Make Excellent Money Without College

[Kak]

I don’t think there is the raving support for “higher” education here that you think there is.

Education, on the other hand, is the most important thing in the world to true success.

“Higher” education can be part of your education, but, if you expect results different than a typical college grad, you need more.

Self help/mindset books don’t get it done either.

 

[Kak]

I think the main benefit of college is that it holds kids to a higher standard than a typical 18 year old kid for a few more years. It's expensive for that reason. I have always touted formal apprenticeships or mentorships with bad a$$ people as a good potential alternative. Work for free, for someone you respect, in an industry you like. There is power in FREE and it is a lot cheaper than college.

In GENERAL, with PLENTY of exceptions, there is more polish to someone with a college degree. Regardless of degree or not, you can pretty easily tell when someone decided that education isn't important. It isn't pretty.

 

[socaldude]

I truly believe we are gonna be one of the first generation to actually not push our kids to go to college.

That's the only way this bubble is gonna pop. Reverse social conditioning.

We have seen first hand that at the end of the day the laws of economics wins. A college degree when commoditized and over priced becomes worthless.

When mass crowds over populate a space its value has no where to go but down.

Our economy has created jobs there no doubt but these jobs are not high paying professional jobs. More like working at amazon or target kind of jobs.

The jobs academia trained for are gone and they will never return.

 

[Kak]

I know numerous people that are very successful without the advantage of your superior education that you love to flaunt.

You kind of did it again there...

You brought a micro truth to a macro argument.

Now, there are millionaires and billionaires that aren't college educated. They absolutely exist. Does their existence affirm that the average American is better off not going to college? Average business person? Hell no.

"Numerous people" is still a miniscule sample size. The truth is that most millionaires and billionaires ARE, in fact, college educated. There is factual, data driven proof to this point.

Use that information as you will. I personally believe you don't need college to have a successful business career, if you have the right kind of personality, but the data doesn't lie. More successful people went to college than not. Big over arching claims for society, based only on your social circle, don't work here.

 

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[Kak]

Just curious, what kind of personality do you need?

To be a true success, you need the right personality type either way.

The type of person that is willing to educate themselves for the rest of their lives.

 

[Real Deal Denver]

I have known for a very long time that college is not, and never was, the ticket to success that many would like you to believe. It is, however, a guaranteed way to be saddled with a ton of debt for a very long time.

Being I recently discussed this with several friends (several of which have Master degrees) that were working in dead end "jobs" (not careers), I thought the following example would be especially helpful for those looking for a plan to ramp up quickly. This can be an excellent opportunity for a Plan B, while one works on their dream Plan A endeavor. Double this with a spouse income, and we are talking serious power to get things done here. Scrap that extra min wage Saturday job plan!

One of my best friends is a master plumber, making 6 figures a year, and basically planning and supervising. He has a cushy job that he loves, and he's making the big bucks as a bonus.

This advice is not fast lane, however it is a lot better than going to college for many years and developing egoitis - for which there is no known cure. (Egoitis - a condition where ones ego grows to out of control proportions, with no increase in reasoning or thinking ability. Most common in young male college graduates before they realize the world values demonstrable abilities, instead of abstract theories.)

 

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[ChrisV]

I can’t even see this thread because I have you blocked (you seriously and honestly hurt my brain in that last thread) but I’ll still reply anyway, even though i’m probably gonna hate myself for it.




Going to college isn’t necessarily about making money. It’s about enriching yourself and exposing yourself to new ideas.

And going to college isn’t even necessarily the important thing. I think a huge part the understanding of the scientific method which is heavily integrated into universities.



In universities, you’re essentially protected against quackery. Bookstores, you’re not. The internet? You’re definitely not. But in universities you’re almost 100% protected against quack type ideas. (Liberalism, Marxism, etc is another story, but I’m not opening that can of worms right now)

It’s not perfect but.. I’m trying to think of the best way to explain this…

It’s like going into Whole Foods. Sure you can go to Stop and Shop and get healthy foods, but in Whole Foods you’re essentially guaranteed that almost anything in your cart is healthy. The people have done the research for you. You can buy whatever you want and the chance of you getting some crazy pesticide that shrinks your balls is very low.

If you go into Stop and Shop, sure you can get safe stuff but you have to know how to read the labels and differentiate the quality stuff from the shit.

I see college and Whole Foods the same way. If you go to college, you’re essentially gauranteed to not get shit information. Again liberalism and marxism aside.

This shit is really complex.

There are pros and cons. But Whole Foods costs 10x as much.

But in universities all the info is fact checked, you know you’re getting quality information, and you don’t have to check the sources in everything. When you write a paper you have to cite your work with credible sources so you can’t just make shit up.

Now ‘self education’ Where’s the guarantee you’re not getting bullshit? Like go look at the Book recommendation threads. Where is the gauranteee you’re not getting Quackary?



People are like “I READ! And way better stuff than they teach you in COLLEGE.. lead week I read Think And Grow Delusional and The Secret Law of Attraction by Rhonda BurnedMe” and not having taking science classes think it’s an actual F*cking law. There is definitely no “Law” of Attraction in science. But yet is Self Help every book sports this shit! Positive Thinking is another piece of quackery.

Sure you can learn the stuff elsewhere, but the chances of you getting suckered into some batshit insane philosophy are way higher.

If you really really understand the philosophy of skeptism and critical thinking, then you can parse literature yourself.

Dude, I’m not new to this. I used to read Napoleon Hill. I used to read Tony Robbins. NONE OF IT WILL MAKE YOU SUCCESSFUL. The academic research on success ACTUALLY WILL. I know this from experience, I know this from the data. The Self Help stuff isn’t WRONG, but it’s not going to take you from Point A to Point B.

It’s like if someone is depressed and someone says “you have to be positive.” Well that advice isn’t wrong, but the chance that that advice is going to take you from Point A (depression) to Point B (not depressed) is basically nonexistent. But doctors and psychologists have the answer to depression, and it’s actually on that takes you from A to B. How do we know that? We run experiments under rigorous conditions and take down meticulous data.

This self-help stuff is all quackery.

I mean.. I’m actually not pro-college at all. That’s YOUR assumption. I’m actually Anti-college but pro-academia. That may sound paradox but it’s actually not. I can’t wait until they chase the left’s idealogical agenda out of academia once and for all. The academy has become infiltrated with feminists, marxists, post-modernists, SJWs, safe spaces, trigger warnings, and fall types of other F*ckery. And furthermore, the technology is simply old. I can’t wait until they tear down all the academies and put online schools in their place. Physical colleges are quickly becoming obsolete with MOOCs taking their place. It’s like going to a play vs watching Netflix. To me in 2018 colleges are the equivalent of going to see any live entertainment. Yea sure, going to a live play is cool but in reality it’s a novelty. Or live music. And unless Metallica is in town, which is like 3x per decade, you’re stuck with some shitty local band.

College is the same. Why would I listen to some shitty no-name professor yap about evolution OR rack up 150k in dept to listen to good ones when I can listen to Robert Sapolsky who is literally one of the leading neuroscientists in the world, and posts a lot of his classes online. That guy was literally out in the field darting chimpanzees to measure their neurotransmitter levels while the cuck professor at Whatever Community College was making 32k/year doing whatever. Why would I listed to Professor Nobody when I can use MOOCs and literally listen to Ivy League professors in my kitchen in my underwear. I can listen to some of the top names in Neuroscience, Psychology, whatever rather than some balding loser at community college

But I digress. The idea that you think I’m pro-college is just wrong. It’s complex. i’m certainly pro-science. And I’m certainly pro fact-checking. If you really have to know despite my intelligence, I have BRUTAL ADHD, making it Virtually impossible for me to sit in a classroom. So my “sitting in a classroom” education is actually limited.

These Self-Help books are just feel-good fluff that sounds good, but a “Millionaire Mindset” never made anyone a millionaire. It’s so much more complex than that.

 

[Conrad]

There are plenty of cheap (almost free) top universities in Europe, thanks to our government (& taxes). It's true that the market decides your salary, but nobody stops you from doing a side hustle here. Yes, you can be a construction worker and make the same money in 2 days as an engineer get paid in 1 month. It's all about your personal goals. My engineering background helps me to understand & build more complex systems. Thinking in SYSTEMS is a very helpful skill. If an engineer starts a plumbing business, I bet he 'd make 3x more than a non-engineer.

 

[ChrisV]

@garyfritz

Well that number was specific to plumbers and not even a statistic. Just a guesstimate. It’s probably actually higher though. I think the rate of plumbers making 6 figures is less than the rate of entrepreneurs in other fields. But I posted some rough statistics in an earlier reply

In terms of statistics the numbers aren’t amazing, but they’re actually a lot more optimistic than people say:



Why Some Startups Succeed (and Why Most Fail)

Success rate: What percentage of businesses fail in their first year?

Top 6 Reasons New Businesses Fail

But then again, I totally agree and think that MJ has cracked the code as much as is possible, but you also need certain personality traits to be successful at entrepreneurship. A book that thoroughly analyzes the statistics on entrepreneurship is The Illusions of Entrepreneurship by Scott A. Shane. The entire book is devoted to entrepreneurship statistics:

Contents

Acknowledgments
Introduction
1: America: Land of Entrepreneurship in an Entrepreneurial Era?
2: What Are Today’s Entrepreneurial Industries?
3: Who Becomes an Entrepreneur?
4: What Does the Typical Start-Up Look Like?
5: How Are New Businesses Financed?
6: How Well Does the Typical Entrepreneur Do?
7: What Makes Some Entrepreneurs More Successful Than Others?
8: Why Don’t Women Start More Companies?
9: Why Is Black Entrepreneurship So Rare?
10: How Valuable Is the Average Start-Up?
Conclusion
Notes
Index”​

It includes data on each of those topics.

I posted an excerpt earlier in the thread and if there are any specific stats you want I can look them up.



The issue is that people with high creativity almost have to be entrepreneurs, because entrepreneurs are high in creativity. So that’s why you get a lot of ‘don’t follow the herd’ sentiments around here. A lot of people (most actually) are perfectly happy following the herd. They like waking up at 7 every day, being at work at 9, getting their predictable, stable paycheck, then retiring with their 401k. This forum is disproportionally full of creative people. Creative types are more drawn to entrepreneurship (another topic Dr. Peterson spoke on.) So we really don’t have a choice. Entrepreneurial types not being Entrepreneurial is like a bird without wings. I sometimes think that being creative is more curse than gift. Honestly, if you want to make a good living, Entrepreneurship is maybe the last thing i’d recommend lol... I think it’s just better for people like us who are creative.

 

[YoungPadawan]

The type of person that is willing to educate themselves for the rest of their lives.

Boom, there it is. I'm a firm believer in lifelong education, but not by force-feeding non-related subjects down peoples throats. I personally am not a big fan of the modern day education system.

I went to college and I regret it. I learned waaay more on my own in the library than I ever did in actual class. Why the hell did I have to take a biology class and choir class for a business management degree? Just teach me what I need to know and be done with it.

I firmly believe the phrase, "leaders are readers." Reading gives you the ability to turbo-charge your learning and learn from the experience of others. In the time it took to read one textbook in a class, I could read 15 books.

In college, you learn as fast as the stupidest person in the class.

Rep++ @ChrisV for putting a lot of effort into your posts.

 

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[ChrisV]

Rep++ @ChrisV For putting a lot of effort into your posts.

thanks man... i sometimes don’t want to come off as arguing.. but these debates end up bringing up a lot of good points that i think people can benefit from.. and also help me clarify my own positions

Reading gives you the ability to turbo-charge your learning and learn from the experience of others.

THIS... f---in this

Newton said “if i have seen farther it is becasue i stood on the shoulders of giants”

when you read about the successes and failures of others, you don’t have to make those mistakes yourself.. it saves a lot of time

 

[garyfritz]

You say “I know. guy making 100K being a plumber.”
Now I look at the data and see only 2% of plumbers are making that level.
So for every ‘plumber you know making 100K’ there literally 49 plumbers who are not. It’s just not representative of the sample.
Great, it’s possible. It’s just not likely.

I'm sure this won't be a popular sentiment, but... I would love to see similar data for the success rate of entrepreneurs. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% certain that the success rate for people in the Fastlane community is significantly higher than the success rate of non-FLers. MJ's teachings are solid and have pointed a lot of people in the right direction. But even among the FL community there are plenty of frustrated "non-success" stories. People here often say "don't waste your money in the stock market [or whatever], you'll get much higher returns by investing in your business." That's true IF you have built or are building a successful business. But how often do we read about somebody who's blown his ad budget with no results, or invested in importing a product and can't sell it, etc? How many people NEVER grow their business to a successful level?

I think a lot of "100K plumber" stories get told around here. Yes, entrepreneurial success is absolutely possible, and it's much more likely than the 2% rate @ChrisV mentioned. But how likely? I have no idea, but I'm sure it's nowhere near 100%.

Once you've built a business or two, it becomes a lot easier. "The second million is always easier." @biophase and @MidwestLandlord are great examples of this. Once you've done it, you have experience, you have connections, you have understanding of what does & doesn't work, you have cashflow to fund the new venture, etc. And you've already demonstrated you have the drive and stick-to-it-ive-ness to make it work, so of course you can do it again if you want to. It's a bit like saying "You play for the Patriots, so you could probably go play for any other team in the NFL."

But that doesn't say anything about Joe Sixpack on the sidelines. Coming on as an undrafted free agent is a lot more daunting. You can greatly improve your chances of success by following the advice of successful people here -- but there's some lottery-ticket luck involved too.

 

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[ChrisV]

Just curious, what kind of personality do you need?

Oh man, here we go ;D

The first thing is Intelligence.



IQ is very predictive of success.

Do you have to be smart to be rich? The impact of IQ on wealth, income and financial distress

The next is a trait called Conscientiousness, which his actually more predictive statistically of life success than IQ.





Conscientiousness is huge to success. Huge.

Spoiler: Conscientiousness definition

Conscientiousness is the personality trait of being careful, or vigilant. Conscientiousness implies a desire to do a task well, and to take obligations to others seriously. Conscientious people tend to be efficient and organized as opposed to easy-going and disorderly. They exhibit a tendency to show self-discipline, act dutifully, and aim for achievement; they display planned rather than spontaneous behavior; and they are generally dependable. It is manifested in characteristic behaviors such as being neat, and systematic; also including such elements as carefulness, thoroughness, and deliberation (the tendency to think carefully before acting.)[1] Conscientiousness is one of the five traits of both the Five Factor Model and the HEXACO model of personality and is an aspect of what has traditionally been referred to as having character. Conscientious individuals are generally hard-working, and reliable. They are also likely to be conformists.[2] When taken to an extreme, they may also be "workaholics", perfectionists, and compulsive in their behavior.[3] People who score low on conscientiousness tend to be laid back, less goal-oriented, and less driven by success; they also are more likely to engage in antisocial and criminal behavior.[4]​

Conscientiousness is characterized by self-control, organization, and goal orientation and is positively related to a number of health and professional outcomes. Thus, it is commonly suggested that conscientiousness should be related to superior executive functioning (EF) abilities, especially prepotent response inhibition. However, little empirical support for this notion has emerged, perhaps due to oversimplified and underspecified modeling of EF. The current study sought to fill this gap by testing relations between conscientiousness and three facets of EF using a nested factors latent variable approach. Participants (N = 420; Mage  = 22.5; 50% male; 91% Caucasian) completed a measure of conscientiousness and nine EF tasks designed to tap three related yet distinguishable facets of EF: working memory updating, mental set shifting, and prepotent response inhibition. Structural equation models showed that conscientiousness is positively associated with the EF facet of mental set shifting but not response inhibition or working memory updating. Despite the common notion that conscientiousness is associated with cognitive abilities related to rigid control over impulses (i.e., inhibition), the current results suggest the cognitive ability most associated with conscientiousness is characterized by flexibility and the ability to adapt to changing environmental contingencies and task demands.

Lower psychometric conscientiousness and steeper discounting of future rewards at age 14 also predicts problematic drug use at age 16, but the neural responses independently predict more variance than psychometric measures. Together, these findings suggest that diminished neural responses to anticipated rewards in novelty-seeking adolescents may increase vulnerability to future problematic drug use.​

Frontiers in Psychology - Who does well in life? Conscientious adults excel in both objective and subjective success

LOW Aggreeableness is also correlated for a couple reasons. People low on agreeableness are competitive, and also less likely to puss out on income negotiations.

So basically (in order of importance):

Hard worker, neat, smart, competitive

In technical terms:

high industriousness, high orderliness, high IQ, low agreeableness

How much you can change these traits is another topic. They’re about 50% hereditary, but there are things you can do.

t depends what and how you are using "self-help". But to say it's all quackery is like saying the stock market didn't work for me, the stock market doesn't work.

Valid criticism. I generally thing Self-Help from folks in Academia is amazing. Angela Duckworth, Gabriele Oettingen, Jordan B. Peterson, Dr. Robert Sapolsky. Those authors are top-level PhDs in their respective fields. But I usually call those books “Personal Development” rather than “Self Help.” Just a personal preference.

 

[ChrisV]

You got it Avanle. Chris has valid points - if you like studies. Then they have studies on studies. If you delve too much into that you get paralysis by analysis.

I know SO many successful people, and the most amazing thing is that their success did not come from their superior education. It came from their stubbornness to master a particular job. And their jobs aren't sexy. Two are in construction - one does lawn care - one is in real estate - one is a plumber - one is an electrician - one is a welder - one has a restaurant. There are two things they all have in common - one, they achieved their success all on their own, and two, they are all millionaires. Damn the charts and studies - these people have things to do today!

In my own multiple careers, I have mastered every career I've ever undertaken. It's not because I'm smart. Many people that I've competed with are smarter than me, but I have triumphed when we crossed paths in business. I came out the winner - as so many of my friends do as well. Is it luck? Is it genetics? Is it my good looks? What could it be?

It's this. I take apart a market piece by piece to study it and figure out the WHY the leader of the market is successful - then I figure out the HOW, and build my business machine bigger and better. Not accounting for time restraints, ANYONE could duplicate the success I have had, or any of my friends have had, as well. It comes down to just doing it, and never staying stagnant. Keep improving day by day.

Not being "educated" is indeed a blessing for so many people I know because we don't know how hard it is to go against the odds. If only we had seen the charts and graphs. But we didn't, so we pushed on ahead anyway - despite our limitations.

It is easy to capture any market. That doesn't mean I would want to, but it could be done. I can take any business apart and figure out how to outmaneuver them - if I have the time to devote to it. It might take years or decades, but it can be done. Even the almighty Wal-Mart is fighting for market share. Even Musk came along and is teaching the car manufacturers a thing or two. Jobs reinvented technology and took it to new heights. All one man people - just one man made all the difference.

Call me delusional - call me ignorant - call me uneducated. I'm in great company. My heroes were all called the same thing at one point in time.

Great post @Ayanle Farah. I'm on your side 100%!

I thought i was going to regret this, but it wasn’t that bad.

See, you seem to have this dichotomy in your brain. A dichotomy where there are “Learners” and there are “Doers”.... and the “Doers” don’t have time for learning because they’re too busy “doing”... and I don’t know where you get the idea that they’re mutually exclusive. As if people who get educations just get educations for the sake of education and put their thumb in their a$$. You learn shit to do shit better. People don’t learn shit just so they can recite the alphabet better

It's this. I take apart a market piece by piece to study it and figure out the WHY the leader of the market is successful - then I figure out the HOW, and build my business machine bigger and better. Not accounting for time restraints, ANYONE could duplicate the success I have had, or any of my friends have had, as well. It comes down to just doing it, and never staying stagnant. Keep improving day by day.

So then rather than trolling every thread and acting like you’re superior to highly respected professors (highly respected in academia, highly respected even on this forum).. rather than than how about posting threads that are useful.

I’ve left enough breadcrumbs just in this thread alone where someone can put the pieces together and make a 6-7 figure income. Do a little research on conscientiousness and IQ and boom, you’ll make a f---n fortune.

 

[ChrisV]

i usually don’t get that personal on this forum, esp not the main forum but shit

there’s a major reason i’m so scientifically-minded

this was about 7 or so years ago..

before that i went through 10+ years of Major Depression. serious, torturous stuff for ten+ years.

i thought self-help had an answer for me.. i listened to all of it... Tony Robbins, Napoleon Hill, Bob Proctor

i swore it worked. i mean i had no results, but it made so much sense.... positive thinking.. how could you argue with that? how could you possibly argue that positive thinking wasn’t the answer?

But it still wasn’t doing anything for me. i preached it from the rooftops, but i still had this constant tormentor that followed me around daily. it was an internal torture chamber.

I eventually had a "FTE" said F*ck this and dug into medical journals. I learned about chemical imbalances, and all the stuff these ‘positive thinking’ guys said was bullshit. i learned about serotonin and dopamine and endorphin and GABA.. but the positive thinking guys said that wasn’t the problem.. it was my 'negative thinking'... the doctors and scientists said otherwise. the research said otherwise. but the positive thinking guys knew better than the scientists.

What was the problem? The problem was so F*cking embarrassingly simple that i almost wish it were my ‘negative thought patterns’

The problem was, without getting into all the complex science behind this.. there’s a brain chemical called serotonin. it’s the main chemical theorized to be responsible for depression. So there’s actually dietary protein called tryptophan. when ingested your body converts it to 5-HTP then Serotonin.



I bought tryptophan supplements from GNC and the problem went away within a week. My problem that literally f---ing tortured me for over a decade was a f---ing deficiency in a single retarded dietary protein.

How did the positive thinking guys miss that? And furthermore, why are they spouting knowledge they simply don’t have.

But that was the first shift.... the next was how i simply became extremely skeptical. and i don’t mean skeptical in a negative sense.. i mean in the sense of demanding evidence. I don’t are about one guy saying something works... I want 1000 people saying it works. 90% o the time I’m not even going to waste my time looking into something that one person says works

in the past 7+ years i’ve started applying that philosophy to basically everything i do, and the difference it’s made is disgusting. There’s really been no goal i’ve set out to achieve that i haven’t accomplished. Sometimes it takes a bit put the pieces together.. sometimes months... but at least i know i’m not chasing ghosts


Since I made that shift from believing little anecdotes to demanding real evidence or data

and that is an idea that is pounded into you in academia. it doesn’t even have to be academia. just buy books that cite their sources for god’s sake Kevin Hogan wrote a great quote:

Read everything that matters. If it doesn’t have a bibliography, it is fiction. Fiction is for fun when time permits. Fiction is GREAT. I love fiction. And when my research is done, I go straight to Greg Iles or James Rollins or Matthew Riley or whoever…but FIRST, read material that is going to REALLY help you.​

And I agree 100%. If a book doesn’t have references, it’s fiction as far as I’m concerned. Even if it does have references, they could be shit references. That’s generally very rare though. I rarely even pick up a book unless the author has at least one or two PhDs. And that sounds shallow, and I definitely makes exceptions because there are brilliant authors without PhDs ( @MJ DeMarco obviously being one, ) but in general I find it to be much higher quality.

I am really really happy about the newfound fame of Jordan Peterson (he talks about serotonin and diet quite a bit) because he’s actually bringing science to the conversation, and i’m even more happy that people care. I’m more happy that people are buying scientific personal development materials than there is someone selling it, if that makes sense.

But yea... whatever

 

[The Abundant Man]

I truly believe we are gonna be one of the first generation to actually not push our kids to go to college.

That's the only way this bubble is gonna pop. Reverse social conditioning.

We have seen first hand that at the end of the day the laws of economics wins. A college degree when commoditized and over priced becomes worthless.

When mass crowds over populate a space its value has no where to go but down.

Our economy has created jobs there no doubt but these jobs are not high paying professional jobs. More like working at amazon or target kind of jobs.

The jobs academia trained for are gone and they will never return.

The modern day college system is a product of the Industrial Revolution. We're in the Information Age now.

 

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[ChrisV]

no amount of graphs or charts can compare to real life experience.

Like clockwork.





Also, I’m not sure why I’m responding. It’s more for the people who want to read what I’m writing more than actually wanting to debate this crap.... I looked at the paper they cited

How the f--- do you get anything about an “IQ myth” from this. You can’t just cite a paper then pretend that it says whatever you want it to say, even when it said nothing like that.

This is the paper:



This is the headline lmfao:





I went back and read the article you linked and they didn’t even claim that IQ was bullshit lol.. they just said that ‘chalking it down to one number is an oversimplification"

Actually the paper argues in favor of “g” intelligence (general intelligence) ... dude, do you know how to read these papers? It doesn't even say what you think it said at all. It literally said that “g” is what all intelligences have in common, which is exactly psychologists’ claim. IQ research is so well established that you might as well be arguing for an existence for a flat earth. IQ is predictive of so many different measures of success arguing it is embarrassing.




But I’m definitely not doing this ‘the data doesn't matter cuz I was there” stuff

 

[Davejemmolly]

I truly believe we are gonna be one of the first generation to actually not push our kids to go to college.

Couldn't agree more with this... my kids are 8 and 11, both the wife and I are university educated and won't be encouraging our kids to do the same.

Whilst my plan has ultimately stemmed from job knowledge my education got me, I could have certainly got that domain knowledge another way, and much cheaper in the process!

 

[Real Deal Denver]

Annnnnddddddd there it is. I swear to God I didn’t even see his post before I wrote that. I literally just just unblocked him.

It’s like clockwork.

Step up to the plate college boy. Let's see what you've got; besides college studies ad nauseam.

I know numerous people that are very successful without the advantage of your superior education that you love to flaunt. It would be nice if you could respect that. It doesn't take anything away from their accomplishments, but it sure makes you look somewhat like an over educated... oh, let's not go there.

Instead of demeaning and insulting people, and entire professions even, why don't you ever enlighten us with what it is that you do?

A lot of people tolerate you hanging around and acting like Mr. Big Deal. I think your charade is now overdone a bit.

Let's hear some good ol success stories, instead of your constant put downs. That would be refreshing, for a change. Everyone else chimes in on their success from time to time and speak from their experience. Another version of your interpretation of someone else's lecture is not what anyone needs to hear. Anymore.

We don't even know you, so you can lie if you'd like. Just anything - for a change...

 

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[Real Deal Denver]

You’re like one of those little ankle dogs who keeps attacking you no matter how many times you kick it.

 

[Ayanle Farah]

Oh man, here we go ;D

The first thing is Intelligence.

View attachment 22087

IQ is very predictive of success.

Do you have to be smart to be rich? The impact of IQ on wealth, income and financial distress

The next is a trait called Conscientiousness, which his actually more predictive statistically of life success than IQ.

View attachment 22088

View attachment 22089

Conscientiousness is huge to success. Huge.

Spoiler: Conscientiousness definition

Conscientiousness is the personality trait of being careful, or vigilant. Conscientiousness implies a desire to do a task well, and to take obligations to others seriously. Conscientious people tend to be efficient and organized as opposed to easy-going and disorderly. They exhibit a tendency to show self-discipline, act dutifully, and aim for achievement; they display planned rather than spontaneous behavior; and they are generally dependable. It is manifested in characteristic behaviors such as being neat, and systematic; also including such elements as carefulness, thoroughness, and deliberation (the tendency to think carefully before acting.)[1] Conscientiousness is one of the five traits of both the Five Factor Model and the HEXACO model of personality and is an aspect of what has traditionally been referred to as having character. Conscientious individuals are generally hard-working, and reliable. They are also likely to be conformists.[2] When taken to an extreme, they may also be "workaholics", perfectionists, and compulsive in their behavior.[3] People who score low on conscientiousness tend to be laid back, less goal-oriented, and less driven by success; they also are more likely to engage in antisocial and criminal behavior.[4]​

Conscientiousness is characterized by self-control, organization, and goal orientation and is positively related to a number of health and professional outcomes. Thus, it is commonly suggested that conscientiousness should be related to superior executive functioning (EF) abilities, especially prepotent response inhibition. However, little empirical support for this notion has emerged, perhaps due to oversimplified and underspecified modeling of EF. The current study sought to fill this gap by testing relations between conscientiousness and three facets of EF using a nested factors latent variable approach. Participants (N = 420; Mage  = 22.5; 50% male; 91% Caucasian) completed a measure of conscientiousness and nine EF tasks designed to tap three related yet distinguishable facets of EF: working memory updating, mental set shifting, and prepotent response inhibition. Structural equation models showed that conscientiousness is positively associated with the EF facet of mental set shifting but not response inhibition or working memory updating. Despite the common notion that conscientiousness is associated with cognitive abilities related to rigid control over impulses (i.e., inhibition), the current results suggest the cognitive ability most associated with conscientiousness is characterized by flexibility and the ability to adapt to changing environmental contingencies and task demands.

Lower psychometric conscientiousness and steeper discounting of future rewards at age 14 also predicts problematic drug use at age 16, but the neural responses independently predict more variance than psychometric measures. Together, these findings suggest that diminished neural responses to anticipated rewards in novelty-seeking adolescents may increase vulnerability to future problematic drug use.​

Frontiers in Psychology - Who does well in life? Conscientious adults excel in both objective and subjective success

LOW Aggreeableness is also correlated for a couple reasons. People low on agreeableness are competitive, and also less likely to puss out on income negotiations.

So basically (in order of importance):

Hard worker, neat, smart, competitive

In technical terms:

high industriousness, high orderliness, high IQ, low agreeableness

How much you can change these traits is another topic. They’re about 50% hereditary, but there are things you can do.


Valid criticism. I generally thing Self-Help from folks in Academia is amazing. Angela Duckworth, Gabriele Oettingen, Jordan B. Peterson, Dr. Robert Sapolsky. Those authors are top-level PhDs in their respective fields. But I usually call those books “Personal Development” rather than “Self Help.” Just a personal preference.

Yeah, I was about to say, hard work is the best predictor to success. You have to be smart aswell but IQ has little to do with intelligence.

 

[Real Deal Denver]

Yeah, I was about to say, hard work is the best predictor to success. You have to be smart aswell but IQ has little to do with intelligence.

You got it Avanle. Chris has valid points - if you like studies. Then they have studies on studies. If you delve too much into that you get paralysis by analysis.

I know SO many successful people, and the most amazing thing is that their success did not come from their superior education. It came from their stubbornness to master a particular job. And their jobs aren't sexy. Two are in construction - one does lawn care - one is in real estate - one is a plumber - one is an electrician - one is a welder - one has a restaurant. There are two things they all have in common - one, they achieved their success all on their own, and two, they are all millionaires. Damn the charts and studies - these people have things to do today!

In my own multiple careers, I have mastered every career I've ever undertaken. It's not because I'm smart. Many people that I've competed with are smarter than me, but I have triumphed when we crossed paths in business. I came out the winner - as so many of my friends do as well. Is it luck? Is it genetics? Is it my good looks? What could it be?

It's this. I take apart a market piece by piece to study it and figure out the WHY the leader of the market is successful - then I figure out the HOW, and build my business machine bigger and better. Not accounting for time restraints, ANYONE could duplicate the success I have had, or any of my friends have had, as well. It comes down to just doing it, and never staying stagnant. Keep improving day by day.

Not being "educated" is indeed a blessing for so many people I know because we don't know how hard it is to go against the odds. If only we had seen the charts and graphs. But we didn't, so we pushed on ahead anyway - despite our limitations.

It is easy to capture any market. That doesn't mean I would want to, but it could be done. I can take any business apart and figure out how to outmaneuver them - if I have the time to devote to it. It might take years or decades, but it can be done. Even the almighty Wal-Mart is fighting for market share. Even Musk came along and is teaching the car manufacturers a thing or two. Jobs reinvented technology and took it to new heights. All one man people - just one man made all the difference.

Call me delusional - call me ignorant - call me uneducated. I'm in great company. My heroes were all called the same thing at one point in time.

Great post @Ayanle Farah. I'm on your side 100%!

 

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[ChrisV]

Narcissistic Personality Disorder: Tips for Spotting and Coping with a Narcissist

It’s not Narcism when you’re really as awesome as i am ;D

 

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[Real Deal Denver]

We have seen first hand that at the end of the day the laws of economics wins. A college degree when commoditized and over priced becomes worthless.

BRILLIANT! This bears repeating!

 

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[The Abundant Man]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nrCh2we0Gw

 

[ChrisV]

In GENERAL, with PLENTY of exceptions, there is more polish to someone with a college degree. Regardless of degree or not, you can pretty easily tell when someone decided that education isn't important. It isn't pretty.

The polish is a big thing. I can usually talk to someone for 5 minutes and tell their educational background.

People who are poorly educated make major reasoning errors. They say things like “Smoking doesn’t kill... my uncle smoked 2 packs per day and lived to be 90!” or “The economy wasn't bad in 2008... I made $500,000 that year!”

90% of the educated will realize the error in those statements right away. 90% of non educated won’t even realize what’s wrong with those statements. And that’s the problem.

 

[ChrisV]

People who are poorly educated make major reasoning errors. They say things like “Smoking doesn’t kill... my uncle smoked 2 packs per day and lived to be 90!” or “The economy wasn't bad in 2008... I made $500,000 that year!”

One of my best friends is a master plumber, making 6 figures a year, and basically planning and supervising. He has a cushy job that he loves, and he's making the big bucks as a bonus.

Annnnnddddddd there it is. I swear to God I didn’t even see his post before I wrote that. I literally just just unblocked him.

It’s like clockwork.

 

[Real Deal Denver]

 

[ChrisV]

I’m not insulting people who made it... nor would I ever. I’m over educated? Dude I literally JUST said that my formal education is extremely limited.

As far as people who made it without school? That’s awesome for them. I’m happy for them.

I also know a guy who won 10 million dollars in the lottery. I’m not going to recommend that people play the lottery. Your argument is the statistical equivalent of “playing the lottery is a good idea because I know a guy who won”

I know plenty of people who were successful without college.@ApparentHorizon being one (actually I’m not sure his educational background I just think he’s bright)

I don’t care about college... i’m pro-science. I’m pro-data.refer to my last post please.

But there is utility to college. And your anti-intelectualism is something i see ALL the time. You’re one in a million that thinks they’re smarter than doctors. Formal education has it’s pros and cons. But it does have utility. Even entrepreneurs are more likely to be successful if they have college

“There are hundreds of stories about entrepreneurs like J. R. Simplot, the inventor of the frozen French fry, who quit school at age 14 to start a company, which grew into a $3-billion business. These stories have led to the myth that education doesn’t help you become a successful entrepreneur and that it may even hinder your efforts.

Don’t be deluded by this myth. People with little education who become successful entrepreneurs are few and far between. If you want to become a successful entrepreneur, your odds are much better if you graduate from high school and go on to college. Many studies show that better educated entrepreneurs have greater access to external capital, lower business failure rates, greater business sales and employment growth, and more profitable ventures.24 In fact, the data show that the average start-up founded by a college graduate has 25 percent greater sales than the average start-up founded by a high school dropout, and the average start-up founded by a person with a graduate degree has 40 percent greater sales than the average start-up founded by a college graduate.25”​

Now you can debate causality and maybe say “well the types of people who are likely to graduate college are the same ones who are successful”.. which might be a valid argument, but I think it’s a little of both.

If someone makes it without school, great. Even a lot of the more successful entrepreneurs On this forum are graduates @Kak , MJ.


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[ChrisV]

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