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Mixing Business with Friends

Topics relating to managing people and relationships

KingWing26

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Hello,

I recently posted on here about a great idea I had for a startup business. The excitement caught me and I texted a few friends asking if they were interested in joining me on this. I have myself, my good friend who is the app developer (an obvious necessity) and then the 2 friends I asked to join. We had our first meeting and it went really well, establishing what our model would look like, business plan talk, etc. I'm now realizing that this might have been a mistake to bring in 2 other people that are probably not 100% needed but they are close friends of mine. I hate to sound selfish but because it was my original idea and I brought the team together, I feel entitled to more than just a 25-25-25-25 split. I don't really know how to have this conversation but I think it needs to be settled now rather than later.... does anyone have experience with this and/or can help provide advice on how to deal with the business vs. friends dilemma. Thanks.
 
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PureA

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No one knows your relationships like you do so only you can answer this.

One thing I will say is that going into business with friends (no matter how close you are) will put huge strain on the friendship and there will be days where you want to kill each other.

Communication is so important, especially at this stage. Speak to your friends openly about your concerns, see if you can work something out... if you can, great! If you can't, no worries... proceed solo...
 

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I run pretty much all my businesses with my best friend, we don't have any legal agreement and we split profits according to situation. I still haven't spent money I got 5 months ago.

We net-profit more than whole companies do, so it's not like we're not serious about what we do, I'd say we're a perfect example of what fine tuned and properly built business relationships are.
We won't fight over $100k, because we're in to make hundreds of millions, probably billions together. We aim for bigger things and value our relationships more than pennies.

But, you really don't want it to be like this:
Small Business + Partners = Dead Business?
 

Brian C.

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Hello,
I'm now realizing that this might have been a mistake to bring in 2 other people that are probably not 100% needed but they are close friends of mine.

It was a mistake.

I understand the need for the developer, but it's a big mistake to bring on other employees when you have yet to even validate your initial market offering. You don't even have an MVP yet. You're trying to build a business without an initial prototype of your product or service. What if there is no need for it? What if the market doesn't require it outside of your initial assumptions?

Hello,
I don't really know how to have this conversation but I think it needs to be settled now rather than later.... does anyone have experience with this and/or can help provide advice on how to deal with the business vs. friends dilemma. Thanks.

Tell them that you made a mistake - after all it is your fault. Own up to it, and if they are really your friends, they'll understand. You can always take them on later.

I find it concerning that about a week and a half ago, you posted about an e-commernce food product business venture. Now, you have this idea. Seems like you're a bit all over the place.

My advice: pick one venture, start as small as possible, validate it, and go from there.

Just my opinion.

EDIT: Oh, and read the Millionaire Fastlane .
 
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OldFaithful

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I have myself, my good friend who is the app developer (an obvious necessity) and then the 2 friends I asked to join.
My question is: What did you ask them to be/do when you asked them to join your venture? Employees, Investors, Advisor or Partners

BEST CASE SCENARIO: If you haven't specified to them what their roles might be, then tell them immediately that you are seeking employees & advisors (even the developer). Some will expect partnership, be angry, and back out. That's ok, be clear that they are your friends and that this is your company. BTW, you don't really want them as investors either (that's trouble too, just further down the road). The best you could hope for is that they are friendly "advisors" during your startup phase only.

WORST CASE SCENARIO: You've already mentioned the word "partner" and each one of them thinks of the partnership in the 4 way split (25% each) that you fear. Now you have to make the hard decision: Allow the partnership to be formed and run the risks involved OR tell them that you've changed your mind. Someone has to be in charge and you've decided that will be you. Either way, this ends painfully. Just do it sooner than later.

Search the forum, you'll find that the majority of the experience has been bad. Most suggest keeping business separate from friends or family. Obviously there are exceptions, and I wish them continued success.

You are probably somewhere in the middle between these two extremes, or at least I hope so. Best wishes.
 

KingWing26

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It was a mistake.

I understand the need for the developer, but it's a big mistake to bring on other employees when you have yet to even validate your initial market offering. You don't even have an MVP yet. You're trying to build a business without an initial prototype of your product or service. What if there is no need for it? What if the market doesn't require it outside of your initial assumptions?



Tell them that you made a mistake - after all it is your fault. Own up to it, and if they are really your friends, they'll understand. You can always take them on later.

I find it concerning that about a week and a half ago, you posted about an e-commernce food product business venture. Now, you have this idea. Seems like you're a bit all over the place.

My advice: pick one venture, start as small as possible, validate it, and go from there.

Just my opinion.

EDIT: Oh, and read the Millionaire Fastlane .

Thanks for the post.

Yes, I did recently post about a separate business venture. Since I've started on this forum and since I've been trying to think "fastlane", I've had ideas flowing non-stop. It's been quite overwhelming actually. However, this idea seems to be the most practical and has the greatest potential to fill a need and to be profitable.

I am going to bring up all of the "roles" in our next meeting tomorrow. I know it is something that needs to be done and it is clearly my fault, I let the excitement get the best of me. It is obviously a tough conversation to have but it needs to be done now rather than later.
 

KingWing26

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My question is: What did you ask them to be/do when you asked them to join your venture? Employees, Investors, Advisor or Partners

I texted the 2 friends a day after I came up with the idea to see if they were interested in joining me, nothing was ever specified so that could be good or bad I suppose....unfortunately, I think they would take it as a 4-way partnership rather than a hierarchal set up. Either way, I decided I would bring it up when I meet with them tomorrow. Hopefully all goes well.
 
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KingWing26

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No one knows your relationships like you do so only you can answer this.

One thing I will say is that going into business with friends (no matter how close you are) will put huge strain on the friendship and there will be days where you want to kill each other.

Communication is so important, especially at this stage. Speak to your friends openly about your concerns, see if you can work something out... if you can, great! If you can't, no worries... proceed solo...
Agreed, communication is a huge key here. I can envision the future and I can see how it would create conflict. I will bring it up and see how it goes but they are very close friends so I imagine it going well!
 

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Are you both 100% all in, equally, full time with the same goal and both happy to put your money on the line?

If you can't answer that question instantly with absolute clarity then don't mix business with friends.

I speak from experience.

I worked for my dad's business for many years (10+), left recently, was a mistake, I learnt a lot so don't fully regret it but it would never have worked out and it was a complete dead end.

I have a business with a friend, I don't want to be in it and will happily lose all the money I put in. He works full time in a job he has no intention of quitting, the business is going no where but we have spent time/money and both feel obliged to somehow at least make same sales.

I actually don't want it to do that well either, my ideal is a very low level sell out to a competitor as if it gets busy I won't give up my main business, and I doubt he'll give up his job either.........

From now on I work for myself to provide for me and my family. Friends and family may get involved but only on an employee basis when I'm 100% sure its the right thing to do.
 

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This never works. Ever. Literally ever.
 
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Interesting Life

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This is like a holy grail situation, but care must be taken due to the biases that you have which can skew logic.

In some ways friends can be more trusted and are more fun to work with. You can also talk more real to them.

In other ways the friendship may introduce extra sensitivities and other human inefficiencies that can distract from the business itself.

I'd say that probably only a very small slice of your friends are fit to do business with.

I think there is opportunity in the idea, but much care should be taken (much more than you would realize at first glance)

Also I believe in thorough paperwork always. Having it in place can reduce the temptation for one party doing wrong by the other. This reduced temptation can save the business and the friendship.
 

HoneyBadger

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I had just invited a fellow developer/friend to become a partner in business with me about 3 weeks ago. Over the last 3 weeks he did exactly 0% of the work asked of him which was already only 20% of the workload so he got the boot yesterday. Anyways I say that to say I originally picked him up because he was a co-worker at my previous job and he was always doing more than he was asked, coming in in the morning with side-projects he was making progress on, very business minded etc. When had to have it materialize entrepreneurially the hustle wasn't there. I learned from this that even if a friend exhibits the best signs of a partner it is not worth it - stick to having employees when you needs to and contracting out as much as you can.

As a side note start reflecting on how easily you just gave up 75% of all future profit for essentially no reason. There is a huge business lesson in there somewhere.
 
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KingWing26

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Are you both 100% all in, equally, full time with the same goal and both happy to put your money on the line?

If you can't answer that question instantly with absolute clarity then don't mix business with friends.

I speak from experience.

I worked for my dad's business for many years (10+), left recently, was a mistake, I learnt a lot so don't fully regret it but it would never have worked out and it was a complete dead end.

I have a business with a friend, I don't want to be in it and will happily lose all the money I put in. He works full time in a job he has no intention of quitting, the business is going no where but we have spent time/money and both feel obliged to somehow at least make same sales.

I actually don't want it to do that well either, my ideal is a very low level sell out to a competitor as if it gets busy I won't give up my main business, and I doubt he'll give up his job either.........

From now on I work for myself to provide for me and my family. Friends and family may get involved but only on an employee basis when I'm 100% sure its the right thing to do.

We just had our second meeting, I know it's not ideal but we are all 100% in and we will move forward as partners.

While this means we are splitting profits, we will also be splitting up the roles and assigning work in that way.

We are all young, 23 y.o., and we have been talking about getting into a business venture for some time now. Call me crazy, but I think we can pull it off. I'm not in this to make money, I'm in it for the experience and I know these 3 friends I chose will also be in it for the experience. I'm going to stay positive in the mean time and see where this takes us.
 

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I'm not in this to make money, I'm in it for the experience

Bullshit. If you were solely in it for the experience then you wouldn't have made your first post.

With that said, why are you wasting so much time and energy splitting up "profit" that doesn't even exist?

For future reference, this is how you should try to approach an opportunity that you think is worth executing on:
1. Try to get it to market yourself, if you cannot then
2. Hire the bare minimum number of people to get the product to market; if that doesn't work then
3. Take on an equity partner for the bare minimum that you can. Don't hire more people unless you need to.
4. Continue running lean and efficient. Only bring on people when necessary to get to the next step.


This never works. Ever. Literally ever.

Also, 100% this. If you're trying to renegotiate the 25/25/25/25 split with friends, at this point, then you're pretty much crewed. Every single person has decided that they're worth a minimum of 25%, so you're guaranteed to upset anyone that gets even a fraction of a percent less.
 
G

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I'd set up the entity with a few million shares of stock. Set it up so that your shares get voting rights and their shares are just "common" / no voting rights.

This way, you stay in control without them knowing. At a later date if you find trouble, which you most likely will, you can issue more shares of common to dilute them down or out. Its 'your' baby. Don't forget that. Now go take care of it

Edit: Although I am aware there isn't a single sale yet, this is commonplace for newbs to want hand holding, usually from friends. I mention what I say above because the op is already in it and if this does turn into only a learning lesson, why not stack more lessons on now and get a mass dose of learning instead of staggered lessons over years? Setting up a family corporation with shares and voting rights is as easy as checking out a book or 2 from the library and doing it yourself. Also, no one takes a paycheck for a while and if there are sales it goes back into the company. This period of time will be adequate enough to see whose shares get diluted and who stays.

To sell this, make certificates with the common share amounts and have your friends sign in a ledger that they received x number of common shares. On the same page, also have them write what value/contribution they will provide in exchange for the shares.
 
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KingWing26

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Bullshit. If you were solely in it for the experience then you wouldn't have made your first post.

With that said, why are you wasting so much time and energy splitting up "profit" that doesn't even exist?

For future reference, this is how you should try to approach an opportunity that you think is worth executing on:
1. Try to get it to market yourself, if you cannot then
2. Hire the bare minimum number of people to get the product to market; if that doesn't work then
3. Take on an equity partner for the bare minimum that you can. Don't hire more people unless you need to.
4. Continue running lean and efficient. Only bring on people when necessary to get to the next step.

Ok, good point, I suppose I should clarify what I meant. Yes, of course I hope to see profits but I'm also looking to commit to something that will eventually take me away from my slow lane job. This would be my first step to becoming fast lane.

If we think the idea has great potential and if I think it is a positive experience I can share with these friends, is there not a scenario where the business works out and we all end up as "winners"?

The way I see it right now, we're working on this business on the side. Once it becomes serious and requires the majority of our time, we will all make that transition together. If they do not, that's their loss but I fully plan on going in. If the business becomes profitable then this becomes a full-time job for us and we all benefit. If it does not become profitable then at least we tried and we end up back to square one...find a slow lane job or pursue another venture
 

LateStarter

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Until you know what each individuals contribution will be and what that's worth to the business, this % nonsense is just that...nonsense. You don't have anything more than an idea at this stage. You don't even have a product/service or a business. Other more seasoned veterans here may disagree with me, but where I see it...25% or 90% of nothing is still nothing. Build something, sort out contributions, then be fair about the profits when you make money.

I agree though...working with friends is a bad idea. I'm knee deep in doing that now with one of my new businesses. Why? Because they asked to be a part of it and I agreed in hopes of helping them. So far, I've done 90% of the work and they've been nothing more than a peanut gallery slowing down the progress. I've also fronted 90% of the capital to get this moving. It's early stages and I'm pushing them (kindly) to get more actively involved but if it doesn't change soon, they're out.
 

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Once it becomes serious and requires the majority of our time, we will all make that transition together. If they do not, that's their loss but I fully plan on going in.
What happens if in the mean time, 1 of the guys gets married & no longer wants to give his free time to help, 1 of the guys has a kid and wants the security of a 9-5, and the other just turns out to be a slacker. You will go "all in" and they will sit on the sidelines and enjoy taking 75% of your profit.
 
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Vigilante

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My all time favorite "don't work with friends" was a good friend we hired as an employee to work for one of our businesses.

I was overpaying her significantly against the market, believing the more I paid the better the outcome might be.

Fast forward six months. She had commented several times that she loved the job so much she would do it for FREE.

Can you see where this is headed?

Due in part to financial underperformance of the business, and in part to her own average performance but above average wage, I told her I was going to need to adjust her salary to accomodate both the conditions of the business and her own investment of time into it. Her adjusted salary, per hour, would still be 25% higher than industry average for her position.

She turned in her notice a few days later. She said she was going to be a stay at home Mom.

Two weeks later, she ended up working a block away for someone else, full time, for reportedly LESS MONEY than I offered her for her "dream job."

And that, folks, is how you end a friendship.

Don't mix business with pleasure. I have a half dozen more personal stories like this.
 

devine

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My all time favorite "don't work with friends" was a good friend we hired as an employee to work for one of our businesses.

I was overpaying her significantly against the market, believing the more I paid the better the outcome might be.

Fast forward six months. She had commented several times that she loved the job so much she would do it for FREE.

Can you see where this is headed?

Due in part to financial underperformance of the business, and in part to her own average performance but above average wage, I told her I was going to need to adjust her salary to accomodate both the conditions of the business and her own investment of time into it. Her adjusted salary, per hour, would still be 25% higher than industry average for her position.

She turned in her notice a few days later. She said she was going to be a stay at home Mom.

Two weeks later, she ended up working a block away for someone else, full time, for reportedly LESS MONEY than I offered her for her "dream job."

And that, folks, is how you end a friendship.

Don't mix business with pleasure. I have a half dozen more personal stories like this.
When I was 15, my friend told me about his other friend who asked for money and never paid back, he said:
"I had a choice - either to not be friends with him anymore, or not have any money relationships with him. I prefer the latter."
It was one of the most valuable lessons in life which I still remember.
 

Jon L

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Until you know what each individuals contribution will be and what that's worth to the business, this % nonsense is just that...nonsense. You don't have anything more than an idea at this stage. You don't even have a product/service or a business. Other more seasoned veterans here may disagree with me, but where I see it...25% or 90% of nothing is still nothing. Build something, sort out contributions, then be fair about the profits when you make money.

I agree though...working with friends is a bad idea. I'm knee deep in doing that now with one of my new businesses. Why? Because they asked to be a part of it and I agreed in hopes of helping them. So far, I've done 90% of the work and they've been nothing more than a peanut gallery slowing down the progress. I've also fronted 90% of the capital to get this moving. It's early stages and I'm pushing them (kindly) to get more actively involved but if it doesn't change soon, they're out.
being 'fair' about profits after the fact is a recipe for disaster. Fair to one person might mean they want 90% ... after all, it was their ideas that made the business work well. Someone else might want 75% of the profits because, even though it was the other person's ideas, they were the one that implement everything...doing the hard work of turning ideas into reality.

I'd say: get out now. Start over with just you and the developer.
 
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I wouldn't disregard Vigilante's and other experienced posters' opinions here. But, I would also like to add: read the book! Shocking fact: the Forum is based on a book!

And also, if you cannot be persuaded to not take partners check out the notes from Peter Thiel's startup class at Stanford which have been made into the book Zero to One. There is a substantial discussion in it about picking people for a startup team in the tech sector, easily applicable in many business contexts.
 

Andy Black

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I partnered up with a few business people in the past. My technical skills coupled with their business acumen. It went no-where, and it's fair to say it held me back for a few years until all ties were cut.

I JV with plenty of people. I create win-win situations, that require both parties to pull their weight for it to work.

Maybe I'll end up setting up businesses in the future where projects take off. Until then they are just projects.


As for working with friends and family - I like nothing better than helping those nearest to me. My Dad has worked for me, so has my brother, so has my step-son. I've never employed anyone though. It's always small pieces of paid work.

If it doesn't work out it doesn't work out. No big deal. The relationship is more important, and I'm happy knowing we had a go.
 

KingWing26

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A month and a half later. I decided to keep the friends on as I saw value in them. However, commitment became an issue and it is now only down to myself and one other partner. This is for the best. I also finished TMFL this past week and MJ made it clear to not go into business with partners so this thread seems a little irrelevant now lol...at least it is 50/50 and not 25/25/25/25.
 
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LateStarter

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I believe that partnerships have their place and time but people seem to gravitate to them too freely as they see it as a way to lighten their workload. That's not the right way to evaluate it.

You need to look at it in terms of buying strength but at a higher potential cost than directly outsourcing the work. I think this works for roles like sales where people may have deep networks that you want to take advantage of. General skills and even specialized knowledge can be much harder to justify.

Congrats on widdling down the partners. Hopefully you have some majority arrangement with the remaining one to know who makes the call in the event you don't agree on some issues.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk
 

KingWing26

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I believe that partnerships have their place and time but people seem to gravitate to them too freely as they see it as a way to lighten their workload. That's not the right way to evaluate it.

You need to look at it in terms of buying strength but at a higher potential cost than directly outsourcing the work. I think this works for roles like sales where people may have deep networks that you want to take advantage of. General skills and even specialized knowledge can be much harder to justify.

Congrats on widdling down the partners. Hopefully you have some majority arrangement with the remaining one to know who makes the call in the event you don't agree on some issues.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

We are going over the operational agreement this week so hopefully all will go well in our discussions. As far as the partnership goes, there are definitely some strengths I have that would cover his weaknesses and vice versa. While this could be a bad thing (less room to grow my skills) I think it will be helpful as this a first time venture for both parties. I also see this as a stepping stone in my entrepreneurial path.
 

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When I was 15, my friend told me about his other friend who asked for money and never paid back, he said:
"I had a choice - either to not be friends with him anymore, or not have any money relationships with him. I prefer the latter."
It was one of the most valuable lessons in life which I still remember.

what kind of friend doesn't pay the money back?

What else can you no longer trust that friend with but you just don't know yet?

I would demote that individual to "associate" level.
 
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