My startup progress that will buy me a Ferrari

[WJK]

I read through your thread and I understand why you feel stuck. You are tired of this very long project. I can't tell you how many times over the years, I've had to jump in and help by doing at least part of the work myself. It's a classic situation for the person building a business. It's all part of being the boss.

(When the cook doesn't show up, the boss must flip the burgers. That's why I never wanted to buy a fast-food shop.)

But, I must say that I'm not too good (or too important) to do anything that I would hire another person to do. I'm in the real estate business. If a toilet needs to be cleaned, where is the brush? I'll do it. If I see trash, I pick it up and properly dispose of it. I also make sure that everyone has the planning and the materials to do their jobs -- and the monies to pay for the workers and those materials. Most of all, I make sure that I'm cheerfully doing all the parts of my job.

No, I don't always get what I think I'm paying for from people who I hire. Yes, there are times I must step in and help with the hands-on tasks -- like you have had to do. I'm saying that you're in good company.

Just don't give up. My Grandmother used to remind me that it's always darkest before the dawn. Keep putting in the time. It all counts.

Also, find some kind of joy in what you are doing. If the happiness in the whole project is contained in a someday-sexy-car, it will be hard to continue to move forward. I have learned that happiness is all about the journey, not the ending. I know it sounds trite, but believing that truism makes the daily activities go better. It's no longer just a grind.

 

[AppMan]

Hi all
So as many of you know I have a tech startup that if it get executed and built right , might be a multi million worth. But I was and still in my 9 to 5 job , beside my limited experience in entrepreneurship, and my high talk to do ratio tendency I decided to get a mentor.
The first mentor seem good on paper whoever he wasnt competent and didn't add anything to my knowledge. So I dumped him and ask the org to assign another one, this one was gold , he is already fastlaner with two large companies under his belt. Very supportive and creative. So I decided to go with him .
My strategy is to build my startup plus monetize my web design business to bring me enough income to leave my 5-9 rat race cage.
Sh*t , it is already 12:13, will continue tomorrow .

 

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[AppMan]

Last week was tuff for me, all the hired developers just left after their first tasks, although they look confidant and knowledgeable, but on the first real task they seem they dont know what to do, many freelancers seem to do the following :
bid low
win the bid
re-negotiate the terms .
That led me to waste many days , also I let many developer access to my code base , which mean now many have it , luckily I only allow them to either access front or back end repos but not both .

However I found how important to be a good software engineer to be able to manage such a project, I am basically engineering all the borderlines while developers job is coding based on my guidelines.
The experience I am getting is priceless, I advise any software develop out there to try build a software solution from tech to marketing in other words SaaS company, even if you fail you will get a wealth of knowledge .

 

[AppMan]

Today I have done from create DB architecture, although my mentor suggested to go with free database, but since my experience with Microsoft stack is better ,I decided to go with that for now until my app start making some profit then I ll switch so something cheaper or free such as MySql or NoSql Db .
Other things I did :
Setup my agile board
Setup My trello board
Deciding what features my app should have
Then deciding which of these features require for MVP (Minimal Viable Product) .

How I am doing it with 9 to 5 job ?
1- Exercising at 9 PM so I feel energetic after that.
2- Taking green tea pills at the evening ( not good but I am also doing it to loose weight )
3- Just executing: I stopped doing more plans and started executing feature by feature .
4- using drawing book to draw my mockups , it help me when I have no desire to look at the screen . Also I felt really creative doing that.
This weekend I am planning to finish the API so I can move after that to client side development and mobile app development .
Planning on outsourcing some of the work to India ,but I want to make sure all the backbone is done by me.
Have to admit , I really in need for more sleep. hopefully will find a way to sleep at least 7:30 hours daily.

 

[AppMan]

Today one of the tech giants released a new feature in their popular product that is exactly do what I was planning to make my app do, and for FREE !
now my product has to have more feature to compete with this giant tech company product, lucky it is not their main focus and most likely they will not add a lot capabilities to this feature in their product, even though their history show that anything they release people like it and use it.

 

[AppMan]

It was good two months, hired many developers (freelancers ) who started doing progress in my project, in fact I am now more happy and more confidant that my product will see success, the development could be faster, and I am increasing the speed gradually, this Monday a full time developer will start, he is not a freelancer, instead I used outsourcings company to find a developer, the company looks legit and my condition was to communicate directly with the developer. my freelancers also working but on slower pace.
I am spending money since they are working hourly rate, I tried fixed amount , but they cant make it per requirements, also they cut corners internally .
Here is the good things:

• Learned project managements and Software Development management.
• Learned to spend money on my projects, used to have my projects built for almost free, which I think it contributed to why it never get converted to real business
• Happy that I ll have a startup , will it make money ? I dont know , but I will be happy just to have a SaaS product in the market .
• Somehow my scope to the life increased, sound like when you are manager or business owner have wider angel to look at the life.

Things went bad :

• Developers work have bugs, and these bugs get fixed and create new bugs. part of that I am to blame , I dont have QA .
• Spending is increased , and now I want to release the project to get grant before I am out of money
• My vision changed many time which lead to postphone release date of MVP.
• Each new developer I have to get him familiar with the product.

 

[OleksiyRybakov]

At my current job as a software developer I told my manager in the beginning to stop assigning me lots of tasks and stop trying to artificially increase the speed. Instead, I focused on the code quality and the architecture to prevent bugs. Although I had a lot of tasks to solve, this skyrocketed the speed so much that after one month I was able to solve tasks in a week instead of the planned month. After a year I could reduce my working time from 8 hours a day to 1 hour a day while still achieving every goal.

Software development is just like money management. You can either spend money (focus on speed) or invest it (focus on code quality and architecture).

Also, how exactly do you assign tasks? If the developers are more experienced it might be a great idea to let the developers co-decide on the tasks in a similar way to the Sprint Planning in the SCRUM framework.

 

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[WJK]

Getting more busy , have now :
1 part time QA
2 part time developers
1 out sourcing software company .
3 volunteers students working on marketing website of this software.

Spending is under control, moved from employment to work as contractor , doubled my hourly rate so I can now continue spending on my project.
Project is moving in acceptable speed , however there are many bugs to make it production ready. However I am investing this time in adding some good features and enable payment from day one , as without payment no chance to make money.
I am learning how to manage people , solve conflicts.
Getting too business although trying to put them on auto pilot as much as I can . My wife is not happy being too much busy and seem like my personal life is affecting.
The big expensive is the software company I hired from India , the only reason I hired them because it is very hard to find experienced freelancer in angular who know its ins and outs .Also the developer come with product manager so I don't have to deal with everything .

With working as contractor everything is good except the idea that every 6 month the contract can be renewed or terminated . however it is a risk I accepted, and will try to get into another contract .
Back to my SaaS , I am really excited to reach the point of release , the only blocker now is the front end bugs, if this get solved the MVP will be ready for the market.

Cloud wise , my bill start getting around 100 -200 per month because of custom domain that require a non paid plan. However it is giving me a huge benefit also good experience working on cloud resources . so for now I am okay .

Stop for a hot minute and pay attention to your wife. Take her on a date. It's a lot less disruptive and cheaper than a divorce. You need her on your side.

Edit: You can start by telling you how much you love her. That would go a long ways.

 

[AppMan]

Finally things started getting into the right direction :
My day job contract currently is not busy , in fact I am idle almost 6 hours out of 8 , which gave me time to work on my project , and I started with Front End project that is built in Angular 10 and TypeScript , and to my surprise most developers who worked on this project treat it as javascript project , too many variables , too many global methods , it was a big mess, and that cause to have too many issues and bugs .
So I started refactoring it to improve what I can improve, as if it is stay as it is now , we will never have it stable and working I ll wipe almost 60% of current code base .
The students team that was working on marketing website I almost gave up from them , just felt I am giving too much energy to them while they are careless, they really not interested in any thing to learn or do , they are just trying to do bare minimum to get a pass degree, although my agreement with them and their prof to have production ready website.

The Agency developer seemed slow until I started review her code everyday , now she is working more seriously also I threatened the agency that I ll not hire them again if they lower their coding standards and productivity to under what they show me in trial period.
Is it worth hiring agency for a developer or just hire a freelancer?
Pros :

• You know he will not leave any time soon and leave you in the middle.
• They try to finish the task in the end even if not in the quality you want , while freelancers just run and ghost you.
• More predictable and with this agency they have UX team that let developer build nice UIs while usually freelancers fell short here.

Cons :

• They charge more hourly rate (almost double).
• Not sure if they are really working 40 hour per week for your project.
• They ask upfront payment.

Things learned :
Do not trust any developer code until they prove themselves, there is a lot of way to make it look good but the code base is trash .
Never hire volunteer students for serious work , remember they all what care about is to pass their course.
Don't get overwhelmed with issues they might not seem bad as they look .
Don't burn bridges with people.

 

[AppMan]

Today I have moved from development stage to business and marketing stage, not because my SaaS is ready , but for the following reasons :

• Getting feedback from customers or perspective customer.
• Have feeling that I am running a business instead of just building another software.
• Many techies take development as fake action to avoid facing some business actions such as sales and marketing, and I want to prove to myself I am doing business part and not hiding behind the development.
• The development seem never ending and every day there is new competition to my features so it is better to move to business to start promoting.
• I am planning to market myself to other people as startup founder , and so far I cant call that since I lack many components such as website, customers, etc.
• My developers kind of reached the diminish point, they are no longer productive as before, so my payments still the same but their productivity almost reached zero and I want to stop this.

 

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[AppMan]

I am in the last days of my long off /unpaid time that I took it to focus on building my SaaS and other businesses and here is what I did and learned :
Things I did :
1- Was able finally to find good front-end and back-end developers to work on my SaaS, the front-end developer is relatively expensive but seems like there are few good angular developers out there. the next project I might use React for UI.
2- Created another business related to the Internet of things and was able to build the website, however as usual the challenge was to get customers. Also, I prototyped some stuff.
3- Learned some CAD tools and a lot of info about prototyping 3D printing, etc, for the first time in 12 years I had the time to install new apps and learn new skills beyond programming.
4- Learned that the competition is too high and any business requires your full time and full attention to get it up and running.
5- Stopped looking for side businesses because I reach the conclusion that I need a partner, simply you only have 24 hours per day.
6- I was planning to do some cold-calling training so far but didn't get a chance.
7- My focus shifted from learning more tech skills to building systems and businesses.

So far I think I have grown in these two months mentally and reached many conclusions, I became more realistic and focused when it comes to finding a business.

 

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[Tau Ceti]

Hey man,

I read your thread with great interest and please don't take any offense to what I am about to say, but it seems that you are not going anywhere with this business.

As far as I can tell, you still don't have a single user and your app/website is still not out to the public. My question is what are you waiting for?

You should focus on releasing the application no matter what before the end of this month.
Build 1 feature and 1 feature only. Just the one that provides value. That's it.

I know you may think you need more features but you don't.

What you need is users and customers and now you have neither.

So get you app out there, get some users, listen to their feedback and iterate on your idea. You don't need other devs at this stage, or QAs or product managers or development agencies.

What you need is 1 single paying customer to validate your idea.

Once you get to 100s of paying users,, and the workload becomes to much between support emails, bug-fixes and new features to build, then you can start hiring VAs to handle support requests.

And so on and so forth.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Your users don't give a crap if you use best practices and if you app is bug-free. Peter Levels, famously ran his SAAS without git for many years, had a single massive PHP file and one big CSS file, and he made a 100k per month with that.

Anyway, I don't mean to bring you down. It's tough out there but I am also building a SaaS and I have made some of the mistakes that you made so I just wanted to give you an outside opinion on your current situation.

Best of luck.

 

[AppMan]

So far I did a good progress, by working two hours before I go to my day job , however I feel like I cannot fight for all the fronts , as my MVP require :
1- Web interface (Viewer, Editor )
2- Mobile App (Design and Development)
3- Backend in cloud
4- Website to be used when I start contacting businesses.
5- Some Posters and brochures to educate businesses about this project.

So I did the following :
1- Divided my startup into these main projects.
2- Hire Virtual Assistance that practically she will be the product manager. However I gave her this title to she will not ask for high hourly rate.
3- Hire software developers that will help me progressing in all the fronts. I ll keep them minimally involved in backend as it is the core of my app, they will do mostly the fornt end projects.

What I noticed was that I enjoyed really developing my app. I haven't started from scratch building such a complex software from a long time, usually the companies I work on already have the product up and running, while here I am choosing what technology to use , and how to use it. However I have to be business minded and not sink myself in such details.

 

[AppMan]

Yesterday I meet with my mentor , my application progress to what I called pre-MVP version, I was happy with that, as I never have software app progressed to this stage, all my previous software ideas was stopped after planning and initial set up stage with some coding that doesn't reach any releasable feature.
my mentor was really supportive and giving good advise, however I found that he give similar idea to another startup but applied in different industry, I felt little betrayed here, and part of that was because I didnt ask him to sigh NDA as my org has advised me. He also said will help me bring me my first customers, which was a big relef for me as this was my hardest part in the past projects
So far I spent 1000$ and I estimate another $2000 need to be spent to have MVP version released, beside another $1000 for website and marketing materials.
My day job is sucking all my energy and left me with little time to work on this project. But at this stage , this is the best I can do.
I also got accepted some webdesign job and really have no time to finish it, luckly I make the completion time little long in the contract so I am kind of protected.
Lessons learned :
Always sign NDA when it is required
Try to push even if 5 minutes daily
Stay very organized by using project management tools , as it is very easy to forget to implement something or things get messy.

 

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[loop101]

Something strange happening , every time I give a developer access to my code (repo ) they apologize and say they cant do it , either they find it too hard to start or they think they have the code and they can do something with that , especially I dont sign them NDA , keep hiring and keep running out.
So yesterday I started coding myself, which is not good since as entrepreneur I should not spend my time coding , instead building the business, but since things are moving slow , I have to.
The booming in real estate market also scattered my attention , as the plan was to put some money in real estate, but it is taking too much time from .
I have created a schedule and have to respect this schedule to finish this app .

Are you using the cheapest developers? That might be the problem.

 

[Deleted50669]

Something strange happening , every time I give a developer access to my code (repo ) they apologize and say they cant do it , either they find it too hard to start or they think they have the code and they can do something with that , especially I dont sign them NDA , keep hiring and keep running out.
So yesterday I started coding myself, which is not good since as entrepreneur I should not spend my time coding , instead building the business, but since things are moving slow , I have to.
The booming in real estate market also scattered my attention , as the plan was to put some money in real estate, but it is taking too much time from .
I have created a schedule and have to respect this schedule to finish this app .

Could be a problem of inexperienced hires, or experienced hires that see the way your repo is architected and want no part of it because of lingering bad architectural patterns. Legacy code issues is the number on reason why you never hire bad devs. It will haunt you throughout the duration of your company's existence.

 

[AppMan]

I read through your thread and I understand why you feel stuck. You are tired of this very long project. I can't tell you how many times over the years, I've had to jump in and help by doing at least part of the work myself. It's a classic situation for the person building a business. It's all part of being the boss.

(When the cook doesn't show up, the boss must flip the burgers. That's why I never wanted to buy a fast-food shop.)

But, I must say that I'm not too good (or too important) to do anything that I would hire another person to do. I'm in the real estate business. If a toilet needs to be cleaned, where is the brush? I'll do it. If I see trash, I pick it up and properly dispose of it. I also make sure that everyone has the planning and the materials to do their jobs -- and the monies to pay for the workers and those materials. Most of all, I make sure that I'm cheerfully doing all the parts of my job.

No, I don't always get what I think I'm paying for from people who I hire. Yes, there are times I must step in and help with the hands-on tasks -- like you have had to do. I'm saying that you're in good company.

Just don't give up. My Grandmother used to remind me that it's always darkest before the dawn. Keep putting in the time. It all counts.

Also, find some kind of joy in what you are doing. If the happiness in the whole project is contained in a someday-sexy-car, it will be hard to continue to move forward. I have learned that happiness is all about the journey, not the ending. I know it sounds trite, but believing that truism makes the daily activities go better. It's no longer just a grind.

Thanks for your encouraging answer, I am not ashamed from programming , as my full time job is programing , the reason I dont want to do the programming for this project, is because this is never end task, yes software development is cycle with no ending point, and I dont want to be sinked in this cycle like many developers and they miss building the business .
I am not really doing this for buying expensive car, I love coding and designing app, but if you really slow in getting results you will loose interest over the time , and to be honest after some time you will loose the desire to start even a new project, because deep down you know it will never see the sun light.

Could be a problem of inexperienced hires, or experienced hires that see the way your repo is architected and want no part of it because of lingering bad architectural patterns. Legacy code issues is the number on reason why you never hire bad devs. It will haunt you throughout the duration of your company's existence.

My code follow the best industry practices, whether the backend or the front end , front end I use angular and to make it easy for them I asked them to just work inside one component and use unit test to verify their work , so they dont have to worry about the rest of the project, but even with that they seem not motivated, tasks are easy for any average developer , create form , verify data, send data to backend API , etc.
I dont have legacy code, try to keep the libraries up to date as possible, I have CI and CD in place to verify the PRs. and during interview I ask them all the question that make me sure they can handle the task , like I said I am developer myself so no one can fool me of how much the have experience when it come to tech stack I use.

 

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[AppMan]

At my current job as a software developer I told my manager in the beginning to stop assigning me lots of tasks and stop trying to artificially increase the speed. Instead, I focused on the code quality and the architecture to prevent bugs. Although I had a lot of tasks to solve, this skyrocketed the speed so much that after one month I was able to solve tasks in a week instead of the planned month. After a year I could reduce my working time from 8 hours a day to 1 hour a day while still achieving every goal.

Software development is just like money management. You can either spend money (focus on speed) or invest it (focus on code quality and architecture).

Also, how exactly do you assign tasks? If the developers are more experienced it might be a great idea to let the developers co-decide on the tasks in a similar way to the Sprint Planning in the SCRUM framework.

The way I assigned the tasks is by having a meeting and I describe all the details besides that I tonight some of the requirements if they are complex and show them some examples of how it should look like, most of the developers are intermediate developer and they need some guidance also they need some technical help for example yesterday one of the developers put one of the user interfaces in type script and it was slow but he couldn't know why it is a slow until I checked the code and I found his excessively using moment.js , I don't think what you are describing work here because they are developing something that doesn't exist they are not only maintaining the product like many developers work instead they have to build every interface from the ground up. And this is one of the problem I have until the developer start having good understanding of the product and it's ins and outs they leave.
I tried some high experience developers as a freelancers but they were worse than the others because they come to freelancing in hoping they can do a lot of work a short time because of their high experience but usually the work they delivered it's not as per the requirement because they don't spend enough time to analyze and think instead they just quickly get the idea and they try to implement it and usually such a good work is not a production work so I prefer less experience developers because they are more humble and they listen carefully to the requirement and take the project more seriously.

 

[WJK]

One backend and two front-end developers, the development is on tack, also I am back to my full-time contract job. at times feel overwhelmed, but happy that no crappy developer is there.
The inflation rate in Canada just going crazy, although the government keeps saying it is only 6%, the reality is different, I am thinking of renegotiating my contract at the end of this year, as I feel the spending in this way is not sustainable.
I promised my self to start learning cold calling, so far I didn't do it, but planning this week to take that phone and call this.

Cold calling is practice... and trying some A and B approaches. Keep your stats. You must know your numbers to know what works and what doesn't.

 

[AppMan]

Today I kind of reached another milestone in the development of this software, and it sound like I need to put more time than what I expected initially, so to get motivated myself more I have put these reasons why I need to get this software up and running :
1- I want at least one software product launched before I turn 40 y. I spend too much time starting non-finished applications .
2- Executing a startup is a huge experience that without it , you are just another dreamer. It is also what angel investors look at when they decide to give you a resume.
3- I need a starting point product, without product I cannot learn and improve.

Based on that I decided to focus and continue developing my product.
Big challenge :
- Time for coding

 

[Urabayen]

Web design is now a cheap commodity.

Look for other ideas

 

[Deleted74396]

Keep up the progress!

 

[AppMan]

So I decided to come back to work on my start-up , after I was frustrated because one of the tech giants doing something similar to what I am doing but I decided to do more modifications to add more value.

I post on freelancer advertise for a software developer to help me . Lucky finding software developer on this website is more easy than finding a good designer . Also I can interview them to know their level of experience. While I was checking why code to see where I left, I got a strong desire to start programming . especially I want to try the pub/sub framework as I never used it in my development career on micro service level .
I also installed the new SQL server and new VS 2019 , and was able to start programming. I want to program hand in hand with these developers, as I tried many of them before , all what care is getting the payment then they never show ( with a few exceptions ), then when you give them bad review they call you to modify it as they claim I ruined their income that feed their family.

Although I am planning to make it SaaS that run on cloud , however I am not designing it as cloud first, simply because cloud is too expensive . my plan is to rent virtual server that I can install all my component . or find some cheap cloud service.
Xamarin become really good and I ll use it instead of angular in building my apps , so the app will provide native experience.

 

[Raja]

So I decided to come back to work on my start-up , after I was frustrated because one of the tech giants doing something similar to what I am doing but I decided to do more modifications to add more value.

I post on freelancer advertise for a software developer to help me . Lucky finding software developer on this website is more easy than finding a good designer . Also I can interview them to know their level of experience. While I was checking why code to see where I left, I got a strong desire to start programming . especially I want to try the pub/sub framework as I never used it in my development career on micro service level .
I also installed the new SQL server and new VS 2019 , and was able to start programming. I want to program hand in hand with these developers, as I tried many of them before , all what care is getting the payment then they never show ( with a few exceptions ), then when you give them bad review they call you to modify it as they claim I ruined their income that feed their family.

Although I am planning to make it SaaS that run on cloud , however I am not designing it as cloud first, simply because cloud is too expensive . my plan is to rent virtual server that I can install all my component . or find some cheap cloud service.
Xamarin become really good and I ll use it instead of angular in building my apps , so the app will provide native experience.

try flutter

 

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[Raja]

Thank you , it is interesting , the downside you have to learn Dart lang , also my back-end is in C# so I want to stick on one tech stack .
my solution need to have 1 web UI , android and iOS apps , beside backend that serve all.

why backend in c#, does it serve any purpose.
there are much easier options available.
is backend is partially built?
you can try REST APIS

 

[AppMan]

why backend in c#, does it serve any purpose.
there are much easier options available.
is backend is partially built?
you can try REST APIS

I am .Net Software developer, so C# and SQL is my bread and butter , the API is exposed as REST API to be consumed by Front end and the apps . Back end is 50% completed , currently the guys that I hired mainly will write integration tests that make sure the product is reliable and the quality is high. Surprisingly he is the second guy who was begging to hire him and once I awarded the offer for him he is not accepting the offer.
Any way I talked with head hunter and he told me hiring in real life is not that different from online , a lot of fake resumes and fake people .

 

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[BlackSuperman]

Hey brother,

Just wanted to say I am really impressed with your progress! You are starting on a project with a HIGH barrier to entry which is always great and I can tell that you'll have, not only control of the business but eventually once its all set, you more than likely will have a HUGE amount of free time!

Keep at it!

I don't have anything really valuable to add except some motivation! Earn that Ferrari baby! Keep performing an action and you will get there.

Process baby.

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread. Definitely excited to see where this goes!

 

[sparechange]

I might pickup a Ferrari this weekend..

 

[Deleted50669]

I give them weekly deadline , by dividing the task to small steps , and each step have to finish within a week . This is a way to make sure there is a progress , if they say this is too much I divide it to smaller part.

Sounds like you're micromanaging, they are probably disengaging because of it. That or they dont know what they're doing. Only two explanations that would make sense really.

 

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[Deleted50669]

No micromanagement, weekly or biweekly deadline tasks is normal in software development companies, if you cant show any progress after week of coding you might have a problem.
it could be they don't know what they are doing, but like I said the tasks I give to them usually are easy to medium in difficulty. I leave architecture and hard parts to myself since I know to such task I need far more experienced and expensive developers.

I also have another theory, I think many freelancers are not looking for serious projects even if it is pay them , they mostly look for simple modifications or small size projects that doesn't require from them to understand all the picture, they simply dont want to invest in these projects as for them it is not worth since it is temp job.

Yea I'd imagine a big portion of the freelancer population is company wash outs honestly. People that couldn't cut it in a serious development role. The really good ones would just start their own firm, the average dev probably sits in some startup or enterprise.