a better manner' and 'getting more organised'.

Too soon to see how it will go.

One thing that makes me sad was reading the discussion...some of the folks were lamenting how corporate media and the gulag would use the antiwork blowout on Fox to paint their narrative again, The narrative that this is all being lazy-- and that you shouldn't question how you get paid or build your life.
 

Antifragile

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Now it seems the folks are making an exodus to r/WorkReform

Not only does the name sound better...but the initial discussion (besides the vents on r/antiwork mod mess) is more open to learning about 'spreading the message in a better manner' and 'getting more organised'.

Too soon to see how it will go.

One thing that makes me sad was reading the discussion...some of the folks were lamenting how corporate media and the gulag would use the antiwork blowout on Fox to paint their narrative again, The narrative that this is all being lazy-- and that you shouldn't question how you get paid or build your life.
Lesson 1: stop watching Fox.
 

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Antiwork is just a stepping stone to unscripted for those with the wherewithal to improve their situation. How many people's FTE was "man, I'm getting paid like shit, yelled at daily, none of what I'm doing matters, F*ck this I'm going to start my own thing?" That's the majority of antiwork folk. Not the weird loudest 1% like the chud in that tv interview.

EDIT: the very first response in the FTE thread is @Dwight Schrute telling their employer to get F*cked because of terrible work conditions. THAT'S antiwork. The second is a person who got stuck in a snowstorm because their boss forced them to come in. THAT'S antiwork. Force in italics because while there wasn't a literal gun to their head when the alternative is saying no and then starving from getting fired...
 
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hellolin

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I've been watching this movement the last 6 - 12 months. It's absolutely fascinating to me. Especially that subreddit. A lot of people that don't understand that their pay is closely related to the value they provide their company (or provide to anyone in society). They don't understand that their skills are currently in huge supply, or not difficult to train, and that they are not particularly unique or valuable to their company. They believe they should receive certain wages just because they've "done their time" rather than because they're paid for a specific action, job or output.

At the same time, I feel very very sorry for these people. Why? Because this movement is just going to drive the demand for automation even more. As this movement continues to grow and people demand more for providing less (doing less work, getting paid more), businesses are going to be forced to turn to cheaper forms of labor. Do you know how current AI is progressing? It's insane how much better they are getting at replacing jobs. There are now companies springing up that go into big companies and automate 20-30% of their labor force. Boom, replacing swathes of people with code. As the antiwork movement grows and employers are faced with a change in the market (towards lower supply of labour) they're going to turn to cheaper forms which will be automation. The automation is coming anyway, but this movement is accelerating it, in my humble opinion.

So while these people think they're making a big change, it's going to result in a very sad situation where people will find that they have very minimal ways to add value to society (in the way we currently structure work).
Such a good reply, several points I want to add to what you said here:

"A lot of people that don't understand that their pay is closely related to the value they provide their company (or provide to anyone in society). They don't understand that their skills are currently in huge supply, or not difficult to train, and that they are not particularly unique or valuable to their company. They believe they should receive certain wages just because they've "done their time" rather than because they're paid for a specific action, job or output."

This is what our K-12 education system are drilling into people, no doubt that they live that way. If you say the opposite of what this is in today's schools, watch out for the po-po to get you.

Automation part - this is why Metaverse isn't seen as a crazy idea anymore. Someway, somehow, those soon to be forever unemployed/underemployed people have to find something to spend their time with, so the productive people of the society won't be bothered with them. VR is a perfect antidote to this problem, and Mark being the head of one of the biggest social media platform, he is well versed in observing human nature and this is basically electronic soma.

Also, I now work in a company that have a big sales floor, the AI are starting to replace them as well, such as AI lead generation, those kind of jobs are what an entry level worker that just graduated college used to do, and now that ladder is soon to be pulled. Well, I hope Metaverse can teach them those same skills then.
 

bibbysoka

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I was permanently banned from the anti work subreddit for consistently responding to people that complained about working minimum wage suggesting they find better paying jobs or learn skills to get better jobs.

I defended capitalism and moderators messaged me saying antiwork is completely anti capitalist and it is in their side bar.

The subreddit is growing insanely fast because there is some truth to it: a lot of employers are a$$, and a lot of people do grunt work, have to pickup shifts with no control of their schedules, high stress shitty quality of life and low pay.

However most on that subreddit use it as a complain fest, and shun entrepreneurs and anyone who believes they can create a business or provide value in the form of creating something special. Most of them believe that the world should be fundamentally different but have no actual ideas on how to do things differently and how to implement those things.

I feel like this forum is a totally, totally different place from that subreddit and I feel like Millionaire Fastlane and Unscripted are literally MEANT for those types of people who don’t realize they will always be stuck in that mentality. You’re not going to destroy capitalism in my opinion, so don’t even try.
 

hellolin

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I find it hard to believe that every staff member was a student, including management. I think the key sentence in that image is "...the owners...never once helping us out".
If I pay someone to wait tables, am I expected to come and do their job for them too?
The truth is the bottom part of the US labor market is about to become the same as some EU countries - expensive, but with lower quality. The amount of those jobs will decrease overtime, opportunities to advance will be less, welfare spending to keep them at bay will increase, which means eventually the US will reach the welfare spending levels of those EU countries.Attach files
 

hellolin

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I was permanently banned from the anti work subreddit for consistently responding to people that complained about working minimum wage suggesting they find better paying jobs or learn skills to get better jobs.

I defended capitalism and moderators messaged me saying antiwork is completely anti capitalist and it is in their side bar.

The subreddit is growing insanely fast because there is some truth to it: a lot of employers are a$$, and a lot of people do grunt work, have to pickup shifts with no control of their schedules, high stress shitty quality of life and low pay.

However most on that subreddit use it as a complain fest, and shun entrepreneurs and anyone who believes they can create a business or provide value in the form of creating something special. Most of them believe that the world should be fundamentally different but have no actual ideas on how to do things differently and how to implement those things.

I feel like this forum is a totally, totally different place from that subreddit and I feel like Millionaire Fastlane and Unscripted are literally MEANT for those types of people who don’t realize they will always be stuck in that mentality. You’re not going to destroy capitalism in my opinion, so don’t even try.
The low hanging fruits of the society are all gone, those people are not raised to do the work required today, yet they expect easy work with a lot pay. Everyone, whether from the left or right, are expecting a 1950's easy work arrangement to pop up again, not blaming them, this is what K-12 education raised them to believe in.
 
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Antifragile

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This is a complex issue. And I’m grateful to not be a part of that reality.

No place if perfect, but at least here, at the FLF we are all focused on being productive. On solving our challenges and creating opportunities for others. That’s how businesses are born.

I don’t have a solution for all those anti-work Reddit people, but I do want to say a big thanks to all you here who push me to be a better version of me. We are in large part a product of our environment.
 

MJ DeMarco

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I'm a bit late on this, but wanted to address the movement...

View: https://youtu.be/1zouvwHDLU0


TRANSCRIPT

Hello my fellow Fastlaner’s, just want to start by saying thank you, my YouTube channel just recently topped 50,000 subscribers, so if you subscribed, thanks for trusting me with your time, and if you haven’t subscribed and you have an interest in financial freedom, the type of financial freedom that does not involve regimented saving, stock market patience, and frugal budgets, please hit that subscribe button.

So if you hang out at my forum, there’s a thread there about this new movement that has surfaced on Reddit called the “anti-work movement.” It’s a pretty active discussion, there’s already over 100 comments on it, so if you’re interested in adding your thoughts there, I’ll post that link in the video description below.

Now If you haven’t heard of the “anti-work” movement, on the surface, it sounds like a bunch of quasi communists, ya know, lazy young people who don’t want to get jobs, they want to sit home all day and finger-paint or play video games.

While the movement does appear to have some of these freeloader types, surprisingly the main ideology of the group appears to be a rebellion against the big corporate systems that run the economy, or specifically, something I wrote about over 10 years ago called The Script, which by design, promotes a Slowlane way of living, ya know, spend a fortune on college degree, get a job, work 5 days a week, save your money, invest in the stock market, buy a house, then retire at 65, the good American Dream.

Unfortunately, people are now discovering that the Slowlane is no longer a guarantee, and instead I’d argue, a high probability bet of misery, mediocrity, and meaninglessness.

Millions of college graduates have discovered that if you spent six figures and five-years on a college degree, that there is NO six-figure job waiting for you after graduation —
and instead what they all found was an entry-level, meaningless job from an over-demanding employer that barely paid $40,000 and sucked the life out of ya.

I mean if you read some of these job descriptions from these employers, some of them are just so ridiculous it infuriates me…

Gee, you want 10 years experience and that will give me the privilege of your 50K a year job in your “face paced environment” (which lets face it, means : overworked)…

Oh yes, your job offer mentions that I can enjoy “remote work benefits” which likely translates into “be on call 7 days a week”
and of course my favorite, “competitive salary” which we know as just a corporate whitewashing for “we pay just as bad, or worse, then other companies in this field.”

So what these job-seekers are left with is this feeling of hopelessness and “why bother?”

Why should I work, or trade 5 days a week for the rest of my life, when it’s clear it won’t win me my freedom or happiness, and even lessor, there’s no guarantee that it will even earn me a comfortable retirement.

In short, it appears that the people in this anti-work movement have finally figured out through either their own experience, or after watching their parents struggle in the “work-consume-save-retire paradigm”, that the Script that their culture has sold them, and continues to sell them, DOES NOT WORK.

Moreover, the rampant inflation that we are experiencing right now, is putting the Script and its futility in the spotlight, where its existence is no longer a secret reserved to only those who were fortunate to read one of my books in the last 10 years.

For instance, I had someone join my forum the other day who said he wanted to become a millionaire within ten years … well I’ve got bad news for you, a million bucks 10 years from today ain’t gonna be worth jack-shit, or as I wrote in the 10th anniversary edition of TMF , a “millionaire” is now about as impressive as a used Toyota Camry.

Anyhow, going back to the anti-work movement, surprisingly, I don’t have a problem with it, because I know of no one more “anti-work” than me!

It’s the cornerstone of my The Fastlane philosophy, to create a business system based on relative value so work ultimately, work becomes optional.

But the thing is, I’ve worked my a$$ off for years so now I have the privilege of being “anti-work” minus the 1 bedroom apartment, minus the budgets, and minus the rusty truck with 200,000 miles.

Now don’t get me wrong, I still WORK by all measures of the definition — but it doesn’t feel like work. The last time I felt like I actually worked, George Bush was president.

So if the anti-work movement resonates with you, congratulations on finally discovering the that system is rigged for your lifetime enslavement, either as a consumer of material goods or entertainment vices, or as a Wall Street savings slave who plans to invest every dollar she earns into the stock market, in effect, funding the companies who support the consumption paradigm.

However, the answer to actually living an “anti-work” existence is not found in posting on Reddit, the answer is not found in tweeting “tax the rich” or voting for some politician, the answer is to change yourself.

I’m telling you, one way to guarantee yourself a lifetime of misery, is to resist, or fight things you cannot change.

Face it, your rantings on Reddit aren’t going to change human behavior, you’re not going to change how large corporations operate, and being pissed off and angry how these things treat you is like being pissed off that you can’t change the weather.

Instead, change what you can change — and that is how you interact with this system— instead of playing the game they want you to play, work to serve the game, and once you do, you can be the impetus for changing the system.

There’s an old proverb that says to be the change you want to see.

Instead of looking for a job with one of these thankless, soulless corporations, start your own CENTS-based, Fastlane business, a business that is not only designed to free you from meaningless work-save-repeat tyranny, but a business that can actually give you financial freedom while making this “anti-work” dream an future possibility.

Think about that.

Instead of blindly accepting the outdated, slave-based economic paradigm that your family, your government and your educational institutions are brainwashing you to accept, be the maverick and say, “hell no, I’m not going to play that game, and my solution to this antiquated work-slave system is not going to be a bitch and moan session on Reddit,

instead, I’m going to start a business that not only will pay me what I’m worth, often more in one month than I could earn all year at a job, but this business will force me to grow personally, it will give my life purpose and meaning by adding value to society, and most importantly, when it comes time to hire employees, I won’t treat them like dogshit, and I will pay them a meaningful wage.

Be the change you want to see, and you’ll change your life. And who knows, you might be able to change the world.

I’m MJ DeMarco, and if your looking to start a business, give your life meaning and purpose, and ultimately, live an “anti-work” existence, you can pick up any one of my books on Amazon usually for less than $20 bucks, and as always, if you pick up one of my books either because you bought it or stole it on the torrents, there’s nothing more to buy before, during, or after. I offer no upsells, no sales funnels, no coaching programs, and no big ticket seminars because ultimately, learning how to make a fortune, should never cost a fortune.
 

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I'm a bit late on this, but wanted to address the movement...

View: https://youtu.be/1zouvwHDLU0


TRANSCRIPT
Thanks MJ for the post! Good to even have transcripts haha to read.

Hope the r/WorkReform folks also get word of this, after the exodus from the r/antiwork interview backlash. I found that the r/WorkReform folks were more reasonable somehow on first glance...all about renegotiating better job terms, filtering out better employers and unions.
 
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doster.zach

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Oct 14, 2021
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"
I've not the fortune of having a wfh job, however I stand with everyone that does. F*ck returning to the office, fight for your right to work from home!
"

Working from home is now a right according to some people in the subreddit.

I'm all for people working from home in jobs where there is no reason for a commute, but it's so silly to call things rights that are not rights.
 

WJK

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Oct 9, 2017
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Alaska
"
I've not the fortune of having a wfh job, however I stand with everyone that does. f*ck returning to the office, fight for your right to work from home!
"

Working from home is now a right according to some people in the subreddit.

I'm all for people working from home in jobs where there is no reason for a commute, but it's so silly to call things rights that are not rights.
You obviously haven't or don't own a business, nor have employees...
 
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doster.zach

Bronze Contributor
FASTLANE INSIDER
Read Rat-Race Escape!
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Speedway Pass
Oct 14, 2021
243
374
Columbia MO
You obviously haven't or don't own a business, nor have employees...

Haha true! It's not one of my strongest beliefs and I'm not sure if it's the correct thing to do.

And I understand its a double edge sword for employees.
- You have more leeway, but that means your employer will probably implement standards to be more rigorous because to hold people accountable.

And that's why I prefaced it with "where there is no reason for a commute".
 

WJK

Legendary Contributor
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Oct 9, 2017
2,530
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Alaska
Haha true! It's not one of my strongest beliefs and I'm not sure if it's the correct thing to do.

And I understand its a double edge sword for employees.
- You have more leeway, but that means your employer will probably implement standards to be more rigorous because to hold people accountable.

And that's why I prefaced it with "where there is no reason for a commute".
Yes, a lot of work can be done from home -- I've proven that in my businesses for years and years. I just wonder what is going to happen to all of these people who are changing jobs. We're talking about employees -- not entrepreneurs. What are going to think about their decision in 20 years -- or heck -- how about next year????

To use some metaphors:
The dust will settles.
The initial blush will wear off.
The new become the same old thing in no time flat.
These career moves have slicked down their wild hair for the moment. It will kick up again.
 

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