Needs to be said... sell the DAMN motorcycle.

[MJ DeMarco]

Ugh, another day another story of someone's life getting totally f*cked up all because they needed to ride a motorcycle.

It seems like every week I hear a story from someone a degree or two away from my life gets into a horrific motorcycle accident. A few weeks ago the story was death. This week's story is someone whose looking at never walking again, brain damage, and all kinds of crap.

The worst of it? He wore a helmet and like many motorcycle accidents, it was NOT his fault.

Want to screw up your life permanently or worse, even die? Buy a motorcycle and ride it. And then be stubborn about it.

Now before you curse me a heathen, I've owned a motorcycle. And I loved it.

However I didn't love the fact that someone else's mistake would kill me, or permanently disfigure me.

I soon realized that owning one was a deathwish, and when some 92 year old grandma runs me over paralyzing me, I didn't want to regret the next 40 years of my life.

To this day, I DO NOT regret selling my motorcycle. I now look at riding a bike like smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. Yea, no way.

What I did was find an alternative to get the same rush, the same feeling, the same windy freedom.

At first it was a convertible car.

Now it's a street legal side by side UTV.

Now I can get the same enjoyment of riding a motorcycle without the stress AND I can ride in the hills.



Sell the damn bike.

Now go think. You will thank me later. (Inside joke some folks here might recognize, LOL).

 

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[Andy Black]

I know my avatar is of a bike trip. It’s not because we were riding bikes, but because of the trip. I’ve been meaning to write a thread about (business) learnings riding motorbikes.

I rode for over a decade. It was an instant decision to stop riding when our then two year old wouldn’t stop hugging me when I put him to bed. I had to get in with him till he fell asleep. I’d been away for two days for the first time in his life and that was the effect it had on him.

I went from die-hard biker riding through Irish winters to getting rid of it immediately. I’ve never ridden since and have no intention of doing so.

 

[Jon L]

I rode a motorcycle back and forth to work for years. Eventually sold it. What made me sell? Same reason as you.

I had talked to a coworker of mine who also used to ride. He witnessed a rider die right in front of him on the freeway. The guy was coming down a long hill. His front wheel started to oscillate, eventually making him lose control of the bike. He ended up skidding across the freeway into a bunch of boulders. His body contorted in a way that could mean nothing other than instant death.

Didn't take much 'thinking time' to process that one. I'll never have another bike.

 

[Andy Black]

I disagree that most motorcycle accidents are caused by someone else. I think most are caused by stupid decisions by the pilot. I don’t have data and I’m not going to look for it. I’m basing it on observing myself and groups of other riders.

When a group of lads get together you can bet your bottom dollar that ego rears its head.

On a motorbike you’re always an inch from death. That inch is a twist of your right wrist, doing something stupid at the wrong time for the wrong reasons.

I’ve been in groups going faster than anyone would normally - because the guy in front is worrying about the guys behind, and because the guys behind are trying to keep up with the guy in front.

Competitiveness is almost a given when lads get together, but running round a track too fast for the rep is one thing, blasting down country roads (or slicing through traffic) is quite another.

A rocket and an ego is a deadly cocktail.

Maybe I will create that thread after all...

 

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[Andy Black]

I’ve been off bikes for 5 years now. In that time I’ve seen the effect losing my brother had on my parents, and me.

I used to have the gung-ho attitude that if I’m dead I won’t know.

Jesus. What a selfish prick I was.

 

[MTF]

First of all I completely agree with the fact that riding a motorcycle is dangerous, and it can lead to VERY real consequences such as death or becoming disabled....

But so can snowboarding, parashute jumping, rafting, paragliding, MTB downhil and bmx racing and other extreme sports...

Should we stop engaging in these activities all-together?

The point is - sure the death and trauma are very real possibilities...

But ultimately that's why people engage in extreme sports isn't it?

We like to overcome adversity - some enjoy it less, some more, but there is something very thrilling about being an inch from a tragedy and still surviving.

As a person who has engaged in various extreme sports, I believe that many extreme sports are only as dangerous as you want them to be and actually "normal" sports like soccer, rugby, or boxing are more dangerous on average (at least injury-wise).

Some extreme sports do have on average a higher risk and some have a lower. It mostly comes down to what is called "objective hazards." Climbing is a good example of such a sport that you can actually compare to riding a motorcycle.

In climbing in general, objective hazards are things like rockfall, lightning strike, or an unexpected loose rock. Those are the things you can't really predict. They can happen to anyone, an expert or not, because it's usually about being in the wrong place at the wrong time (unlike subjective hazards that are human-caused incidents). This is pretty much what @SamRussell pointed out—each time you ride a motorcycle, you expose yourself to objective hazards, too (drunk drivers, people texting, people driving carelessly, etc.).

But there are various climbing activities you can engage in and the risk varies tremendously. Mountaineering, and particularly climbing in the highest mountains, comes with a very high risk of objective hazards. This is akin to riding a motorbike. No matter how good you are, how prepared you are, how defensive you are, the world's best alpinists still die each year. Meanwhile, bouldering, particularly indoors or even outdoors with normal precautions, is pretty much as safe as any other normal sport.

As an ex-climber (for the time being or forever, my interests in sports are often shifting), IMO, mountaineering is not worth it in the same way as riding a motorbike isn't.

Yes, you get a huge high, the sense of accomplishment has to be immense (note that I never engaged in proper mountaineering), but the decision to do so despite a huge number of objective hazards, the perspective of death and the pain you would cause your loved ones is just plain dumb and selfish. There are many other, much safer ways you can satisfy your need for adrenaline.

You might not understand it no matter how many people tell you about it. I don't wish it on anyone ever, but sometimes only a personal tragedy can change your mind, which is sad and shows how delusional we humans are in our need to deny the very real possibility of death. I guess that this sense of invincibility comes with youth and wanes as you age, take on more responsibility and suffer personal losses that make death a very real prospect.

Maybe one day I'll look back at myself and think ''Woah, I was very, very wrong about this...''

About a year and a half ago I was climbing what a guidebook said was an easy, well-bolted multi-pitch route. Because of the features and the height of the rock, it wasn't possible to see the entire route. But it was graded as very easy, so we decided to climb it. Somewhere in the middle of it I realized that I had either missed a bolt or that it had never been there in the first place.

With each move up, I was farther and farther away from the last piece of protection until it wouldn't matter anymore—a fall would be deadly either way, protection or not. And then I climbed onto a super sketchy, crumbly slab, with the rope pulling more and more taut, making it even harder to climb, knowing that a misstep meant certain death. I eventually found a tree that I used as an anchor and safely belayed my partner who was the second, but to this day when I think about it, I can't help but think how lucky I was.

If I had known about the risk, I wouldn't have climbed this route (which is what we did many times before, skipping routes we weren't sure about). But this section was invisible from the ground, and when I found myself in this risky situation, it was too late to retreat.

Maybe when you're reading it, you think to yourself: "what an awesome, badass story." And of course, in a way, it is, like any story with a real possibility of death. But at the same time, it's frightening and so damn stupid. A single misstep, which was very likely in this crumbly terrain, would mean that I would have been dead for a year and a half already, dying on an "easy" route, as confident in my abilities to climb it as a motorcycle rider in their abilities to avoid an accident. This wasn't my only climbing experience with a possibility of death or a very serious accident, and I was generally a very cautious and prepared climber with a low level of acceptable risk.

Each time you ride your motorcycle, you're putting yourself in a pretty similar situation. Living to tell the tale might sound cool, but one day you might not be so lucky.

 

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[MitchM]

I'm cringing right now thinking about how I rode around in Chiang Mai with no helmet and sandals. That was only two years ago.

 

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[Readerly]

My wife made me ditch my motorcycle when she got pregnant. Once in a while, I fantasize about getting another one. Then I look at my daughter.

 

[million$$$smile]

I ride. And I enjoy it.
And I know it is dangerous. I really try to ride defensively as much a I can. But, when the biz sometimes gets to me, I put my helmet on on take a ride through the hills.

Of course, I grew up riding bicycles without helmets and elbow pads, and when I was a kid, no one used seat belts, if they had them in the car. And we never had lanyards and harnesses to tie off to in construction. Sure, it is safer now, and that is good.
Perhaps before long it will be illegal to climb a tree in the back yard without safety netting.

I dunno. What some people call crazy now, was normal at one time.

Guess I am a heathen

 

[GIlman]

Both @Iwokeup who is an ER physician and myself, a radiologist physician who reads the trauma CT’s for a very busy ER have seen the ugliest side of motorcycles. We see it literally daily.

For the very few motorcycles on the road, they make up a huge volume of the bad traumas that come in.

It’s unusual to actually find real injuries from a car crash. Most CT’s are negative. It’s not uncommon at all to see injuries from motorcycle crashes, many severe, many life altering.

I agree that everything in life is risk vs reward. The real issue with motorcycles is that people way underestimate the risk while over estimating the reward. This underestimation is both in the frequency as well as the severity of accidents.

We all do things with added risks, I fly planes, which is about 1/10 as risky as riding a motor bike. But still more risky than driving. But here is the thing I look at now days, what is the utility I get from the risks I take.

At the end of the day a motorcycle provides the same basic transportation as a car. The both get you there at about the same speed. Flying on the other hand, although more risky than driving, provides a utility I can’t get by driving. That is the ability to create time to do more things. Something that would take me all day to do driving I could be done by noon flying. So the trade off of risk for utility is made.

Would I be willing to accept the risk of flying if the utility of driving was the same. Short answer is....NO!!

 

[Red]

I sold my baby earlier this year.... used to be that the enjoyment far outweighed the anxiety... Fountain Hills (and the last 5 years worth of distracted drivers on their goddamned phones) finally flipped the equation for me.

 

[Jon L]

I disagree that most motorcycle accidents are caused by someone else. I think most are caused by stupid decisions by the pilot. I don’t have data and I’m not going to look for it. I’m basing it on observing myself and groups of other riders.

When a group of lads get together you can bet your bottom dollar that ego rears its head.

On a motorbike you’re always an inch from death. That inch is a twist of your right wrist, doing something stupid at the wrong time for the wrong reasons.

I’ve been in groups going faster than anyone would normally - because the guy in front is worrying about the guys behind him, and because the guys behind are trying to keep up with the guy in front.

Competitiveness is almost a given when lads get together, but running round a track too fast for the rep is one thing, blasting down country roads (or slicing through traffic) is quite another.

A rocket and an ego is a deadly cocktail.

Maybe I will create that thread after all...

yeah...I agree with you. Most motorcycle accidents are avoidable, even ones where the motorcyclist isn't 'at fault.'

If you drive like everything can kill you (because it can), you'll greatly reduce your chance of an accident.

• That car about to turn right, into your lane? Assume that it won't see you and that it will cut you off. Slow down and move over.
• Can't see around the car in front of you? Back off until you can.
• Pissed off driver behind you, riding your bumper? Pull to the side and let him go past
• Can't see over the top of a hill? Go slowly enough so that you can stop for the car parked in the middle of the road just past your sight distance.

Even still, the chance of dying in a motorcycle accident is 17x higher than if you were in a car. Those odds suck.

 

[James Klymus]

I had my first bike I was 18 years old. I went to the motorcycle safety class and got my license a little while after I turned 18, then I bought a bike a month or so after the class.

It was a 1988 Honda CBR1000F "Hurricane" and it was a bad a$$ bike, But WAY WAY too much bike for me at that beginner level, as my first bike. You should never buy a liter bike or even a 600cc bike as a first bike. But I didnt listen and I bought it.



That thing weighed 7-800 pounds and I dropped it like 6 times the first day I got it. I could hardly get that thing back off the ground (I was like 115 lbs and super skinny). I even broke the clutch cover and probably 3 quarts of oil poured over the garage floor of my parents house lmao.

I had bought the bike in July and on Sep. 23rd, just a few months later I crashed it. I know I took pictures of the bike after it was wrecked but I cant find them.

I was sitting in a left turn lane in rush hour traffic, and anyone who's ridden before knows that your motorcycle wont always trigger the sensor for the left arrow. The light turned green and for whatever reason in my head I went, thinking I had the green arrow but i didnt.

Thank god it was a very low speed accident. I turned left right into a poor old lady's drivers door and basically T Boned her.

My bike was totaled and the poor woman couldnt get out of her drivers door, because I had smashed it shut. Luckily there were people that stopped and emergency services helped her get out. She wasnt injured just shaken up cause she thought she had killed me.

As for me, I was wearing a helmet and a jacket with armor plates, so other than a scuff on my knee I was totally fine.

While that bike was the fastest thing I had driven so far, And I felt cool driving it around and telling everyone I rode a motorcycle, I ultimately was scared of that bike. I knew it was a mistake to have bought it and that it was wayy too much for me.

The day I crashed was the day after my 19th birthday, and I thought to my self "I'm only 19 and I just wrecked my motorcycle. If I ride the rest of my life, I'm almost 100% going to have another crash, and next time I may not come away from it just shaken up and with a scuffed up knee. I may die a violent, unnecessary and early death. Or be permanently disabled."

I took that crash as a favor from god, or the universe. I was very lucky. I got the money I paid for it back from my insurance, and I walked away from it a little scratched and shaken up, but ultimately OK and with an important, tough lesson.

I recently got the itch for another bike, but that accident is still fresh on my mind. I think I'll pass.

I don't think I'll ever buy another bike again. I'll stick with fast cars.

 

[Andy Black]

I'll have to play devils advocate here...

First of all I completely agree with the fact that riding a motorcycle is dangerous, and it can lead to VERY real consequences such as death or becoming disabled....

But so can snowboarding, parashute jumping, rafting, paragliding, MTB downhil and bmx racing and other extreme sports...

Should we stop engaging in these activities all-together?

The point is - sure the death and trauma are very real possibilities...

But ultimately that's why people engage in extreme sports isn't it?

We like to overcome adversity - some enjoy it less, some more, but there is something very thrilling about being an inch from a tragedy and still surviving.

The feeling of beating the fear of death for a second is MINDBLOWING.

I think that's the whole point.

The risk is very real... and I think that is the EXACT reason, why people like extreme sports.

And sure riding can be compared to cigaretes... maybe even cocaine - the dopamine rush from it is much more powerful, than the rush from smoking.

Maybe one day I'll look back at myself and think ''Woah, I was very, very wrong about this...''

But for now:

I didn’t ride because it was dangerous. I rode because I wanted to get better at it, then because I loved getting a bend right and feeling my knee gently scraping the tarmac. Being close to death didn’t factor into it.

It wasn’t until I became a parent that it occurred to me that it’s not just about me. And I’m ashamed to say it wasn’t until our youngest was two years old.

And now I’ve seen the devastation losing my younger brother had on my parents I’m dumbfounded I didn’t think of my parents and family as I got a few thrills.

Oh, and I now know the worry I put my mum through when I was riding the bike for a decade. It’s the same worry I have when the kids are out playing near the road in our estate.

I didn’t think I’d change my mind either. But I did in an instant.

I rode bikes. I don’t identify as a biker. I identify as a dad, parent, husband, son, business owner...

Just my 2c.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

you’re going to die someday

There are much worse outcomes than death.

Some aren't so lucky and end up paralyzed with traumatic brain injuries and can never speak a coherent sentence again—all because of some distracted moron who got 3 years probation for their negligence.

Oh BTW, that was my next door neighbor who also was vehement proponent of his motorcycle freedom, the whole Harley archetype complete with the leather and bandanas. Yet, the last 17 years of his life has been without freedom, without coherence, and he's become a burden to his wife as he needs to wear diapers.

Oh, but at least he got to drive to Walmart on his bike 17 years ago.

If you could ask him (you cannot) he would have gladly chosen death.

and it feels amazing

Wearing diapers don't feel amazing. What also won't feel amazing is having the back 40 years of your life stuck sucking on a straw on a gurney, all because Tommy TikTok thought it necessary to video his latest stream while driving. What makes it worse is you have much more to lose...

through the Mexican jungle and through the canyons.

Probably one of the only ways to do it with some peace and serenity... completely away from humanity.

At least you got that right.

 

[Kruiser]

I think some doctors and EMTs call them "donor cycles." I read somewhere that riders account for a shockingly high amount of organ donations. Takes about 2 seconds to go from "healthy 25 year old in perfect health" to organ donor.

 

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[GIlman]

If you ride a motorbike long enough you will almost certainly have a life altering injury. In a typical summer weekend I see more mangled motorcycle riders than car crash victims. That in spite of the fact that there are over 20x more cars on the road than bikes.

There are enough other exciting things to do where the only moron you have to worry about is yourself. Learn to fly and then just be a smart pilot. Almost zero chance of another moron pilot crashing into you. Your safety is all on you.

 

[biggeemac]

Thank you !! Not worth it. I always recommend against motorcycles, even if you ARE a baller.

 

[Rabby]

Since I grew up with a lot of people in the insurance business, I knew the danger from a young age. Otherwise, I probably would have been interested in them. The big picture is horrifying, and I would not even consider using them on public roads.

0.7% of vehicle miles driven accounting for as much as 40% of road fatalities? In other words, far fewer motorcycles are on the roads (in the US), but the chance of a fatal accident is much higher.

Thank you for bringing it to people's attention.

 

[Contrarian]

There's a lot of nuance when it comes to bikes and risk.

I've been riding for 12 years. I didn't even get my car license until about four years ago. To this day I feel more comfortable riding than driving.

In that time, I've:

• Commuted in and out of London in rush hour
• Gone on countless fast rides and multi-day trips
• Ridden in torrential rain, snow and ice (at one time I lived in the middle of nowhere and had my bike as my only transport, 12 months a year)
• Done trackdays
• Probably put in over 200,000 miles total

And in all those years I've come off my bike exactly three times.

Once, when I tried to do a U-turn on a hill and fell over at walking speed (the day after I picked up my first bike).

Once when I gave it a bit too much throttle on cold, new tyres on a wet road pulling out of a junction and caused a tankslapper (pure inexperience - about three months after I started riding).

And once trying to get my knee down in autumn with wet leaves all over the road (youthful stupidity and lack of judgement - exactly five months to the day after I got my license).

In the first two cases I was completely uninjured. The third accident was horrific, but I was extremely lucky considering the circumstances. I slid into a tree at ~65mph and broke my leg in eight places, dislocated my ankle and hip. I had an external fixator for six months, a cast for two months more after that, and it was 2-3 years before I could walk normally without pain and swelling again. Now I have arthritis and limited mobility in that ankle, which has a couple of consequences. I have to do regular physio and I can't run, jump or do anything else high impact (at least, not without paying for it in soreness later).

That crash was twelve years ago tomorrow, and I've never, ever come off a bike since. But I got back on the bike the day after the cast came off. And I wouldn't trade my biking experiences for a fully functioning ankle, even if I quit riding today. They've been such an integral part of life's joys.

The problem is not that bikes are dangerous in and of themselves, but that the consequences for error can be so catastrophic. The solution is not to make those errors that lead to crashes in the first place. On average (yes, I've researched it), you get 10 "oh shit" close calls for every crash you're likely to experience. If you get one of those moments, it's a big warning sign that you should avoid whatever situation caused it to happen. I've known people who've ridden for 30-40+ years and never had an accident.

Almost all crashes are avoidable, and that includes those caused by other people. You can't control what they do, but you can anticipate what they will or may do so as to put yourself in a position to avoid it.

The skill ceiling is much, much higher for bikes than for cars. Once you are skilled enough (and have excellent judgment), most of the risk differential disappears. In a study of UK police drivers & riders (widely considered the most skilled motorcyclists in the world), they discovered that being a police driver or rider is about equally risky. Riders are slightly more likely to be injured, but drivers are slightly more likely to crash.

If you want to have a safe biking career, treat it as seriously as you treat your actual career/business, and the study and practice which goes into it. It is also entirely possible to be both fast and safe (see: those police motorcyclists), and equally, slow and dangerous.

I also never - ever - get on a bike without full leathers, boots, gloves, back protector, helmet and soon I will add an airbag vest. But the plan is to never need any of them.

We regularly talk about how fallacious it is to claim that it's not worth starting a business because "95% of businesses fail!" There are blueprints for how not to become a statistic in every endeavour, including motorcycling.

(But speaking of statistics, horse riding is four times more dangerous than motorcycling.)

I've also never personally known anyone who died riding, or who's had an injury even close to as serious as mine. And I know and have known a lot of bikers, including racers.

Some caveats:

If I'd never ridden before, I probably wouldn't start now. Getting over that skill and judgment threshold is the most dangerous part. For that reason I would hesitate to recommend anyone take it up as a new hobby.

But then, I wouldn't take up skiing, snowboarding, mountaineering or any other extreme sports now either. Or even rugby. I don't like injuries or danger and would love to live for 1,000 years if I could. I simply don't feel that motorcycling is particularly dangerous for me, given my experience and judgment.

Do I ever think about quitting while I'm ahead? Sure. I have a whole lot more to lose now than when I was 21. But I stand by my point that motorcycling can be a fairly low-risk activity.

 

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[Redwolf]

I have been riding sportbikes since 1995. I've crashed 8 times? Once doing about 130mph+ on the track. 6th gear, wide open throttle, knee on the ground, WOO - now THAT's a rush!

I may have a bit more perspective on track riding safety than most. My business does photos and videos at trackdays and amateur racing across California. I've personally attended guessing around 400+ motorcycle trackdays/amateur races since 2006, and my business (my staff) have covered many more. I've seen countless crashes at the track, up close.

Everything we do in life is managing risk vs reward. Want to start your own business and potentially make lots of money, or keep a stable "safe" job? Risk vs reward. Want to commute safely, buy a big SUV. Low risk, low reward. Want to commute and have lots of fun (or save big on gas)? Motorcycle. Big reward, big risk. Smoke cigarettes? Eat fast food? The list goes on...

What I'm getting at is that riding on the track is managing risk, while maintaining the reward. Downside is the cost and gear needed. If you ride backroads or canyons, as we call them in Southern California, then its cheap, just gas and tire wear. But the risk is that if you crash, you are likely to hit something at the edge of the road - either a canyon wall or guardrail, or a driver crosses the double yellow, gravel in road, the list is endless. The response time of first responders is much, much slower than at the track. At the track, there is runoff if you "run out of talent", and there is an ambulance idling on site, ready to go. Is riding at the track safe? Hell no, but safer than riding on the streets.

@MJ DeMarco is managing his risk by substituting the riskier motorcycle for the UTV, while maintaining a similar level of reward. Which looks super fun by the way! I have managed mine by not riding on the public streets anymore. I do 100% track riding. That's me in my avatar... on the same bike I tossed doing 130mph after rebuilding it.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

I would think riding a dirt-bike off-road is very safe

I'm going to guess any activity AWAY from other idiots would be much safer.

This really isn't about motorcycle riding, but about other people who make motorcycle riding dangerous.

You're probably safer jumping off a cliff in a windsuit than riding a motorcycle in Friday rush hour traffic.

Riding a dirt bike in the middle of nowhere = safer.

Being away from distracted Tiktok fools = safer.

 

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[Boogie]

Oh..
Accidents involving bikes can occur, and unfortunately, they can sometimes result in fatalities. However, it's crucial to remember that numerous factors contribute to these accidents, such as traffic conditions, infrastructure, rider behavior, and adherence to safety guidelines.

Yes, numerous factors. Numerous factors outside of your control.

Motorcycles - Injury Facts

Motorcycles were 3% of all registered vehicles, but accounted for 14% of all traffic fatalities and 17% of all occupant fatalities in 2021.

injuryfacts.nsc.org

"Although motorcycles make up only 3% of all registered vehicles and 0.6% of all vehicle miles traveled in the United States, motorcyclists accounted for 14% of all traffic fatalities, 17% of all occupant fatalities, and 3% of all occupant injuries in 2021. A factor that directly influences motorcycle fatality trends is helmet use. (Explore helmet use trends)

Fatalities among motorcycle riders and passengers increased 8% from 2020 to 2021, while the rate per 100 million vehicle miles traveled decreased by 2%. Over the last 10 years, deaths have increased 19%, while death rates have increased 29%. The number of motorcycle fatalities now stands at 5,932 and the rate is 30.05 per 100 million vehicle miles."

So for about 1/2 of 1 percent of all miles driven, motorcycles make up 14% of all traffic fatalities.

In contrast to the the number of motorcycle fatalities which ended up at 6,084, the total for all road user fatalities in 2021 was 42,939. Also, the death rate per 100 million vehicle miles is 1.37 vs 30.05 for motorcycles.

The charts below are great. The Deaths by Road User description and chart are particularly applicable.

Fatality Facts 2021: State by state

A summary of fatality statistics about state by state compiled by IIHS from 2021 Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS) data.

www.iihs.org

 

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[Jon822]

A lot of the comments here demonstrate how little is understood about risk. First, risk analysis is independent of individual outcomes. If you played one round of Russian roulette and won and your conclusion was that it was a smart decision, then you don't understand risk. Second, it doesn't matter at all about the existence of other hypothetical risks that are higher than motorcycle riding. Regardless of your beliefs about an afterlife, this is the only life you're guaranteed. Are you willing to take a much higher risk of dying or suffering serious, permanent injury just so you can drive a motorcycle instead of a car?

If your answer is yes, then at least make the choice with your eyes wide open: you are always at the mercy of the drivers around you and you are trusting that they are observant, giving driving their full attention, and that they understand the consequences of taking their eyes off the road even for a few seconds. One thing to note is that our intuition is built by our evolutionary adaption to our environment. We have no intuition about speeds like 50 mph because it is only recently that we could travel that fast. To put it into perspective, 50 mph is 73.3 ft/sec. The math here is very simple: 73 times the number of seconds distracted is how many feet you will travel without looking at the road. What does this have to do with intuition? We don't have a built-in fear of distracting ourselves for a few seconds when driving at 50+ mph because evolution hasn't had a chance to add it to our repertoire. So all of those drivers that you're trusting don't think anything about checking their phone or something else for a few seconds because you have to consciously remind yourself that you will travel (73*number_of_seconds) feet blind or distracted.

 

[Jon822]

My point was 14% of traffic fatalities are motorbikes (US figures) meaning 86% are not.

Of course they're more dangerous, you haven't got a steel cage around you when you're on one, however you are still more likely to die driving a car.

So I'm not denying probability, merely highlighting it.

Here's the part that you're missing: it's called standardization. Or often simplified to "comparing apples to apples." The reason standardization is so important is that it allows for accurate comparisons. In its absence, you make false conclusions like you posted.

Here's an example: if I make $1/second and you make $20/hour, without standardizing these numbers and using your above logic, you would conclude that you make more than me because $20>$1. But this is comparing apples to oranges. In order to compare apples to apples, we have to have the same denominator so we're comparing the same units. When you convert my $1/second to $/hour, I make $3600/hour, which is obviously more.

If you're going to compare the risk involved with different vehicles, you have to adjust the fatality percentages to reflect the difference in occurrence rate. Or to put it another way, you have to (as MJ pointed out) calculate the number of accidents that would occur given an EQUAL number of miles driven.

 

[heavy_industry]

If you're ready to risk life and limb to get high on freedom, buy a small F*cking plane and go fly with it.

Here's how it compares to a motorcycle:

• Same risk, or slightly lower
• 100x more adrenaline and freedom
• You won't get pulled over
• Nobody is going to kill you - you die from your own lack of skills
• 0% chance of ending up like @MJ DeMarco 's neighbor - any and all crashes come with a 100% death rate money-back warranty

If you insist on not having a roof over your head when driving, get a convertible and call it a day.

 

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[Ernman]

I almost bought a motorcycle twice. The first time I was a young ensign in the Navy stationed in San Diego. Fresh out of the Naval Academy and full of testosterone. Test drove the bike in the morning. At noon I got a call from the CA Highway Patrol. A Sailor was dead, one of my Sailors, and they found a piece of paper with my name and number on it. After I ID'd the body, I took him home to his family for the funeral. The guy with the bike called me after I got back to see if I was going to buy the bike.

It took me @ 15 years to squirrel up the courage again. This time in HI. Guess what happened? The husband of one of my Sailors was run off the road on his motorcycle. Almost lost his leg. They were a young couple, he was a Marine, but not for much longer. Their entire lives changed in an instant because someone in a car wasn't paying attention.

So both times I was about ready to buy a bike, something very bad happened to someone near my orbit. I decided "someone" was sending me a message.

A couple years ago a good friend of mine was run off the road on his bike. It almost killed him. Took months of surgeries and rehab. This guy survived a heart attack but almost died because he insisted on riding is motorcycle. Harley riders die just as easily as crotch rocket riders.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

I like the idea of MJ’s UTV!!

It really is nearly the same feeling, and far more relaxing. Open cockpit, engine roar, wind in your face, no windshield. And I'm in a cage.

I really try to ride defensively as much a I can.

Unfortunately in the grand scheme of things, that probably won't matter much. You're surrounded by distracted drivers. I sold my bike before the smartphone zombification, I can't imagine how bad it is now. Stay safe my friend, may the gods be with you.

And lets not pretend Lambos/fast cars are not in the same category.

They aren't. One has a margin of error, the other does. I know, because I used that margin to survive a horrific accident that, if on a bike, I wouldn't be here.

 

[biophase]

You lost me there my friend. One has a better survival rate but both still in the same category of increased fatalities.

How many celebs killed or seriously injured in exotic fast cars we can go all the way back to James Dean and as recent as last week. Do I still want one. Hell yea.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oECVrMKaorY

I’m afraid I don’t understand your point either. Being in a car whether it is an exotic or regular car, you have a much higher chance of survival compared to being on a motorcycle.

Take a Lambo and a motorcycle, drive them both to 30 mph and slam both into a parked car. Which person will have a better chance of survival?

My biggest worry in my exotic is that it’s so low to the ground that I worry people don’t see me. And I’m don’t like the low hood angle and chance of SUVs rolling over me.

 

[Andy Black]

Yeah, from the rational stand-point I completely agree with you.

I guess I just haven't matured enough yet...

Go spend time with your loved ones. Don’t just think about you not being able to hug them, also think about what would happen if you were taken from *them*. What effect would that have on them?

If you can’t picture it then maybe ask the policemen, firemen, doctors, or nurses how they feel about motorbikes and telling next of kin. I know a guy who left the police force because he could no longer knock on people’s doors to deliver bad news.

I remember turning up to a hospital to see a friend who’d had a big smash. I rode 200 miles to get there and came on the ward in my bike leathers with helmet under my arm. I could see the disapproval from the nursing staff, but just ignored it. I now have a better understanding of what they were thinking. They were thinking of my friend’s poor mum who was at his bedside, of my mum, and of their own kids.