Self-Empathy vs Mental Toughness - Which One Do You Find More Useful?

[Lex DeVille]

It seems to me there are two main schools of self-development.

One is closely aligned with spirituality, self-empathy, self-understanding, kindness, etc. If, for example, you're struggling to lose weight, you seek internal psychological reasons why. You try to understand yourself without making yourself feel bad as self-kindness is a big aspect of this school of thought. The goal is to pursue goals in an "enlightened" way, honoring your limitations, not being overly harsh with yourself, exhibiting inner peace, etc. Examples: Eckhart Tolle, Don Miguel Ruiz.

The second school of self-development is all about mental toughness. If you're struggling to lose weight, you don't rationalize your failures by looking for hidden past trauma. You simply tell yourself you're a b***** and keep pushing until you get what you're after. The goal is to get strong and then get stronger so that nothing breaks you. You don't use any of your weaknesses as excuses. You adapt and keep going no matter what. Examples: David Goggins, Jocko Willink.

Do you believe in self-empathy? Or do you believe it's BS and it's all about mental toughness?

Note that I'm NOT asking about your religious views. I'm asking if you think that self-empathy can be useful or if people use it as an excuse to avoid the hard work.

@Lex DeVille, I'm interested in your thoughts given your experience with the world of psychology.

I like a combination of approaches. I like to accept myself as I am, in this moment, while acknowledging that I can become however I want to be in the next with a choice followed by action. So if I let myself go sometimes, that can be okay because I know I can choose to change anytime I want.

I think this approach works well for me because I have a history of proving that I can create that change. That part may be particularly important, because if I didn't have that history, how would I know I could succeed? Before I built up a history of that habit, all I had were the successes of others (fitness, business, school) as proof of what was possible. So I had to build from that at first.

The things I think are most important now might be:

1. Ownership.
Ownership being either the choice to accept yourself so you don't have to hate yourself, or it can mean accepting that you are responsible for change and acting on the change when you want something different.

2. Willpower
The kind that is developed over time by testing yourself in different ways and pushing beyond your limits, even when that means through a process of self-acceptance. I mentioned letting go of expectations in your INSIDERS thread. That was an area where I had to apply will to let go, which is different from applying will to push through (as in pushing through for another 10 pushups).

3. Openness to Change
This is like Ray Dalio's idea of radical open-mindedness and adaptability. By accepting that change is inevitable, and being open to flowing with that change, and letting go of expectations, and accepting that things are how they are and that I am responsible for feeling bad or good or any other way, then it all kind of comes together as a life approach that has been working pretty well for me.

 

[MTF]

It seems to me there are two main schools of self-development.

One is closely aligned with spirituality, self-empathy, self-understanding, kindness, etc. If, for example, you're struggling to lose weight, you seek internal psychological reasons why. You try to understand yourself without making yourself feel bad as self-kindness is a big aspect of this school of thought. The goal is to pursue goals in an "enlightened" way, honoring your limitations, not being overly harsh with yourself, exhibiting inner peace, etc. Examples: Eckhart Tolle, Don Miguel Ruiz.

The second school of self-development is all about mental toughness. If you're struggling to lose weight, you don't rationalize your failures by looking for hidden past trauma. You simply tell yourself you're a b***** and keep pushing until you get what you're after. The goal is to get strong and then get stronger so that nothing breaks you. You don't use any of your weaknesses as excuses. You adapt and keep going no matter what. Examples: David Goggins, Jocko Willink.

Do you believe in self-empathy? Or do you believe it's BS and it's all about mental toughness?

Note that I'm NOT asking about your religious views. I'm asking if you think that self-empathy can be useful or if people use it as an excuse to avoid the hard work.

@Lex DeVille, I'm interested in your thoughts given your experience with the world of psychology.

 

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[Mutant]

It may seem like a cop-out answer, but I think whichever side you tend to is probably best tempered by at least some of the other.

In your example, the overweight person with a tendency to self-empathy might realise they're eating emotionally, & do therapy for a year & have a breakthrough & stop needing to emotionally eat, but frankly, they could probably also use a little kick or three to be adopting healthier habits whilst they're doing the therapy (because their health will not always wait patiently).

However whilst the strict "never break" people might get faster weight loss (if they're good at sticking to it & not just beating themselves up) they might not ever get to enjoy a doughnut again. As to them that's breaking, (Jocko's "sugar-coated lies" anyone?) but to the person who no longer feels the need to stuff a dozen in their mouths at moments of high emotion, might now be able to enjoy it for what it is - an occasional treat. And mental breakthroughs in one area can also unlock others.

I have a tendency towards the latter - the "failure is not an option & excuses are not tolerated" - with myself at least - I'm much more kind & empathic with others. But the dark side of that is it can devolve into a lot of negative self-talk if you're failing in any way to meet your own standards, which funnily enough doesn't always help. I have had to incorporate a bit of self-empathy to achieve more & feel better.

My consumption of self-help/motivational materials tends to reflect this these days - more discipline/blunt talk, but with a side of nurturing. To be honest, I think that's also a fairly good broad description of this forum, which is why I feel I fit in here. It also probably explains to a degree the gender ratios here too.

 

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[Fid]

Gary Vee is a great example of a manic-depressive personality type (and a "mental toughness" guy). What we see are his mania periods, when he hustles-hustles-hustles. What we don't get to see are his depressive episodes when he's not that motivated or tough.

That's just human nature.

Ignoring your feelings and forcing yourself can only get you so far. It may work for some less sensitive personality types for some time, but for me, it always strikes back in one way or another.

To "get strong and then get stronger so that nothing breaks me" I needed to look within myself and love and accept myself as I am, with my strengths and weaknesses. That's what I see as the true toughness.

 

[Kak]

I tend to favor the "no excuses" side of the spectrum. After discovering the importance of locus of control's effect on one's success, it really finalized that for me. Excuses suck.

This is not to say I won't have self empathy...

For instance, with being out of shape... It has been a long journey here, to build a habit that has stuck and will continue to improve my life long term. I am now going to the gym daily. I'm not where I want to be, but I am still in the best shape of my life. I can both want more for myself and also be happy to be here vs where I was. There is no excuse in being right there, in that spot. Until...

Saying this is just a process and I need to "give it time" to really get where I want, while simultaneously eating candy on the couch... That is when it becomes an excuse.

The same can be said about failure in business. They are to be expected, but intelligently mitigated. My RE mentor chalks up losing money as "getting to go to school." He makes a point to get big lessons out of his failures. If you start to realize that losing certain battles is inevitable and the only thing that really matters is winning the war in the end... That gives me peace in the process.

Should you blame yourself when a failure does happen? It depends. Was it your fault? If it was your fault, accept it, but learn from it. Don't beat yourself up over it. Don't tell yourself you are broken. That's bullshit. If you give it power over you and you let it blockade you from doing anything similar again, you are harming your future in exchange for the comfort of today.

Comforting myself at the expense of my own confidence? No.

Understanding that this is a journey and a process full of ups and downs? Yes.

There is a balance. Would I blame myself if I owned a sports bar that was essentially closed down at gunpoint? No. Who would have seen that coming?

The way I see it, we can either let inevitable failure and difficulty erode our confidence over time or build our wisdom. I choose wisdom.

 

[Hai]

Self-empathy is anabolic. Mental toughness is catabolic.
As with working out both making reps and resting are needed.
Too much mental toughness and you become an emotional cripple.
Too much self-empathy and you become a lazy bob who doesn´t make progress.

 

[MTF]

Curious how your thoughts have changed on this over time @MTF

I'm in the middle with this. Both approaches work in different circumstances.

For example, let's say you're training hard and start to feel some pain.

Is this pain something manageable and probably not dangerous long-term? Keep going.

Is this new pain worrying and feels like something is terribly off? Stop working out and figure out what it is.

The extreme mental toughness fanatics wouldn't stop at all costs (even if it led to making an injury way more serious).

The self-empathy believers would probably stop right when feeling the first pain, thus limiting their growth.

And this is how I see it now. I push myself as hard as I can in a smart way. Being consistent over the long term is way more important than any single challenge.

 

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[Silverfox148]

Fascinating discussion, read the whole thread, had not seen it on the forum.

Each human life is different and unique in its own ways so the below just applies to my experience.

I've been going through this whole process of switching my mindset/view of life from a mostly "mental toughness" prism to of "Self-Empathy/Self-Healing", it is a lifelong effort I suspect. Unfortunately, I suspect a lot of the "mental toughness" folks have had significant childhood trauma such as myself(Goggins, Musk, S.Jobs, W. Buffet). I can listen to David Goggins/Jocko for hours and not get bored, their message resonates right down to my core essence/cells/brain. My trauma was not enough for whatever reason for me to start cutting on myself and other extreme stuff you hear about(I suspect this was due to cultural influences), but over time I have come to see other patterns in my behavior that had just as bad effects on myself/worse than if I had been cutting, it just wasn't visible and was socially acceptable(workaholism, academics, exercise, high performance, mental toughness, etc).

The problem for some as it was with me and I suspect it is with Goggins is that "mental toughness" is just an addiction to not dealing with the trauma and the very uncomfortable emotions that are deep within us due to that trauma(if you suffered childhood trauma, confronting it is one of the hardest but most rewarding things you will do in your life). Prior to my awakening there would be periods where I would exercise multiple times a day, long runs, weightlifting, killing it at my high paying job, mentor others, work with my kids, etc. Sounds great, right? You were killing it man, you were winning at life!

Wrong, if I was killing anything, it was myself/spirit, I now realize I was just keeping myself/mind(via heavy engineering work) busy/distracted and keeping the endorphins up(via exercise) in order not to fall into depression/face my internal demons. This is a valid strategy in that, it does help you survive and fits nicely with the expectations of high performance in the USA, heck it worked for me for a solid 22+ years before I even began to see cracks in it. I managed to climb from a financially dirt poor experience with my dad earning less than 14K a year in the 90s and me arriving in the USA at 7 years old from Mexico not knowing a lick of English and experiencing significant trauma at home/school/etc to graduating college with top grades/honors/recognitions and a high paying job by the time I was 22. Almost 100% of that was driven by "mental toughness/get hard", a great immigrant success story right?

Wrong, I was dead inside and didn't even know it(your mind/ego is that good at lying to you/creating a story for you). I have always been introspective so once the cracks in the foundation started to show up, I became interested and something inside me told me to follow those cracks and see where they led which ultimately brought me to "Self-Empathy/Self-Healing" which has been a multi year process but the biggest gift/awakening , I could not have imagined that such freedom was possible.

If y'all want to hear more about the awakening part let me know, it's a long road and I don't want to bore readers unnecessarily, but can share the rest of my story if it adds value.

 

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[Kevin88660]

It seems to me there are two main schools of self-development.

One is closely aligned with spirituality, self-empathy, self-understanding, kindness, etc. If, for example, you're struggling to lose weight, you seek internal psychological reasons why. You try to understand yourself without making yourself feel bad as self-kindness is a big aspect of this school of thought. The goal is to pursue goals in an "enlightened" way, honoring your limitations, not being overly harsh with yourself, exhibiting inner peace, etc. Examples: Eckhart Tolle, Don Miguel Ruiz.

The second school of self-development is all about mental toughness. If you're struggling to lose weight, you don't rationalize your failures by looking for hidden past trauma. You simply tell yourself you're a b***** and keep pushing until you get what you're after. The goal is to get strong and then get stronger so that nothing breaks you. You don't use any of your weaknesses as excuses. You adapt and keep going no matter what. Examples: David Goggins, Jocko Willink.

Do you believe in self-empathy? Or do you believe it's BS and it's all about mental toughness?

Note that I'm NOT asking about your religious views. I'm asking if you think that self-empathy can be useful or if people use it as an excuse to avoid the hard work.

@Lex DeVille, I'm interested in your thoughts given your experience with the world of psychology.

I don’t think it is a valid comparison. The Eckhart group is more like philosophical or spiritual enlightment.

The second group like david goggins is more like learning the psychology of execution.

They are essentially aiming for different outcomes. Are you trying to get more awareness and enlightenment or you want to focus more and get more things done?

If you want practical measurable results, david goggins is going to be much more relevant.

The missing element is not really self-empathy, in my point of view. You can try to instill the psychological toughness to achieve without losing the touch of self-empathy. One example is Tony Robbins, who is able to balance between toughness and self-empathy. I think thats why he has a large female fan base. Ya but I know that is the exception rather than the norm.

The mental toughness attitude is a subset of the military philosophy towards things. This is as old as human civilization itself. It is still one of the most effective form of execution philosophy till date.

The fanatical practice of self-indoctrination in search for the limit of performance.

Money motivate people, only to a certain extend. In war you need to have a set of value, belief and culture to sell the idea to people to risk their lives to die in the worst way imaginable.

If you can only transfer a fraction of that will power for your personal secular goal, I think it probably will do wonders. Of course easier said than done, but probably a good direction.

 

[Kid]

Self empathy, actually, made me tougher.

 

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[MTF]

In your example, the overweight person with a tendency to self-empathy might realise they're eating emotionally, & do therapy for a year & have a breakthrough & stop needing to emotionally eat, but frankly, they could probably also use a little kick or three to be adopting healthier habits whilst they're doing the therapy (because their health will not always wait patiently).

Makes sense, as long as it doesn't make them develop other eating disorders. I eat emotionally so for many years I kept tracking calories. But then I realized I was constantly stressed out because I was constantly deprived, having to track every calorie and budgeting for treats (which would inevitably ruin my diet as detailed below).

However whilst the strict "never break" people might get faster weight loss (if they're good at sticking to it & not just beating themselves up) they might not ever get to enjoy a doughnut again. As to them that's breaking, (Jocko's "sugar-coated lies" anyone?) but to the person who no longer feels the need to stuff a dozen in their mouths at moments of high emotion, might now be able to enjoy it for what it is - an occasional treat. And mental breakthroughs in one area can also unlock others.

I once read an article about people being abstainers or moderators. I think Gretchen Rubin came up with this:

Back by Popular Demand: Are You an Abstainer or a Moderator? | Gretchen Rubin

Recognizing the distinction of how one faces temptation—by abstaining or moderating—has been an important insight into my own nature.

gretchenrubin.com

It comes down to this:

When dealing with temptation, I often see the advice, “Be moderate. Don’t have ice cream every night, but if you try to deny yourself altogether, you’ll fall off the wagon. Allow yourself to have the occasional treat, it will help you stick to your plan.”


I’ve come to believe that this is good advice for some people: the “moderators.” They do better when they avoid absolutes and strict rules.


For a long time, I kept trying this strategy of moderation–and failing. Then I read a line from Samuel Johnson, who said, when someone offered him wine: “Abstinence is as easy to me as temperance would be difficult.”


Ah ha! Like Dr. Johnson, I’m an “abstainer.”


I find it far easier to give something up altogether than to indulge moderately.

I'm 100% an abstainer. I think I have an addictive personality. I can't eat just one cookie and be done. So if the goal is to lose weight and keep it off, I can't have any treats whatsoever or I'll eventually fail again.

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

I get it. It also depends what work is for you. If it's only about "productive" material actions but no inner work (like learning how to relax, be in the moment) then things can get out of balance.

I agree, it tends to sometimes become a problem for me. Something I need to watch out for.

You're right and I was wrong. I watched this video and it's super clear that Tony is all about training the mind like a muscle, which is essentially building mental toughness. He does mention he's very spiritual but I'd say that it's in the background compared to his training.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6Zbykf7hqk

Yeah, I agree with both of you here. Tony is clearly in the "mental toughness" camp. The biggest giveaway, imo, is the emphasis Tony has on "conditioning". If you read his books, Awaken the Giant Within or Unlimited Power (I believe you have read Unlimited Power @MTF, if I remember correctly you are/were a big fan?) a large portion of them are about "conditioning" or Tony's version of it which he calls neuro-associative conditioning (itself a variant of NLP).

Anyone who emphasizes "conditioning" or "training yourself to become" is not in the same camp as people like Eckhart Tolle or Michael Singer who are about "unconditioning" yourself, "unlearning" and "being".

To me, the contrast is most clear if we compare CBT (which is in its essence similar to NLP, or NAC) and mindfulness. We know that both of them have therapeutic effects that lead to changes in behavior, but the way they lead to those changes (the mechanism of action), is very different. I remember chatting with David Burns (the Doctor who wrote Feeling Good, which introduced CBT to the general public), and he seemed to be very much opposed to mindfulness on the grounds that its results aren't guaranteed in a step-by-step formula, you do this, you get this result, the way things are with CBT (which is really about re-conditioning). Indeed, mindfulness can mean a plethora of things, and isn't even well-defined in the scientific community. So I remember him saying that if you're depressed then you want the treatment with the most solid proof at changing lives.

It seems that CBT works by replacing one thought pattern ("I am worthless") with another ("I may have failed, but now I'm wiser and I'll do better in the future"). Since thoughts cause emotions and behaviors (which further accentuate the thoughts), by changing the destructive thoughts you strike at the root, and ameliorate the troubling behaviors & emotions. This is literarily a form of conditioning. You're conditioning your mind by force/willpower and repetition to think in a certain way.

On the other hand, mindfulness works by creating a space between you and your thoughts (ie, by generating UNDERSTANDING). So "you are not your thoughts" - separating your thoughts from your identity. In this case the thought "I am worthless" comes to you, but it is no longer amplified by your mind with other thoughts, such as remembrances of your past failures, because it is seen for what it truly is: just a passing thought, not something that is part of your identity. Over time, the thought "I am worthless" is drained of emotional energy, rendering it powerless, and then it disappears. The practitioners of this brand of self-help would claim that the "conditioning" camp creates superficial change. Meaning that all this conditioning merely represses the unwanted thoughts/behaviours deep down into the unconscious, where they resurface in a different form to trouble you. And the only way to truly fix it is to do the required inner work and drain the thought of its emotional energy.

 

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[Mr4213]

I'd say self-empathy is definitely a valid method.

It's what I've used.

I think when you go 100% "mental toughness" you're actually avoiding work to an extent.

Because it's a lot easier to ignore the deep rooted issues and just say "stop being a b***"

I'd say its likely that the deep issues will end up manifesting again at some point in your life if you don't resolve them. It's how you grow.

To me it's all about knowing yourself and working on the relationship with yourself.

I can honestly say I'm happy as can be and love life. Business or no business I'm happy with myself and the work I put in every day.

I do my best to live in alignment with who I am. I don't live in the past or the future, but right now. I have no regrets or worries and I trust myself. My life is awesome.

 

[Kevin88660]

If you frame mental toughness as recklessly pushing physical and biological limit then of course it is not wise but also dangerous.

Even if you go to a military camp training, there is a lot of science being talked about ensuring seven hours of sleep, enough hydration, and proper warm up and cool down exercise.

I view mental toughness as getting rid of bullshit that shouldn’t be in your life the first place. You want to fight back against the public perception of what is seen as “normal”.

It is about helping you to accomplish what you should be doing (but fail to do so), not pushing to do what you shouldn’t do.

I certainly feel that you shouldn’t keep on running when your knees hurt. But what about not eating ice cream or calories dense fast food? What about not engaging in social media for non-work purposes? What about …(fill in the blank)

Science says you need 7-9 hours of good sleep. Proper hydration and nutrition, and personal medication if it applies and regular exercise.

Basic common sense and logic says you needs an income to survive in modern world to have basic accommodation.

Everything else, literally, is not a necessity.

Your leisure, holiday, chit chat with your best friend who has no interest in business, your desire for crappy fast food after a hard day’s work. You shouldn’t let non-essential desires get in your way in your pursuit of goals and personal success.

I view mental toughness as reconditioning against “what is normal and acceptable” by the society at large.

When you say I need a holiday at a different city/country after a period of hardwork. No you don’t really need it. You want it and you don’t need it. No part of the human biology or physiology dictates that.

When you say I want to eat crappy delicious food after a hard day’s work, well it is not a necessity. Most of the time in human history we hardly have anything to eat. And even the worst chicken breast with veggies kind of meals are actually delicacy. There are still children in third world countries today who drink a lot of water daily to help them cope better with the feeling of extreme hunger.

The definition of having “a balanced life” propagated by standards and norms of a developed economy is actually not normal at all. Human behaviors are driven by standards and comparison. “Toughness” within a large spectrum is highly subjective, depending on whom you compare with.

 

[SPM_ENT]

Fascinating discussion, read the whole thread, had not seen it on the forum.

Each human life is different and unique in its own ways so the below just applies to my experience.

I've been going through this whole process of switching my mindset/view of life from a mostly "mental toughness" prism to of "Self-Empathy/Self-Healing", it is a lifelong effort I suspect. Unfortunately, I suspect a lot of the "mental toughness" folks have had significant childhood trauma such as myself(Goggins, Musk, S.Jobs, W. Buffet). I can listen to David Goggins/Jocko for hours and not get bored, their message resonates right down to my core essence/cells/brain. My trauma was not enough for whatever reason for me to start cutting on myself and other extreme stuff you hear about(I suspect this was due to cultural influences), but over time I have come to see other patterns in my behavior that had just as bad effects on myself/worse than if I had been cutting, it just wasn't visible and was socially acceptable(workaholism, academics, exercise, high performance, mental toughness, etc).

The problem for some as it was with me and I suspect it is with Goggins is that "mental toughness" is just an addiction to not dealing with the trauma and the very uncomfortable emotions that are deep within us due to that trauma(if you suffered childhood trauma, confronting it is one of the hardest but most rewarding things you will do in your life). Prior to my awakening there would be periods where I would exercise multiple times a day, long runs, weightlifting, killing it at my high paying job, mentor others, work with my kids, etc. Sounds great, right? You were killing it man, you were winning at life!

Wrong, if I was killing anything, it was myself/spirit, I now realize I was just keeping myself/mind(via heavy engineering work) busy/distracted and keeping the endorphins up(via exercise) in order not to fall into depression/face my internal demons. This is a valid strategy in that, it does help you survive and fits nicely with the expectations of high performance in the USA, heck it worked for me for a solid 22+ years before I even began to see cracks in it. I managed to climb from a financially dirt poor experience with my dad earning less than 14K a year in the 90s and me arriving in the USA at 7 years old from Mexico not knowing a lick of English and experiencing significant trauma at home/school/etc to graduating college with top grades/honors/recognitions and a high paying job by the time I was 22. Almost 100% of that was driven by "mental toughness/get hard", a great immigrant success story right?

Wrong, I was dead inside and didn't even know it(your mind/ego is that good at lying to you/creating a story for you). I have always been introspective so once the cracks in the foundation started to show up, I became interested and something inside me told me to follow those cracks and see where they led which ultimately brought me to "Self-Empathy/Self-Healing" which has been a multi year process but the biggest gift/awakening , I could not have imagined that such freedom was possible.

If y'all want to hear more about the awakening part let me know, it's a long road and I don't want to bore readers unnecessarily, but can share the rest of my story if it adds value.

Totally agree with what you're saying. Goggins, while being much mentally tougher than me, seems like he's literally running from something. What's the point? To be tougher just because? I'm sure he gets his high from overcoming himself so whatever makes him happy. If he is indeed happy that's all that matters.

I went through similar issues and started on the "mental toughness" path. I started companies, woke up early, hit the gym, ate right, didn't drink and it was F*cking terrible there was no time for me to do the things I wanted... mostly because I had no idea what I actually wanted and just needed to prove to everyone I was successful. I look back and there was no enjoyment in life. I made some money but ultimately I didn't have the endurance to keep going because I didn't know what motivated me to become "successful."

I've been on the "Self-empathy" path in analysis for the last 2 years and in the beginning, it was the most difficult thing I had ever done. I had to confront my identity which caused me to make different choices and almost lost everything (mostly just money) I had built. Now moving forward on this self-empathy path it's still difficult but I'm enjoying the things I do, having fun, and making more money and it's way easier and less stressfull. It's great and then sometimes it's not. Having been through my versions of both sides "Self Empathy" is the way to go for me.

 

[Silverfox148]

Would love to hear more! Also if you can share some of the resources that helped you on your journey!

BD,

Part of me deep inside somewhere always knew I was not on my true path and I needed to get on it, but my ego/intelligence would not allow it. You ego/intelligence is very very powerful and cannot be defeated rationally with logic as most of us try to do, it is the king of logic and rationality, you will never ever defeat it. The only way to get around your ego/intelligence is via tapping into your emotions as the ego/intelligence doesn't like to play in that realm, they are actually separate physical structures in your brain, this is your path to freedom. This was actually revealed to me by my mind during the first Ayuhasca ceremony I participated in over and over it was reveled to me in a comedic/laughter/jester type way, last year. I understood the message rationally at the time but I didn't understand it at the emotional level until months later. I had never really studied the brain at all so I was recently shocked to learn that the main emotional part of the brain is separate from our intelligence/pre frontal cortex(PFC) part of our brain.

This is actually the problem with Ekhart Tolle/Be Here Now/ Ram Dass/Spirituality genre type books, they are presenting very true and accurate information but it is in a book form, a book is a rational thing and mainly processed by your ego/intelligence/PFC so it just filters it to fit it's own needs. Unless you are tapped into your emotions these books don't really mean jack and can't really help you. I know because I tried these books before I was awake emotionally and they had little to no effect, part of me knew that stuff was true but I couldn't benefit from it. I have shelves full of books on Spiritually/Philosophy/Psychology to prove it.

What you need is something to awaken you emotionally, you need a key. The key for me started a few months prior to Covid in 2020 , it was my left hand going numb, it scared the crap out of me. It happened at work and I thought it was asleep but after shaking it for a while it was still asleep/numb/tingling. I thought I was having a stroke/heart attack and went into some type of panic/anxiety attack on the spot and I drove myself to the Hospital , it was the first time I had been to an emergency room(I was 33 years old). Looking back, it was the first time in probably 20 years that my emotions had taken control in a complex situation and not logic. I checked into the ER and was waiting in the waiting area to be seen but then I calmed down and my intelligence/ego took control again I left without being seen. This was important because I had always refused to go to ERs even when I should have, (broken/badly sprained wrist, bad automobile accident,etc). It was a watershed moment for me looking back.

Covid kicked in and the numbness continued on and off but my emotions were surfacing due to high work stress among other issues outside my control. While working from home on my daughters birthday I thought my cheek and my left foot also went numb/tingling. I thought stroke for sure and went to the ER and drove myself in and got examined. I got a bunch of tests, CT scans/MRI Scans, etc. They found nothing obviously wrong, the neurologist said maybe I had MS, etc. Over the whole of 2020 and the first half of 2021 I spent time in hospitals/drs/cardiologists/multiple MRIs and nobody could find nothing wrong. The anxiety/emotions were on a slow boil and would periodically surface in a myriad of ways some very complex. At the height I remember distinctly even alcohol would not make a dent unless I got completely hammered but some part of me was resistant to going on anti anxiety meds or using alcohol or any other long term chemical to fix(hide) this.

One of my sisters intuitively knew I was going through a tough time even though I hadn't shared much with my extended family. She had gone to an Ayuhasca retreat in Mexico and it had been very positive for her. I had been invited multiple times but I didn't really believe in Ayuhasca. I was extremely skeptical of this stuff and frankly had a view that it was some type of scam. Fast forward to October 2021 and I have run out of western medicine options(in my mind), and the wide range of symptoms literally has to be some anxiety/mind based issue, I am also having bad migraines after never suffering from headaches before, one lasted 2 weeks on and off(mostly on).

I agreed to attend a one night ceremony in Mexico in October 2021 and it was a life changing experience for me. I cannot and will not attempt to describe what happened, only to say that it was life changing and positive. I felt very peaceful for a few weeks but none of my actual behaviors changed , it was not a magic pill that solved anything short term but I believe had good long term effects.

I want to say that I firmly believe that I could have stopped all these symptoms if I had simply doubled down "mental toughness/get hard" and started a harder running/weightlifting program and doubled down at work. Looking back that's what I had been doing since I was 7 years old when I first came to the US, when kids would make fun of me on the playground for not knowing English/being poor/stupid/etc., I was so ashamed looking back. Something in my intuition told me to stay in the emotions and not retreat into mental toughness/get hard/alcohol/anxiety meds, etc.

There is more to the story but I think this is enough for now, as for some of the resources:

Amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0143127748/?tag=tff-amazonparser-20

The Tim Ferriss Show Transcripts: Dr. Gabor Maté (#298) - The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss

Please enjoy this transcript of my interview with Dr. Gabor Maté, a physician who specializes in neurology, psychiatry, and psychology. Transcripts may contain a few typos—with some episodes lasting 2+ hours, it’s difficult to catch some minor errors. Enjoy! Listen to the interview here or by...

tim.blog

My Healing Journey After Childhood Abuse (Includes Extensive Resource List) - The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss

For me, this is the most important podcast episode I’ve ever published. In it, I describe the most life-shaping, certainly the most difficult, and certainly the most transformative journey of my 43 years on this planet. I’ve never shared it before.

tim.blog

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

Hey @MTF

Remember our discussion here?

So I think what you're pointing out is the central divide in modern self-help which has not been resolved with a clear winner yet. I call it "mindfulness" vs "CBT", or "Stoicism" vs "Buddhism". You call it "self-empathy" vs "mental toughness".

There are similarities between whatever the two approaches are called, but they are fundamentally opposed in their essence. I truly believe that they cannot be reconciled, and it seems through your post here that you tend to agree.

Now we are faced with the difficult question of which one is the better approach?

In my experience, I have seen that the MOST successful people are generally the tough go-getter type As, who push themselves, struggle to maintain a positive outlook, focus a lot on how they're talking with themselves (rather than detaching from the voice in their head), and so on. Not saying that there aren't exceptions... But this group is well represented by people like Goggins, Grant Cardone, Jordan Belfort, etc.

There's also the less numerous group who are still very successful - where people like Eckhart Tolle fit in (or Michael Singer who built a billion dollar company) - which take a more mindfulness-based approach, which relies less on changing and fighting thoughts (mental toughness), and more on openness and compassion (detachment + acceptance).

I sense that you're favoring the latter. Is this because it is true? Is it because this is a temporary retreat after the recent failure in your new venture? I don't know, only you can answer this. But I think you can dig gold out of it, because this is literarily the leading edge in self-help - solving this quandary. Would be excellent for your blog, of which I happen to be an avid reader (even shared it with close friends!).

Think Tony Robbins vs Eckhart Tolle. Personally I wish the self-empathy approach was the truth, but I fear the mental toughness one is.

 

[Fid]

I think this depends on the person. For me, the cycle has been the following:

1) Flog myself multiple times a day for how much of a failure I am
2) Feel bad and swear to do better. "Hold myself accountable."
3) Develop a plan
4) Act on plan for some period of time (usually a few hours)
5) Flog myself again for failing.

As you can probably imagine, this method doesn't work too well. To get out of it, I needed a lot of self compassion. Being compassionate towards myself doesn't create any forward momentum, though. But, if you don't believe in yourself, no amount of discipline will help. Once I got to a point where I believed in myself, I needed to apply a bit of mental toughness.

This has been a learning process for me, and takes continual adjustment.

^^^ this.

It looked the same for me. Then once I let go of that pressure, let myself feel compassion for myself, accepted and believed in myself, my self-confidence skyrocketed. I have lots of internal motivation now, and only sometimes need some mental toughness to get me going.

In hindsight, I also see how all my "you are a piece of shit you lazy bastard!" self-talk had 0 chance of success lol.

@MTF - this is such an important thread. Thank you!

 

[Devilery]

To me it's for sure mental toughness first. Years ago, I was severely depressed along with many other mental "difficulties". I do feel entirely different now, and for the better of course, but I can't relate to the whole "love yourself, take time, rest when feeling like you should."

I relate the most to the "grind" culture. I don't have a morning routine, I stopped meditating, I don't have any positive affirmations, etc. I just push myself to do the work every day, and gradually work towards a new "baseline". I fuel myself with negative thoughts. You know, the pain & pleasure principle? Pain is what drives me.

Though, life is all about balance. I highly value thriving relationships. And I wouldn't "suffer" if I didn't get the results I want.

Damn, I feel like an edgy teenager writing this, but I accept that becoming a successful entrepreneur is statistically very, very unlikely, and I accept that it will be extremely hard. And now that I've accepted it, it's much easier to take action.
This helps me to stay assertive and focus on what makes an actual impact. There's no time for delusions.

I like to think that I was supposed to be mediocre (due where I grew up and where my environment was "guiding" me) and work against the odds with brute force and no plan B.

 

[Kid]

In what ways?

I think i'm gonna rub you the wrong way but you asked so.

First:

Without any metaphors or smarty quotes,
mind without acceptance of emotions and feelings is nothing,
feelings without mind are something.

All (and i mean ALL) those false gurus try to sell mind as powerful thing.
It isn't powerful. Its wimpy thing capable at best of firing few neurons and that's it.
All of that guru stuff doesn't work and is made not to work.
They make you believe pleasant lie that never worked and will never work.
All this mind stuff is made to keep you in loop of not achieving anything and paying for more.

So in short, mind alone doesn't work - at all.

To answer the question:

When you'll start being in touch with your feelings and accepting them
you get better at self defense, you get calmer and you learn to ignore things that really don't matter (from trolls, through online hysterias and as high as to anyone who is authority at the moment like presidents or fed chairman).

I suspect that such answer made you feel unpleasant but maybe someday you'll accept it and laugh at what was before.

 

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[Sheens]

I'm asking if you think that self-empathy can be useful or if people use it as an excuse to avoid the hard work.

If this is strictly either/or.. siding with useful over an excuse. Combo of empathy and will is my approach as well!

Weak has or is the excuse. An excuse is not necessarily weak.

Perhaps the minds that seem to have little room for self-empathy and are extremely successful at their level have harnessed empathy without needing to explain it in those terms?

They have the willpower to do it again, do more, and do it better. Did they get that willpower from dominating it the first time, Fn it up the first or first hundred times? Empathy and will at work?

Using empathy as an excuse for weakness doesn't lead to a win. Using it to act on what needs to change does.

The high willpower brain uses the input to give them the best output as nearly default now, regardless of how it's assimilated. The subconscious doesn't so much care what we 'think' about it being there. : )

So if I let myself go sometimes, that can be okay because I know I can choose to change anytime I want.

Yeah! It's all in adaptability!

Consciousness is extremely adaptable, our own input to subconscious is adaptable, and our will is absurdly adaptable.

What we do is who we are. Why you tell yourself you do it is adaptable.

Do good, do our best and ask for forgiveness when we f up, even when that forgiveness or empathy is all within ourselves. Use empathy to encourage will and it becomes unstoppable..

 

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[DiamondDog]

When I'm out of shape, I look at myself in the mirror and think "what a pathetic piece of shit you are". Then I rationalize it and start dieting.

It's a combination of both. Metal toughness is the fire that starts the process for me but then I sit down and relax. I accept who I am and try to work with what I have: all my flaws and virtues.

 

[MTF]

Using empathy as an excuse for weakness doesn't lead to a win. Using it to act on what needs to change does.

100%. I think that's one of the key differences between people who are, let's call it, "smart spiritual" and who are just "spiritual" without actually translating it into anything. But in the end it comes down to whether you really want the change. If not, no amount of mental toughness or spirituality will help.

 

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[peterb0yd]

Is a battery stronger when it has more positive or more negative?

Grow both equally.

Self-empathy helps me attract.

Discipline helps me push back into alignment when I'm stuck in my head.

I'll say this. Meditating for extended periods of time to face my demons head on (demons being feelings of apathy, lust, frustration, anger) with nowhere to hide has been both the hardest and most empowering thing I've ever done.

 

[Jon L]

I think this depends on the person. For me, the cycle has been the following:

1) Flog myself multiple times a day for how much of a failure I am
2) Feel bad and swear to do better. "Hold myself accountable."
3) Develop a plan
4) Act on plan for some period of time (usually a few hours)
5) Flog myself again for failing.

As you can probably imagine, this method doesn't work too well. To get out of it, I needed a lot of self compassion. Being compassionate towards myself doesn't create any forward momentum, though. But, if you don't believe in yourself, no amount of discipline will help. Once I got to a point where I believed in myself, I needed to apply a bit of mental toughness.

This has been a learning process for me, and takes continual adjustment.

 

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[MTF]

I think quite the opposite is the case. Tony is just repackaging the “get tough, no excuse” into a more acceptable version.

He is always starts with his speech saying how he is interested in figuring out how people didn’t lose hope and achieved massive success despite having the odds stacked against them.

He also talked about how you should have a “must do attitude” and visualizing about what you want to motivate you. He always talks about how people who will have started with worst situation imaginable and achieved much more, without literally spelling out “do not find excuses”.

To me he is saying the same things in a more indirect and less offensive manner. Basically he takes great effort to avoid being seen as condescending.

You're right and I was wrong. I watched this video and it's super clear that Tony is all about training the mind like a muscle, which is essentially building mental toughness. He does mention he's very spiritual but I'd say that it's in the background compared to his training.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6Zbykf7hqk

 

[Jon L]

^^^ this.

It looked the same for me. Then once I let go of that pressure, let myself feel compassion for myself, accepted and believed in myself, my self-confidence skyrocketed. I have lots of internal motivation now, and only sometimes need some mental toughness to get me going.

In hindsight, I also see how all my "you are a piece of shit you lazy bastard!" self-talk had 0 chance of success lol.

@MTF - this is such an important thread. Thank you!

haha so true. Though, if you believe in yourself, the 'you're a piece of shit' pep talk might work just fine. For me, though, I would have responded, 'yeah, I guess you're right.'

 

[MTF]

I think i'm gonna rub you the wrong way but you asked so.

Not at all. I'm trying to open my mind because I realized recently how closed-minded I am.

When you'll start being in touch with your feelings and accepting them
you get better at self defense, you get calmer and you learn to ignore things that really don't matter (from trolls, through online hysterias and as high as to anyone who is authority at the moment like presidents or fed chairman).

That's interesting because I've heard something similar in the aforementioned Joe Rogan's interview with Russell Brand. I can see the appeal of not being your thoughts and being more of a "ghost". As in: not feeling attacked or offended when people have different views since you don't consider your own beliefs as the ultimate truth, but just one of many truths.

 

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[WillHurtDontCare]

This is a false dichotomy. Don't prioritize your feelings, prioritize getting what you want. Think in terms of cause and effect, not sentimentality; action, not emotions.

Example: you run a business that sells widgets. You sold $1M of widgets last year, and at the beginning of the new year you decide that you want to sell $2M of widgets. Then December rolls around, and you're only on pace to sell $1.5M of widgets. Like a neurotic, you spend a week tearing yourself apart for falling short of your goal. Then the next week, you tell yourself that you should be proud of yourself for selling $500K more widgets then last week. Then on the third week, you chill out, focus on the data rather than your feelings, realize that one strategy was responsible for 90% of your sales, and you go all in on that, closing the year with $1.6M in sales and a clear path to $3M in sales next year.

Your feelings are usually of secondary or tertiary importance and they should always be subordinated to goals and principles of conduct.

"Foolishness, not sin. Do you understand that?" -Nietzsche

 

[RealDreams]

In today's society, if you are not harsh with yourself, you are F*cked. But of course, there must be some balance. I'm struggling with that myself. Family members always tell me I'm too harsh with myself, I'm too "analytical" and so on, but if I look at their lives, they are the definition of slowlaners who don't understand reality and the script.

On the other hand, being too harsh with yourself leads to perfectionism and paradoxically, to inaction. That's what I'm experiencing now in my life. Been thinking of dropping out of university for 2 months and I'm still wondering whether I should stay or not. That's because I became a perfectionist and that's the worst thing of all, you become paralyzed.

It's a society filled with instant gratification, hence 95% of the people rationalize that you "should" be kind to yourself and "have some rest".

If you lived in a house where all people were go-getters, you would realize that's how life is supposed to be for men. On the other hand, live with some losers who do nothing but play videogames and watch porn and see how your life turns to shit.

The problem is when you are alone in life and have no IRL friends close to you who are go-getters. That's really life in hard mode.