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New Kid On The Block

mossie

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I have been watching and reading and learning on this forum for a while now and after all this time decided (with lots of encouragement from my good friend who you will meet very soon) I have enough courage to start this progress thread. My courage and motivation comes from people like COSenior, ChickenHawk Held For Ransom and others.

I apologize in advance if the first few posts here sounds like the plot of a mystery novel. Maybe that is because the books I am working on are all in that Mystery Suspense Thriller Conspiracy genre.

Before I start unveiling the secrets a bit about myself - for those who don't become bored easily.
English is not my first language and that is why I have been working with ghostwriters for all of my non-fiction books.

I live in Australia and have been self publishing non-fiction books for about 2 years now and have about 15 titles on Amazon. It brings a fairly steady and reliable income every month but obviously not enough to retire as yet. Based on my current income from those 15 titles I will need to have 150 titles on there to take up full-time writing. I am still working on and publishing new non fiction titles but at a bit slower pace than before.

So about 6 months ago I have decided to expand my horizons a bit into the fiction market. But with my English only being good enough for my own use I had to team up with a professional. That is where I decided to team up with .... yes hold your breath .... none other than ... the respected and beloved ... COSenior! We have been working on a range of books in Mystery Suspense Thriller Conspiracy genre. We have just published the first title, the second one is currently being edited and number 3 is being written as of yesterday.

The first book is a full length novel and was published on the 11th April. The title is The Tenth Cycle and it is available on Amazon kindle and books. Obviously any reviews will be very,very welcome. The book has been doing reasonably well the first few days. Got about 21 sales so far 5 reviews and that stellar 5star review form a top 500 Reviewer. The ranking went to around 17,500 on day 2 after publication which landed the book in the top 100 bestsellers in its sub category. But it has now dropped out of that now. The ranking is currently floating between the low and late 30k now. However it is sitting at # 11 in Hot New Releases for its Sub Category.

So now that I have embarrassed COSenior enough with this revelation I will give the microphone to my co-conspirator (COSenior) to tell you more about how we are working together and what we are planning for the future.

So here we go.
 
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ChickenHawk

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So glad you joined in with a progress thread! It sounds like you're off to a terrific start, and it bodes really well that you're a hot new release for your sub-category. Can't wait to her how it goes as you move forward!
 

COSenior

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I suppose that it would make a better story if I claimed that I didn't know this was going to happen, but in truth, @mossie and I discussed it. We wondered if either of us would regret revealing information that might lead to our real selves. I'll admit I was apprehensive, not because of anything he and I do together, but because of other considerations. In the end, we determined that the satisfaction of being able to receive the support of the rest of the community, along with the hope that our story will assist someone else as we have been assisted by the amazing threads in this sub-forum is worth the risk.

Before we get to any of that, I'd like to take the opportunity to humbly and publicly thank Mossie for selecting me among many candidates for his projects, for believing in me and encouraging me to write fiction even though I insisted I couldn't, for introducing me to this forum, and for being kind enough to insist we are collaborators, rather than client and ghostwriter. I have to admit that, from several months of habit, I still have to be reminded of the latter once in a while. I couldn't have imagined a better collaborator, and I doubt I'll ever have a better friend. He flatters me outrageously and I shamelessly eat it up.

So, how can we help? I think it may be useful to show you a working relationship that's a little different from the other threads of publishers who are using ghostwriters. Maybe it will resonate with you, maybe you'll see an opportunity that you couldn't see before. Are you a storyteller whose language skills don't give you confidence? Do you have language expertise, but struggle with plotting? Do you need the moral support of a writing partner? If any of these or related issues are yours, perhaps our story will give you some actionable ideas.

Mossie mentioned the future, but I have to say to you, as I've said to him, we can't know what that holds. Whatever it holds, we have had an extraordinarily good time fighting over, I mean discussing, characterizations, choices in language, and plot points in two, going on three books that I've enjoyed writing according to his concepts. Whether there will be more remains to be seen, and will be based on whether our books sell well, because we are both business people. One thing is certain; whether our collaboration continues or ends, I have found a friend that I feel will support me and want the best for me no matter what. I hope Mossie feels the same way about my genuine affection and support for him; I think he does.

I think I can speak for him as well as myself in wishing any readers who are gracious (and brave) enough to read this thread the best of luck in pursuing their dreams. If either of us can answer a question you have about a writing collaboration, please feel free to ask it.
 

mossie

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So glad you joined in with a progress thread! It sounds like you're off to a terrific start, and it bodes really well that you're a hot new release for your sub-category. Can't wait to her how it goes as you move forward!
Thanks for that CH. Let's hope the books will do well. My co-conspirator is an excellent writer so as far as quality of contents are concerned that should never be a problem.
 
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mossie

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I suppose that it would make a better story if I claimed that I didn't know this was going to happen, but in truth, @mossie and I discussed it. We wondered if either of us would regret revealing information that might lead to our real selves. I'll admit I was apprehensive, not because of anything he and I do together, but because of other considerations. In the end, we determined that the satisfaction of being able to receive the support of the rest of the community, along with the hope that our story will assist someone else as we have been assisted by the amazing threads in this sub-forum is worth the risk.

Before we get to any of that, I'd like to take the opportunity to humbly and publicly thank Mossie for selecting me among many candidates for his projects, for believing in me and encouraging me to write fiction even though I insisted I couldn't, for introducing me to this forum, and for being kind enough to insist we are collaborators, rather than client and ghostwriter. I have to admit that, from several months of habit, I still have to be reminded of the latter once in a while. I couldn't have imagined a better collaborator, and I doubt I'll ever have a better friend. He flatters me outrageously and I shamelessly eat it up.

So, how can we help? I think it may be useful to show you a working relationship that's a little different from the other threads of publishers who are using ghostwriters. Maybe it will resonate with you, maybe you'll see an opportunity that you couldn't see before. Are you a storyteller whose language skills don't give you confidence? Do you have language expertise, but struggle with plotting? Do you need the moral support of a writing partner? If any of these or related issues are yours, perhaps our story will give you some actionable ideas.

Mossie mentioned the future, but I have to say to you, as I've said to him, we can't know what that holds. Whatever it holds, we have had an extraordinarily good time fighting over, I mean discussing, characterizations, choices in language, and plot points in two, going on three books that I've enjoyed writing according to his concepts. Whether there will be more remains to be seen, and will be based on whether our books sell well, because we are both business people. One thing is certain; whether our collaboration continues or ends, I have found a friend that I feel will support me and want the best for me no matter what. I hope Mossie feels the same way about my genuine affection and support for him; I think he does.

I think I can speak for him as well as myself in wishing any readers who are gracious (and brave) enough to read this thread the best of luck in pursuing their dreams. If either of us can answer a question you have about a writing collaboration, please feel free to ask it.
 

mossie

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COSenior does have a way with words does she not? :) Well it was and still is one of the most amazing and exciting journeys in a very,very long time for me. The feelings are very mutual. We have a wonderful working relationship.

Ok for those who want to see the book here is the link
The Tenth Cycle: A Thriller (A Rossler Foundation Mystery)

If anyone wants to read it and or review it PM me and I will be happy to Gift the book to you.
 

mossie

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I'd be glad to take a look and will review for you on the site.

Congrats on the successes and the collaboration!
Thanks for that. PM me with your Amazon email address and I will Gift the book to you.
 

mossie

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For those who are interested perhaps COSenior and I can explain a bit about our process. COS please chip in - you can explain a lot better than I can how you experience the process from your side. Here is my version.

  1. We will come up with a plot idea and discuss it.
  2. If we both like the idea we would think about it for a day or two and then discuss our thoughts i.e. how we see the story and characters developing etc.
  3. I will then create a fairly extensive story outline showing how the story develops:
    • scene by scene and/or chapter by chapter if necessary
    • I include most of the character descriptions and also pictures of what the characters should look like
    • I also do the research and put it all in one place with references in the outline to the research
  4. The outlines and character descriptions etc is between 15 and 40 pages in some cases. Whatever it takes to write the entire flow of the story down.
  5. Then we review all of that and make the changes, agree everything and do more research if required.
  6. COS then does her magic - and to me what she does is magic - I don't have the ability to do that at all:
    • She uses scrivener for her writing
    • She creates a beatsheet and scene map from the outline
    • She says before she starts writing she sees the whole story play like a movie in he head and that is what she writes
  7. Now an important lesson I have learned - never ever do anything to stop that movie! That is critical. :)
  8. Ok so now the writing starts and I sit on the sideline most of the time - watching what she does.
  9. I look at what she writes on a daily basis but have learned to keep my comments to myself.
    • I make notes of my comments but she does not see that. That is a very valuable lesson we have learned. Don't comment until it is all done.
    • Yes if something gets way off the track and could impact the story I will let her know. But I have learned to keep that to an absolute minimum.
    • We found that those "going of track" scenarios do not happen (or very seldom happens) if we do our upfront planning and outlining properly
    • So the better and more detailed the planning the quicker the story is written
  10. Whenever she has questions or get stuck we will discuss and agree how to move forward.
  11. When its all written I will do a line by line edit and commenting - its takes about a week to do that.
  12. Then COS will go through and update the book according to the edits and comments and then we send it out for editing by an independent person.
I guess out of that will be some questions and also COS will give some input as well.

On the personal interaction front.
  1. COS and I have never met each other. I live in Australia and she in the USA.
  2. We do however have a deal that if we can reach a steady income of $5,000 per month we will make a plan to visit each other. :)
  3. We communicate by email and Skype voice and/or text messaging
  4. We use a cloud based file storage facility (Dropbox) to share information
As I have mentioned before English is my second language and I have never felt confident to write a story. I am sort of ok to write non fiction and how to type stuff but not fiction.

That lack of English language skills also somehow made me believe that I don't have one single creative hair on my entire body! But after COS and I met and had a few discussions she kept on telling me I have it I must just write it down in an outline. So that is how it all started. I wrote down the outline of the first story I had in my head which is the book that we have just published. The Tenth Cycle

I was really amazed at how my brain started seeing opportunities for new stories and ideas. I just could not believe what was going on in my head! Some nights my brain was so excited and busy I could not sleep! Almost as if those ideas were always there just waiting to get out. It was like a bottle with a sparkling drink and a cork on it, COS gave it a shake or two and took the cork off! :) Well these days (about 6 -7 months later) I have lots of story ideas and it feels like I can come up with a few of them every day if I have to. So I am constantly working on a new story outline. At the speed that COS can write I have to! :)

Ok I guess that is enough for now. Happy to answer any questions.
 
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COSenior

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That sums it up pretty well, actually. It's a stroke of serendipity that we found each other, because I had the same insecurities about creativity. I still have a hard time coming up with plots on my own. I also was convinced I couldn't write dialog, which was why I turned down Mossie's proposal to work together on fiction originally. Thank goodness he was still interested after I changed my mind thanks to @Held for Ransom's thread. I've been convinced by feedback that my dialog isn't all that bad, so the fact that Mossie has the plot concepts complements my strength, which is to craft the words and sentences to bring his stories to life.

Our genre is perfect to give Mossie an outlet for his inquisitive mind. I'm always impressed by the obscure facts that he knows a lot about, and reading the research he provides informs my imagination. Each plot we've taken up seems better than the last to me, which keeps me excited about writing his stories.

Mossie didn't adequately convey the amount of communication between us. We Skype almost daily, and joke that we are incapable of having a quick conversation. A lot of it is exploring the cultural differences between Australia and the US. Just today, he learned that most Americans don't have a long holiday weekend for Easter, and I learned that most Aussies do. He says that's almost as weird as having snow at Christmas, which cracked me up.

I'd say that the two most important things to take from these observations if you are looking for a collaboration, whether that's co-writing or working with a ghostwriter, is find someone whose strengths fill in your weaknesses and communicate constantly.
 
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seamles

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Funny again timing of your post and what I read. I'll update more on my thread as to try to avoid hijacking threads, but I am currently coauthors on one short story of about 8k words as we try to learn to work together. I'm very happy with the product.

I'm trying to work with my coworker as we expand the vision for the educational ebooks while then providing detailed outlines to writers.

Lastly, I'm excited to start two works with someone who is collaborating with me as we create two series. We sort of have a similar relationship to the one you described. Hope it works as well though!
 

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Did you guys pool from your current readers to market? Seems like you've already gotten pretty good dales and awesome reviews! I know you both have had success before this, so did that help with the process?
 

COSenior

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Actually, what success I've had has come since beginning to collaborate with Mossie. And his previous success was in non-fiction, so no, we don't have a pool of current readers for this genre. I'll let him answer the marketing question as I've only offered ideas for his implementation. He's got his own ideas on that. BTW, that's a sensitive subject, so don't be offended if he respectfully declines to answer in a public forum. Like much of internet marketing in general, as soon as everyone starts doing it, it becomes less effective.
 
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mossie

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Yes what COS is saying there is correct. We have not achieved success with fiction ... not yet ... but ... :)

I would say we have been successful at collaboration and writing some good quality books but it is really very early days for us. By us I mean the books under the JC Ryan pen name. We have only released the first book less than a week ago. There are two more on the way and only a month or so after we have finished the 3rd book will we be able to get an idea of how successful this effort has been. So I guess that is why it is called a progress thread.

COS has made a good start with the Natasha Stories pen name, having published 3 books already and making sales. But nothing that could put anyone on retirement in the Bahamas or any other exotic place yet. :)

But what I call success is what ChickenHawk has achieved - just read her thread and you will see what I mean. That is something to aim for. That thread of hers and Held for Ransom's are COMPULSORY reading if you want to learn about fiction publishing.
 

mossie

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1milclub posted the questions below in a PM to me a day or so ago and we have agreed to move it over here for the benefit of others as well.

Mossie, I appreciate your bold decision to reveal the details, the book title, and the collaboration with Cosnair.

I myself am in IT Management, and have not been in touch with stories for some time, but just looking at your history I thought I will drop a line to ask for a book. I will force myself to read and provide review. Not sure how the gift works, but let me know what you need from me - email etc.

By the way, I am also considering writing a non-fiction, and to see someone who has published so many non-fiction, I must ask for an advice. I am considering management/leadership/motivation type of a book. I know there are tons but I am trying to find a niche and start small. Do you have any suggestions?

Thanks again,

- RJ


So here is my reply.

Thanks for the offer to review the book. I have emailed you an Amazon gift card. Looking forward to read your review.

As for the choice of your categories for your non-fiction books i.e. management/leadership/motivation that is an excellent choice. I have looked at that market and I know it is a good market. I actually have a book in that space and it doing well and has been doing well for more than 18 months now. Just make sure you do your research before you jump in. I suggest for your research you visit the best sellers lists for those topics on Kindle and CreateSpace and have a good look at what is selling.

Here is what I do:
  1. I look at the best sellers list of the categories and sub categories and sub sub categories that I am interested in - I am talking about the Top 100 lists
  2. First I check the ranking of book number 1 to see if it is a good market - I believe anything below 10,000 in non-fiction is good provided that book number 20 also ranks good (see next point below)
  3. Then I look at book number 20 and if that book is ranking below 20,000 I also know I have got a fairly deep reader pool - in other word lots of people who want to read about this topic
  4. Once I establish that I have a "good market" I will look at what exactly has been written, the titles, and the subtitles, the length of the book i.e. number of pages, when it was published etc.
  5. Look at the covers and descriptions and see if I can pick up what keywords they are using. In non fiction keywords are very important. I suspect because people who read non fiction search differently on Amazon. They have a problem they want solved and they search for specific words i.e. 'how to be a good manager" or "good manager" etc
  6. I also do searches for keywords that I can think or imagine people would use and then make notes of what comes up on the drop down when I search and I also look at the books that come up for those keywords - how they rank etc
  7. Ok so once I have done that I will have an idea of what I want to write about i.e. my topic.
For me those 7 steps are the most critical part in the process. In other words to research and find the right topic - what is selling and what not. If you make a mistake in this part of the process nothing can really salvage it - not a good cover, not good contents or description, no promotion - none of those will salvage a book for which there is no market. It makes sense.
It might sound simple but let me tell you I am amazed how many people don't get that concept right. Most people that I talk to say "Ah I have this idea for a book. What do you think?" My response is always - "i have no idea how it will do. But its easy to find out - just go to Amazon and do what I have described above. The information is all there. Use it analyze it and you will know even before you write one single word if you will be successful or not.
Finally a few observations about non fiction books:
  1. Non fiction books are tied to keywords - so you must find the keywords for your topic and use them in your book title and descriptions etc. So what words do people use when they search for the answer or solution to their problem?
  2. Non fiction books don't sell as many books as fiction - just have a look at the Top 100 Best Sellers list - more than 95% of the books are fiction books.
  3. Non fiction books in the right market have a much longer shelf life than fiction but the income is much less. I have books that have been sitting there for more than 2 years making me more or less the same income every month - like salary!
  4. I found that with non fiction books there is a repeatable recipe. Once you understand it you can repeat it over and over again and you know it will work and bring you income.
My opinion is that a good non fiction book solves a problem, has the right keywords and description, has a professional cover and good quality contents. If you tick all those boxes you WILL sell your books and they will continue to sell.

I think that is enough for now. let me know if you have more questions.
Cheers
Mossie
 

COSenior

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Thought you'd enjoy another peek at the collaboration process. I started the third book in our series with a lot of excitement about the plot; had it parsed into a beat sheet and everything. Only to discover that we had a fundamental flaw in thinking about a critical plot point. Tried to work it out on my own, and just got into a math mess, so I called for help. Now it's in Mossie's hands and I have no doubt he'll have it figured out by the time I get back to writing.

Handling requested edits of the second book now, and I think Mossie wants to release it mid-May. Excited to see how the second one is received; I liked it even better than the first.
 
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mossie

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Time for a progress report. The book was launched on the 11th April and the sales figures by date are as follows:

Date #Sold

  • 12/04/2014 - 3
  • 13/04/2014 - 12
  • 14/04/2014 - 4
  • 15/04/2014 - 2
  • 16/04/2014 - 36
  • 17/04/2014 - 12
  • 18/04/2014 - 13
  • 19/04/2014 - 4
  • 20/04/2014 - 1
  • 21/04/2014 - 4
  • 22/04/2014 - 2
  • 23/04/2014 - 5
  • 24/04/2014 - 7
  • 25/04/2014 - 3
  • 26/04/2014 - 2
  • 27/04/2014 - 158
  • Total - 268
Ranking currently 3,720 but it has been as high as 60k at times prior to today and most of the times is has been hovering between the 35k to 45k range until today. Those spikes on 16/4/14 and 27/4/14 are the results of a few paid marketing campaigns.

At the moment the ranking stats are as follows:
  • #27 in the Top 100 Best Sellers as well as #2 in the Hot New Releases of the Conspiracy subcategory
  • #44 in the Top 100 Best Sellers and at #14 on Hot New Releases of the Mystery sub category.
Obviously I am very happy with those rankings but I also have to be realistic – the price is 99 cents and the campaign that is running at the moment is bringing in good sales and obviously helps to rank the book well for now. Once the campaign is over the ranking will in all likelihood drop again. But, on the other hand, hopefully this spike in sales and ranking would have generated enough interest to maintain a good ranking for a few days or maybe a week or so after the campaign has ended.

With this promotion efforts I am also learning a lot about what works and what not in fiction book marketing. It is very, very different from non-fiction book marketing - steep learning curve at my age! :) My initial thoughts are that one can easily spend a lot of time on listing your books on free sites, Facebooking and Twittering and trying to get reviews etc with very little return. I am currently weeding out the stuff that’s not really working and making notes and lists of those that do but it does take time and effort. It seems to me there are a few things that are worthwhile doing but I guess it comes down to the old 80/20 rule of that famous Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto. In other words only about 20% of the promotion efforts will provide a decent and noteworthy return while 80% of them will be a waste of time. I am learning which is which at the moment.

The book has not been free as yet. I am waiting for the publication of the second book which is currently going through the editing process and I hope to have that published in the next 2-3 weeks. Everyone that I spoke to has been telling me that for sales to really take off you need a series of books. So the next big objective for me is to get that second book out and hopefully follow with the third book within 4-6 weeks after that. I am sure COS is up to that! ;)

Since the launch day I have also managed to get a fair number of good reviews (17) which I think does help when people have to make the buy decision – especially from an unknown author.

I do have a website up and running at http://www.jcryanbooks.com/ and capturing email addresses of people who want to sign up for the next books in the series. To date I have collected 4 email addresses.Would have loved to have a lot more by now.

COS over to you for any comments you might have.

Any advice and comments are welcome.
 

COSenior

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You've been busy while I wasn't looking! I guess I've got a firm deadline now. I have nothing to add, since I've not been involved in the marketing effort, but good to know you're learning what's effective and what isn't. I'd say that ranking is a positive result. I've learned to value any rank above 10k.
 

mossie

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Hi COS Thanks for that reply there to Syc.

He is also the guy how designed the cover for the book.
 

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Another quick update.
  • 12/4 - 26/4 - 110
  • 27/04/2014 - 179
  • 28/04/2014 - 146
  • Total - 435
Ranking currently 1,034 - it looks like the book is now getting traction because of the better ranking and . We are extremely happy about that.

At the moment the ranking stats are as follows:
  • #11 in the Top 100 Best Sellers as well as #2 in the Hot New Releases of the Conspiracy subcategory
  • #10 in the Top 100 Best Sellers and at #4 on Hot New Releases of the Mystery sub category.
We are extremely happy about the current rankings - I wish I knew what else I could do to improve it further or at least just keep it there.
 
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mossie

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Ok another quick update.

Ended April with a total of 476 sales and an overall ranking of about 3,800. The ranking has been dropping again steadily the last few days currently sitting at about 4,600.

I am reasonably happy with the performance so far taking into account:
  • The book was only published on 11 April
  • No free promotion has been done as yet
  • There is the only book I have up now - so I am not getting the benefits of a series of books as yet.
Next major goal is to get the second book published ASAP.
 

mossie

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Just to let you all know the second book is out there. Ninth Cycle Antarctica - http://amzn.to/1fWEyah

Any comments readers reviewers are welcome. Happy to "Gift" the book to anyone who would like to read and review.

Sales are slow but I have a few upcoming campaigns for the coming weekend so hopefully that will get some interest in the book. Got a few good reviews early on.
 
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COSenior

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Thanks to a question about this in another thread, I've revisited this thread and realized we haven't updated in quite a while. The third book, Genetic Bullets, was published around July 20, and has been well received. From a Skype message that @mossie sent last Tuesday: 'Oh forgot to tell you I made a rough calculation yesterday of sales in August and ... we have sold 1,816 books and had 381 loans.'

We've also built a list of around 300 so far, with about 5 a day coming in recently. As Mossie says, we're gaining traction.

The fourth book, titled The Sword of Cyrus, is complete as to story line, but I'm working on a few revisions in the first half of the book before we turn it over to our beta readers and Mossie adds his suggestions. We anticipate publishing before the end of October. While I have a little down time, I'll be working on a romantic suspense novel on my own before starting the next book for the JC Ryan pen name.

It has become abundantly clear that our collaboration is working and that if we can just keep coming up with stories and words, we're on our way. We'll let you know when Hollywood comes calling. ;)
 
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Timbonitus

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Awesome progress man! I always heard that it's difficult t oget started in the fiction genre. The progress that you guys made so far is really awesome. Maybe I'll grab one of your books soon :)

Keep up the good work!!
 

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