Should I learn copywriting?

[Andy Black]

Rule number one of copywriting, marketing, and sales?

Feed a starving crowd.

If you write some copy and no-one sees it then did you even write copy?


My advice for people who want to help people with copywriting (note I didn’t say “learn” copywriting):

Run paid search campaigns on Google.

Get the right people to the right offer at the right time.

Focus on keywords that indicate searchers are in the starving crowd.

Write relevant, eye catching, and compelling ads to appeal to the starving crowd.

Create a simple landing page that directs the starving crowd to take an action they want to take.

Tada!

You’re writing copy, with the aim of helping people *and* getting profitable (since you’re spending money each day).

More importantly, you're creating copy where it will be seen and where you’ll get real-time market feedback - which you need so you can iterate and improve.

Plus you’re limited to very few characters with Google Ads - which stops you writing too much.



Or you could have a goal to “learn” copywriting and become a student/consumer instead. There’s many books to study. Many courses to take. Maybe even certifications to pick up.

Just be aware “the market doesn’t pay for input” (Blaise Brosnan)


Get your goal right:

• MINDSET - Clarity of Purpose

 

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[Ed Schimmel]

This is not entirely true, but I guess the flipside is only limited to a top% of copywriters. You can create banger offers that become the control for some product or business and negotiate royalties based on gross sales or other forms of revenue-sharing.

A-list copywriters pretty much all have a portfolio of offers that generate continuous passive income (I've had a couple sales letters that held on for a few months) which can turn a 4 figure project into a 6 figure project with the same amount of hourly investment. I'd say about 10-15% of offers can fit that bill if you're adequately skilled.

With 20-30h investment per offer, if you do at least one per month, you can exceed $1k/hr average through royalties within a year or two. And once you've proven that and accrued some cashola, you can create your own products and sell those to get 80% profit margins instead of 3% royalties. In perpetuity and using other people's time/money.

You also get to build a ton of other skills on this journey that you can use to build a proper info-based business or amplify other businesses you can buy into.

I'd say the copywriting path is way more fastlane than software development, because the skills you need are tangential and complementary. With software you have to build multiple pillars of ability so to say in order to truly go fastlane, in my opinion. And I say that having started with a programming/engineering background and trying to build SaaS solutions 9 years ago or something. Copywriting is a lot more reliable, but takes longer to go passive and you can't really delegate the vertical as easily/cheaply.

Going passive right off the bat without the skills to build a solid team and manage an enterprise is quite tricky. I've failed multiple times at it. Maybe it's because I went way too hard on the Lean approach hm.

I hadn't thought about the possibility to write and sell 'standard' letters. That indeed changes things. Making and selling a SaaS product is indeed not easy. I am working on one for a few years now and have to do the marketing, which I realize will be a lot more difficult for me.

 

[Ed Schimmel]

Does this product sell itself?

Unfortunately not. But copy-writing skills don't sell themselves either.

There is always work involved, but less, once a SaaS product is running. I didn't take into account the possibility to write and sell standard copy/letters that is prepared beforehand, as Speed112 mentioned. That might change things in favor of copy-writing.

 

[klaipeda]

I've been in the software for the last 20 years, and I'm still working as a developer. This skill let me make some money to sustain my family (I have a wife and three kids). I'm working on my startup, and I built all the software on my own. To do that, I used the skill I have and the tools I know. The value of what I did so far in terms of code could cost easily two devs three months full time. Here in Australia, it could cost an estimate of ~100k AUD (~70k USD).

Now I need a copywriter, and after a lot of research, I found someone who can help me launch the MVP with the right foot. I'm not a copywriter. English's not my native language; therefore, I prefer to delegate.

What I didn't delegate is the development of the idea, the research over the competitors, the creation of the brand, and my business's identity. That is something that you cannot delegate. The takeaway here: you must learn how marketing works.

In other terms, being professional in coding can help a lot. I would not start to learn copywriting because it would be an excessive expenditure of energy while I already did my part, putting my skills on the plate.

In your position, I would continue with the development skills. The seniority level would require at least other 2-3 years. The skill you'll learn will help you create more businesses in the future.

Note: I'm doing a business, but I didn't create a profitable one yet, so that I could be wrong here. I share with you my humble opinions as a developer that is fighting hard to escape the rat race

 

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[kebman]

Thanks for the detailed response. I'm basically asking because I'm juggling what skill to commit myself to. I DO NOT intend to make copywriting or programming my career but just use it as a way to gain side income and now that I think about it I guess build up my network as well. I'm 17 and have been learning coding for just under a year and a half but I started to question it because i don't truly have a passion for it and because to be deeply honest I don't know if I want to step up to that next level to start earning actual decent income but I'm not fully sure on that feeling yet. So basically here's a rundown, I've been learning frontend for just under a year and a half and am starting to doubt it, Copywriting seems to me to match my traits and skills and something I could do pretty well in. Someone also recommended backend development to me but I haven't looked into that yet.

If you hate progging then copywriting might do you good, especially if you step up your game and start to juggle. But why stop there, when you can also learn how to shoot video and record good audio. It's the natural extension of copywriting. See it all starts with writing a good script, but the way to really get out to the masses is through video and audio. But you have to keep up the pace, and mass produce the output. For that you need more people. And bigger contracts. I think you can do this!
Now let's take this one step further. Can you get access to GPT3? Why write articles, when you can have AI do it for you? Just clean it up and give it a human eyeball before you send the bill.

 

[kebman]

This is not entirely true, but I guess the flipside is only limited to a top% of copywriters. You can create banger offers that become the control for some product or business and negotiate royalties based on gross sales or other forms of revenue-sharing.

A-list copywriters pretty much all have a portfolio of offers that generate continuous passive income (I've had a couple sales letters that held on for a few months) which can turn a 4 figure project into a 6 figure project with the same amount of hourly investment. I'd say about 10-15% of offers can fit that bill if you're adequately skilled.

With 20-30h investment per offer, if you do at least one per month, you can exceed $1k/hr average through royalties within a year or two. And once you've proven that and accrued some cashola, you can create your own products and sell those to get 80% profit margins instead of 3% royalties. In perpetuity and using other people's time/money.

You also get to build a ton of other skills on this journey that you can use to build a proper info-based business or amplify other businesses you can buy into.

I'd say the copywriting path is way more fastlane than software development, because the skills you need are tangential and complementary. With software you have to build multiple pillars of ability so to say in order to truly go fastlane, in my opinion. And I say that having started with a programming/engineering background and trying to build SaaS solutions 9 years ago or something. Copywriting is a lot more reliable, but takes longer to go passive and you can't really delegate the vertical as easily/cheaply.

Going passive right off the bat without the skills to build a solid team and manage an enterprise is quite tricky. I've failed multiple times at it. Maybe it's because I went way too hard on the Lean approach hm.

IMHO going passive a.k.a. "juggling" within copywriting is not passive. It's anything but. You have to constantly look for more writers. Then you have to make sure they're good enough by making them send you tests. Then you actually have to read those tests. Then you have to edit them and send them feedback to improve them, etc, etc, etc. It was this chore that burnt out my buddy. But I saw something in it myself. I saw the possibility of starting my own company, with a team of vetted and skilled copywriters. So I encouraged him to do it, while I was busy with other things. But he didn't want to. And I didn't want to step on his toes, also I was busy with other things. I know it's kind of an excuse, but that's how it was. If he continued, and I had the balls, I'd have asked to take over his portfolio of writers, and gone off myself, but it's too late now. Anyhoo, the writers you get in, even if they quit on you, you've still made a contact. That contact goes into your portfolio of vetted writers. This is the starting point of a good juggle, that you can then take into your own company. Then the most difficult part is finding an administrator who both knows administrating, who wants to do it cheaply (because he doesn't know better - sorry it's the truth), and who also knows editing and some HR, so you can go completely passive. Even if you get there, you'll still have to keep tabs on things, and create a system that keeps things in check and pays for itself. And you're still responsible for getting new contracts. I doubt you could find someone willing to do that for you, or cheaply. Just a few notes on "going passive" with copywriting. Break a pen!

 

[st.julian]

Hey guys,

I'm 17 and have been learning coding for just over a year now (see my first post) but recently came across copywriting that I think I'd be far better off learning and dedicating my time to to ultimately use as a profitable skill. As far as I understand, copywriting is essentially writing out text in a way that sells or advertises well. I think I'd be better suited for this as writing in a verbose tone has always been a pretty great talent of mine. I excel in these types of subjects at school. Should I build on this talent and dedicate myself to getting skilled in copywriting? Thank you for any responses or comments.

Late to the conversation…you’re 17, try anything that interests you. You won’t know until you try. The wisdom that says bc you’ve been coding for a year, don’t jump into something different…why not? Good luck and keep going.

 

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[st.julian]

This is true, without sales there is no business. At the same time, I think the skill of generating awareness at scale may be even more important. Many products and services these days sell without any “sales” in the traditional sense. Gary Vee, for example, built a $200M company on marketing, not sales. Grant Cardone built his entire “sales training” empire on pure marketing. Joe Rogan, and so on.

To a certain extent, sales is on the way out, as more and more people buy through inbound forms of marketing. They don’t need to be sold, they make the decision themselves.

Respectfully, marketing is NOT how GC built his business. He built his business through sales - knocking on doors and cold calling. 1000% without a doubt. No two ways about that. You and I now both know him today because of marketing. Which he discovered after he already had traction and mastered sales. Speaking of sales, it’s definitely not on the way out.

 

[Speed112]

IMHO going passive a.k.a. "juggling" within copywriting is not passive. It's anything but. You have to constantly look for more writers. Then you have to make sure they're good enough by making them send you tests. Then you actually have to read those tests. Then you have to edit them and send them feedback to improve them, etc, etc, etc. It was this chore that burnt out my buddy. But I saw something in it myself. I saw the possibility of starting my own company, with a team of vetted and skilled copywriters. So I encouraged him to do it, while I was busy with other things. But he didn't want to. And I didn't want to step on his toes, also I was busy with other things. I know it's kind of an excuse, but that's how it was. If he continued, and I had the balls, I'd have asked to take over his portfolio of writers, and gone off myself, but it's too late now. Anyhoo, the writers you get in, even if they quit on you, you've still made a contact. That contact goes into your portfolio of vetted writers. This is the starting point of a good juggle, that you can then take into your own company. Then the most difficult part is finding an administrator who both knows administrating, who wants to do it cheaply (because he doesn't know better - sorry it's the truth), and who also knows editing and some HR, so you can go completely passive. Even if you get there, you'll still have to keep tabs on things, and create a system that keeps things in check and pays for itself. And you're still responsible for getting new contracts. I doubt you could find someone willing to do that for you, or cheaply. Just a few notes on "going passive" with copywriting. Break a pen!

Not sure why you replied to me in regards to juggling, since I didn't talk about that at all. Juggling = being a manager with copywriting experience =/= being a copywriter. I was talking about high quality offers that generate long-term royalties.

Having cash flow while you sleep = passive. Managing a workforce is anything but. Obviously.

Respectfully, marketing is NOT how GC built his business. He built his business through sales - knocking on doors and cold calling. 1000% without a doubt. No two ways about that. You and I now both know him today because of marketing. Which he discovered after he already had traction and mastered sales. Speaking of sales, it’s definitely not on the way out.

Whenever I see GC and Sales next to each other...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVXK74k_FNw

 

[Oso]

Hey guys,

I'm 17 and have been learning coding for just over a year now (see my first post) but recently came across copywriting that I think I'd be far better off learning and dedicating my time to to ultimately use as a profitable skill. As far as I understand, copywriting is essentially writing out text in a way that sells or advertises well. I think I'd be better suited for this as writing in a verbose tone has always been a pretty great talent of mine. I excel in these types of subjects at school. Should I build on this talent and dedicate myself to getting skilled in copywriting? Thank you for any responses or comment

Hey!

New member, but I'd like to toss my input, specifically from the coding/dev side. I'm a full-stack dev, doing web design and development on the side while in school. I would say 100% stick to coding (as you've already put 1 year into it and if you CAN code, you'll never really worry about money).

Copywriting is also 100% worth it. I've been personally educating myself on copywriting as I've learned developing (if you're the developer) and copywriting go hand-in-hand. It's difficult to deliver results to a client without some form of marketing/copywriting/etc.

As a final comment, I'd be more than happy to help you from the dev standpoint, should you ever need/want it (for free, of course -- I enjoy helping fellow developers). I'll leave the copywriting, marketing, etc. to people more qualified/experienced!

TL;DR: keep up the coding because realistically, you'll learn as you progress, and assuming you're the dev, you'll inevitably encounter a time where you need some form of understanding/experience with copywriting (marketing, etc.) in order to generate legitimate results for your clients (well, I had to, anyway).

P.S. If you DO continue with the coding/dev work, I encourage you to learn about smart contracts, NFTs, crypto, blockchain development, etc. Promise you, it's worth it.

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

Respectfully, marketing is NOT how GC built his business. He built his business through sales - knocking on doors and cold calling. 1000% without a doubt. No two ways about that. You and I now both know him today because of marketing. Which he discovered after he already had traction and mastered sales. Speaking of sales, it’s definitely not on the way out.

GC was basically broke back when he was building his sales training business mainly through sales. He may have had a net worth of a couple of millions, but that’s it. He didn’t have hundreads of millions.

What allowed him to build a net worth of hundreads of millions is discovering marketing. When he started putting out content and building a following on social media, THAT’s when he started truly getting rich. You can say that he tried selling for 50 years with mediocre results, and marketing for 10 with explosive results.

Marketing makes sales easy. If you market well, then you’re putting yourself in front of your target buyers and you’re providing value. It’s only a matter of time before they buy.

 

[kebman]

I was talking about high quality offers that generate long-term royalties.

Having cash flow while you sleep = passive. Managing a workforce is anything but. Obviously.

Sorry, not a jab at you. Your post merely inspired me.

How easy is it to get those high quality offers? I saw you said something about top-tier copywriter. Is it worthwhile aiming for, say, compared to how "easy" it is to become an above average earning coder? And how do you get those high quality offers? Who do you call?

Also, do you know how well it compares to writing a book and self-publishing it (also relatively passive once you get it out there)? Say, "How To Ace Obscure Test X" or "How To Become X Profession," etc?

I guess I like the not-so-passive route, because once you have a company up and going, if the cashflow allows it, you can hire people to ease off your burden 4HWW-style. But yes, there's also up-front work in starting a company. Potentially a lot of up-front work. OTOH the upside of owning a cash-flowing company is pretty dang good, though. So that's one reason for doing it. IDK the other might be that it just feels good to be the baws xD

 

[Speed112]

Sorry, not a jab at you. Your post merely inspired me.

How easy is it to get those high quality offers? I saw you said something about top-tier copywriter. Is it worthwhile aiming for, say, compared to how "easy" it is to become an above average earning coder? And how do you get those high quality offers? Who do you call?

Also, do you know how well it compares to writing a book and self-publishing it (also relatively passive once you get it out there)? Say, "How To Ace Obscure Test X" or "How To Become X Profession," etc?

I guess I like the not-so-passive route, because once you have a company up and going, if the cashflow allows it, you can hire people to ease off your burden 4HWW-style. But yes, there's also up-front work in starting a company. Potentially a lot of up-front work. OTOH the upside of owning a cash-flowing company is pretty dang good, though. So that's one reason for doing it. IDK the other might be that it just feels good to be the baws xD

I don't know how easy it is... An above-average earning coder works full-time and makes low 6 figures a year?

An above-average earning copywriter can make the same part-time imo.

Self-publishing is no longer a viable avenue for passive income unless you use it to leverage other higher margin or higher perceived value things, such as courses or physical goods. I wouldn't recommend writing full-time unless you do erotic fiction or something or are at Stephen King level. Non-fiction kinda sucks now.

You don't need to be a top-tier copywriter to get hired to write high quality offers. You just need to be decent and put in the work. Finance, crypto, fitness, etc. are all niches full of publishers hungry for new angles and people churning out offers.

Depending on how good you are, you can make $2k, $3k, $5k, even $10k for a single offer through just the retainer. But you need to be top-tier for those offers to beat the control or to be profitable enough to run for extended periods of time and accrue significant royalties. A top-tier copywriter nails around 10-15% of offers. So you'd make $50k in a year from just writing 20-30h a month on some offer, and then $100-200k extra in royalties on the one that lands.

An "above-average" copywriter can churn out 3 offers a month working 4h a day and make mid 6 figures a year with a couple of passive streams from the occasional banger. It's not passive though, just like how programming isn't.

But the two are very similar in the sense of... you could have your own product and write an offer for that, or sell as an affiliate, and build passive streams like a programmer could build iOS apps or SaaS solutions.

I think the skillsets are different enough for the difficulty to not be comparable. It should be a factor of supply and demand, and there's plenty of demand for both, so I'd say they're both easy enough... if you're willing to put in the work and talk to the right people.

Who are those people? In the case of direct response copywriting... the guys who spend a ton of money on ads.

So turn off your adblocker, find the ads that are on the top and running profitably in the niche you want to write in, follow through the offer (like the one you will be writing) and get all the way to the company that put it out there. Usually some publishing company. If they're paying for ads, they've got money. Find their email. Find their office. Find the people who are in charge. Send them proof that you are fit to write for them... and they'll talk.

It's not that hard. You can also try regular recruitment channels (they're always hiring) but you give up a ton of leverage when you go through some HR gatekeeper.

I've done this a few times over the years, but not recently. It works quickly and efficiently if you know how to write killer proposals (which you should if you're applying for a copywriting gig) and I doubt much has changed since last time I tried it.

Your job as a copywriter, or as a programmer, or as an entrepreneur or whatever... it's all the same: you solve problems.

The bigger the problem, the more impact solving it has, the more money you make. Getting people to buy your stuff tends to be a pretty big problem that everyone always has.

Hope this helps.

 

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