Managing Sucessful Relationships

[Kak]

A very smart person once told me this:

"Men need respect (in every sense of the word) above most else. Women need security (in every sense of the word) above most else.

Men have the bigger job here. They are tasked with the security of their wife/gf and being worthy of respect."

Also... if you are a man, stay the hell away from feminists.

 

[Joaquim]

These days being a giver is easily perceived as somebody who is 'weak'.

There is nothing wrong with being the giver, but you also have to dare asking questions from time to time. When your friends do not try hard enough to help, drop the relation.

I read the books you're talking about and can highly recommend this book and hope you will read it and I really want to hear your experience with it:

The Way of the Superior Man - David Deida

( Everyone should read it )

 

[Kak]

These days the word “feminist” defines a very broad range... it could be just anyone who believes in women getting equal pay and treatment in the workplace. So yeah, if you want a trophy wife, stay away from feminists. If you want a high earning woman who can spoil a man, date a feminist.

“These days” the word feminist is more radical than ever. I’m not disagreeing with suffragettes here. I’m disagreeing with the man hating, lesbianic, reverse (it shouldn’t even have to be called reverse) sexism running rampant in western society.

Women already have equal pay, in fact they are desired over men in the same position. The so called “pay gap” that people like to throw around is averaging full time employed men vs women, NOT taking into account career choice.

There is a LOT of gray area in between trophy wife and feminist. I’ll say it again to the men in this thread. Don’t date feminists or any woman who calls themselves one.

 

[Kak]

That's an interesting perspective, I remember hearing that the loss of masculinity in the west has been a huge problem both for woman and man.

Huge problem. In my opinion is a big reason for shitty kids these days. They need strong and present fathers.

 

[Vigilante]

It's equally absurd to paint all feminists as man-haters as it is to describe all feminists as simply advocating equality between the sexes. I didn't see @Kak do the first, as accused, but I did see @racyred09 do the latter. @Kak's post surely would be a trigger for some, but a high percentage of women would agree with him. There was a time when unions were needed during the industrial revolution, and a time when women needed to uprise especiallly prior to the adoption of the 19th amendment to the constitution but that was nearly 100 years ago.

While the forum doesn't weight heavily into religion by policy, common sense would draw a distinction between radical Muslims and peace-loving neighbors. It would be naive to deny the distinction. Tons of men are pigs, some aren't. It would be naive to deny the distinction. Within every group, unfortunately, if you choose to identify with them you own the label. It's not up to @Kak to disclaim for the "good" feminists and to insert astericks every time a discussion comes up where people choose to identify with a label that has come to represent more about what they're opposed to than what they are for. You picked the label for yourself. He's simply reflecting his views on the label you choose to wear. He's entitled to his opinion, and you're entitled to yours.

I thought it was a reasonable proposition for him to ask to specifically what aspects of his posts did not pertain to the feminist movement, but perhaps this forum is not the right place for a clash of a traditional viewpoint vs. a special interest viewpoint. It's not likely to produce a positive discussion that would be relevant to anything people come to this place to find. There's plenty of places out in the web where this discussion takes place. The OP wasn't hopeful that this thread would devolve into a debate of male/female roles, stereotypes and gender strengths.

I would however echo the sentiment that feminists do not speak for "all the women on this forum." Some, sure. All? No. So when you speak, speak for yourself. Most unbiased polling data suggests that less than 20% of women identify with the modern day feminist label and movement.

 

[Cashflow Queen]

Have read books like "how to win friends and influence people", "give and take" and "never eat alone" and the big problem is these books put you in the good listener/add value kind of person, but does not deal directly on how to decide when to drop out a relationship,explain your needs, etc.

It sounds weird but the book “the life-changing magic of tidying up” really helped me with this. The book is about throwing away all junk in your house that “does not spark joy” when you hold it. It applies to people too.

I’m going through a major transition of “toning down/dumping” a dozen of relationships with my childhood friends who are not good people, toxic, and users, including a best friend of 16 years for whom I’m serving as a bridesmaid next weekend. I only wished I had done all this before. It took becoming an entrepreneur to see how toxic and hurtful everyone was to me and my dreams.

Jim Rohn also has good advice about this in many of his books, basically how you are an average of your 5 closest relationships... and you should evaluate with whom you want to spend more time with/ spend less time with/ maintain as you are.

 

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[Kak]

I made claims and backed them up with articulate arguments. She ignored the arguments, and instead of making her own articulate arguments to refute them, which I would have been fair and listened to, she attacked my character.

I just think it is a shame. People should know why they believe what they claim to believe. I think it can become incredibly damaging to society when people literally ride pop culture into viewpoints they don’t even necessarily have so far that they attack others for not doing the same.

Needless to say, I don’t let the drive by shaming from these folks go unanswered.

 

[The-J]

Lol, yep, I knew you'd come in for a personal attack even though you claimed I personally attacked you (and I didn't).

Kak didn't say that feminists hated men. He said that men who aim to provide security to his family should not date a feminist. Very big difference.

He may very well be speaking from experience. But the important thing is he asked why he was wrong.

I may end up getting political here. But one big problem with political attitudes (on all sides) is that they argue their points by taking the moral high ground and attempting to apply it to everything they argue about. Calling someone 'ridiculous', or 'bigoted', or whatever insult du jour is necessary to make the insulter feel like they're 'better' than the other person, is a common tactic used to derail conversation and 'rally their base' which does absolutely nothing.

Even if you believe you are in the moral right, arguing for that is not going to help you win. Maybe it'll win followers and keep you feeling right, but it certainly won't change someone's mind. He offered his mind to be changed. He admitted that he can be wrong sometimes. You had the option to tell him that feminism isn't what he thinks it is... but you just proved his point.

It helps to be tactful when dealing with anyone, especially with a respected member of the forum. He and I certainly do not agree on certain points but I'll still be respectful to him: not because he's who he is on the forum, but because he deserves that respect as a human being. He gave you that respect, opened the possibility that you may be able to prove him wrong, and now he certainly has less respect for you and your viewpoint (which I'm sure he's been able to argue against many times)

Also, you mentioned why women entrepreneurs don't come here. It's mostly because of the PUA locker room talk that the mods have doe a pretty good job at stamping out but still pops up every now and again. Women don't need feminism: people need to learn respect.

 

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[RobD88]

Learn to love yourself first then give/take all other things in moderation.

 

[Pakshaheen]

1.When you give never have any expectation that you will receive anything in return.Because when you give with a goal of getting something in return,then you will be not sincere in your dealings.

And people can sense that.

2.Giving without any expectation will decrease your anxiety and feeling of being let down by friends and family.You will feel freedom.

3.And when you have to deny someone request of favor or help,they will respect your decision.Because they know you are sincere in your dealings.That there is a valid reason for your rejection.

4.And read "No More MR.Nice Guy".

 

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[Kak]

It's not my responsibility to educate you (or anyone else on this forum) about things you could answer for yourself in 5 minutes on a search engine: LMGTFY

As I said, I didn't come here to waste energy on debating and explaining the nuances of feminism. Your education is your own responsibility and maybe someone else will spend the time to hold your hand through it. The point is that by slandering groups of people in a public forum, you are isolating said groups and ensuring that they stay underrepresented in the forum.

It is, in fact, your responsibility to back up baseless claims used in debate if your side of the debate is to be taken seriously.

If you followed along and actually read what I was saying... I never once slandered women, but you saying that I did is a common alinskyite way to argue, just like attacking my “education”, I expected it. I didn’t even initially take issue with the existence of feminists, I simply told men not to date them.

But now, according to you, I’m slandering all of these “groups of people”. Which ones? Who am I slandering?

Once again if FEMINISM is about EQUALITY why is it called FEMINISM? What exactly isn’t equal?

Men and women are synergistic and different in the right ways. A couple fighting to both be the man will never truly be what it could be. As a straight man, I prefer women. Not women that want to be the man in a relationship.

So once again, since I’m not allowed to have an opinion without triggering argumentative feminists... Don’t date feminists.

 

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[Kak]

ensuring that they stay underrepresented in the forum.

I take severe issue with this...

So according to you feminists = all women? Not true. A large majority of women disagree with you.

Who is underrepresented? I don't see a list of rules of the fastlane forum barring groups of people from posting here... People will REPRESENT with a level of their interest... If there are less women than men here it is SOLEY because less women are interested in joining an entrepreneurship forum. So what?

The forum isn't an evil patriarch.

 

[Vigilante]

I ignored your claims because you were the one who, in the first place, twisted the point I was trying to make into a discussion on feminism. The point, as I've restated in several ways now, is that your bash was neither necessary nor fact-based. Instead of giving a positive contribution for the OP, you decided to attack people that you were not aware were in the forum because you thought you were in an echo chamber.

Also, what makes you think there are less women here because they're less interested in an entrepreneurial forum? It was blog posts by women that turned me onto the book in the first place.

There are less women entrepreneurs than men entrepreneurs. As a result, there are less women at any entrepreneur forum than men.

The good news is we had a ton of women at the Forum meet up this year.

 

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[Ayanle Farah]

There is an art to giving things, you don't just give to be made use of, you make sure to have the other person in a place where they need you, that gives you the power in the relationship to make them give you what you want but if you don't want anything, unless they are close friends/family, don't give them anything.

However it seems if you want to be rich, it's required you become a giver and willing to help total strangers.

The successful members on this forum all seem to advocate this. Even though it contradicts my own life experience, I'm willing to empty my proverbial cup and and try it because it comes down to whether I want to be right or I want to be rich.

I've made a thread for this reason with the sole purpose of helping people, if you're interested in participating, here is the link: Who did you help today? Share your story

 

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[SquatchMan]

So yeah, if you want a trophy wife, stay away from feminists. If you want a high earning woman who can spoil a man, date a feminist.

I personally don't want to marry a high earning woman or a "trophy wife". I'd rather just date a traditional stay at home mom type that takes care of the kids while I work on my business.

Just personal preference.

Been there done that with dating feminist women. Never again.

 

[racyred09]

You’re the one attaching a negative connotation to the word lesbianic. Are you homophobic?

Ok... So I made the claim that men shouldn't date feminists. I understand I can be wrong about things from time to time. So why am I wrong?

Oh, so you meant it as a compliment? Don't play dumb; your use of the term was rude toward multiple groups.

You're welcome to date whoever you like and I could not care less about how you narrow down your dating pool. The point is that this is not the first thread on here where someone (or multiple someones) decides they're an expert on feminism and uses the term as a slur. Imagine if I posted, "don't date Muslim [or insert any other shared ideology] men, they're all the same, a bunch of x, y, and z's".

Feminists believe in equality between the sexes, and that's it. Different people have different interpretations of what that means and some people make it a bigger part of their identities than others, but I'm not really sure why anyone sees that as a threat.

 

[Kak]

Oh, so you meant it as a compliment? Don't play dumb; your use of the term was rude toward multiple groups.

You're welcome to date whoever you like and I could not care less about how you narrow down your dating pool. The point is that this is not the first thread on here where someone (or multiple someones) decides they're an expert on feminism and uses the term as a slur. Imagine if I posted, "don't date Muslim [or insert any other shared ideology] men, they're all the same, a bunch of x, y, and z's".

Feminists believe in equality between the sexes, and that's it. Different people have different interpretations of what that means and some people make it a bigger part of their identities than others, but I'm not really sure why anyone sees that as a threat.

So you are making the argument that feminists only believe in EQUALITY between the sexes... Then please, for everyone on this forum answer these next 2-3 questions.

If feminism is about equality between BOTH sexes why is it called FEMINISM?

What is unequal between men and women in the USA?

If nothing... Then why do we need self proclaimed feminists to fight for it?

 

[Kak]

Also, what makes you think there are less women here because they're less interested in an entrepreneurial forum? It was blog posts by women that turned me onto the book in the first place.

If there are less of them, less interest in the topic would be why. I don’t know the exact demographics of the forum. Reread what I typed before you go accusing me of kicking puppies now.

Women may make up 50% of degree earners but they’re only 28% of full professors nationwide, 3.8% of Fortune 500 CEOs, and 16.8% of Congress. However, they are 92% of plastic surgery recipients, 90% of rape victims, and 85% of domestic violence victims. As these statistics and the surrounding graphics suggest, feminism is just as relevant as it has ever been."

Who of these women were not offered a choice in careers? Who has a gun to their head telling them they can’t do those things? Nobody. They are choosing other fields, why? Because women are different than men and that’s ok.

I’m not sure who you’re going to argue with that rape isn’t wrong. Of course rape and domestic violence are wrong. I don’t think you’ll find an opponent on that one. How is this my fault as a non-rapist though?

Clearly my point is made. You have yet to even explain why you are a feminist. I don’t argue with nonsensical bullshit.

If you want to date this kind of shit folks... date a feminist.

 

[Kak]

@Kak I just noticed that you edited all your comments to make them less incendiary and I do appreciate the effort.

I edit most of my comments to clean up the grammar. Nice try though. Your quotes of me are original.

I clearly won the argument. The fact that you had to dance in and be a feminist shrew, piss in my Cheerios, rudely tell me how wrong I am, offer no supporting evidence to your claim of my wrongness and now you’re upset that I didn’t back down to your Alensky bullshit tirade PROVES MY POINT.

Stay the HELL away from feminists...

 

[Kak]

Thankfully I was still on here to see what you said (trying to figure how to delete my account...not sure there's an option besides de-activating all the notifications etc.!).

What you said was incredibly wise not to mention kind. I never thought about it that way but you're absolutely right, and I re-read it a few times to let it sink it.

I'll stick around Definitely taking at least a short break from the forum after today, though.

If you're always this perceptive I can bet your advice on dating is excellent and am not surprised you've had a lot of success with women!

(You can have your thread back now, OP!)

Good choice to stick around! I’m sincerely glad you made that decision!

Allow me to formally welcome you. Arguments happen here, but we generally have them in order to seek truth and get smarter. The forum has been a priceless place of business and personal growth for me and I hope it becomes the same for you.

Excellent decision.

 

[The-J]

I was wondering how do you manage key relationships in your life? (i.e friends, girlfriends/boyfriends, family)

I tend to be more to the "giver" in a relationship however that puts me on a needy side of things and I absolutely hate that. Lately I decided not to give attention to relationships that are not reciprocal but I am afraid this will lead me to a lonely place sooner or later.

Have read books like "how to win friends and influence people", "give and take" and "never eat alone" and the big problem is these books put you in the good listener/add value kind of person, but does not deal directly on how to decide when to drop out a relationship,explain your needs, etc.

Read Thick Face Black Heart. Seriously. It will help you with your last sentence.

As far as managing relationships with people in your life, the key is generally time and attention. That's all a husband or a wife wants. That's all your kids want. That's all your family wants.

Some people are toxic and will try to get one over on you. They may be your husband, wife, kids, family, friends, or business associates. To deal with these people, read Thick Face Black Heart. Yes, I recommended this book twice. There is a reason why seasoned businessmen are able to deal with snakes in the grass without fear. You should never fear toxic people: just learn to recognize them and keep them at arm's length (not necessarily kick em out of your life!)

Also, read Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion by Cialdini.

If you want to make a relationship reciprocal, it takes effort. Yes, give first, but don't be afraid to take when necessary. If they don't deliver, looks like you've disqualified someone. A person is only as good as their word.

You say being a giver makes you needy. This is impossible: a giver cannot be needy. You're needy either because (1) you're, in fact, taking more than you give, or (2) your giving is not without expectation. I think of the 'nice guy' who does one nice thing for a woman and expects sex. I think of the girl who does nice things for a guy and then gets resentful when he doesn't give her the attention that she didn't ask for.

 

[Kak]

There is an art to giving things, you don't just give to be made use of, you make sure to have the other person in a place where they need you, that gives you the power in the relationship to make them give you what you want but if you don't want anything, unless they are close friends/family, don't give them anything.

However it seems if you want to be rich, it's required you become a giver and willing to help total strangers.

The successful members on this forum all seem to advocate this. Even though it contradicts my own life experience, I'm willing to empty my proverbial cup and and try it because it comes down to whether I want to be right or I want to be rich.

I've made a thread for this reason with the sole purpose of helping people, if you're interested in participating, here is the link: Who did you help today? Share your story

Good post. Yes, giving and being someone others can rely on is a form of leadership. It absolutely does change perspectives when you can learn to give without expecting a thing in return.

 

[Kennypaul]

I was wondering how do you manage key relationships in your life? (i.e friends, girlfriends/boyfriends, family)

I tend to be more to the "giver" in a relationship however that puts me on a needy side of things and I absolutely hate that. Lately I decided not to give attention to relationships that are not reciprocal but I am afraid this will lead me to a lonely place sooner or later.

Have read books like "how to win friends and influence people", "give and take" and "never eat alone" and the big problem is these books put you in the good listener/add value kind of person, but does not deal directly on how to decide when to drop out a relationship,explain your needs, etc.

I recommend reading the book called "The subtle art of not giving a f*ck" by Mark Manson.It will totally address what you are saying.The title of the book might seem a bit controversial but it's one of my favorite "self development" and relationship(sort of) books.It will totally help you.Just give it a try.

 

[racyred09]

I think if a relationship is healthy, you giving will inspire the other person to give just as much! If you stop hanging out with people where that isn't the case I am certain you will find others where it is give-give. Don't hang out with people who drain your energy.

On a personal note, I have had friendships where it felt one-way...one in particular that I'm thinking of, it was an old friend and it became where I was the one always doing the inviting over for dinner, giving gifts, lending things that never got returned, and this person would talk about herself the whole time without even asking about anything happening in my life. I stopped bothering with that relationship when it became that way and felt like a weight was lifted, and it just so happened that a few new friends came into my life where it's very much reciprocal and I feel energized after spending time with those people.

As for your fears about it becoming lonely, never act out of fear The right people will find their way into your life when you act in your own best interest.

 

[Cashflow Queen]

Also... if you are a man, stay the hell away from feminists.

These days the word “feminist” defines a very broad range... it could be just anyone who believes in women getting equal pay and treatment in the workplace. So yeah, if you want a trophy wife, stay away from feminists. If you want a high earning woman who can spoil a man, date a feminist.

 

[StartToday]

Be an alpha male, brah.

Seriously, you have to be assertive with friends and girls, especially with toxic people who would F*ck you over without hesitation for personal gain.

You got a friend who's taking advantage of you at every chance? Be straightforward and address the problem with them or just ditch the relationship.

Same with girls, if they percieve you're weak, chances are that she's gonna take advantage of that at one point or another. They have to know that they can lose you at any time, that they can't take the relationship for granted.

Disclaimer: I'm not telling you to be a dick.

Note: (Radical) Feminism is cancer

 

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[The-J]

I made claims and backed them up with articulate arguments. She ignored the arguments, and instead of making her own articulate arguments to refute them, which I would have been fair and listened to, she attacked my character.

Some people would rather be right than be correct

 

[Eisenstein]

I was wondering how do you manage key relationships in your life? (i.e friends, girlfriends/boyfriends, family)

I tend to be more to the "giver" in a relationship however that puts me on a needy side of things and I absolutely hate that. Lately I decided not to give attention to relationships that are not reciprocal but I am afraid this will lead me to a lonely place sooner or later.

Have read books like "how to win friends and influence people", "give and take" and "never eat alone" and the big problem is these books put you in the good listener/add value kind of person, but does not deal directly on how to decide when to drop out a relationship,explain your needs, etc.

Hey Olimac I think I'm managing my relationship very well, since I've never been so happy in my life and that is for many years now. Indeed, my boyfriend (the love of my life) is the reason(motivation) why I keep myself busy with how I/we can become rich, so we become time-rich to enjoy our time together! Actually, now, we're spending every day together and I want to keep it this way.

I can only give you advice that worked for me. But these are my points:

1) Don't make too many compromises/sacrifices. Everyone, who is mediocre, will tell you, that you have to make many compromises to make the relationship work and this is a LIE. Let's look how the relationships of such people look like: settle for less (like always), being unhappy, divorcing and drama, drama, drama. And that's with 30 and not with 16. So -- NO, if you have to make serious sacrifices about yourself, then go better sooner than later. I can recommend you "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World" by Harry Browne.

2) Concentrate your relationships. Maybe it's a bad idea to have too many friends (this is only my opinion). My boyfriend is the one and only friend by now. Well, of course, I was thinking a lot about this: Do I need more friends? But the thing is ... my boyfriend seems to be all I need LOL. We're spending so much time and it never gets boring, it is wonderful and I love it. I came to the conclusion, if you concentrate on such a relationship you can have very intensive moments you wouldn't have if you spend regularly some hours a week with different persons. I mean -- the other one, who spends his life-time with you, knows you better than anyone else -- and you know him better than anyone else. It's very intimate and thats a beautiful feeling. Especially when you grow old together.

3) Look for people you don't need vacation from. These are people, you feel miraculously awesome when you spend time with them. Please read: https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/12/10-types-odd-friendships-youre-probably-part.html and then, spend as much time as you can with them. Like 24 hours a day, if possible, so you feel always good.

Have a nice day

 

[WJK]

Thank you for your answers I really liked the first and third point you mentioned, the only thing I will be careful with is to depend too much on a single person (girlfriend or wife) because if that goes wrong I will be left with nothing. Thats why I like to diversify a bit and not get too attached but yeah thats just me.

You've missed the point of marriage. My husband is my best friend. That's why we're still together after all of these years. We walk arm-in-arm. We hold hands and look forward to seeing each other. We have inside jokes and continuing conversations in many areas.

We don't agree on everything, but we respect our differences. Each of us has strong opinions that sometimes conflict. The place that we don't have conflicts is in our morals and ethics. Our strengths and skills are different and they dove-tail the others'.

The people around us are always telling us how lucky we are to be mated to each other. They admire our relationship and our commitment to it.

Being married is a lot of work -- give and take for each of us. It takes a lot of cooperation. And I can tell you, it is worth it. Maybe you are setting your sights too low and restricting your own happiness & well being.

 

[Pakshaheen]

Those are great points sometimes consciously I might believe: I am giving without anything in return but in reality or on an emotional level I do believe I want something is hard to explain, depending on the relationship. In general I am very happy to help even if I know I will not get anything in return because it feels good, is just some relationships I feel I have to be the one keeping in touch, suggesting ideas, remembering birthdays and that takes a lot of energy away.

I have read No more Mr Nice guy also 2 years ago and was very helpful, I totally changed my relationship with women because of that and could understand better why so many people struggle.

Have you sometimes felt is not about you but your environment? Hanging with the wrong type of people?

Yes sometimes it is the environment.

I attended a 2 year college.With my college friends ,I always felt lonely,left out and like they sucked my energy.

After 2 years I started a new college.So, I got a new clean slate.

I decided to change myself and my relationships with friends. And that I will not anyone feel as I felt for the past 2 years.
This mentality took my friendship to a level I thought was not possible.My new friends are the best in the world.They respect me,look towards me for guidance and advice,help me in any manner possible.

They have done and doing so much for me,that other people are surprised that such a friendship exists today.


I am also the one that keeps touch with everyone,plan a get together and etc.

But by being the action taker I have become the center of a network.That is connected to everyone in the group.And if any friend needs help or favor from other friend then they will first contact me, and I will decide how to approach the other friend for the favor or help.

Being the action taker makes you the leader of the group.As a result your friends will respect you and listen to you.

Yes, environment does matter.And you have the power to change the environment and your relationship.