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Learning to Program is STUPID! (or SMART?!)

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healthstatus

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An interesting thread. What if I only care about coding? I can code (and develop complex systems, implement concepts), but have zero ideas about anything else in the world.
Then you are a candidate to be a programmer. Team up with one of the big idea people.
 
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BRIANDAVE

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Then you are a candidate to be a programmer. Team up with one of the big idea people.
I don't think learning programming is stupid. I'd always advice anyone to go with their guts on this, if you have a project in mind, learn the basics of the programming languages you will need, then get to work, that way you will learn better working on a real project, than working on theories that you might never use, for months or even years.

Learning sales is important no doubt, but it's a choice for anyone to pick a priority first (coding or sales), depending on set goals.

Also before learning any skill, It's also necessary for everyone to have a set limit, not to learn the skill to be good enough in it ( have a specific goal, so you can dedicate your time to other important things)

Hope this helps.
 

jakobgreenfeld

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I love coding but I fully agree that it's a trap. Being a coder and being an entrepreneur are two very different jobs. And when you're able to code you'll always be tempted to work in the business instead of on the business which inevitably slows down growth or even kill the company in the long run.
 
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SiuLung

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Just read all this thread, it was an interesting conversation with a lot of different opinions.

However, we have to keep in mind that we live in a society, and that we're bound to other people even if we don't want to. That's why our economic system is comprised of people executing different tasks: that's what we call the division of labour.

So, I think the marketer needs the developer / product maker, and vice versa.

Do you think Walmart would be here without manufacturers? Manufacturers wouldn't move this much products without distribution channels.

This thread almost made me stop picking up programming again. But I figured I'd rather do anything than spend the rest of my time pondering what I should do, like I used to up until now.

So, for future references, just know it's possible to launch successful businesses by learning how to program. I didn't do it (yet, hopefully).

https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/co...-from-scratch-vfx-software.73281/#post-596702 (you have to be an INSIDERS to see it)

https://www.indiehackers.com/product/closet-assistant -> This guy was an electrical engineer, learned how to code on his own, and then learned SEO. He made a web app to automate selling on Poshmark. His wife was his first customer. Then he grew it to now 40K per month. Pretty good I guess.

Do what you think is better for you and adjust along the way.
 
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Jav100

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Just read all this thread, it was an interesting conversation with a lot of different opinions.

However, we have to keep in mind that we live in a society, and that we're bound to other people even if we don't want to. That's why our economic system is comprised of people executing different tasks: that's what we call the division of labour.

So, I think the marketer needs the developer / product maker, and vice versa.

Do you think Walmart would be here without manufacturers? Manufacturers wouldn't move this much products without distribution channels.

This thread almost made me stop picking up programming again. But I figured I'd rather do anything than spend the rest of my time pondering what I should do, like I used to up until now.

So, for future references, just know it's possible to launch successful businesses by learning how to program. I didn't do it (yet, hopefully).

https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/co...-from-scratch-vfx-software.73281/#post-596702 (you have to be an INSIDERS to see it)

https://www.indiehackers.com/product/closet-assistant -> This guy was an electrical engineer, learned how to code on his own, and then learned SEO. He made a web app to automate selling on Poshmark. His wife was his first customer. Then he grew it to now 40K per month. Pretty good I guess.

Do what you think is better for you and adjust along the way.
agree - i am a sales /marketing professional and the idea of coding seems great until i try it and dread it

although hearing about recent success stories (i.e. coinbase ipo) around founders who made an app and hit it big always make me think again about programming :)
 

Saad Khan

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SOME of the books recommended to me by a pro copywriter.

However if you want to accelerate you'll need to pay for a mentor

"Scientific Advertising" Claude Hopkins

"Tested Advertising" Caples (4th edition or earlier only)

"How I Raised Myself from a Failure to Success in Selling" Betger

"How to Write a Good Advertisement" Schwab.

"How to Write Sales Letters That Sell" Drayton Bird

"The Robert Collier Letter Book" - by Robert Collier

"Tested Advertising Methods" -by John Caples

"The Lazy Man's Way to Riches" - by Joe Karbo

"Break-Through Advertising" - by Eugene M. Schwartz

"Advertising Secrets of The Written Word" by Joe Sugarman

"Making Ads Pay" by John Caples

Web Copy That Sells by Maria Veloso

The Architecture of Persuasion by Michael Masterson

Influence The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini

The Adweek Copywriting Handbook by Joe Sugarman

"The Elements of Copywriting" by Gary Blake and Robert Bly

"The Ultimate Sales Letter" by Dan Kennedy

Cashvertising by Drew Eric Whitman

"Write to sell " it is written by Andy Maslen

"Influencing Human Behaviour" by H.A.

"Tested Sentences That Sell" by Elmer Wheeler

"Unlimited Selling Power" by Moine and Lloyd.

Writing for Emotional Impact by Karl Iglesias

Bob Bly's "The Copywriter's Handbook"

How To Make Your Advertising Make Money - John Caples

The Copywriters Handbook - Bob Bly

The Adweek Copywriting Handbook - Joseph Sugarman

Sales Letters That Sizzle - Herschell Gordon Lewis

Cash Copy - Jeffrey Lant

Magic Words That Bring You Riches - Ted Nicholas

Ogilvy On Advertising

Method Marketing by Denny Hatch.

My First 50 Years in Advertising by Maxwell Sackheim.

The Greatest Direct Mail Sales Letters of all Time " by Richard Hodgson.

How To Write Advertising That Sells by Clyde Bedell

Ads That Sell by Bob Bly

Advertising Headlines That Make You Rich-- David Garfinkle

Magic Words-- Ted Nicholas

Robert Collier Letter Book-- Robert Collier

My Life In Advertising -- Claude Hopkins

Bird - Commonsense

The First Hundred Million by E. Haldeman-Julius

David Ogilvy's "Blood, Brains and Beer"

"Confessions of an advertising man"

"Million Dollar Mailings" by Denison Hatch

"The Wizard of Ads" trilogy by Roy H. Williams

Making Ads Pay by John Caples

Method Marketing - Denison Hatch

"How to Write Sales Letters that Sell" by Drayton Bird.

Hypnotic Writing -- Joe Vitale

"The Lazy Man's Way to Riches" - by Joe Karbo

Denny Hatch's Million Dollar Mailings
OMG that's a lot! I started reading Cashvertising and I wonder how much more value will be in these books. A part of me wants to know all the secrets right now.

Amazing how a thread nearly a decade ago is helping a person. What a world we live in!
 

Black_Dragon43

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OMG that's a lot! I started reading Cashvertising and I wonder how much more value will be in these books. A part of me wants to know all the secrets right now.

Amazing how a thread nearly a decade ago is helping a person. What a world we live in!
Unless your aim is to be a pro copywriter, start a marketing agency, be a marketing consultant, a business coach or similar, please don’t spend the next years reading through all these books haha :p

Instead, read a few, and start executing. Back 10 years ago when I started as a copywriter, I had just read Ca$hvertising and started writing copy for clients and for myself.

It took many years till I finally got around to all these other books, and I now own a marketing agency… this is basically how I make my money.

I know @Lex DeVille also started by reading just Ca$hvertising if memory serves me well.

So don’t get stuck with the books, start taking action. The best way to learn copy is to write it, and go over copy written by the masters: sales letters, ads, etc. which you naturally will do when you actually write your own copy. You’ll be forced to research what’s already working out there.
 
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LiveEntrepreneur

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Unless your aim is to be a pro copywriter, start a marketing agency, be a marketing consultant, a business coach or similar, please don’t spend the next years reading through all these books haha :p

Instead, read a few, and start executing. Back 10 years ago when I started as a copywriter, I had just read Ca$hvertising and started writing copy for clients and for myself.

It took many years till I finally got around to all these other books, and I now own a marketing agency… this is basically how I make my money.

I know @Lex DeVille also started by reading just Ca$hvertising if memory serves me well.

So don’t get stuck with the books, start taking action. The best way to learn copy is to write it, and go over copy written by the masters: sales letters, ads, etc. which you naturally will do when you actually write your own copy. You’ll be forced to research what’s already working out there.
This is probably one of the best pieces of advice anyone can give you. I wasted 6+ years in an endless loop reading books lol.
 

jlguitar

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Thats absolutely right. But the fact that you and others who are pro-code-learning ignore is that all those famous technology founders who coded themselves were programmers BEFORE they even thought about starting a business. They were programmers and saw a need in the market to put their skills to use. Not the other way around as people on this board.

Don't get me wrong, I think programming/web development is a great skill to have as an entrepreneur. I started building websites etc when I was 10 or 11, back when the web was completely different. And this experience definitely helps me in my thinking today. But if I would start today I wouldn't learn how to program, because there are enough cheap programmers available to build a prototype for you. What I would learn though are the big picture concepts of web/app development, tools like mockup-creation, be familiar with the technologies out there (e.g. know what programming/scripting languages exist and what they are used for, understand different database concepts, sql vs. nosql etc). Don't learn programming, but learn how to work with programmers to achieve the results you want.
Would you recommend Shopify/WordPress development though? I am a web developer, but I understand that there is little point in reinventing the wheel every time.
 

Marzook

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Would you recommend Shopify/WordPress development though? I am a web developer, but I understand that there is little point in reinventing the wheel every time.
not sure if this is best worth your time. Unless you are devoted to it, you can hire those to do this dirty work for you eventually. Its all a matter of time trade-off.
 
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gavindoughtie

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I've been a professional programmer for decades and have worked at [big companies]. If the primary value of your business is the technological capability of your software you should learn to code. As a data point, my experiences have led me to have the personal rule of never working at a software company whose CEO hasn't written a significant amount of code. Otherwise they're less likely to run it successfully than a marketing company run by somebody who can't write good copy.

Even if your primary product isn't software technology, if your business relies upon an excellent custom app or website to function, how are you going to even evaluate the skills of the programmers you hire to implement it?

This is NOT to say that you need to learn to code if your value-add to the world needs some well-understood software like blogs, forums, shopping carts and so on. I'd just be wary of blindly giving away control of your critical software product development if you can't understand what the programmers are doing. It's like not being able to read the contracts and balance sheets that define your business even though you're not an attorney or accountant.
 
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thechosen1

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It's like not being able to read the contracts and balance sheets that define your business even though you're not an attorney or accountant.
Wow this is an excellent analogy!

Off topic, but I want to emphasize what you said here: you do not need to be a lawyer or an accountant to read financials or legal documents and make good decisions.

That's what successful entrepreneurs and businessmen do: they learn stuff and figure it out. If we all needed to have every single degree/formal background, we would never do anything!

You only need to know what you need to know, and only when you need to know it.
 
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rodvaN

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I totally disagree.
The future is about AI, Automation, IoT and dApps. If you dont know how to code, you are out of business. Unless you have a lot of money to pay expensive coders.

If you want to do something right, sometimes you gotta do it yourself. Look at Zuckerberg, Gates, Wozniak, etc. They all know how to code.
 
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pat9000

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Seems like low to no code advancements will speed the process of coding up considerably. It's like web development in the 90s vs today with Shopify or WordPress.

Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Thomas Edison; they're all marketers and salesmen that can dive deep if needed.

It's like trying to learn how to become a doctor when you break your arm instead of just...hiring a doctor! Haha. Coding is just another tool in the toolbelt. As a businessman, it's your job to put these tools to work to build the hypothetical house.
 

SharpeningBlade

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2012. Haha.

If you would have started coding then you could be making 400k+/year as an employee for a tech firm and you could funnel all the rest of your free time into developing side channels. Or you could have developed side channels and be making $millions. So it's all relative. But this is a freaking great thread regardless.

Having spent years on a CS degree I'm already too damn deep in the game of coding to turn around, but I'm learning copywriting and marketing now for my digital/media agency so I can be a f**king marketing beast as well and don't need to rely on anyone to implement ideas flawlessly.
 

Black_Dragon43

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To add to my previous points, if your real passion in life is to make money, getting started in direct response copywriting and/or sales is ideal. You enjoy seeing the money come in, so it’s the most natural place for you to be in. Just like how some guys are naturally attracted to sitting in front of a computer and solving a complex problem with software and coding. I’d say if money is your passion, go into copywriting if you’re an introvert and into sales if you’re an extrovert. No better starting point.

One thing I’ve learned this year is that you should not fight your natural inclinations. It is a mistake to do so. You’re looking for the ideal business for YOU, not for anyone else. There is no universal ideal.

Having said that, copywriting by itself is a higher leverage skill than programming. As a copywriter you’ll be able to earn more simply because you’re closer to generating more sales. Now, if your goal isn’t to become a guru, consultant, pro copywriter, or agency owner it’s probably not wise to invest an enormous amount of time learning how to write copy. You’re better off focusing on what YOU want to do, and then learning copy as you need it for your specific purposes. In the next year, I’ll be finishing the remaining 7 books of all the top 50 copywriting books out there. A TON of knowledge, not to mention thousands of sales letters and sales copy I’ve gone through. I can now write copy with my eyes closed and drive a flood of customers to almost anyone. BUT that doesn’t mean I’ll make the most money out of anyone.

It’s just a high leverage skill… I can always find people who will pay me $200+/hr to write them some copy. Good luck finding anyone to pay you $200/hr for programming.

Now, a high leverage skill isn’t the way to get rich. The way to get rich is a high leverage SYSTEM. And that system will include a multitude of components, copywriting being just one of them.
 
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Joker_P5R

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To add to my previous points, if your real passion in life is to make money, getting started in direct response copywriting and/or sales is ideal. You enjoy seeing the money come in, so it’s the most natural place for you to be in. Just like how some guys are naturally attracted to sitting in front of a computer and solving a complex problem with software and coding. I’d say if money is your passion, go into copywriting if you’re an introvert and into sales if you’re an extrovert. No better starting point.

One thing I’ve learned this year is that you should not fight your natural inclinations. It is a mistake to do so. You’re looking for the ideal business for YOU, not for anyone else. There is no universal ideal.

Having said that, copywriting by itself is a higher leverage skill than programming. As a copywriter you’ll be able to earn more simply because you’re closer to generating more sales. Now, if your goal isn’t to become a guru, consultant, pro copywriter, or agency owner it’s probably not wise to invest an enormous amount of time learning how to write copy. You’re better off focusing on what YOU want to do, and then learning copy as you need it for your specific purposes. In the next year, I’ll be finishing the remaining 7 books of all the top 50 copywriting books out there. A TON of knowledge, not to mention thousands of sales letters and sales copy I’ve gone through. I can now write copy with my eyes closed and drive a flood of customers to almost anyone. BUT that doesn’t mean I’ll make the most money out of anyone.

It’s just a high leverage skill… I can always find people who will pay me $200+/hr to write them some copy. Good luck finding anyone to pay you $200/hr for programming.

Now, a high leverage skill isn’t the way to get rich. The way to get rich is a high leverage SYSTEM. And that system will include a multitude of components, copywriting being just one of them.
hI @Black_Dragon43

You are right, but I think only partially.
Copywriting is becoming too many popular and the entry treshold is dropping: today, everyone can claim to be a copywriting expert. If you surf around social media, websites, forums... It's full of wanna-be or self-declared experts in copywriting.

Not a day goes by the birth where a new 20-years old that wants to share his "secret formula for success in marketing and copywriting".

According to MJ principles, coding and programming have an higher threshold because the majority of the people don't want to pass time in front of a monitor trying and failing in coding.

In the world of "image" and "everything at once" it's far more faster and easier to buy a 45$ theme and build a wordpress site in 2 days. The urgency is to launch someting, to be seen urgently. Because the guru's idioma is "first one arrived, the better".

I LOVE copywriting, I LOVE writing, and I'm working on a writing software.
But, let's face it: every blog, every book, every material that talks about marketing is ALWAYS THE SAME SOUP written with different sentences.

There are TONS of copywriting books: everyone talks about USP, positioning, to be specific, to be unique and so on... that sucks by now.
There is no more credibility because even the 16-year-old boy can profess himself a genius of copywriting by opening a free wordpress blog.

The inconvenient truth is one:
WE ARE ALL INFLUENCED BY THE SPEED OF THE NEW SOCIAL WORLD AND WE NEED TO HURRY TO CREATE SOMETHING OF OUR OWN AND ACHIEVE SUCCESS.
AND IT IS FASTER TO "BE" A COPYWRITER (OR AT LEAST DECLARE ONESELF SO) THAN TO STAY IN THE SHADOWS FOR HOURS AND HOURS PROGRAMMING A WEBSITE OR SOFTWARE.

I hope to get your comment...
 

Black_Dragon43

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Copywriting is becoming too many popular and the entry treshold is dropping: today, everyone can claim to be a copywriting expert. If you surf around social media, websites, forums... It's full of wanna-be or self-declared experts in copywriting.

Not a day goes by the birth where a new 20-years old that wants to share his "secret formula for success in marketing and copywriting".

According to MJ principles, coding and programming have an higher threshold because the majority of the people don't want to pass time in front of a monitor trying and failing in coding.

In the world of "image" and "everything at once" it's far more faster and easier to buy a 45$ theme and build a wordpress site in 2 days. The urgency is to launch someting, to be seen urgently. Because the guru's idioma is "first one arrived, the better".
So what? Wherever there is money, there will be a lot of hungry people. Just like where there is a big shit, there are a lot of flies swarming around. The shit (and the money) is the reason why there is a rush around there.

Programming is no different.
Copywriting is no different.
Sales is no different.
Startups are no different.

And this is what many newbies don't get.

5% of the people in an industry make all the money.

Why?

Because they have credibility. They've built credibility. They've engineered themselves to look like gods, the exact same way that a politician engineers a certain image and builds a narrative around him. It's no different. If you can make someone President of the US, then you can run any marketing campaign, because the end result is the same.

Skill is less important than credibility. And VALUE is also less important than credibility, and this is where a lot of people will disagree with me.

If Tony Robbins puts a big pile of shit out there - literally... I can bet my a$$ that the fools will eat it up in no time. And not only will they eat it up, they will also say that it's the best thing since sliced bread. Because most people are brainwashed, they're living in the matrix, and believe me, they're not gonna wake up.

Most people who take any self-improvement program, or wealth-building program are BROKE and will remain broke. Most readers of TMF are broke. I can bet my a$$ that they are. Because I've worked for a few big hitters in this industry, and I know the statistics. Put a poll up on this forum and look for people making over $300K profit in a year. You'll see that it's a tiny tiny minority.

Why is that? Is it because the materials don't work? No, it's because people are idiots (not politically correct, but sorry, this is the truth). It's not the guru's responsibility because these people fail... it's THEIR OWN, and this is why they are broke and will continue to be broke, because they never assume responsibility.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFgcqB8-AxE&ab_channel=Kazwire


And better said... people do NOT buy the materials for them to work. They buy the materials to feel good about themselves. And THAT is what the sellers of self-improvement, myself included, understand. It's not that we put material out there that doesn't work. It works. It's just that we know, beforehand, that most of the buyers will not use it as intended and will remain broke.

The barrier to entry for everything is either capital or credibility. And credibility is the source of capital. So in the end, it's ALL credibility, because money is a man-made reality, and men decide who has it and who doesn't. Who decides if I own Microsoft or Bill Gates does (and actually he doesn't really own it either nowadays)? Human beings do. If others recognize Bill as the owner, then he is the owner, as simple as that.

So if it's all credibility, how is credibility engineered? In a lot of ways which are too various for me to describe here. But let me give you an example.


"Billionaire investor Paul Tudor Jones pays Tony Robbins over $1 million a year and emails him every day — here's what they talk about"

If you're an idiot, and you read that headline, here's what you understand:

"OMG Tony must have the real secrets, look, billionaires go to him and that's why they're so rich and I'm F*cking broke hurr hurr, let me go buy PERSONAL POWER!!!"

So that headline, and the media appearance and endorsement, gave Tony MASSIVE credibility, which means that a lot of idiots will go and willingly surrender their cash. And Tony can also go to you and tell you "Hey Joker, see this billionaire?! I worked with him. $10,000 now please" (of course this is an exaggeration, but that's the essence of it)

If you're a marketer, you read that headline and understand that these two guys are working together to make money. I'm not saying that Tony paid Paul Tudor Jones or the other way around. I haven't seen the transactions and neither has the media. Maybe it's really the truth that Paul Tudor Jones pays Tony. Or maybe Tony paid Paul Tudor Jones to endorse him. Who knows... it doesn't matter how the credibility is obtained.

But let's suppose they are actually honest. Why would Paul Tudor Jones pay Tony? Let's be honest here, a billionaire does NOT need a "guru" to show him how to make more money and be more productive and light a fire under his a$$. For F*ck's sake, the guy made billions already without ANY guru. Do you think a stone fell on his head, and suddenly he needs a "guru" to hold his hand?!

Of course not. So what does he need? CONNECTIONS. Tony is well connected. He needs MONEY from people. The more people give him money (in fact, willingly surrender their money to his fund), the more money he makes. And paying Tony $1 million for that is NOTHING.

THAT'S the secret. They are creating credibility for each other, together, and making millions in the process.

What does this have to do with copywriting?

Well, suppose you have the option to work with me as your copywriter, or Jay Abraham. Assuming you can afford either of us, you'd be INSANE to choose me. And not because Jay is better than me. He may be, or he may not, but that's not the reason why you'd choose him over me. You'd choose him over me because his credibility trashes mine.

Let's go to a smaller level. Suppose you're on Upwork looking to hire a copywriter, and I apply and show you how I've made MILLIONS of dollars for my clients, how I have media appearances and published works, and so on, and Lil Billy applies telling you he has the "SecrEtS that WilL MaKe YoU Big MOneYs" and has some five star reviews there. You'd be INSANE to pick Lil Billy over me.

Media appearances, referrals, being surrounded by big hitters, results, testimonials, featured on tv => these are the sources of credibility. And a new copywriter cannot have credibility. It takes process to build that. So most copywriters fail, and make less than $100K in their entire career. And a few make millions.

I'll be honest with you, these days I don't have competition as a copywriter. My only competition whom I can't currently beat are people like Jay Abraham, Dan Kennedy, John Carlton, David Deutsch and so on. The rest aren't my competition, because they simply don't have anywhere near close to my credibility, and they cannot produce that credibility except by working for years (I've been working at this for 10+ years now). The only way they can beat me is by activating in an area where I don't, going after people that I'm not going after. But if they cross my path, they will lose. Just like I'll lose if I cross Jay Abraham's path. And no sales skills will help you when there's a vast difference in credibility.

Same with programmers and all the other professions.

I LOVE copywriting, I LOVE writing, and I'm working on a writing software.
But, let's face it: every blog, every book, every material that talks about marketing is ALWAYS THE SAME SOUP written with different sentences.
Yes. Everything everyone puts out is pretty much the same thing, in the sense that it's always the same principles couched in new external forms, new systems and new ways of delivery. So what? People don't buy it because it's different. They buy it for unconscious, emotional reasons - ie, feeling good about themselves without the pain of the process. And the thing that enables them to get that emotional "value" is the credibility of the product.
 
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Joker_P5R

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I'll be honest with you, these days I don't have competition as a copywriter. My only competition whom I can't currently beat are people like Jay Abraham, Dan Kennedy, John Carlton, David Deutsch and so on. The rest aren't my competition, because they simply don't have anywhere near close to my credibility, and they cannot produce that credibility except by working for years (I've been working at this for 10+ years now). The only way they can beat me is by activating in an area where I don't, going after people that I'm not going after. But if they cross my path, they will lose. Just like I'll lose if I cross Jay Abraham's path.

On this I agree.

But you have to build your own credibility. And to create it you have to work, create results and help people.

You need people to give you the chance to work, to create this credibility, to create results.

Within an overcrowded market niche like copywriting, you need to reach a client who gives you the opportunity to work in the meantime.

Because you can't be self-referenced all the time. There is no point in "Helping other entrepreneurs" by copying and pasting the usual strategies.

It is full of marketers who have made money by teaching others how to make money. They teach you how to run your business. And they don't even have a company, they have opened a tax position and have an annual revenue of 1500k

But they want to teach you how to run your business.... Come on man, It's a crazy thing...
 
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Joker_P5R

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Feb 4, 2020
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Average Joes, especially in high suspicious countries, like Italy for example, must know your value before give their business in your hands.

And if you work for free, people label your work as "unworthy" and they are afraid you ruin their business. It's a loop where you have to demonstrate your value, but nobody is ready to leave their business in your hands if you are not experienced...
 

C NASIR

New Contributor
Nov 28, 2021
2
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I still don't understand why people here want to learn to code!
I actually believe the opposite. every person should learn to code. why do we have to learn to read? why do we have to learn to write? why do we learn math? I believe coding is a powerful skill to have as an entrepreneur, just because something is hard doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, it actually means you should do it because fewer people will do it. Coding is essential if you wanna build a successful tech company, no one really knows if their idea of their app will work or not, so we test it and we perfect it, if you are not a coder you have to hire people to make every single change and that will cost you a fortune when you are iterating weekly or you won't iterate anymore and you fail. but, if you know how to code, you can change the entire underlying architecture of your app in a week and that change may just be what you needed. coding gives you a superpower in tech, it makes you the captain for your own ship, it lets you drive with whatever speed and direction you feel like it. So, if you really wanna build a successful tech company that lasts, you have 3 choices. 1 learn to code and control your destiny, 2 find a technical co-founder, or 3 hire outside developers and rely on luck.
 

Arnav Sharma

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Jan 13, 2020
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and EVERYONE on your list had YEARS of programming experience when they wrote their code. Nobody on the list learned to code their app 3 months ahead of time, then they ALL struggled until they got hooked up with someone that helped them market, either an incubator, VC or marketing partner. I would also highly discount any of your companies over 6 years old, that was the wild west days of the Internet and you could have crappy stuff and people would tolerate it.

BTW Microsoft modified code they bought from someone else, Gates did not write all that code.

For those that are yapping that learning is not stupid but fulfilling, why are you here? This is the FASTLANE forum, if you want to get ahead faster and quicker I am telling you how to save yourself a BUNCH of time and heartache by informing you where to concentrate your time. The odds of anybody over the age of twenty that doesn't know how to code right now, will learn enough code to create a successful app by themselves are huge.

If you want to learn to make money, you focus on the things that make you money, learning to code and writing code is not money making.
I think you saved me. I had started learning programming to develop my own app, but I guess I have to rethink it.
But what I'm worried about is, what if after I share my ideas with some unknown app developer they just simply kick me out of my project?
 
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loop101

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Notable rich programmers:

  • Elon Musk worth $158 Billion (developed Zip2 and X.com)
  • Bill Gates worth $120 Billion (developed Microsoft Windows)
  • Larry Page worth $78.1 Billion (developed Google Search)
  • Sergey Brin worth $63.9 Billion (developed Google Search)
  • Satoshi Nakamoto worth $19.6 Billion
  • Patrick Collison and John Collison with a worth of $3.2 Billion each (developed Stripe)
  • Markus Persson worth $2 Billion (developed Minecraft and Mojang)
  • Rasmus Lerdorf worth $1.4 Billion (developed PHP)
  • Vitalik Buterin worth $500 Million (developed Ethereum)
  • Steve Wozniak worth $100 Million (developed Apple software stack)

 

rodvaN

Coder & Marketer
FASTLANE INSIDER
Speedway Pass
Oct 16, 2020
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Seems like low to no code advancements will speed the process of coding up considerably. It's like web development in the 90s vs today with Shopify or WordPress.

Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Thomas Edison; they're all marketers and salesmen that can dive deep if needed.

It's like trying to learn how to become a doctor when you break your arm instead of just...hiring a doctor! Haha. Coding is just another tool in the toolbelt. As a businessman, it's your job to put these tools to work to build the hypothetical house.

Well, seems like you are forgetting that a trained neural algorithm might be able to write a better sales copy than anybody spending hours learning how to properly make sales copy. We just need to train with all the best sales copies into different niches. Right now its not really well performed, but after we see some advances on quantum computing, everything will be replaced by machines. So I rather know how to program and talk with more intelligent machines. So coding is still important.
 

theguy22

Contributor
Dec 13, 2021
44
31
London, United Kingdom
google guys? coded it themselves.
facebook guys? coded it themselves
ebay guys? coded it themselves
hotmail? coded it themselves
pinterest owners? coded it themselves
microsoft? coded it themselves.
reddit?
slashdot?
yahoo?
paypal?
and the list goes on.

the major owner's wrote the first version/prototypes themselves, before they started hiring programmers.

if you want to make billions upon billions, you better learn to code!
if you are shooting for 6, 7 figures, then programming is stupid.
that's probably more because at that time (90s-early 2000s) only tech guys had tech startup ideas as the internet was a new thing, and it was also not something that was outsourceable has no one really knew how to code. Now that's not so much the case, there's many examples of modern tech companies with non-tech founders
 
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Rabby

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I'm sure I've posted in this thread before (but it's looooong now).

I coded, hosted, and deployed stuff myself, then hired people to make it better. That's where I found success. In the beginning, it was simply because I had no money and programmers cost money. In the reckoning, I'm glad I understand all the parts.

There's nothing wrong with having the skills your business thrives on. It's good! Just don't get sucked into one thing exclusively and neglect all the other things. The lazy or inattentive entrepreneur doesn't know enough about how their business works, and thusly they become blind to its operations.
 

leighxxd8

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Jan 20, 2022
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Ow, Wow! This is absolute Gold. I just wanted to begin learning to Code. I am mind blown right now and my perspective has changed. This is just awesome! Thank you MJ for this forum!!!! wow wow!
 

Eslupmi

New Contributor
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Jan 21, 2022
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I still don't understand why people here want to learn to code!

Spend that time learning to market and write sales copy. Spending 1000 hours to learn to code to spend 200 hours writing an app is STUPID.

Spend the 1000 hours learning to market and write copy, and you can use that skill for the life of the app, plus the life of the next app, and other peoples apps AND it makes you money. Writing code just means you have something, but it won't sell itself.

Here is how it will work if you learn to code:
1000 hours learning to code.
200 hours writing an app.
wait for a sale, wait some more, wait some more.
Spend 1000 hours learning to market and write copy.
sell some of your app
spend 150 hours fixing bugs and responding to support issues because your app is crap because it takes 5000 hours to really learn how to code.
get frustrated and yank your app because of the PITA factor and all the bad reviews of your app.


Learn to market and write copy:
1000 hours learning to market and write code, while that 1000 hours is going on, pay someone that has 10,000 hours of training on apps to write your app.
Start marketing your app immediately.
Sell lots of your app.
Pass any support issues to the developer
Sell lots more of your app.
Create 3 more apps and market the hell out of them
Go to the bank often to deposit checks.

Do you SEE the difference????
Thank you for this perspective. At the moment im a CompSci and BMOS student. Over this past year, I've really considered what im doing with my life, and I see the value in my time invested in the right things now. My education is debt free, so I'll complete it. But I won't waste a second coding some app that I can outsource. Thank you again for your insight.
 
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