Laid off will get $2,400 per month on top of 100% of wages - WTF?

[Rivoli]

Yep. Equal society = better societies.

Just look at Scandinavian nations like Norway, Sweden and Finland and compare it to poop holes likes South Africa, Mexico and America. No offence.

Norway is subsidized by oil dude.

 

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[AFMKelvin]

I'm not necessarily on the left. And I hear what you're saying, but those on the right should NOT support corporate bailouts if they are sooooo anti-government intervention and "socialism".

Otherwise save me the hypocrisy and let's bail out average joe that needs it more than the billion/million dollar corporations that go out of their way to not pay taxes.

Do you have a loicense to post here?

Jokes aside. The reason the government does their best to bail out corporations is because the corporations are part of the national infrastructure and they provide jobs to thousands of people. Imagine a company like Boeing they have been struggling for years now for making faulty airplanes. Obviously there's a flaw somewhere that's causing this airplanes to fail so much. It's easier to find the flaw than to let the company sink. If you let Boeing go down many people will be laid off, it has to go through the legal system to change ownership and whatnot.

Regarding sharing the wealth how would you go about that? You can't share the wealth equally when the money you're producing is not equal to those that don't produce as much.

Also the average Joe is getting bailed out too. The USA government is sending everyone $1200.

 

[Kak]

So you stick by your original assertion that this model would result in the business paying more in taxes than it's earning?

Yes. A thin margin, high volume, business that gets no write offs (informal yet widely accepted use of the phrase) would be screwed badly at any tax rate.

Unless you count zero, which knowing you and your nitpicking, you probably will.

 

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[hellolin]

Businesses try to write everything they can off.... spend $50k taking clients out to fancy dinner at upscale restaurants or the super-bowl.... They find a way to write that off. Just things like that.

I'd basically get rid of all the tax loopholes.... just pay your goddamn 10% ... no write offs on ANYTHING.
What do you mean by anything. I mean ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that corporations can write off today to lower their tax liabilities.


Increase ? From what 0? Most of these giant corporations find creative ways to pay almost NOTHING in corporation tax. I think a 10% tax on all profits (perhaps turnover) is reasonable.

Also private people should not be able to write anything off either (i.e no tax deductibles for paying your mortgage or donating something to a charity).

It might not have such a big impact as you think... things might just cost you 20% more... BUT you don't need to worry about paying $400/month on health care plans, or having to go into debt to send your kids to college. We'd all be better off.

This:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0Z_fODM5gE

How Students In Denmark Get Paid To Go To University

Imagine if you headed to university knowing that not only would you leave with a degree, but that you would be debt-free too. For students in Denmark, this i...

www.youtube.com

Beats this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCCIY0JVeUQ

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHquXGiTRTU


Again, I direct you guys to scandinavian nations - that somehow manage to give FREE health care, free dental, free maternity leave, free k-9 and free college/university/technical college/vocational schooling to its citizens WITHOUT it turning into Venezuela as some of you fear.

In fact many of those nations are doing much better, are way more equal and the people are much happier than in nations where those things don't exists - despite people & corporations having to pay a little bit more in taxes.


False dichotomy. I never said anything about 80% in taxes. I said 10-15% taxes - without write offs / loopholes for corporations or private citizens.

Also, if you are the government and you believe that will work - then you have the right to implement that if your voters want it, but if the system doesn't work then you'll be forced to change things because the voters will demand it or the tax revenues will demand it.

Point is, there's a way to make it work (i.e Scandinavian nations - not that they are perfect). But let's not pretend that America's system is perfect and it can't be improved upon. I'm trying to find ways to improve on it and I was just sharing some of my suggestions based on what I know. Nothing less, nothing more.



I guess I'm a bit of a dreamer.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-ZB2O8azI8

I swear the god if my money ever got taken out to bail those guys out who borrowed money so they can have their dream job of registering voters.....Your dream is not my responsibility, stop punishing those who were wise beyond their years and did the right investment decision at the right time.

 

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[Tourmaline]

@Kak Your point is quite well made regarding companies paying over 100% tax rate. Although the 'discussion' with @JScott was fruitful too.

It's rather interesting to see people wish for drastic changes that would basically make many industries almost entirely inoperable...at least in their current state.

I'm not entirely sure why we even need any corporate tax as it is when an individual's income is already being taxed. I suppose beyond being able to incentivize corps to do things...which perhaps answers the question.

Even more surprising is the seemingly anti-corporation sentiment of many on this forum. It's only one of the biggest wealth vehicles one could own...

Actually what makes this even more off the f'n wall, is that the way it is worded, an employee could actually QUIT to obtain benefits......I hope this is amended quickly before I have to compete with $1050 a week (Texas unemployment avg $450 + fed $600) of "couch money" vs. what they make actually working for me. Interestingly, the Dems came up with $600 per week (40 hours x Their biggest want....$15 an hour).

I don't believe one is eligible for unemployment if they quit? They have to be laid off. Is that not correct?

 

[valuecreator]

Jeez, 3.5K a month? Some people might not want to go back to work...

 

[Saavedra]

Jeez, 3.5K a month? Some people might not want to go back to work...

only when they feel inspired to do the work. which is the point in todays automation driven society. what do we want to work 40h week for. eveyone in this forum wants to work when they want it and how they want it,then recoil in anger when normal workers get to that goal without sacrificing years of their life in entrepreneurship. that is just big money brainwashing, forcing people to be in the job market by having heavily taxed and market skewed prices for basic commodities like housing.

 

[MitchC]

So we should give everyone free everything but money! But not money though! Thats where we draw the line.

Also:



There fixed it for ya.

I really cant tell if this is a troll, but if it's not, I suggest you do your research on these topics. Because it sounds cute when politicians say it and every one cheers in the crowd, but 5 minutes of critical thought would lead you to the conclusion that money and funding has to come from somewhere, and the government isn't some benevolent entity that is selfless, they steal collect that money from you in the form of taxes to fund all this "free" shit.

The government doesn't give a F*ck about you. The government doesn't have your best interests in mind. Politicians only have their own interests in mind.

BIRTH OF A VIRUS …

As I watched my neighbor put her dog’s poop in a single-use plastic baggy, I thought about split pants in China. When my wife and I got off the plane, 18 years ago, to adopt our first daughter, we …

regiehammblog.wordpress.com

You can ignore the parts about corona virus, but the message about the Chinese vs the US healthcare system is still relevant.

Not really sure what your point is with that article but if that guy thought having the opportunity to almost bankrupt himself because his daughter had a seizure was amazing because the hospital was clean and he could get a second opinion and a skilled surgeon, wait till he finds out we get all of that and more in aus, nz and probably most of Europe, without going bankrupt.

You guys in the USA honestly have no idea how F*cked your healthcare system is.

Have a look at how much of govt tax money in those countries goes on healthcare, it’s really not as expensive as you think because the govt owns the hospitals and doesn’t charge itself $1200 for 2 Panadol.

Want to know the best part? You can still get private health insurance and use private hospitals if you want to. Oh and the government will refund you the % of your tax that was for healthcare if you do. If your income is high, making that number of tax high, it becomes cheaper to get private health insurance.

I love atlas shrugged and believe the world should be run like the gulch or whatever it’s called but yeah, we have it pretty F*cking good in Australia.

I don’t know how you guys live knowing you’re one accident away from going bankrupt. How could you possibly think paying $600 a month for health insurance is better than paying about $1000 a year in aus or a bit more tax if you have a low income.

I go to the doctor all the time I don’t even think about it it costs basically nothing. I got tested the other week for corona virus because I had a bit of a sore throat and a cough and paid nothing. You guys have people who can’t afford to get tested and treated during a pandemic what the F*ck man that affects everyone not just the poor people who can’t afford it.

 

[EVMaso]

 

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[spreng]

Not sure if anyone was watching this, but the stimulus bill the Senate just passed last night for the Coronavirus included a provision that unemployment filers will get their full pay PLUS $600 a WEEK.

Thats right. They will be making $2,400 a month PLUS unemployment. If you live in a federal min wage state, a full time unemployed min wage worker will be raking in $22 an hour or $3,500 a month, for 4 months.

Coronavirus bill will create 'devastating' incentive to lay off employees, critics say

New coronavirus relief legislation would greatly expand benefits for unemployed workers, and extend payments to previously ineligible groups like gig workers.

www.cnbc.com

dang people who get laid off are going to start making more then me when I dont sell anything because the market is so trash

 

[100k]

I’m still confused as to what a write off is.

I certainly don’t count expenses or COGS as a write off? I also don’t know what @100k meant in his original statement about businesses shouldn’t be in business if they can’t write off stuff.

View: https://youtu.be/rCZRqH7sRyA

Businesses try to write everything they can off.... spend $50k taking clients out to fancy dinner at upscale restaurants or the super-bowl.... They find a way to write that off. Just things like that.

I'd basically get rid of all the tax loopholes.... just pay your goddamn 10% ... no write offs on ANYTHING.
What do you mean by anything. I mean ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that corporations can write off today to lower their tax liabilities.

So, we increase taxes on corporations with the necessary result being inflation for consumers?

Uh...who exactly benefits from this so-called "solution?"

Increase ? From what 0? Most of these giant corporations find creative ways to pay almost NOTHING in corporation tax. I think a 10% tax on all profits (perhaps turnover) is reasonable.

Also private people should not be able to write anything off either (i.e no tax deductibles for paying your mortgage or donating something to a charity).

It might not have such a big impact as you think... things might just cost you 20% more... BUT you don't need to worry about paying $400/month on health care plans, or having to go into debt to send your kids to college. We'd all be better off.

This:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0Z_fODM5gE

How Students In Denmark Get Paid To Go To University

Imagine if you headed to university knowing that not only would you leave with a degree, but that you would be debt-free too. For students in Denmark, this i...

www.youtube.com

Beats this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCCIY0JVeUQ

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHquXGiTRTU


Again, I direct you guys to scandinavian nations - that somehow manage to give FREE health care, free dental, free maternity leave, free k-9 and free college/university/technical college/vocational schooling to its citizens WITHOUT it turning into Venezuela as some of you fear.

In fact many of those nations are doing much better, are way more equal and the people are much happier than in nations where those things don't exists - despite people & corporations having to pay a little bit more in taxes.

I am the government, and I say that business taxes need to be 80% so that we can have universal basic income? I also mandate a minimum wage for your employees, regardless of what they do or what you make. Oh whats that, you can't operate a business profitably with those requirements? Well we are the government so we need it anyways, go start something that you can be profitable with.

False dichotomy. I never said anything about 80% in taxes. I said 10-15% taxes - without write offs / loopholes for corporations or private citizens.

Also, if you are the government and you believe that will work - then you have the right to implement that if your voters want it, but if the system doesn't work then you'll be forced to change things because the voters will demand it or the tax revenues will demand it.

Point is, there's a way to make it work (i.e Scandinavian nations - not that they are perfect). But let's not pretend that America's system is perfect and it can't be improved upon. I'm trying to find ways to improve on it and I was just sharing some of my suggestions based on what I know. Nothing less, nothing more.

View attachment 31594

I guess I'm a bit of a dreamer.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-ZB2O8azI8

 

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[Dignium]

There fixed it for ya.

... I suggest you do your research on these topics. Because it sounds cute when politicians say it and every one cheers in the crowd, but 5 minutes of critical thought would lead you to the conclusion that money and funding has to come from somewhere

Where is the value going to come from? Money is a function of the result of value, which the value (V) today is backed by hours of labor (T) (When you buy a product in a store, that's still spending value to save time in some way some how).

If it is to be considered unethical to dilute other peoples value (printing money without creating value to match) and to take a percentage of someone elses production or results of production (taxing income or assets), no matter how small the percentage is. Where is the value going to come from? Where can value come from without sucking value from someone or an unwilling organization (whether that organization be a class of people, group of businesses, groups of people in other countries).

The value has to come from somewhere. Ask yourself 100k, Where can value reliably and ethically be produced to transfer the value to individuals you would like to see have access to consume that value without having to produce that value for themselves First. Come up with a way for value to come from virgin value and not recycled or siphoned value. I think we have a great book that we talk about on this forum that detailes a stellar way to create virgin value.

100k, if you want the 'rationally equal access to oppourtunity society' you envision; you're going to need a source of value that is something other than an extortion process.

If the Scandinavian model is so good and the best system to assure the greatest percentage of whole, healthy people as many seem to imply it is - why isn't the Scandanavian model the #1 most used system of governance, like capitalism is the #1 most used system of mutualism?

I am not intending to light a political debate. This thread is discussing philiosophy, or at least I interpret this thread as discussing philiosophy. I am bringing up these questions because someone is saying this Scandinavian model to be a better way to civilization and pointing to anecdotal evidence where it's truthfullness is an unknown quantity. If I am doing something wrong please let me know, I can't fix it if I don't know it exists.

And for me; when I think of the Scandinavian governance model, What I keep wondering is. Is. If their system is sooo much better, why aren't they a global superpower for self-actualization, the reason we are all here.

 

[PizzaOnTheRoof]

Ah neoliberalism at its finest. F*ck the individual, keep the company going at all costs.

Not saying it’s right, I’m saying that that’s what happens.

I’m the government and I have $1 billion in stimulus to give out. I can give it to a company that employs 100k people, or I can give a check of $10k to 100k unemployed people.

That’ll last a family of four what, 6 months?

And after those 6 months you have 100k unemployed people, no company, and no production.

What about the companies suppliers who’s biggest client just went under?

and the water ripples outward...

I think the problem most people have with bailouts is when assholes take it as a bonus or salary bump, which I think this stimulus bill tries to protect against.

 

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[ksee]

Not sure if anyone was watching this, but the stimulus bill the Senate just passed last night for the Coronavirus included a provision that unemployment filers will get their full pay PLUS $600 a WEEK.

Thats right. They will be making $2,400 a month PLUS unemployment. If you live in a federal min wage state, a full time unemployed min wage worker will be raking in $22 an hour or $3,500 a month, for 4 months.

Coronavirus bill will create 'devastating' incentive to lay off employees, critics say

New coronavirus relief legislation would greatly expand benefits for unemployed workers, and extend payments to previously ineligible groups like gig workers.

www.cnbc.com

Actually what makes this even more off the f'n wall, is that the way it is worded, an employee could actually QUIT to obtain benefits......I hope this is amended quickly before I have to compete with $1050 a week (Texas unemployment avg $450 + fed $600) of "couch money" vs. what they make actually working for me. Interestingly, the Dems came up with $600 per week (40 hours x Their biggest want....$15 an hour).

 

[Faithlaine]

Not really sure what your point is with that article but if that guy thought having the opportunity to almost bankrupt himself because his daughter had a seizure was amazing because the hospital was clean and he could get a second opinion and a skilled surgeon, wait till he finds out we get all of that and more in aus, nz and probably most of Europe, without going bankrupt.

You guys in the USA honestly have no idea how F*cked your healthcare system is.

Have a look at how much of govt tax money in those countries goes on healthcare, it’s really not as expensive as you think because the govt owns the hospitals and doesn’t charge itself $1200 for 2 Panadol.

Want to know the best part? You can still get private health insurance and use private hospitals if you want to. Oh and the government will refund you the % of your tax that was for healthcare if you do. If your income is high, making that number of tax high, it becomes cheaper to get private health insurance.

I love atlas shrugged and believe the world should be run like the gulch or whatever it’s called but yeah, we have it pretty F*cking good in Australia.

I don’t know how you guys live knowing you’re one accident away from going bankrupt. How could you possibly think paying $600 a month for health insurance is better than paying about $1000 a year in aus or a bit more tax if you have a low income.

I go to the doctor all the time I don’t even think about it it costs basically nothing. I got tested the other week for corona virus because I had a bit of a sore throat and a cough and paid nothing. You guys have people who can’t afford to get tested and treated during a pandemic what the F*ck man that affects everyone not just the poor people who can’t afford it.

They have no idea, they have been brainwashed since kindergarten. Don't try.

 

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[Rivoli]

I think they mean full unemployment pay, which is not equal to their regular pay. Unemployment payments are a percentage of their previous salary.

Read it. $600 per week ONTOP of full unemployment pay

 

[Kid]

Trump make himself look like hero - ok.
People are helped in crisis - ok.
Printing $2 trillion - not ok.*

*Question to more knowledgeable: do they print it or get it from somewhere else?

 

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[MoneyDoc]

Why use taxpayers money bailout corporations and go to war, but not help out its citizens when they need it?!

Because the majority of taxpayers income are coming from these corporations.

 

[PizzaOnTheRoof]

Because the majority of taxpayers income are coming from these corporations.

Correct. It’s much easier (and less expensive) to keep a Corp above water than pay the salaries of each employee, and then just lose the Corp anyway.

 

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[100k]

Regarding sharing the wealth how would you go about that? You can't share the wealth equally when the money you're producing is not equal to those that don't produce as much.

Free k-9 education, free college, free vocational/technical studies, free health care or HEAVILY subsidized health care.

I don't mean that people should get free money for doing nothing. But if you have safety nets and schooling is free to everyone, then society becomes more equal - you get out what you put in.

I'd also consider giving anyone that studied business (for 12 months) to be able to get a $10k grant to start a business.

I'd get rid of tax write offs for corporations - but set the business tax rate at like 10% or 15% for example... NO EXEMPTIONS, no write offs. And use the money that generated to fund those things. Also stop going to war and perhaps nationalize some of the resources in the land. Why should corporations be given land rights and mineral rights. Take a look at Appalachian mountains... they exploited those people, created an insane amount of wealth, then when they were done with them, the corporations left and all the locals were left with was lung cancer and poverty.

I think certain industries / sectors (like oil and minerals for example) should have 50% of the wealth owned by the government i.e the people - like Norway.

Though I DO LOVE capitalism. Not gonna lie

 

[AFMKelvin]

But, that's not the way capitalism works...

In a capitalist structure, if Boeing can't figure out how to stay solvent, the government lets them fail, the company sells off its assets to recoup as much as it can for shareholders, another person/company comes in and pays market value for those assets (potentially pennies on the dollar) and does their best to structure the company in a way that it *can* be profitable.

If they fail, that process repeats. And it continues to repeat until someone has the ability to run the company profitably, or until everyone realizes that the company can't be run profitably, and no one is willing to try any longer. Which will typically only happen if the demand for the company's product doesn't warrant the cost designing, manufacturing and selling.

Sadly, we don't have capitalism in the US -- we have crony capitalism. That's a structure where if a company fails, but has the ability to benefit those in government who can bail it out, it will be bailed out. And it will continue to be bailed out for as long as the company can provide personal value to those bailing it out.

When you're dealing with mega corporations like Boeing they are so intertwined with the government that it's almost a government agency. They've been making military airplanes and even the presidential airplane for ever. I highly doubt the US government wants to let them fall and have to update all the paper work, regulations, red tape and bureaucracy of a new entity. People worry so much about what is capitalist, communist or socialist. Yet the government doesn't really care. As long as they keep the money coming in for the Federal Reserve they don't care what system they use.

 

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[100k]

That's actually not right either...

For every $1B that Walmart makes, about $760M is COGS. (Gross margins for Walmart are right about 24%.)

Of the remaining, $260M in gross profit, about $197M is expenses, and $63M is EBITDA. (Operating margins for Walmart are about 6.3%.)

So, assuming no expense write-offs and a 10% tax on gross profits, Walmart would pay about $26M in taxes, which would be about 41% of EBITDA.

That's a bit higher than the corporate tax rate prior to the 2017 Jobs Act (which was 35%), and about double what it is today, with the Jobs Act in place (now at 21%).

If you can't operate a business profitably without write offs, then you'll just have to close shop and start another type of venture... The market will correct it self.

If people REALLY value food, then they'll pay a little bit extra if that's the only way supermarkets can operate profitably.

 

[Rivoli]

Businesses try to write everything they can off.... spend $50k taking clients out to fancy dinner at upscale restaurants or the super-bowl.... They find a way to write that off. Just things like that.

I'd basically get rid of all the tax loopholes.... just pay your goddamn 10% ... no write offs on ANYTHING.
What do you mean by anything. I mean ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that corporations can write off today to lower their tax liabilities.


Increase ? From what 0? Most of these giant corporations find creative ways to pay almost NOTHING in corporation tax. I think a 10% tax on all profits (perhaps turnover) is reasonable.

Also private people should not be able to write anything off either (i.e no tax deductibles for paying your mortgage or donating something to a charity).

It might not have such a big impact as you think... things might just cost you 20% more... BUT you don't need to worry about paying $400/month on health care plans, or having to go into debt to send your kids to college. We'd all be better off.

This:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0Z_fODM5gE

How Students In Denmark Get Paid To Go To University

Imagine if you headed to university knowing that not only would you leave with a degree, but that you would be debt-free too. For students in Denmark, this i...

www.youtube.com

Beats this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCCIY0JVeUQ

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHquXGiTRTU


Again, I direct you guys to scandinavian nations - that somehow manage to give FREE health care, free dental, free maternity leave, free k-9 and free college/university/technical college/vocational schooling to its citizens WITHOUT it turning into Venezuela as some of you fear.

In fact many of those nations are doing much better, are way more equal and the people are much happier than in nations where those things don't exists - despite people & corporations having to pay a little bit more in taxes.


False dichotomy. I never said anything about 80% in taxes. I said 10-15% taxes - without write offs / loopholes for corporations or private citizens.

Also, if you are the government and you believe that will work - then you have the right to implement that if your voters want it, but if the system doesn't work then you'll be forced to change things because the voters will demand it or the tax revenues will demand it.

Point is, there's a way to make it work (i.e Scandinavian nations - not that they are perfect). But let's not pretend that America's system is perfect and it can't be improved upon. I'm trying to find ways to improve on it and I was just sharing some of my suggestions based on what I know. Nothing less, nothing more.



I guess I'm a bit of a dreamer.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-ZB2O8azI8

Nah I don’t like big government. Just roads, police and firefighters. ill do the rest on my own

 

[Roli]

Correct. It’s much easier (and less expensive) to keep a Corp above water than pay the salaries of each employee, and then just lose the Corp anyway.

Ah neoliberalism at its finest. F*ck the individual, keep the company going at all costs.

 

[Roli]

That’ll last a family of four what, 6 months?

And after those 6 months you have 100k unemployed people, no company, and no production.

...or they are secure in that 6 months, and use that time to find new jobs without worrying that they are about to lose their homes.

Because let's face it, those companies that are bailed out are still going to have mass layoffs.

 

[PizzaOnTheRoof]

...or they are secure in that 6 months, and use that time to find new jobs without worrying that they are about to lose their homes.

Because let's face it, those companies that are bailed out are still going to have mass layoffs.

Finding new jobs during a pandemic and recession?

6 months is extremely optimistic.

 

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[Mattie]

Not sure if anyone was watching this, but the stimulus bill the Senate just passed last night for the Coronavirus included a provision that unemployment filers will get their full pay PLUS $600 a WEEK.

Thats right. They will be making $2,400 a month PLUS unemployment. If you live in a federal min wage state, a full time unemployed min wage worker will be raking in $22 an hour or $3,500 a month, for 4 months.

Coronavirus bill will create 'devastating' incentive to lay off employees, critics say

New coronavirus relief legislation would greatly expand benefits for unemployed workers, and extend payments to previously ineligible groups like gig workers.

www.cnbc.com

Think it kind of is for show and tell. Make the people think you're helping them. In a few months they will stop with all the help. And those who thought they'd live off the system will probably crash and burn because they don't understand how the system works. Ouch! Painful ! Since usually Human Services is cut in grants normally. And social issues and social problems are not really adressed typically. We have a big portion of the population spreading the Virus because of Student Loan Debt, inadequate wages, inadequate housing, and it wasn't important to adress these issues since before my Internship in 2006. They're cut grants every year to help the people. And not a priority. Funraisers, donations from local wealth, have been supporting non-profits, organizations, agencies. They were already struggling in 2008. Some of them have already collapsed. Why because there is no profit in it for people. And of course, when you have a Pandemic now, with millions on the street, of very well educated individuals with PH.D's even, full time jobs, and living in hotels, well that $2,400 dollars will pay for hotel expenses maybe for a week.