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HOT TOPIC Peeps that manage properties, would it be a good idea to finish university and get this degree

BellaPippin

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Hi guys it's me again, my brain is all over the place this week as you can see.

Goal: Buy multifamily home to live in/collect rent. Build up on that: manage portfolio of properties, make a humble living from rent income to free time.

Question: Did you just wing all this (buying process, knowing what to pick, what's gonna give you cashflow etc.), self taught yourself everything? What do you think of this degree's courses? (Check the sample courses). Even the sustainable development, urban economics thing I find interesting for future ventures I'd like to start (very interested in sustainable solution projects for homeless people, self-sustainable communities/housing, etc).

Please note:
  • I've already completed my associates out of pocket, it's just the other half not the whole degree.
  • My GPA is 3.9, I'm hispanic, woman, bla bla I might get a few chances at scholarships or aid, maybe (hopefully)
  • I WOULDN'T DO THIS BEFORE FALL 2020 OR BEFORE I BUY MY FIRST PROPERTY -- I want to be debt free (which I am) at time of applying for first mortgage.
What are your thoughts? I google courses but it's all for broker, being a real estate agent, this encompasses more of making and running a business of real estate and manage leasing/assets etc. Haven't checked Udemy yet I just thought of that.

Thanks~
 

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biophase

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I don't think that degree or courses are necessary. Most of the rental stuff that you need to know is basic math. You basically need to know the market rent, value of your home, be able to calculate mortgage payments and be able to estimate expenses.

The most important things are to be true to your numbers, don't inflate the rent to its maximum number to make the numbers work. Estimate expenses as if things will break.

Don't try to massage numbers to make the property you want work. You want the numbers to make the property work.

The rest of the stuff you will learn on the fly.
 

Strategery

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I'm in the process of doing this now, I've got the money, just looking for a decent place. Not sure if you've seen this thread or not, but its right up your alley:

 

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I agree with @biophase , There isn't anything schooling is really going to do for you besides suck time and create more debt which will hinder your ability to get a loan. It's fairly basic math and a good bit of research.

@SteveO used to recommend the book how to buy and sell apartment buildings (can't remember the author) I would be that has the additional info you are missing and probably costs less than $50.

Have you researched small multifamily properties in your area already? what have you found thus far?
 

PizzaOnTheRoof

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Checkout Graham Stephan and Meet Kevin on YouTube. Very good real estate advice for newbies.

Also don’t discount single family homes either.

Multifamily is sexy but way more competitive and a lot fewer deals.
 

SteveO

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The book @LightHouse suggested was written by vollucci. The complete guide to buying and selling apartment buildings by Steve Berges.

I read these 20 years ago and used concepts from each to make a plan.

Although old, the information is still useful. Cap rates and such have changed but the processes are valid.
 

holmzee

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As the other posters said just have a baseline of knowledge and you should be good to go. No degree necessary.

If you're looking for a book to get you started I recommend The Book on Rental Property Investing by Brandon Turner of Bigger Pockets.

I haven't invested yet but plan to in the next year and it's what I used to get started.
 

Real Deal Denver

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As the other posters said just have a baseline of knowledge and you should be good to go. No degree necessary.

If you're looking for a book to get you started I recommend The Book on Rental Property Investing by Brandon Turner of Bigger Pockets.

I haven't invested yet but plan to in the next year and it's what I used to get started.
Property mgmt is something I've studied in depth. It is in my top five list of easy ventures to pursue. No inventory - easy to beat competition - and I work according to my system (looking at YOU @Johnny boy!). There are some genius people here that could really run with this and make it work. Thinking about it now, I'm wondering WHY I'm not following through and doing it. But, but, but... yeah I have reasons. Or are they excuses?

Let me throw some numbers at you so you see beyond one bldg. Property mgmt co's get 10% of the rent for their services. If rent is $2,000 (which is low for my area), that's $200 a month you get for managing it. How much money do you want to make a month? Multiply that by 30, and your income could be $6,000.

I won't go into the work itself, as that is more complex than can be covered here. But there is a roadmap laid out for you to think about now.

I had a friend and his wife managing over 100 properties. They had related side gigs that brought in a lot more money beyond that. He eventually sold his biz - which I scolded him for, as I would have run it for him and made it work for all of us. It isn't a fun or easy biz - but that's relatively speaking. Doing what I do (it's almost midnight now, and I'm working) makes this a cakewalk. If you want a punch the clock job, this will definitely not be for you.

With that said - why would you want a degree? A degree is good for getting you a job. My friend that did this did not have a degree. In fact, he came here from a different country and started out beLOW zero - not even knowing the language. He did very well. For example, he bought his mother-in-law a million-dollar home to live in (he owned it, but she lived there - investment thing...)

As you can see, this can be very lucrative. You can hire much of the grunt work out, so you're not going to be fixing toilets, etc. I forgot to mention because it's obvious to me - but he certainly did not own all these properties. He managed them for other people.

If you're going to do something, do it right. Think big. The only one that can hold you back is you.

Now you have something to roll around and think about. See the big picture.
 

Roli

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Hi guys it's me again, my brain is all over the place this week as you can see.

Goal: Buy multifamily home to live in/collect rent. Build up on that: manage portfolio of properties, make a humble living from rent income to free time.

Question: Did you just wing all this (buying process, knowing what to pick, what's gonna give you cashflow etc.), self taught yourself everything? What do you think of this degree's courses? (Check the sample courses). Even the sustainable development, urban economics thing I find interesting for future ventures I'd like to start (very interested in sustainable solution projects for homeless people, self-sustainable communities/housing, etc).

Please note:
  • I've already completed my associates out of pocket, it's just the other half not the whole degree.
  • My GPA is 3.9, I'm hispanic, woman, bla bla I might get a few chances at scholarships or aid, maybe (hopefully)
  • I WOULDN'T DO THIS BEFORE FALL 2020 OR BEFORE I BUY MY FIRST PROPERTY -- I want to be debt free (which I am) at time of applying for first mortgage.
What are your thoughts? I google courses but it's all for broker, being a real estate agent, this encompasses more of making and running a business of real estate and manage leasing/assets etc. Haven't checked Udemy yet I just thought of that.

Thanks~
Usually I'm a big advocate of university education, however in this case I wouldn't advise a course on how to buy houses.

Instead buy a book that has been reviewed recently called Never Split The Difference by Chris Voss. This will give you valuable negotiating tips, which is a large component of purchasing property.

Then browse the forum and the internet at large for good places to search for property and then just go for it.
 
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BellaPippin

BellaPippin

Enough snacking on mediocrity.
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and then when you get an order on etsy order from her in a dropship relationship
I'm in the process of doing this now, I've got the money, just looking for a decent place. Not sure if you've seen this thread or not, but its right up your alley:

I agree with @biophase , There isn't anything schooling is really going to do for you besides suck time and create more debt which will hinder your ability to get a loan. It's fairly basic math and a good bit of research.

@SteveO used to recommend the book how to buy and sell apartment buildings (can't remember the author) I would be that has the additional info you are missing and probably costs less than $50.

Have you researched small multifamily properties in your area already? what have you found thus far?
Checkout Graham Stephan and Meet Kevin on YouTube. Very good real estate advice for newbies.

Also don’t discount single family homes either.

Multifamily is sexy but way more competitive and a lot fewer deals.
The book @LightHouse suggested was written by vollucci. The complete guide to buying and selling apartment buildings by Steve Berges.

I read these 20 years ago and used concepts from each to make a plan.

Although old, the information is still useful. Cap rates and such have changed but the processes are valid.
As the other posters said just have a baseline of knowledge and you should be good to go. No degree necessary.

If you're looking for a book to get you started I recommend The Book on Rental Property Investing by Brandon Turner of Bigger Pockets.

I haven't invested yet but plan to in the next year and it's what I used to get started.
Property mgmt is something I've studied in depth. It is in my top five list of easy ventures to pursue. No inventory - easy to beat competition - and I work according to my system (looking at YOU @Johnny boy!). There are some genius people here that could really run with this and make it work. Thinking about it now, I'm wondering WHY I'm not following through and doing it. But, but, but... yeah I have reasons. Or are they excuses?

Let me throw some numbers at you so you see beyond one bldg. Property mgmt co's get 10% of the rent for their services. If rent is $2,000 (which is low for my area), that's $200 a month you get for managing it. How much money do you want to make a month? Multiply that by 30, and your income could be $6,000.

I won't go into the work itself, as that is more complex than can be covered here. But there is a roadmap laid out for you to think about now.

I had a friend and his wife managing over 100 properties. They had related side gigs that brought in a lot more money beyond that. He eventually sold his biz - which I scolded him for, as I would have run it for him and made it work for all of us. It isn't a fun or easy biz - but that's relatively speaking. Doing what I do (it's almost midnight now, and I'm working) makes this a cakewalk. If you want a punch the clock job, this will definitely not be for you.

With that said - why would you want a degree? A degree is good for getting you a job. My friend that did this did not have a degree. In fact, he came here from a different country and started out beLOW zero - not even knowing the language. He did very well. For example, he bought his mother-in-law a million-dollar home to live in (he owned it, but she lived there - investment thing...)

As you can see, this can be very lucrative. You can hire much of the grunt work out, so you're not going to be fixing toilets, etc. I forgot to mention because it's obvious to me - but he certainly did not own all these properties. He managed them for other people.

If you're going to do something, do it right. Think big. The only one that can hold you back is you.

Now you have something to roll around and think about. See the big picture.
Usually I'm a big advocate of university education, however in this case I wouldn't advise a course on how to buy houses.

Instead buy a book that has been reviewed recently called Never Split The Difference by Chris Voss. This will give you valuable negotiating tips, which is a large component of purchasing property.

Then browse the forum and the internet at large for good places to search for property and then just go for it.
I read a lot about real estate in the past but what i love the most is biggerpockets.com. Their podcast and forum is full of useful information.
Thank you everyone, I don't care about the degree but I did get seduced a bit by the courses-- however you've given me plenty of good sources to learn the basics on my own, I was already guessing most of the people doing it don't have a degree in "Landlording". I don't want student loans either.

For those who asked yes I've been taking a look within Chicagoland and I've seen stuff I like, also felt bad because they were really good/cozy/cute places and I don't have the downpayment money yet.. @Vigilante shared with me resources for when I'm ready some time ago and I have those handy as well :)

A broker told me I can't do an FHA for something with more than 2 units so I'm looking at 2 units and hopefully a finished basement maybe I can low key rent to a friend or something to make it 3 rent incomes, so mortgage gets covered.

So thanks everyone I've taken note of all these books/channels and will visit the library :D While I'm saving the money I wanna make sure I know what to do once I have it.
 

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PizzaOnTheRoof

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A broker told me I can't do an FHA for something with more than 2 units so I'm looking at 2 units and hopefully a finished basement maybe I can low key rent to a friend or something to make it 3 rent incomes, so mortgage gets covered.
That’s not true. You can get an FHA loan for up to 4 units which is considered residential.


You can tell that broker to shove it.
 

SteveO

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I knew someone that owned a fourplex. He lived in one unit and survived off the income. No other job or income. Spent his life surfing and partying.
 
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BellaPippin

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PizzaOnTheRoof

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Well that made my day. I like the 3 unit brick ones with bay windows.

Just need to start saving like a MF

Thanks for letting me know!
No problem!

Take everyone's advice with a grain of salt and do your own research.

3.5% down on 4 units to control almost $1M in real estate while someone else pays the bill? Hell yes!

There are soooo many opportunities, tax incentives and ways to game real estate...it shouldn't be legal! lol
 
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BellaPippin

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I knew someone that owned a fourplex. He lived in one unit and survived off the income. No other job or income. Spent his life surfing and partying.
I’d consider it winning the lottery if I could make that happen. According to my math 3 units could potentially at least get rid of the mortgage then I could just part time in something simple, try to get my ventures going, and also paint and garden... I’m just after the free time first and foremost
 

Bertram

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Hi guys it's me again, my brain is all over the place this week as you can see.

Goal: Buy multifamily home to live in/collect rent. Build up on that: manage portfolio of properties, make a humble living from rent income to free time.

Question: Did you just wing all this (buying process, knowing what to pick, what's gonna give you cashflow etc.), self taught yourself everything? What do you think of this degree's courses? (Check the sample courses). Even the sustainable development, urban economics thing I find interesting for future ventures I'd like to start (very interested in sustainable solution projects for homeless people, self-sustainable communities/housing, etc).

Please note:
  • I've already completed my associates out of pocket, it's just the other half not the whole degree.
  • My GPA is 3.9, I'm hispanic, woman, bla bla I might get a few chances at scholarships or aid, maybe (hopefully)
  • I WOULDN'T DO THIS BEFORE FALL 2020 OR BEFORE I BUY MY FIRST PROPERTY -- I want to be debt free (which I am) at time of applying for first mortgage.
What are your thoughts? I google courses but it's all for broker, being a real estate agent, this encompasses more of making and running a business of real estate and manage leasing/assets etc. Haven't checked Udemy yet I just thought of that.

Thanks~
Have fun, you 're starting a great adventure.
Not sure you need the advanced degrees, in fact you will set yourself up for conflict of interest if you get involved in any municipal planning and stand to make a profit.
Keep ears to the ground but don't be a board member or commissioner or officer.

I learned real estate brokerage, taking over two years, in order to invest in rentals and flips. I property managed from college to present day.
I followed and went to work for a family legacy real estate broker, not a national franchise. He was someone who knew about property transactions going back decades and decades. He would make fun of the fluff taught in the real estate schools.
I also chose him because pyramid-style agencies like Keller Williams offer systematized but limited instruction. KW will never, ever teach their agents about how to save a deal that turns dirty or looks very unusual.
I went to work as a side hustle with the broker who will do deals with the most ruthless, dirty, wildly successful investment brokers around. No one else will teach you for instance how to spot defects that the seller did not disclose in paperwork before you make an offer, and then how to use the inspector's discovery to renegotiate a lower offer at the end of the inspection period. Or that you as a buyer under contract can privately ask the town for a code variance prior to purchase, get it passed at the next public meeting, and get the sale before the area buyers have a clue. The right mentor will teach you all the dirty moves realtors use to keep their listings off the market while they bring their own buyers in to earn buyer and seller commissions. If you spot this you can play better defense.
So have fun, it does take guts to thrive, and spend some time asking agents about the various brokers around. Find the one independent broker who will teach you the entire game.

About 90% of the realtors I met were dishonest dealers, but they still did not know 90% of the moves. I did commercial and residential transactions as a side hustle. That was a blast, especially because I could win outlier deals, and with a good conscience.

The big boys with 1200 units sometimes plot transactions years ahead. They'll wait for
properties to change hands a few times before their turn comes. This savvy, the investor 's soul, cannot be taught in real estate school. Not one started with an MBA, more like hard knocks, doing construction, owning junk yards. I like grit, plan get back in in five years.
Have fun!
I hope the bug bites and you stay in it for the passion of the hunt. And don't forget about how you'll have to provide for Old BellaPippin.
 
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BellaPippin

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And don't forget about how you'll have to provide for Old BellaPippin.
Thank you! I'm also thinking about BellaPippin parents as well. I'm an only child and I'm not even in the same country so I either make it out of the slowlane or my hands are gonna be tied for many things.
 

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I’d consider it winning the lottery if I could make that happen. According to my math 3 units could potentially at least get rid of the mortgage then I could just part time in something simple, try to get my ventures going, and also paint and garden... I’m just after the free time first and foremost
This is where the books will come in handy. The income from three units would need to cover a multitude of items. This is only a partial list as there are always things that crop up.

Debt service
maintenance and repairs
utilities
legal and accounting
make readies (turnover)
Rent loss from vacancies
Loss to move-in specials
Lost rent from deadbeats
Capital improvements
landscaping
taxes (property and local)
insurance

Most people don't calculate enough of these expenses. These expenses are real and very dependent on location. People have rules of thumb that they use but I don't like them. An example would be using a percentage of income. A rule of thumb might be to use 30% of income for expenses.

Well, an apartment that collects $2000 per month vs. one that collects $800 would send that percentage all over the place.

In Arizona, I used $3500 per unit, per year for expenses. That was MY calculated number from experience.

Income will vary based on the rental market. In a low vacancy situation, people don't tend to move as much so rent losses may be lower. I would calculate based on the areas vacancy factor. If the rate was 5%, I would calculate 8% average rent loss. If the rate was 10%, I would calculate 20-22% rent loss
 
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BellaPippin

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This is where the books will come in handy. The income from three units would need to cover a multitude of items. This is only a partial list as there are always things that crop up.

Debt service
maintenance and repairs
utilities
legal and accounting
make readies (turnover)
Rent loss from vacancies
Loss to move-in specials
Lost rent from deadbeats
Capital improvements
landscaping
taxes (property and local)
insurance

Most people don't calculate enough of these expenses. These expenses are real and very dependent on location. People have rules of thumb that they use but I don't like them. An example would be using a percentage of income. A rule of thumb might be to use 30% of income for expenses.

Well, an apartment that collects $2000 per month vs. one that collects $800 would send that percentage all over the place.

In Arizona, I used $3500 per unit, per year for expenses. That was MY calculated number from experience.

Income will vary based on the rental market. In a low vacancy situation, people don't tend to move as much so rent losses may be lower. I would calculate based on the areas vacancy factor. If the rate was 5%, I would calculate 8% average rent loss. If the rate was 10%, I would calculate 20-22% rent loss
There is indeed so much I don't know about, better start reading.
 

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My opinion: Don't go to school for this.

Look at the course syllabi and get textbooks on the subjects

There are so many good university courses online for free (and I mean Harvard, Stanford, MIT)

Academic knowledge is pure gold, imo. Academia has a great philosophy of fact-checking and making sure that only the most reputable information is presented to it's students. Is it perfect? No. But usually you'll get the best info that way. For example, MJ's books? They are very closely related to what you would learn in Business school, just with his unique twist.

But for this I wouldn't spend the money

MIT put it's entire course catalogue online for free. Most Ivy League universities are dedicated to open learning on platforms like edx and Coursera. Udemy can be hit or miss.

Look up the courses you want to take here: Discover Free Online Courses & MOOCs • Class Central
 

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Are you sure you want to buy in Chicago? The real estate market history there is just not very good and on top of that you've got super high taxes.

Most of my friends live in Chicago and so do my parents. So I keep looking at buying a place there to stay at whenever I go back there, but I just can't justify it. The numbers don't work and there's virtually no appreciation. The house I sold in 2003 for $358k just resold for $369k last summer.

I'm curious as to what historical prices you see on the 3 flats that you are looking at?
 

biophase

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No problem!

Take everyone's advice with a grain of salt and do your own research.

3.5% down on 4 units to control almost $1M in real estate while someone else pays the bill? Hell yes!

There are soooo many opportunities, tax incentives and ways to game real estate...it shouldn't be legal! lol
Leverage seems great and all until you have 2 empty units and you can't pay the mortgage. I used to play this game and it sucked if you didn't have a tenant or 2 things broke at once. You just deal with it. But one AC unit going out will put you in the negative for 2-3 years when extremely leveraged.
 
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BellaPippin

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Are you sure you want to buy in Chicago? The real estate market history there is just not very good and on top of that you've got super high taxes.

Most of my friends live in Chicago and so do my parents. So I keep looking at buying a place there to stay at whenever I go back there, but I just can't justify it. The numbers don't work and there's virtually no appreciation. The house I sold in 2003 for $358k just resold for $369k last summer.

I'm curious as to what historical prices you see on the 3 flats that you are looking at?
I've been here for almost 6 years permanently now and it's just... I love Chicago, it's my kind of town! HAHA SEE WHAT I DID THERE-- no but for real, I really like it here, except well, obviously the weather. I just feel like I fit here. :blank: Not like I know other places thoroughly but I've been happy here so far, city-related speaking.

I haven't looked at that, I will pay attention when I go look at listings. I'm a total newb. No experience or knowledge in RE. All I know is that I wanna be a landlady to reduce my rent, and hopefully build it from there. But unless I understand what I'm getting into I'm going to try not to take uncalculated/stupid risks which is why I think I should get all the knowledge now while I save.

That said I'm not looking for anything fancy, probably an up and coming neighborhood that is safe enough, close to CTA, not too much rehab work to do (which I've found). So far what I've seen that looks "good" at first sight is somewhere between 280-350k (usually less than 350k, that's my limit and it's pushing it, too)
 

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Just a little note. It can sometimes be really cheap to make a kitchen and bathroom that is good enough for rental. If you have a shithole appartment, you can sometimes make it 2 apparments with relativly little work. Learn how electric and plumbing basics work, and you can save a lot by using whats there in stead of making everything new.
 
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Leverage seems great and all until you have 2 empty units and you can't pay the mortgage. I used to play this game and it sucked if you didn't have a tenant or 2 things broke at once. You just deal with it. But one AC unit going out will put you in the negative for 2-3 years when extremely leveraged.
What is the meaning of "extremely leveraged"? Not enough cash reserves? Or something related to the value of the mortgage/property?
 
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BellaPippin

BellaPippin

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Just a little note. It can sometimes be really cheap to make a kitchen and bathroom that is good enough for rental. If you have a shithole appartment, you can sometimes make it 2 apparments with relativly little work. Learn how electric and plumbing basics work, and you can save a lot by using whats there in stead of making everything new.
Thank you!

.. On another note, I saw your name is Creep but I read Creed and though of Creed from "The Office"
 

SteveO

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What is the meaning of "extremely leveraged"? Not enough cash reserves? Or something related to the value of the mortgage/property?
Extremely leveraged is what you are looking at with FHA
 

SteveO

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Thank you!

.. On another note, I saw your name is Creep but I read Creed and though of Creed from "The Office"
I'm hoping that @Creep means something else in your home language. If you are using the English term, it is not a title that people will readily accept.
 

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